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ASUS cards: Now with 'cheat' button!
July 19th 2000, 22:10 CEST by Istari

Today Riva Station reported that ASUS plans to add a special set of features to their next driver releases for the AGP-V7700 and AGP-V7100 series graphics cards. The technology called 3D SeeThrough [TM] would allow players to cheat by making walls invisible among other things.



Here is a quote from the press release:
"Taiwan, Taipei July 18, 2000: ASUSTeK Computer, Inc. announces its new secrete (sic!) weapon for AGP-V7700 and AGP-V7100 series graphics cards the 3D SeeThrough TM technologies. "ASUS always provides the best value for our customers." said Jonathan Tsang, vice president of marketing and sales division of ASUSTeK Computer Inc. "The ASUS 3D SeeThrough TM technologies are developed for users to be a constant winner in the adventure or action 3D games. There are three special weapons for ASUS VGA cardsí users Transparent View, Wireframe View, and Extra Light. If you do not have an ASUS VGA card be careful! Never compete in the 3D games with anyone who has an ASUS VGA card. Because the only result is to loose (sic!)."

According to Riva Station the source of the press release is ASUS Germany. RS also claims to have a pre-release version of the drivers and have posted screenshots of Voyager:Elite Force demonstrating the new features. The press release does not yet appear any on any ASUS website and ASUS Germany has not yet answered requests for verification, so treat this with some scepticism.

A while ago Wicked announced similar features but quickly retreated after the reception among gamers was less than enthusiastic.

So assuming ASUS proceed as planned, could this mean the end of online gaming as we know it? Or is it just another way to cheat among thousands of others?

Update: According to Riva 3D ASUS has confirmed that they "have been exploring" transparency features and that the decision to release them has not yet been made. They also said that:

"ASUS may pursue working with developers to ensure that this feature is detectable so that online tournaments, etc., are not affected in any way."

The interesting part is that this totally contradicts the press release that Riva Station got, in which they specifically advertised this as way to win online games.

C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: ASUS cards: Now with 'cheat' button!

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#1 by "BuccAneeR"
2000-07-19 22:05:09
michael@stoissberg.de http://www.stoissberg.de
Yes, I made it. Eat my dust, I'm first this time.

ASUS is making a big step in the wrong direction in my opinion. It's just a big PR action trying to push their products. I hope the players will boycott their cards as long as they are developing this new 'tool' or whatever it will be.
#2 by "bagofmice"
2000-07-19 22:22:45
rcastle@microsoft.com
Well, Advertising the ability to cheat is lame.
#3 by "Dethstryk"
2000-07-19 22:23:04
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
This isn't going to last. The same fate that happened to Wicked will apply here.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#4 by "Diseased"
2000-07-19 22:26:36
diseasedanimal@yahoo.com
I hope you're right.  Marketting products on cheating is lower than low.  The sick thing is, it just might work.  Just take a look at the amount of cheating that goes on in just about any FPS and you'll see that there's a market for it.
#5 by "Frij"
2000-07-19 22:28:12
I dunno.. if I were a successfull game manufacturer, perhaps I'd just cripple the game on their hardware.

Frij
#6 by "Dethstryk"
2000-07-19 22:29:21
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Diseased wrote in post #4:</b>
<quote>Just take a look at the amount of cheating that goes on in just about any FPS and you'll see that there's a market for it.</quote>
I really think that when it comes to multiplayer gaming, the majority is against cheating. The only reason it seems bigger is because cheaters make big waves since they have such an impact. That's my take on it, anyway.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#7 by "Morn"
2000-07-19 22:29:42
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Another interesting aspect: what if a graphics card driver -- of any card -- is released as Open Source. Wouldn't that allow smart programmers to easily write their own "cheating" versions?

Maybe the same thing that has happened to music is going to happen to online gaming... "nothing can escape technology".

Hrm.

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#8 by "G-Man"
2000-07-19 22:33:33
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
I'm skeptical, since the only wireframe shots shown are from Quake 3 based games, and Quake 3 has a built in wireframe mode (r_showtris). The rest of the screenshots just look very poorly edited.

Otherwise I'm all for such a product being released.

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#9 by "Dethstryk"
2000-07-19 22:35:18
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Morn wrote in post #7:</b>
<quote>Maybe the same thing that has happened to music is going to happen to online gaming... "nothing can escape technology". </quote>
If anything, we'll see a battle of technology. Someone might come up with drivers that will let people cheat, but someone will come up with some kind of technology to combat that.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#10 by "crash"
2000-07-19 22:36:07
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
bagofmice (#2):
<i>Well, Advertising the ability to cheat is lame.</i>

yeah, i myself can't imagine a company putting out <a href="http://www.gameshark.com/" target="_blank">a product for lots of  platforms</a> that would encourage cheating.

and yeah, i can't imagine anyone--and certainly not people like <a href="http://www.sybexgames.com/computergames_ab.shtml" target="_blank">these guys</a> or, you know, <a href="http://www.primagames.com/guides/" target="_blank">these guys</a>, or even <a href="http://www.bradygames.com/" target="_blank">these guys</a>--publishing strategy guides with cheat codes and cheating tips. can't imagine why those would be popular or even necessary, and we certainly wouldn't need <i>three</i> companies doing it, even if there were demand.

theoretically.

:)

<i>#include disclaimer.h</i><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#11 by "Kevin"
2000-07-19 22:37:42
Andy,

Did you contact ASUS with their input on this topic before posting?  Just curious to hear ASUS's side of this story...
#12 by "Diseased"
2000-07-19 22:38:54
diseasedanimal@yahoo.com
I wouldn't doubt that Deth.  But there still is a substantial market for stuff that will let you cheat all the same.  They are in the vast minority but that's only because locating and implementing cheats is usually too much of a challenge for the mental midget/ prepubescent audience they appeal to.  

Whenever cheats become widely available and easy to implement for just about any game, it becomes rampant.  That's not to say the majority of players use them, or even close.  But there still is a very large number of people that do.
#13 by "Kevin"
2000-07-19 22:39:12
Oops, I see now that Istari wrote up this topic.  So, my question in #11 is directed towards Istari.

- Kevin
#14 by "Morn"
2000-07-19 22:44:46
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#9</b> "Dethstryk" wrote...
<QUOTE>If anything, we'll see a battle of technology. Someone might come up with
drivers that will let people cheat, but someone will come up with some kind of
technology to combat that.</QUOTE>

Until the battling technologies settle their differences, unite, and attack mankind. And soon we will be enslaved by a bunch of ill-behaved graphics drivers.

:-)

Sorry, couldn't resist. Seriously though -- interesting thought, really. The question is, how can you battle a "see-thru driver"?

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#15 by "Istari"
2000-07-19 22:49:37
istari@planetcrap.com
Kevin:

As mentioned (paragraph 3) ASUS was contacted but they have not yet replied. When/If they do so I will update the topic.

- Istari
#16 by "Jan Michael"
2000-07-19 22:51:53
JanM@localaccess.com
Make the level see through!

duh

then when playing in see through using the see through cheat, all you'd see is um...  black! yeah black!



JM<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "Jan Michael"
2000-07-19 22:52:56
JanM@localaccess.com
oops forgot the =) on the end of that last message hehe

=)

JM<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#18 by "Mark"
2000-07-19 22:56:38
mengley@hotmail.com
Dammit, I played CS for a bit, and it just shows how cheating ruins stuff.  I mean look at diablo (one).

But Im with some of you who said advertising this is low.  I wonder if any developer would dare cripple a game on a given driver, just as a protest.  They would be forced to change, but the developer would have just screwed it up for loads of peeps who dont cheat.
#19 by "Dethstryk"
2000-07-19 22:59:57
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Morn wrote in post #14:</b>
<quote>Sorry, couldn't resist. Seriously though -- interesting thought, really. The question is, how can you battle a "see-thru driver"? </quote>
I'm sure there is a way. You can fight other cheats, why not this one?


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#20 by "crash"
2000-07-19 23:03:51
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Morn (#14):
<i>The question is, how can you battle a "see-thru driver"?</i>

simple: flag the models--players, weps, doors, etc--to have the same characteristics. no good having see-through walls when it makes the players invisible with the same procedure.

those that don't cheat get to play the game as designed, with everything in view. those that cheat get to see... well, nothing. :)

<i>#include disclaimer.h</i><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#21 by "WooJin Lee"
2000-07-19 23:06:16
woojin@rpgfan.com http://www.rpgfan.com
Like making yourself see through? :P
#22 by "Jan Michael"
2000-07-19 23:08:44
JanM@localaccess.com
hey so i wasn't too far off the mark? whoa

this might be of some signifigance to 3drealms.. anyone from that camp have anything to offer about an upcoming game's protection against this sort of thing?

JM<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#23 by "Desiato"
2000-07-19 23:09:44
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
I want to see screenshots before I open my mouth about something that no one has seen yet.

Or this could explain why there are a shitload of german players on UT Last Man Standing servers :)

Hmmm

I want proof. Now.

Desiato
#24 by "Desiato"
2000-07-19 23:33:42
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
Oh crap -- its bad... here's a link to the screenshots I was bitching about seeing...

http://www.rivastation.com/index_e.htm

This sucks.


Desiato
#25 by "Doom Trooper"
2000-07-19 23:39:48
doomtrooper@planetquake.com http://www.planetquake.com/futurewars
uh, crash, most of those published 'cheat' codes and guides are for singleplayer games... I don't recall any Prima strategy guides that have cheat codes in them that let you screw over other people.
#26 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-07-19 23:41:45
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Keep in mind too that most games will not draw stuff it doesn't think the player can see ... so even if a monster is behind a pillar drawn in wireframe, if the game doesn't think the player can see the monster, it won't bother drawing it.  Which may negate a lot of the negative effects of this ...

Of course, some cheating will be possible, but it's not like the entire level will suddenly appear before your eyes.  The card can only render what is sent to it.  If the game determines that something isn't visible, it still won't be on the screen ...
#27 by "PainKilleR-[CE]"
2000-07-19 23:43:19
painkiller@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com/tftech/
#5:<quote>I dunno.. if I were a successfull game manufacturer, perhaps I'd just cripple the game on their hardware. </quote>

You do realize the card they're talking about doing this on is a GeForce 2 GTS card, right? Maybe I should add that it's a fairly close to reference (if not straight reference) board that's already been released (at least one of the two cards mentioned in the Riva Station article has been). In order to 'cripple the game on their hardware', you'd have to cut out support for all nVidia chipsets. It's more than likely that something like this can be done on any 3d hardware, it's a simple matter of changing the texture applications. The only one that seemed to really need a specific setup was the light function, which sets up an extra light in real time that you can control, which may or may not need specific hardware functions, or perhaps all of these are applying nVidia's Hardware T&L functions...

Oh, and as a side note, the wireframe stuff is pretty similar to what happens to Blood 2 on my computer before it crashes, and that's not even a feature ;)

-PainKilleR-[CE]
#28 by "PainKilleR-[CE]"
2000-07-19 23:55:14
painkiller@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com/tftech/
#20:<quote>simple: flag the models--players, weps, doors, etc--to have the same characteristics. no good having see-through walls when it makes the players invisible with the same procedure. </quote>

Really? What if it simply makes a specific texture translucent (like the recent see-through-walls half-life cheats and the old QuakeWorld map hacks) in the T&L portion of the nVidia hardware on the card? Since most of your characters aren't using the same textures as the walls, that should still make the players quite visible. AFAIK, most of the games that had these problems solved them by checking the wad and bsp files to make sure they were the originals, but something like this would bypass most of that by changing the textures on the video card.

-PainKilleR-[CE]
#29 by "crash"
2000-07-19 23:58:20
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
PainKilleR:

since i don't know how the hell it works, i can only offer suggestions in generalities. point me to the white sheet, and help me understand how it works, and i can suggest more specific fixes. :)

<i>#insert disclaimer.h</i><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "superion"
2000-07-20 00:19:49
would i be naughty if i posted a url to obtain such devices?
#31 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-07-20 00:21:36
Guys...you can't just flag models "no see through" or something.  What the card will probably do is disable the Z-buffer in certain situations so you get some weird looking frame where the monsters that would normally be Z-buffered out are drawn on top (probably along with a bunch of other crap).

The Unreal Tournament engine still uses a span based occlusion method, so any actor that is 100% occcluded by geometry won't even be sent to the hardware to be drawn.  Clients could probably cheat the Z-Buffer manually now, but it doesn't help much because most of the actors are being culled and never drawn at all.

I see this as a pretty short lived feature...  when triangles get to the hardware there isn't anything that says "this is a character poly" or "this is a wall poly."  Its just a mass of data, usually sorted by texture and state (or in the case of Unreal...just a mass of data   hehe).  Most players will probably take these cards home, turn on "See through walls" and realize what they get is a funky looking improperly depth sorted frame.  Woo hoo.
#32 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-07-20 00:31:45
PainKilleR-[CE]

<QUOTE>
Really? What if it simply makes a specific texture translucent (like the recent see-through-walls half-life cheats and the old QuakeWorld map hacks) in the T&L portion of the nVidia hardware on the card?
</QUOTE>

Visibility calculations aren't done on the card, they are done before the geometry hits the card...  I don't see how this would be anything more than a Z-buffer workaround that would, again, generally only draw actors or entities that were already partially visible.  It might be somewhat effective on game engines with more liberal visibility algorithms, but I can't think of any.  It would also look better than just turning the Z-buffer off.

I don't know alot about the Quake 3 engine, but I doubt it has that much overdraw.  I believe hanging vis data off of the bsp is just as aggressive as span buffering...its just done before hand instead of on the fly (and therefore much more CPU friendly).
#33 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-07-20 00:38:11
3D graphics is not my area of interest, but I did some research and it seems that hanging vis data off of the bsp would give you a bit more overdraw than span-buffering at the advantage of less of a CPU hit.  So with a Quake engine game you might be able to see a character behind a wall.
#34 by "dukope"
2000-07-20 00:38:57
greenmarine:

you don't need sophisticated "should this poly be clear" logic to make this cheat dangerous. just forcing every poly to be partly transparent is enough..

see here:
http://www.rivastation.com/cgi-bin/show/show.pl?188

this may not be a big deal with unreal's span-rendering, but think about the future and T&L.. the card could conceivably have the entire level in memory, and a driver could easily make all polys half clear..

even with q3a tech, which pre-culls players as part of network optimizations, it's still an effective cheat.
#35 by "Whisp"
2000-07-20 00:42:35
whisp_@hotmail.com
Uh, Brandon, you might want to actually look at the screnshots before dismissing this.  It sounds like you have some valid points about what gets rendered (makes sense to me anyway), but it doesn't look like its just screwing with the z-buffer.  When they say see-through walls, they mean it.  The walls are still visible, just transparent, kind of like colored glass.  Here's a link to one of the shots.
<a href="http://www.rivastation.com/cgi-bin/show/show.pl?188">click me</a>

-Whisp
#36 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-07-20 00:42:51
I would still rather have vis-data than span buffering any day.  The CPU drain from spans is fairly significant.  This isn't a slight against the Unreal engine though...the only reason Tim still has spans is a holdover from the software engine days, where you could use your spans that resulted from visibility tests in rasterization.  Now that most developers are disabling or ignoring the Unreal engine software renderer, spans are a hindrance.
#37 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-07-20 00:44:13
piramida@agsm.net http://www.agsm.net
Post <b>#19</b> by Dethstryk:
<QUOTE><i>
I'm sure there is a way. You can fight other cheats, why not this one?
</i></QUOTE>

There's always a way... Release a patch for the game which would detect the video card make, and prohibit the game from running, completely, if it's an ASUS one. So there, go cheat your ass off editing MineSweeper ini file ;)

Btw, I'll give them credit where it's due, ASUS makes high quality motherboards (using one myself with much success). Maybe they should not try to put themselves on video card market with the cheap tricks like this one, instead concentrate on motherboards :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#38 by "brennan"
2000-07-20 00:45:09
scottsyoen@home.com
Wouldn't this be impossible with tile-based rendering?  I can't recall the name of the soon-to-be-released card that uses this, but I hear that many people are seriously looking at tile-based rendering because of the memory bandwidth savings.

Moot point with the current situation, but oh well.  But hey, maybe in the future this particular exploit would be impossible?

-brennan<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#39 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-07-20 00:46:01
Dukope -

Yes, that's what I mean about vis versus spans.  It would not be a very effective cheat in Unreal.  I just see it as a tradeoff either way...
#40 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-20 00:50:04
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
tum te tum

um

Counter Strike, see thru walls hack is doing very nicely still thank you very much.


so if the players arent drawn because the geometry says the cant be seen ....

and yet these cheats can see and hit you ..


makes you think that the players position IS visible thru the wall......


Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#41 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-07-20 00:50:31
Brennan -

A tile based device still has a driver layer that deals with polygons.  A Direct 3D driver supplied by the hardware vendor could still have code to tag certain polys as translucent before rasterization.
#42 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-07-20 00:51:23
Darkseid -

Yes and Counter Strike is vis data based.  It draws all the characters visible from a certain BSP leaf.
#43 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-07-20 00:51:39
hell, in half the UT or Q3 games, if the server is a bit lagged,  the enemies right in front of you will disappear...  then reappear out of nowhere.   Especially if you are coming around a corner or something.    works with doors too.
 

 
:)
#44 by "Smacky The Frog"
2000-07-20 00:52:48
Well, I really don't know anything about rendering or game engines or the like, however the way counter strike works for half-life (one can shoot through most walls) then my guess would be that this new "feature" of the asus cards would render the players on the other side of "shoot-throughable" walls. Wow that would really ruin counter strike! :(
#45 by "fyrewolf"
2000-07-20 00:57:46
<quote>Well, I really don't know anything about rendering or game engines or the like, however the way counter strike works for half-life (one can shoot through most walls) then my guess would be that this new "feature" of the asus cards would render the players on the other side of "shoot-throughable" walls. Wow that would really ruin counter strike! :( </quote>

The client doesn't have to know there's a player on the other site of a wall in order to be able to shoot it.  The server decides whether the player is hit.

f.
#46 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-07-20 01:01:19
Anyway, 3D graphics are not my area.  I really need to learn more, but I've always been more interested in gameplay.
#47 by "Valeyard"
2000-07-20 01:13:12
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
Cheating always has and always will occur...it just seems particularly rampant these days.  We have computer games being played on a professional level for cash prizes, and this topic has and will come up all the time.

I've been absolutely astonished at the ammount of cheating that goes on in the CS community.  Custom "spiked" models, glow in the dark skins and the ghost-recon were always a problem.  Now that Valve made the incredibly BAD decision to move more code to the client side of the game, we've got cheats that prevent the weapons from kicking...keeping the bullets on target all the time.  Not to mention the vastly inferior network performance.

It's absolutely sickening, especially in a game I'm good at and love to play.

Where we once saw "GG CK3", we're now seeing "GG Valve", "GG Netcode" or "GG cheaters".  The accusations are almost as bad as the activity.  Your clan loses?  No problem, they MUST be cheating...they couldn't possibly be better than you.  Just knowing the cheats are out there is killing the sportsmanship and feel of the game.

At one time, I was PROUD when people accused me of cheating.  Knowing that I never have or will cheat, I felt honored that my level of play was SO FAR beyond their comprehension that they felt I had to be cheating.  Now it's just annoying and depressing.

Our clan has played (and won) more official matches than any other.  It's very likely that some of the victories were over clans that were cheating and STILL couldn't get the job done.  It's also possible that a loss or two could have been due to cheating.  That was comforting for a while...but when clans you've known for a long time, clans you've been friendly and open with start suspecting you of cheating...things are looking bad.

We will continue to play, in spite of the problems, because we love this game.  We are actively working with leagues to setup and inforce rules that prohibit all forms of cheating.  Some "undectable" cheats will still get through, but some of those aren't as hard to detect as the offender may think.

Some leagues are now requiring that a league admin be present to spectate the match.  Now all we need is a good spectator mode in CS. *hint hint* :)

-Valeyard
 (for the curious - www.ck3.net  RITD West champions and the best record in the game)  :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "Valeyard"
2000-07-20 01:14:02
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
Sorry for the CS-specific post...but that's my specialty. :)

-Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#49 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-20 01:24:43
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
I get it all the time :\

I learnt to rapid fire the pistols .... usually I can take 5+ kills in the first round...

so I must be cheating .. or have +attack bound to my mouse wheel. Nah, I just learnt how to hold my mouse so the rabid clicking pulls my aim down vs the kick of the gun.

Ive seen so many cheats its not funny, on DE_AZTEC one CT would sit on their side of the rope bridge inside and behind a wall and snipe any T's who came into his 'sights'. I pissed him (a german .. fancy that) off royally by perching on the rope in front of him for several rounds ... he got no kills .. and since I explained what I was doing .... the T's didnt shoot me :) (good sports!!!)

Ive seen people snipe perfect headshots across the map with a desert eagle, one shot one kill ... on targets I cant see... Ive seen people snipe from behind crates ...

I modded beta 6 with the awp laser and warnings on flashbangs (blue flashes round it) .... this was mild cheating .... the flashbangs more to warn me of what idiot team mates were doing.... the laser ... well it gave away wall hack users/ spiked model users something awful.  Now, I dont cheat, dont need to, and I along with my clan regularly rock servers..

cheating doesnt make bad players good, it just lets them get kills, good players will still mangle them in a straight up fight. Its when you get decent or good players cheating ..... well youre with my chain of thought Im sure.

www.cs-professionals.de ... looks like theyve cracked auto head shotting and now have a proxy able to run all kinds of cheats and still fool the CRC check.....


DAMNIT DAMNIT DAMNIT.


Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "[KAG]formerly known as Seth"
2000-07-20 01:33:04
d_k_denz@hotmail.com http://www.aelk.org
anyone seen cheats for UT yet??

P.S.: any clans allowing cheating by their members should be banned by all other clans(neutral observer???) It's no fun playing against cheaters even if (and especially when) you beat'em up good. Cheaters are the lousiest players ever, and people making cheats for online play are even worse. All I invested in my gameplay was an Everglide mousepad and a nice optical mouse, that's it. The day I need more, well, I might as well stop playing.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
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Email Links: [email=some@email.com]Email me[/email], [email]some@email.com[/email]
Simple formatting: Quoted text: [quote]Yadda yadda[/quote]
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