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T O P I C
The Story Thus Far...
May 16th 2004, 01:21 CEST by Percy Kittenz

VALVe revealed Half-Life 2’s multiplayer at E3 in a video presentation!
That’s good.

It turns out that it’s going to be Counter-Strike, the game we were sick of 3+ years ago, ported over to the Source engine without any changes or modifications to gameplay.
That’s bad.

But VALVe also promised to release all the other Half-Life content (Half-Life single player, Team Fortress Classic, Half-Life DM) as updated games powered by the Source engine featuring full physics and recreated assets!
That’s good.

But it might not come with Half-Life 2, even though Gabe said that the updated version of Counter-Strike will be released the same day.
That’s bad.

It might be released in addition to Half-Life 2 as an addition via Steam.
That’s good.

But, knowing VALVe, we’ll still be in for a long wait. Or we’ll have to pay extra for it in some bonus deluxe platinum pack. Or both.
That’s bad.

We’ll probably get confirmation on that soon, though, since the game is now going to be out by this summer. For sure. No doubts about it.
That’s good.

But until then, we’re going to have to put up with hostile speculative debate and unending bickering about how VALVe is either screwing us, pampering us, or a little of both.
… That’s bad.

Discuss.
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#1 by Ryslin
2004-05-16 01:21:23
(waves piece of paper)
And my evil triumphs because good is dumb!

Zang! Who is that, running over the desert! It is Ryslin, hands clutching a bladed baseball bat! And with a spectacular grunt, her voice cometh:

"I'm going to spank you beyond mortal comprehension, then bake cookies!"
#2 by lwf
2004-05-16 01:29:57
Gabe Newell is...

Fear is the dark room where the devil develops his negatives.
#3 by Darkseid-D
2004-05-16 01:36:59
rogerboal@hotmail.com
Correction, "knowing Sierra, we'll probably have to shell out"

Oh wait, they have a seperate publishing deal now, so no, there wont.

There will be multiple version of Half life 2 available, one with single player, one with multiplayer, one with the whole goddamn shebang deal.

As for CS in the Source engine, you -have- seen the movie, right?  the 600mb one thats knocking about on fileplanet.  It wont add huge changes to counter strike, but it will add several things. Primarily a new codebase thats marginally more secure against hacks and bots, physics updates, desctructible cover, potential for ambush items (group of CT's charging you, take out the barrels beside em, boom, problem solved), more flexible animations (hand gestures anyone?), no more same o same o death spin and drops (movie shows one corpse doing an a-team style corpse cartwheel from a grenade).  The level shown, de_aztec is superficially the same level, with improved lighting and new schticks that Source pulls off, splashing water effects, bullets striking up when they hit the water, visible ricocchets, "proper" doors.

It remains to be seen what the performance of the game is like, networking code could be significantly better (although the current networking setup isnt shabby), load times down.

Given that the most popular online fps is Counter Strike (or was, but I dont think anything recent has knocked it off its perch), its a rather wise move.  I have the feeling this is a move by Valve to get something out there, to tide their player base over until Counter Strike 2 is ready, I suspect that we'll see a demo of Team Fortress Classic running on Source in the near future.

Do not go gently into that good night.
Old age should burn and rage at the close of day.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
#4 by UncleJeet
2004-05-16 01:37:34
But until then, we’re going to have to put up with hostile speculative debate and unending bickering about how VALVe is either screwing us, pampering us, or a little of both.
… That’s bad.

Discuss.


Discuss?  Wouldn't that sort of condone the hostile speculative debates and unending bickering?

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#5 by chris
2004-05-16 02:04:05
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Guess what?

Six years later, developers still owe you nothing. They don't owe you innovative multiplayer. They don't owe you free updates of their old games. They don't owe you a release date.

All they will ever owe you is, when you plop down your fifty bucks, a good game to play. Arguably it doesn't even have to be good, it just has to be on par with the rest of the crap that gets released every week.

If Valve releases a solid single-player game in HL2 that even approaches being as fun as HL was, then it will be worth my fifty bucks. If they don't, then no amount of other cockassery will make it worth my fifty bucks. EOD.

And if you've already plopped down your fifty bucks, take it up with EB or whoever, not with Valve. Preordering is a fucking retarded practice, and I'm glad every time it backfires on people.

-chris
#6 by Your Friend
2004-05-16 02:25:21

I have the feeling this is a move by Valve to get something out there


If there is one thing Valve is known for, it is their constant push to "get something out there".

HAHAH. IRISH PEOPLE ARE STUPID!

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#7 by Darkseid-D
2004-05-16 02:41:35
rogerboal@hotmail.com
With a little effort you might even be able to polish that into a semi decent troll.

As it stands, YF null pointes.

Do not go gently into that good night.
Old age should burn and rage at the close of day.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
#8 by Dethstryk
2004-05-16 04:02:38
jemartin@tcainternet.com
The Counter-strike: Source death animations are better because they use the Havok system, Ds.

"hey look at me, i'm DJ Dethstryk, The Square Who Is Not Cool™!  i've never heard of Fringe Band X or Scratch DJ Y!  haw haw haw!"
#9 by Darkseid-D
2004-05-16 04:23:21
rogerboal@hotmail.com
Ie "non pre canned" anims Deth.


Something is very strange, I just saw an advert for Fear Factory: Archetype, a new cd.

To the best of my recollection, FF split in 2001.

Do not go gently into that good night.
Old age should burn and rage at the close of day.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
#10 by McBain
2004-05-16 04:26:16
I thought Fear Factory was a show on NBC with avid FPS player Joe Rogan as the host.

Fighting the war on weapons of mass destruction-related program activity.
#11 by LPMiller
2004-05-16 04:55:02
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
You can go stand in the shame corner with G-Man and Ds.

Patriots don't need grammar or spellings for rid the world and tyranny. - Leslie Nassar, 3/28/2004
#12 by Darkseid-D
2004-05-16 07:11:48
rogerboal@hotmail.com
Now why am I in in the shame corner?

Oh wait, the Incredibles/Impossibles gaffe, gotcha.

Do not go gently into that good night.
Old age should burn and rage at the close of day.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
#13 by Sgt Hulka
2004-05-16 07:17:50
Who's bigger, Peter Jackson, Gabe Newell, Orson Wells or Roger Moore?

Well, Orson is dead, so take him out of there.

Painkeep Arena 3.0 - Download it, you know you want to.
#14 by Darkseid-D
2004-05-16 07:36:55
rogerboal@hotmail.com
I call Shenanigans !

Only two of those named have their own hair !

Do not go gently into that good night.
Old age should burn and rage at the close of day.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
#15 by Eyegore
2004-05-16 07:40:17
http://home.cfl.rr.com/eyegore/gallery.htm
I'm finally going to get to see what this 'counter strike' thing is.  I never bought Half-Life.  I was a quake guy.  I never played Team Fortress...Weapons Factory for Quake 2 was my game until I moved on to Gloom.  I actually broke down and bought half-life at Sam's club about a year ago when I saw it on sale for $7 (including blue shift and opfor) thinking, heck I'll finally see what this counterstrike thing is, only to find I'd been burned with a cripled copy that didn't include online multiplayer.

But I'll be buying Half-Life2 the day it comes out.  Without pre-ordering of course.  I saw the movie...it's amazing.  Unlike a lot of people, I haven't actually played the game yet.  I've had lots of opportunities to DL that stolen copy but I'd rather wait to see it in all it's finished glory.
#16 by Eyegore
2004-05-16 07:40:52
http://home.cfl.rr.com/eyegore/gallery.htm
Forget steam though.  Let it die a smoking death.
#17 by Sgt Hulka
2004-05-16 07:42:07
heh.. I just bought Alice yesterday.

Painkeep Arena 3.0 - Download it, you know you want to.
#18 by Bailey
2004-05-16 08:01:23
Minus three points if HL2 attempts to force me to install and utilize Steam, I'm tellin' you right now... not that anyone will ever read it, but regardless!

Saving Throw vs Humanity
#19 by Percy Kittenz
2004-05-16 08:06:15
blakcat9@planetquake.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/percykittenz
Oh, it will. You can be sure of that.

Now that there's a speculative release date (July 2, according to Wal-mart), I suspect we should be hearing about their publishing plans. They had said last year that they'd be releasing a single-player only version. I imagine that'll just be HL2 without any of the extras like Counter-Strike, HL1, TFC.... Now that they've had time to test their Steam system with an actual release (CS:CZ), they'll probably be counting on that, too.

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. Because your philosophy sucks." - Lore Fitzgerald Sjöberg
#20 by Squeaky
2004-05-16 08:12:34
#3 Darkseid-D
As for CS in the Source engine, you -have- seen the movie, right?  the 600mb one thats knocking about on fileplanet.  It wont add huge changes to counter strike, but it will add several things. Primarily a new codebase thats marginally more secure against hacks and bots, physics updates, desctructible cover, potential for ambush items (group of CT's charging you, take out the barrels beside em, boom, problem solved), more flexible animations (hand gestures anyone?), no more same o same o death spin and drops (movie shows one corpse doing an a-team style corpse cartwheel from a grenade).  The level shown, de_aztec is superficially the same level, with improved lighting and new schticks that Source pulls off, splashing water effects, bullets striking up when they hit the water, visible ricocchets, "proper" doors.

*yawn*

I just found me a bottle of blues
some strange comfort for a soul to soothe
dvds
#21 by Percy Kittenz
2004-05-16 08:18:40
blakcat9@planetquake.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/percykittenz
Darkseid-D: That means nothing to me unless they change the game so that those features have a purpose. So long as you can bunny-hop at 170% normal speed and awp headshot people in 1/10 of a second, all the cool subtle little details and physics don't really mean a lot. When the most popular map in CS is still Iceworld, a map which is one large box, about 50x50 ft with four columns in the corners as cover and every weapon in the game scattered across the floor at the team spawn points, all the beauty and physics of Source isn't going to make that fun. If they wanted to tweak it so that it was at least a bit more interesting like, say, Raven Shield, then I'd give a damn.

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. Because your philosophy sucks." - Lore Fitzgerald Sjöberg
#22 by Bailey
2004-05-16 08:21:54
In other words, Percy hates Asians.

Saving Throw vs Humanity
#23 by Matt Perkins
2004-05-16 08:22:55
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
All they will ever owe you is, when you plop down your fifty bucks, a good game to play. Arguably it doesn't even have to be good, it just has to be on par with the rest of the crap that gets released every week.

We've all had this argument a thousand times, but I'll say one last time, I don't buy into the idea that if I pay my $50 for a game, the developer merely owe me something that runs on my system.  They owe me quality, in my mind.  From the ground up, the graphics, the AI, the QA, all of it.  That's what making games is about, in my mind.

And that's not to say sometimes things aren't forced out of their hands (see Temple of Elemental Evil), but overall, I just don't buy the argument, developers owe me something that functions and that's it.

"...he related the story of how when they first put all the creature AI in place in Black & White, the hungry creature walked around in circles acting strange before they realized it was trying to eat itself. " - Peter on B&W
#24 by Matt Perkins
2004-05-16 08:25:00
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
So long as you can bunny-hop at 170% normal speed

This is no longer possible in the Steam CS version.

awp headshot people in 1/10 of a second

This is a known design flaw according the developers and I HOPE they don't release with it as it stands now.  But I don't hold out a lot of hope if it's just CS + Source.

"...he related the story of how when they first put all the creature AI in place in Black & White, the hungry creature walked around in circles acting strange before they realized it was trying to eat itself. " - Peter on B&W
#25 by Percy Kittenz
2004-05-16 08:26:29
blakcat9@planetquake.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/percykittenz
Bailey (#22) is trying to start something:
In other words, Percy hates Asians.

Yes, but that's for entirely different reasons.

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. Because your philosophy sucks." - Lore Fitzgerald Sjöberg
#26 by Bailey
2004-05-16 09:28:07
"Ching chong bong" might mean a chinaman is trying to say hello.

Saving Throw vs Humanity
#27 by mnemonic
2004-05-16 11:13:23
xmnemonic@softhome.net http://jti.developer.graphyx.net
If they wanted to tweak it so that it was at least a bit more interesting like, say, Raven Shield, then I'd give a damn.

Or better yet, like Rogue Spear, whose maps have yet to be equalled in realism or genre relevance.
#28 by G-Man
2004-05-16 12:38:01
#18 Bailey
Minus three points if HL2 attempts to force me to install and utilize Steam, I'm tellin' you right now... not that anyone will ever read it, but regardless!
You know what? It might not be the "cool" thing to do, but I actually really like Steam. Since I have installed it, I haven't had to deal with manually updating DoD or CS. I like the friends feature. I even like that they pushed CS:CZ on my hard drive in case I would want to buy it. The only problem I ever really had with it was that you couldn't play CS on a lan without internet access. But they've fixed that so it isn't really a problem anymore.
#29 by Eyegore
2004-05-16 12:58:27
http://home.cfl.rr.com/eyegore/gallery.htm
They could easily include an auto-update/patch feature without attaching it to some lame pay-per-month subscription scheme.  They're just being greedy.
#30 by Percy Kittenz
2004-05-16 13:04:05
blakcat9@planetquake.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/percykittenz
G-Man: They downloaded CS:CZ to your machine without you asking for it, just so that you'd already have it in case you wanted to buy it?

It's good that you can do LAN-play without Steam. How did they fix that? It was my impression that online verification was going to be required for Half-Life 2 every time you wanted to play it.

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. Because your philosophy sucks." - Lore Fitzgerald Sjöberg
#31 by G-Man
2004-05-16 13:04:10
#29 Eyegore
They could easily include an auto-update/patch feature without attaching it to some lame pay-per-month subscription scheme.  They're just being greedy.
I hear you. But they haven't starting charging yet, so its still all good as far as I am concerned.
#32 by zimbardo_ugly
2004-05-16 14:25:49
zimbardo_ugly@hotmail.com
Steam comes from a pile of cow shit.

"Warez non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"
#33 by Charles
2004-05-16 16:49:52
www.bluh.org
Why on earth would Valve not keep milking the cow, when there are so many retards who are willing to keep sucking?

Shit, if I was in their position, you can bet damn well I'd do the same thing.

Also, regarding Chris's valuation of what developers owe you... Technically, all they owe you is a game that you can play through to completion.  It doesn't have to be good, it doesn't have to be on par with anything.  They just owe you a game that has few enough bugs that you can 'play' from start to finish.

"I'm not asking for much; just a job that meets the minimum legal requirements set forth by my country."
#34 by BarneyQue
2004-05-16 17:05:41
I was TF's little bitch back in the glqw days. Having played that for a zillion hours, the game industry owes me nothing, and I ask very little of it these days.

But I know nothing, as I am still playing morrowind.
#35 by LPMiller
2004-05-16 17:15:59
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Steam has given me zero problems in the 8 months I've had it installed. There is way too much bitching about Steam by either people who don't use it and fear The Man, or the few that have had a ton of issues.

Patriots don't need grammar or spellings for rid the world and tyranny. - Leslie Nassar, 3/28/2004
#36 by Ryslin
2004-05-16 17:31:48
(waves piece of paper)
Squeeky wheel and all that, course the choice of grease or axe is as always yours.

Zang! Who is that, running over the desert! It is Ryslin, hands clutching a bladed baseball bat! And with a spectacular grunt, her voice cometh:

"I'm going to spank you beyond mortal comprehension, then bake cookies!"
#37 by ProStyle
2004-05-16 18:18:51
http://prostyle.deviantart.com
I don't really have a problem with Steam either. The way it works for me is to facilitate the screening of anyone on a connection under 256k, so if you're on dialup you can't headshot me and then run halfway across the map and then see it register.

On the updated effects vs gameplay argument - how can you blame Valve? They obviously didn't plan on CS becoming the most popular mod. Goose probably didn't assume that Iceworld was going to be the be-all-end-all of pub maps. You can't blame anyone but the community - even in their ignorance, nobody else is running the show.

I think if anything CS made the mistake of having an official map system in their actual distribution. If I recall, TF maybe had one or two maps made by Robin and that was it. The best maps were determined by the hardcore as usual but out of that free environment. The difference was you got every 2fort variant imaginable - PLUS -assassination (hunted), escape/es (border), one flag multicap/multigoal (spazball), etc etc. Each map had its own suitable audience and they were all able to co-exist on their own merits. With CS these things are accomplished by anal admins with huge custom maps lists and crappy AMX modifications, at best.

Also, the popularity of CS vs the actual beta cycles was bizarre as I recall. Tactical, team based FPS? Tell that to my P-90 buzzing out 40 rounds of more accurate destruction than the AK as I bunnyhop over a horribly re-created Facility from Goldeneye. The gun is worthless now, as is bunnyhopping - but its still the same game - with about 2 balanced maps for serious play and only 3 guns that are worth using in a tournament. Beta 3.5 to Version... 1.5... now... 2, 3, whatever? Milking it is definately an understatement.

The announcement that this is just going to simply be ported to HL2 as its stock multiplayer mode makes me glad I bought UT2k4 and learned how to use its fantastic editor instead of waiting around for that kind of garbage.

I'm like a quote out of context...
#38 by Eyegore
2004-05-16 18:34:18
http://home.cfl.rr.com/eyegore/gallery.htm
From what I've read about steam it sounds like a good idea right up until they say monthly subscripton, then it turns into a pile of shit.  Remove that and I've got no problems with it.
#39 by Creole Ned
2004-05-16 18:46:30
A monthly subscription will only be there for people who don't want to pay for the retail games outright. No one who goes to a store and buys a Valve game is going to be hit with a monthly fee for using Steam.

"I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
#40 by deadlock
2004-05-16 19:05:48
http://www.deadlocked.org/
Why is it that the "developers owe you nothing" line is always adopted by the developers on this board? As a consumer, I would argue that it's the other way round.

#41 by chris
2004-05-16 19:12:01
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Consumers don't owe developers anything either.

-chris
#42 by Darkseid-D
2004-05-16 19:15:45
rogerboal@hotmail.com
The FUD is strong.

All the fee per month nonsense is just that, nonsense.  People are confusing pay per month with pay access.  There are several pricing options available, or rather, will be, one is Buy HL2 outright and its streamed to your pc for you to play, then buy Hl2 + Mp and off you go, or theres pay per month which gives you access to all of Valve's games, released AND upcoming on a month to month basis.  Extra content and "custom" servers are also included in that access package.

All the "OMG YUO HAV TO PAY TO PLAY ALL THE TIME OMF WTF KEKEKE" shit is just dumb. STEAM is a brave attempt attempt at a delivery system, its not perfect, but it IS the way software is heading in the future (DRM and MS security and servers anyone? Palladium?).  Valve isnt stupid, they know that a pay to play ONLY system will not work, but they also know there are people out there who would rather download the game (or have it downloaded) due to lack of mobility, lack of being able to buy the software or flat out lazyness. They also know that a chunk of their market dont have access to credit cards.

Anyway, Im away to the gym and for a swim, ttfn.

Do not go gently into that good night.
Old age should burn and rage at the close of day.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
#43 by UncleJeet
2004-05-16 19:26:55
In an age where we've seen industry blockbusters like Deer Hunter, it is clear to me that nobody owes anybody anything.  Developers make a game and take their chances that people will like it, and consumers pay their money and take their chances that the game will be worth it.  But as long as games like Def Jam Vendetta outsell games like Deus Ex, the world will remain a silly place.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#44 by Charles
2004-05-16 19:44:47
www.bluh.org
Why is it that the "developers owe you nothing" line is always adopted by the developers on this board? As a consumer, I would argue that it's the other way round.


Please, then, elaborate on what developers owe you, and why.

"I'm not asking for much; just a job that meets the minimum legal requirements set forth by my country."
#45 by UncleJeet
2004-05-16 20:05:07
Apparently, developers owe consumers big boobies, x-treme sports, and "amazing open ended emergent gameplay" in the form of get in car, commit crime, run from cops, repeat.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#46 by deadlock
2004-05-16 21:08:54
http://www.deadlocked.org/
#44 Charles
Why is it that the "developers owe you nothing" line is always adopted by the developers on this board? As a consumer, I would argue that it's the other way round.


Please, then, elaborate on what developers owe you, and why.

It's not what they owe me, it's what they owe themselves.

#47 by Dumdeedum
2004-05-16 21:52:10
http://www.dumdeedum.com
...and "amazing open ended emergent gameplay" in the form of get in car, commit crime, run from cops, repeat.

Aha, but I hear they've added "eat food, get fat" to the mix now.  And mountains.

#48 by Eyegore
2004-05-16 22:20:07
http://home.cfl.rr.com/eyegore/gallery.htm
Steam reminds me of DivX

When it pumps a whole game onto your hard drive (just in case you might want to buy it) does it have the courtesy to NOT do that while you're trying to play a game and fight through the server's lag?
#49 by G-Man
2004-05-16 22:54:09
#48 Eyegore
Steam reminds me of DivX

When it pumps a whole game onto your hard drive (just in case you might want to buy it) does it have the courtesy to NOT do that while you're trying to play a game and fight through the server's lag?
Yes. Stop being so biased.
#50 by Your Friend
2004-05-16 22:59:47
Steam is sooo gay.

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