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T O P I C
Canadian Authorities Support Responsible Gaming
July 14th 2000, 03:49 CEST by andy

According to this Associated Press story over on ABC News, the game Soldier of Fortune has been classed in Canada as an "adult movie", and as such may not be sold to anyone under 18 years of age.



Two quick comments I'll make about this story...

Firstly, I hope we won't hear any complaints from U.S. or Canadian game developers about "censorship" or "the nanny government". The industry, as it were, has decided that certain games should NOT be sold to children, and Soldier of Fortune is one of those games. So what's wrong with the law putting a bit of weight behind that decision?

Any complaints about this will show, as far as I'm concerned, that the American game rating system is just a marketing tool, designed to make violent games more 'desirable' to children. I'm sure there are enough people thinking that already, so let's not give them any more ammunition, hey guys?

Secondly, due to my current obsession with "The Media" and its ever-wavering standards, one part of the story jumped out at me:

Called Soldier of Fortune, the game depicts a mercenary who kills and maims humans and animals on a series of armed missions.

Surely that's like saying "the police are a group of men and women who kill people while investigating crime", or "the Associated Press is an organisation that makes mistakes while reporting the news". Sure, these statements are truthful within themselves, but to an uninformed reader they don't exactly paint an accurate picture.

C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "None-1a"
2000-07-14 03:52:29
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
Could be much worse, at lest it wasn't banned or forced to lock out the bad stuff with no way to turn it back on.

<b>#Main Post</b> "andy" Quoted...
<QUOTE>Called Soldier of Fortune, the game depicts a mercenary who kills and maims
humans and animals on a series of armed missions.</QUOTE>

Odd I don't remember any animals.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#2 by "Baytor"
2000-07-14 03:52:41
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
Yes, brilliant.

First?

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#3 by "Baytor"
2000-07-14 04:03:35
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<i>Surely that's like saying "the police are a group of men and women who kill people while investigating crime", or "the Associated Press is an organisation that makes mistakes while reporting the news". Sure, these statements are truthful within themselves, but to an uninformed reader they don't exactly paint an accurate picture.</i>


Ummm, the police and media do that when they screw up.  In SoF, killing and maiming is the sole objective--not that there's anything wrong with that.  

I'm against mass murder and all, but if I... ummm... nevermind.


I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#4 by "Pendragon"
2000-07-14 04:12:22
penuruloki@hotmail.com
<b>#Main Post</b> "andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>

Any complaints about this will show, as far as I'm concerned, that the American game rating system is just a marketing tool, designed to make violent games more 'desirable' to children. I'm sure there are enough people thinking that already, so let's not give them any more ammunition, hey guys?

</QUOTE>

Heh, I remember picking Duke 3D off the shelf. The warning on the front corner said "Violence: Level 4 Wanton and gratuitious violence." Best piece of advertising on the box.

I say parents should be previewing these purchases anyway. If they did, we wouldn't need to worry about these things as much. To me, this isn't a big deal as long as it's still available to the public. The real story will unfold as people try to distribute it under this classification. Will the stores have to get these adult licenses? Do they have them already? Will stores carry the game at all? The answers to those questions are the real meat of the story, where we find out if it keeps the game out of the hands of kids, or gamers in general.

Having it classified as a movie is funny though. Will it be in the video section then?

Pendragon<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#5 by "Baytor"
2000-07-14 04:15:36
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
There used to be this comic book company that put their own warning labels on the cover on the book.

If it had violence, there was a knife, dripping blood.  If it was sex, it was the silhoette of a naked woman.  If it was profanity, they had that @#!

Sadly, the cover warnings were more entertaining than the books. I just imagine some poor little kid picking up these books being severely disappointed.

This has nothing to do with anything, so don't bother trying to figure out reasons.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#6 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-07-14 04:24:23
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
I think this is a better situation than the legislation that would not allow retailers to carry "Mature" games on the regular displays. They'd only be allowed to have the behind the counter, which is loopy. So what if a box with that rating "makes" a kid want the game; if it's designed for 18 and up, enforce it at the register. But don't make buying the game like buying a freakin' porno magazine.

(I guess they'd be forced to move "R" rated movies behind counters too. Oh, and what about books with dirty words?)

---
"My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#7 by "BloodKnight"
2000-07-14 04:38:26
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
Hell I don't blame them for banning, I am quite glad for once someone stand up.  I am 16 and I did play SOF, so far SOF is the most blood-crazed game out there.  Name a game where you grab a knife and start cutting apart arms and legs?  Truly brutal.

Also one guy mentioned about the animals, one level where in Africa in a slaughter house, they shoot the cattle, and ------ *SPOILER* *SPOILER* ---- One guy gets shredded in the blades in the slaughter house --- *SPOILER* *SPOILER* ---------

Sorry but I just think people don't want to be spoiled at the part I mentioned.  Unless you read it of course (which you people probably did).  I think SOF was all gore and no gameplay, only fun for a week then I returned it to EB.









<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#8 by "Baytor"
2000-07-14 04:41:12
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#7</b> "BloodKnight" wrote...
<QUOTE>

so far SOF is the most blood-crazed game out there. Name a game where you grab a knife and start cutting apart arms and legs? Truly brutal.

Also one guy mentioned about the animals, one level where in Africa in a slaughter house, they shoot the cattle, and ------ *SPOILER* *SPOILER* ---- One guy gets shredded in the blades in the slaughter house --- *SPOILER* *SPOILER* ---------

</QUOTE>

Kewl!  I think I'll have to check it out.

After I buy Deus Ex, of course.


I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#9 by "None-1a"
2000-07-14 04:49:30
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#7</b> "BloodKnight" wrote...
<QUOTE>Sorry but I just think people don't want to be spoiled at the part I mentioned.
Unless you read it of course (which you people probably did). I think SOF was
all gore and no gameplay, only fun for a week then I returned it to EB.
</QUOTE>

I wouldn't say that, if you play it run and gun it sucks bad. Sneaking around it's great (damn good level design). There was just three things I didn't like, 1: the PADD didn't do a damn thing when I was playing, no matter what I did it never went above yellow 2: Not enough use of the undercover stuff (ie the sections when running around Iraq for the first time) 3: 700MB install size, just great I need to but a new hard drive for this one game (I know 2 gigs sucks now but come on 700MB with no other options).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#10 by "BarneyQue"
2000-07-14 05:30:41
BarneyQue@hotmail.com http://N/A
<b>#9</b> "None-1a" wrote...
<QUOTE>

 3: 700MB install size, just great I need to but a new hard drive for this one game (I know 2 gigs sucks now but come on 700MB with no other options).</QUOTE>

2Gigs?  Thats all you got?  Wow.  My DeusEx directory is just a bit over 1.5Gb now with all the massive savegames.  And Omikron is a nice fat 1.6Gb install all on it's own.  


Games are absolutly massive these days.  I thought I was sitting tight with my two drives.  (13Gb, and 5Gb).  You got it really tough there.  Couldn't even hold my mp3's on that drive.

I feel for ya dood.  Time to upgrade, I know I am.  :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#11 by "BarneyQue"
2000-07-14 05:34:16
BarneyQue@hotmail.com http://N/A
BTW, just a minor correction to the article, or at least the title.  The game has not been givin this lofty status all across Canada, just one province so far.

It's a nit pick, I know, but I just thought I'd toss out that extra bit.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#12 by "None-1a"
2000-07-14 05:35:18
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#10</b> "BarneyQue" wrote...
<QUOTE>I feel for ya dood. Time to upgrade, I know I am. :)</QUOTE>

Yeah my real problem is I feel like I'm in frogger. I'm sitting here watching all this stuff come and as soon as I see the great new shit get out there I'm geting info on the next thing. It's about time I just jump out in front of that truck, with a totaly gut of the o'l CPU, even my stinking floppy drive died on me about three months ago (never did relise how useless that thing was it took me two months to relise it was dead).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#13 by "BarneyQue"
2000-07-14 05:55:29
BarneyQue@hotmail.com http://N/A
Damm, I was trying to find another link more or less on the same topic of violent games, and Canada, but I'm not having any luck.

I'll paraphrase it a bit here.  I'm sure most all of us are familiar with one lieutenant colonel David Grossman. He's the guy running around calling all our favorite games murder simulators.  Well, roughly six months or so, we had a nice big meeting of Canadian chiefs of police, and other politicians.  The topic was mostly violence as you would expect, domestic in particular, but I guess this grossman fellow attended to give a keynote of sorts.  

After he gave his speech, loaded with retoric regarding little kids being able to out shoot crack marksmen and whatnot, and of course bringing up the Littleton issuse just to be sure that everyone in the room was listening real close, a discussion ensued involving politicians, and chiefs, and one of the things they were tossing around, was a potential tax specifically aimed at games such as SOF, and our old favorites Doom, and wolfenstein  (wonder why there still talking bout the oldies so much eh?), anyways, how about that, a 'sin' tax on games with the specific purpose of pricing games out of kids reach (as if they are not already at 60 bucks a pop up here), not to mention giving some of the money to special interest groups who have been affected by violence.

Sooo, to wrap up this mess.  With an event like that in recent memory, I'm not so quick to applaud the BC government for the stand they are taking.  With each step it will get worse untill we have no games worth playing.


This is a simple parental responsibility issue. -Period

I a huge fan of parents taking responsibility for the shit they let the kids bring home instead of begging to government to fix every little godamn problem we have.  This may not be very politically correct, but there's simply too many fucking retards having kids, and letting the damn nintendo and tv bring them up.

I may not be able to spell half the words I use to write this up, but I certaily know without the government telling me that SOF, and kingpin just might not be appropriate for a 6 year old to be messing with.   Damn, now I all pissed off again.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#14 by "Dark Messiah"
2000-07-14 06:08:13
Sabre17394@aol.com http://www.opnation.com
I think there should be heavy restrictions placed on violent games. Old schoolers say they grew up on violent games, and haven't killed anyone. But that's not the issue. It's the realism factor. How many ulta-real violent game were there 20 years ago? Not too many I'd hazard to guess. But now we have a game, like Solider of Fortune where it is very real. Even I was very unimpressed with SoF concerning the violence, and I am 17 years old...

Dark Messiah
Opinion Nation
#15 by "BarneyQue"
2000-07-14 06:15:58
BarneyQue@hotmail.com http://N/A
<b>#14</b> "Dark Messiah" wrote...
<QUOTE>

I think there should be heavy restrictions placed on violent games. Old schoolers say they grew up on violent games, and haven't killed anyone. But that's not the issue. It's the realism factor. How many ulta-real violent game were there 20 years ago? Not too many I'd hazard to guess. But now we have a game, like Solider of Fortune where it is very real. Even I was very unimpressed with SoF concerning the violence, and I am 17 years old...

Dark Messiah
Opinion Nation </QUOTE>


Playing a game is not an act of violence.  It is very far from real.  No one has yet to suffer so much as a bruise while I played a game.  Violence is what the kids who are not playing games are potentially involved in. They are participating in real gangs, real fights, real vandalism etc..<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#16 by "None-1a"
2000-07-14 06:23:23
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#13</b> "BarneyQue" wrote...
<QUOTE>wonder why there still talking bout the oldies so much eh? </QUOTE>

Because Grossman is full of shit. I've seen an interview with him where he was asked to name one resent movie, tv show, or game that would fit into his 'murder simulator' ideas. His answer I do not watch this stuff I have not been to a movie or watched TV in the last five to ten years. Bascily that guys has been living under a rock since he left the military (where he worked as a pyscologist working with shell shocked people, and other common problems with recruts not one making training recomendations like he clames). He has never given his input or recived and input to or from other working in the field (some of which are reporting that playing violent games caused young kids to not act out, while cuddely games cause them to act out).

Nothing Grossman has never said has any grounds in fact (he clamed the military used a modified version of doom to desensitize troops, the military says it used it for teamwork traning). Bascily he is nothing more than a big blow hard that happened to put his ideas into a book, maybe one of us should write one.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "Ian"
2000-07-14 06:40:31
terrencelaukkanen@hotmail.com
My position on this is like my position on seatbelt and drug laws. Sure, you shouldn't be smoking crack cocaine on a weekday or not wearing your seatbelt, but if you need the government to tell you to buckle your safety belt, your a moron. And besides, if someone decides to start up a heroine habit, do you think they will be deterred by something so easy as jail time? "Oh gee, I was going to buy a gram of pure, uncut, Colombian cocaine but then my friends reminded me it was against the law." Likewise, do you need the government to tell you that buying your little treasure a simulation of a hired killer's life is a bad idea, you should have a barbell nailed to your foot and be tossed into the sea, or barring that, take a parenting class.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#18 by "Valeyard"
2000-07-14 06:46:21
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
<b>#Main Post</b> "The Associated Press" wrote...
<QUOTE>Called Soldier of Fortune, the game depicts a mercenary who kills and maims humans and animals on a series of armed missions.</QUOTE>

Propaganda.  Scare-Tactics.

I'll stay away from the typical issues regarding violence in games, except to say that I have no problem with a rating system or restrictions.

This sort of propaganda in the media is another story, it's more sickening than any violent game or movie I've seen.  This is blatant sensationalization..."let's make this sound as bad as possible.  Let's put a completely unfair, negative spin on the subject in the hopes of furthering the agenda of a few ultra-conservatives and people with nothing better to do."

"Truth be damned! There are lives to save!"

The media continually does this, skewing the issue in an attempt to act as the moral guardians of the lowly public - and the government is the same way.  We can't possibly make up our own minds about what's good for us..oh no, we need Mommy Media and Papa Politics to make the decisions for us.

While I'm not against warning responsible parents about potential hazards, that's simply <b>not</b> what's going on.  <b>Responsible</b> parents already protect their children as they see fit.  It's the <b>irresponsible</b> parent that need to be informed...and they're too irresponsible to get it.

Do I think young kids should be exposed to violence in games or film?  Not really.  I think there are certain <i>levels</i> of exposure that are not only "OK", but necessary.  You can't over-protect them, they'll be afraid of their own shadow all their life...or at least until they learn the hard way.

Does that mean we need more laws to protect kids?  Not at all.  Two kinds of kids are going to play games like SOF, kids who's parents allow it and kids who's parents don't know...because they're not paying attention.

When the media steps in with it's scare tactics and scewed reporting, all it does is stir up trouble and give "Soccer Moms" a cause to champion between driving Billy to practice and picking him up afterward.

Of course it also allows "experts", who should be unemployed, the chance to get on TV and spout their opinions as facts.

Violence is a reality.  Sex is a reality.  Kids are going to learn about and participate in tons of activities that <i>some</i> people think they shouldn't be doing.  They always have, they always will.  It's called growing up.  Every generation before them happened to make it through, why should we expect any less from the latest litter?

Stop protecting them from making any little mistake.  Stop hiding them from the real world.  Stop telling them they're wonderful when they deserve to be scolded.  Stop passing them through the school system to save their egos when they deserve to be held back.  Stop lying to them about "controversial" topics - they'll only find out that you lied, and that'll make things worse.  Let the little monsters experience life.

Does that mean let them do what they want and run loose?  Hell no.  Be a responsible parent, try to make reasonable decisions about the maturity of your child and what he/she is ready to handle.  If you start early, you might be surprised at how <i>early</i> they are ready to handle new things.  You might also be surprised at how intelligent and well adjusted they become.

Stop protecting the general public from themselves.  Especially adults.  Let them take the helmet off, let them unbuckle that seatbelt, let them drink shampoo/clorox/bug killer, let them hold combustable products near open flames, let them have unprotected sex, let them take <b>any</b> risk they want to with their own life.

Let's give natural selection a chance...it worked fairly well until we decided we knew better than nature.

-Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#19 by "BarneyQue"
2000-07-14 06:55:33
BarneyQue@hotmail.com http://N/A
Add everything Valeyard said to my stuff. I agree 100%.


Or am I just supposed to say. "What he said".  :)


Hmm, is this a me too message?  yuck.  <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#20 by "Dark Messiah"
2000-07-14 07:14:32
Sabre17394@aol.com http://www.opnation.com
People say kids aren't impressionable, yet I see tons of retarded children immitating The Rock and other wrestlers... I am just not so sure.

Dark Messiah
Opinion Nation
#21 by "Paul"
2000-07-14 07:20:49
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
My belief is that if someone is 18 they should be able to do whatever they want as long as their "fist doesn't hit the next person's nose(paraphrased from an american in the 18th century, i can't quite remember who though)" That includes video games, heroine, whatever. Certain things may have severe negative effects on a person, but that is his/her decision to make, not the government's.

My view of government is to protect its individuals from outside predators... It should be up to the individual, or his/her family/friends to decide what's best for an individual.

However, if you are under 18(or not legally declared to be an adult), then it should be up to your parental figures to decide whats best for you.

In certain people, video game violence may increase real violence.. but my guess would be those same individuals did not have a decent upbringing, or may have been predisposed to mental illness.

There are some consequences we must accept due to our freedom...
#22 by "BarneyQue"
2000-07-14 07:22:55
BarneyQue@hotmail.com http://N/A
<b>#20</b> "Dark Messiah" wrote...
<QUOTE>

People say kids aren't impressionable, yet I see tons of retarded children immitating The Rock and other wrestlers... I am just not so sure.

Dark Messiah
Opinion Nation </QUOTE>

This might sound contradictory, but I agree with you on this point.  We have to be carefull about what exactly it is we allow children to experience. Everying in it's proper place and time.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#23 by "Paul"
2000-07-14 07:24:46
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
Dark Messiah said:
"People say kids aren't impressionable, "

And those people are idiots..;-) Kids are very impressionable by their surroundings, but with decent parenting, and a little luck, a child will turn out on track. A kid is much more impressionable by a parent who they see or talk to 4 hours a day, than someone on TV they see 3 hours a week.. Our society has shifted too much in my opinion. A parent must make time for their children. Forget role models in society, what about role models in the homes?
#24 by "ArchMage"
2000-07-14 08:23:21
archmagee@yahoo.com http://www.insaneclownposse.com
"There are always those people who never let the facts get in the way of something as important as their own opinions."
-erric benner, TSR

why is sex always stuck together with violence... has anybody realized that they have nothing in common??? that sex a beautiful thing to be experienced between two people, and violence is... well violence... the two have been put under the same lable because of religion...<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#25 by "RzE"
2000-07-14 09:35:23
rze@counter-strike.net http://csnation.counter-strike.net
#24: Very valid point.. (I'm going to go off topic now)

Gray Davis, the California governer, had a large stance of 'death penelty for rapists'. Rape is a very bad crime, of course, but it's no where near as bad as planning to murder and murdering someone else... Repeat rapists should spend their life in jail, not be 'put to death'. wtf

Blah, it won't happen anyways.
#26 by "Paul"
2000-07-14 10:03:23
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
The death penalty is usually used to pander to the masses to get votes.. I've done quite a bit of research on the death penalty, and I no longer support it in any way..

First off. you are giving the government the power to kill. Secondly about 1 in 7 on death row are later released. Even if you feel the need to murder a murderer, I don't think anyone wants to murder someone innocent. It happens folks. Innocent people have been killed. Furthermore, the rate at which minority(more importantly low income) people are legally murdered is absolutely disgusting. The previous is USA information. From what I understand, most first world countries banished the Death Penalty long ago. America lags behind.. what a surprise?

- Paul
#27 by "Morgan"
2000-07-14 10:48:03
morgan@stomped.com http://tenfour.stomped.com/
<quote>Gray Davis, the California governer, had a large stance of 'death penelty for rapists'. Rape is a very bad crime, of course, but it's no where near as bad as planning to murder and murdering someone else... Repeat rapists should spend their life in jail, not be 'put to death'. wtf </quote>
I have no problem with the idea of serial rapists being given the death penalty. They have no compunction about destroying the lives of their victims and their victims' loved ones. Why do they deserve to live?

Half of society's problems comes down to leniency in my opinion. Law is only effective when potential criminals fear punishment.
#28 by "Paul"
2000-07-14 11:00:43
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
Morgan:

The Death Penalty isn't an effective deterrent. A mentally healthy person on the street
doesn't just decide "Hey, let's rape someone today. But hey, if I rape I will get the death penalty, I better not rape."

You or me would not even in the slightest fashion considering raping anyone. When you
deal with a different logic, you need to punish effectively with a different logic. But, you
also need to rehabilitate. That is what the US system is all about.

Throw someone in jail for 20 years, 40 years, whatever.. but killing them? that's what a
lot of criminals want. Make them a martyr. Make their life of mental illness end..

- Paul
#29 by "godZero"
2000-07-14 11:04:09
godzero@gmx.de
In Germany, _all_ 3d shooters are forbidden for 18-. That's a reason enough for the stores not to sell these at all, "knowing" that most gamers must be under 18 (how clever they are). You have to play some crippled german versions (half-life had some very stupid looking robots instead of marines; oil instead of blood). There are two options (besides warez, which I don't wont to discuss): you either buy it online abroad, or you spend days on the phone, calling every little shop in the country until you find one which has tht game. Then you gotta proove you're over 18, and then you are finaly able to get the game. Bahh!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "godZero"
2000-07-14 11:08:00
godzero@gmx.de
<b>#28</b> "Paul A. Bullman" wrote...
<QUOTE>


Morgan:

The Death Penalty isn't an effective deterrent. A mentally
healthy person on the street
doesn't just decide "Hey, let's rape someone
today. But hey, if I rape I will get the death penalty, I better not rape."


You or me would not even in the slightest fashion considering raping
anyone. When you
deal with a different logic, you need to punish effectively
with a different logic. But, you
also need to rehabilitate. That is what the
US system is all about.

Throw someone in jail for 20 years, 40 years,
whatever.. but killing them? that's what a
lot of criminals want. Make them
a martyr. Make their life of mental illness end..

- Paul </QUOTE>

Let's asume somebody rapes and kills 15 children. First, he DESERVES to die. Second, are you really ready to pay your taxes and actually contribute to feeding this guy or his medical care?

What if one of these children would be your own?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "Dethstryk"
2000-07-14 11:15:18
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>#28</b> "Paul A. Bullman" wrote...
<QUOTE>Throw someone in jail for 20 years, 40 years, whatever.. but killing them? that's what a lot of criminals want. Make them a martyr. Make their life of mental illness end..</QUOTE>
A big problem with this, however, is that prisons are becoming a lot more luxorious. Just the other day I read about a prisoner who found something out because he was watching TV.. that's just too much.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#32 by "Morgan"
2000-07-14 11:21:22
morgan@stomped.com http://tenfour.stomped.com/
In the cases where the person committing the crime is capable of rational thought and the crime is premeditated, the death penalty, or other severe punishments, are going to be effective deterrents a lot of the time.

When there is something so wrong with a person that they cannot see it is wrong to rape or murder a fellow human, on the other hand, I agree, it will not be any kind of deterrent. In that situation, however, I really don't see why the relevant country's resources should be wasted on attempting rehabilitation. There is something fundamentally wrong with a human being if they cannot understand or accept why they shouldn't do such things. Removing them from society permanently - through prison or through execution - is, in my opinion, the right course of action.

I see no reason why people who commit these kinds of crimes deserve a second chance. Their victims didn't.

Incidentally, I don't understand your point about becoming a martyr. Public opinion is not going to swing around to supporting murder or rape simply because the perpetrator was put to death. And if being put to death was their ultimate goal in performing these acts, who cares? My goal would be to get them the hell out of society; whether or not that they want the same thing is irrelevant.
#33 by "Morgan"
2000-07-14 11:25:28
morgan@stomped.com http://tenfour.stomped.com/
I wrote:
<quote>Their victims didn't. </quote>
Of course, I meant, "their victims didn't get one", or similar.

To further elaborate on the topic of rehabilitation, I see value in this approach for lesser crimes and when the criminal is young. A 13-year-old who's been breaking into cars can probably be persuaded of the error of his/her ways. I cannot accept that it is worthwhile or even right to bother trying to save an adult murderer/rapist in the same way.
#34 by "Paul"
2000-07-14 11:48:04
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
godZero:

Actually, the cost of appeals, and other expenses(like people usually get executed 5 to 10+ years after their conviction.) usually supercede feeding/housing a person for the rest of his/her life.

I don't have a child, but let's say it was a family member of any sort. I still don't believe in killing anyone. The blood is then on my hands as well. I'm pro life across the board. I can't give over the idea of killing someone. What happens if he is innocent? Eye witness testimony is often severly flawed. Look at the man who was killed in Texas a few weeks ago. He was an awful person. Armed robbery, the works. But I believe he was wrongly convicted of murder. In fact, the vote to continue the execution was just 5 to 4 in the Supreme Court. That means one person ultimately decided his fate. That's wrong. Not to mention the 3 or so other eye witnesses who saw someone else.

Nevertheless, the killing of someone is Cruel and Unusual. It's Cruel because once you kill someone(obviously) the person will never be able to be rehabilitated. Rehabilitation was set up to be 50% of the battle in prisons. It's unusual because most first world countries do not have an active Death Penalty.

I believe, in a society which pledges to move forward, we often find ourselves stuck in the dark ages without any enlightment.

I can not disagree with the gut wrenching negative emotions towards disgusting individuals, but I have a firm belief, that does not justify murdering anyone.

If Americans are really concerned about wasteful tax spending, they should be more concerned about the "War on Drugs." We could severely lessen poverty in America if we stopped the nonsense of supply side drug wars, and focussed on promoting healthy lifestyles. But people tend to vote for someone fighting the nonsense war of drugs.  

hope it makes sense.. it's almost 5am and I've spent the last 7 hours staring at a 3d editor;-)

- Paul
#35 by "Paul"
2000-07-14 12:01:24
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
Morgan said:

<quote>
When there is something so wrong with a person that they cannot see it is wrong to rape or murder a fellow human, on the other hand, I agree, it will not be any kind of deterrent. In that situation, however, I really don't see why the relevant country's resources should be wasted on attempting rehabilitation. There is something fundamentally wrong with a human being if they cannot understand or accept why they shouldn't do such things. Removing them from society permanently - through prison or through execution - is, in my opinion, the right course of action.
</quote>

Serial Killers tend to fall under this umbrella. It's a game for them. Sociopaths see you and me as nothing more than a robot.
Dahmer tried to stuff bones down his toilet. If I saw a human bone in my toilet I would probably vomit.

Prevention is where I believe money is best spent. If you can get to mentally ill children/teenagers early, you can prevent a lot of damage later on.

A lot of people can't be helped. Either they won't allow themselves to be, or they physically can't. Once they commit a crime, their place is prison. My hope is that in a few hundred years science will finally figure out what makes certain people blow up. We're are getting closer and closer..

Morgan:
<quote>
And if being put to death was their ultimate goal in performing these acts, who cares? My goal would be to get them the hell out of society; whether or not that they want the same thing is irrelevant.
</quote>

Scary but true. There are a lot of murderers who want to die. There was a lady not too long ago who professed she looked forward to her owndeath.

Mental Illness is just beginning to be understood. Psychology is a young science. Schizophrenia, for example, is barely understood. What we do know is that many people feel trapped, or appear to be trapped in a horrible reality. These types need help. They need medication, and they need to be monitored for the safety of the law abiding society.

Imagine living just one day where your mind is split. One part wants to essentially kill the other. It's out of the person's control. I don't see how I could put anyone like this to death.

- Paul
#36 by "godZero"
2000-07-14 12:01:46
godzero@gmx.de
It does make sense and I can understand your point of view. There's one reason why I can't agree: do you truly believe that a multiple murderer can ever be rehabilitated?

Over here in G, the highest penalty of all is 15 years in jail. A few years ago, a guy was sent in jail for 5 years after he raped and killed a little boy. He came out after 4 years(!) and killed another one! There are many such cases.

In my opinion, although persecuting an innocent is horrible, it happens once in 100,000+ cases of murder. Not killing murderers lets them kill much more innocent people, like the example above. Which is worse?

Back to my point: You don't kill them, you put them in jail for life. And me, you and these childrens' parents are supposed to support him (although indirectly)? Why? I'd certainly not feel bad with HIS blood on my hands. He(she?) doesn't qualify as a human been to me.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#37 by "godZero"
2000-07-14 12:03:19
godzero@gmx.de
<b>#35</b> "Paul A. Bullman" wrote...
<QUOTE>Prevention is where I believe money is best spent. If you can get to mentally
ill children/teenagers early, you can prevent a lot of damage later on.

</QUOTE>

That would be very nice, but it's a hell of a job. Now if we would all contribute...<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#38 by "Paul"
2000-07-14 12:11:14
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
godZero:

In America about 1 in 7 people on death row are eventually released.(Alan Dershowitz(spelling is off?) said this on Larry King about a year ago)

5 years for raping and killing a boy is crazy. In America he would have gotten 30+ years, depending on what he was convicted of.

godZero said:
<quote>
do you truly believe that a multiple murderer can ever be rehabilitated?
</quote>

It's tough to make a blanket statement. I don't like to beat around the bush though.. If the person suffered from a managable mental illness, and when he/she didn't take his/her medication he/she committed the murders, then I believe that individual should spend his/her in prison under medication.

I guess the answer is, most multiple murderers probably can't be helped, but there probably are a few who can. You have to make a good hearted effort though. I believe every human should be given at least that much.

- Sleepy Paul
#39 by "godZero"
2000-07-14 12:21:38
godzero@gmx.de
Now back on topic: Can violent computer games relly influence children between, let's say, 12 and 18?

I watched a hardcore porn movie for the first time when I was 10, and played violent games ever since. I'd say it has had a rather educational character. I never wanted to cut someone's hand off because I saw it in Kingpin: LoC, nor I wanted to rape a women in order to "taste" it.

Another view: This stuff is forbidden for youngsters. That makes them curious. They WANT to see it. If they can't, they'll want it even more. It can happen, at a certain point that it makes them do some nasty stuff in order to find out. SOME of them, very few, but still some. They don't even have to be insane, stupid does it already.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#40 by "Morn"
2000-07-14 12:39:55
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Everybody please stay on topic. Thank you. :)

I find it pretty easy to get hold of "indexed" games here in Germany; there are enough shops out there who carry them, and I'm not talking about the big retail chains, who're obviously concerned about their image.

The bigger problem is that publishers, who -- today -- often spend lots of money for making a special German version, are realizing that there are quite a few people out there ordering the indexed original version instead of buying the German one, so now they [the publishers] are starting to ban imports. Best example of this is Activision Germany, who, if I am not mistaken, are threatening retailers and online shops with lawsuits if they find them offering original imported versions.

I'm all for the "protection" of kids, and I do not want them to play games like Kingpin, Quake or Soldier of Fortune (no matter if those games would affect them negatively or not), but it's all reaching a point where it also affect me as an adult, and that just really ticks me off.

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#41 by "Morn"
2000-07-14 12:45:08
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Another thought:

I think it would be pretty easy to change the situation in Germany if gamers simply started to talk to the right people -- the politicians. Every party wants votes, and if one party realizes that they'll get some more in the next election if they modify the youth protection laws in favour of us adults (doh), they'll be likely to do it.

The biggest problem, unfortunately, is that of the many Germans who are vocal about the Indexing laws here in Germany, only a small percentage seems to be smart enough to do it all in an intelligent manner. Most German gamers sadly do the "INDEKSING SUXXX! I WANT MY QUACK AREENA!" routine; no surprise the Media makes fun of them instead of giving support.

Maybe Germany is simply getting what it deserves. :/

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#42 by "godZero"
2000-07-14 12:49:14
godzero@gmx.de
Another problem with that is that it produces much more warez sites. It would be a much better investment to try establishing a very good index system which would allow the retailers to sell the original, violen or whatever versions to adults and make sure that the kids are protected. But seriously, 18? I'd go for max. 15.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#43 by "godZero"
2000-07-14 12:49:25
godzero@gmx.de
Another problem with that is that it produces much more warez sites. It would be a much better investment to try establishing a very good index system which would allow the retailers to sell the original, violent or whatever versions to adults and make sure that the kids are protected. But seriously, 18? I'd go for max. 15.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#44 by "godZero"
2000-07-14 12:52:14
godzero@gmx.de
Morn: companies should do that, not gamers. They are the ones losing money and their influence on politics is definitely much greater (hell, the state lives from their money, too)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#45 by "Morn"
2000-07-14 12:54:19
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#44</b> "godZero" wrote...
<QUOTE>Morn: companies should do that, not gamers. They are the ones losing money and their influence on politics is definitely much greater (hell, the state lives from their money, too)</QUOTE>

Well, voters can threaten to vote for the other party, but publishers can't threaten not to sell games in Germany any more. Catch my drift?

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#46 by "godZero"
2000-07-14 12:59:07
godzero@gmx.de
Yes, but if they CANT sell any games (or not enough) they lose a lot of money. How much could Activision have earned with Kingpin and Q3 in Germany? Let's suppose they sell 100,000 each (and it would probably have been 200,000+). It sums up to 35$ x 200,000 = 7,000,000 $. Does that make them think? Definitely.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#47 by "Morn"
2000-07-14 13:04:40
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#46</b> "godZero" wrote...
<QUOTE>Yes, but if they CANT sell any games</QUOTE>

But they do, and always will. Remember that we (the people who actually care about playing the original English version) are a minority.

From the publisher's point of view, the only annoyance is that they have to make special German versions.

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "Morgan"
2000-07-14 13:49:58
morgan@stomped.com http://tenfour.stomped.com/
Paul:

I should probably point out that I've been talking about this from a purely conceptual / moralistic point of view. I don't think these people deserve to live.

However, the implementation is very difficult. There is huge scope for miscarriages of justice.

I think that the US has a better line on justice in some places. As you point out, they tend to come down more harshly and when they want to punish someone, they do it properly. Some of the sentences handed out in this country disgust me. I'm sure the same thing happens in the States but, from my admittedly uninformed perspective, it seems less prevalent.

Morn:

The system over there has always sounded somewhat draconian to me. I'm all for protecting the kids - I'd never want a child of mine to play Soldier of Fortune, for instance - but to allow the censorship to affect adults to such an extent is ridiculous. Unfortunately, the "but think of the children" argument is generally more persuasive than the one about the freedom of adults to do as they choose. I always think of that episode of the Simpsons where Lovejoy's wife just keeps saying it over and over again.
#49 by "BarneyQue"
2000-07-14 14:09:54
BarneyQue@hotmail.com http://N/A
I'm curious.  When purchasing an indexed game in Germany, I assume you have to provide some sort of proof of age.  Is it a simple flash of some sort of photo id, or do you need to fill out form's and stuff like you would when buying a gun, or getting a drivers license?

To be more direct, I'm curious if they are maintaining a database anywhere with a list of 'bad' people buying these nasty games?

To me, that would have a chilling effect on my purchases.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-14 14:30:18
Darkseid-D@planetcrap.com http://www.pcinformer.co.uk
hrm

Actually this is good news for Raven.

why.

No such thing as bad publicity.


Anyone remember the stink kicked up (mainly in the UK) over GTA (grand theft auto). Anyone else rememebr the game bouncing to near the top of the sales charts for the next few weeks.

secondary point. Arent there _two_ versions of SOF in the states, Gore and sanitised (red and green covers?) wheres the problem.

tertiary point.  *boop boop beep boop beep boop* Hello Electronics boutique in Chicago, please send me one copy of SOF, my cc is, my address is, thank you.  Or Email.... or online ordering ..

Wont hurt the sales, rather the opposite.

besides its hypocrisy.  Ooh we cant show naked people on tv til 8pm. But hey in the 6pm news we'll show you the flambe'd remains of an iraqi tank driver, or the hacked up limbs from a Rwandan massacre, or a mass grave in chechnay.  Must purge puritanism from the world .. must stop circumcision in non jewish populations...

Ds

(lets see who bites on the circumcision crack)
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