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./shut_the_fuck_up --now
July 13th 2000, 22:44 CEST by morn

A Linux vs. Windows thread! I bet you've all been waiting for this one, you impatient little bastards. Please, do read on.



Inspired by some comments in another thread, I figured this would be a nice topic to discuss, and maybe even a rich source for some more of those entertaining law suit threats.

No, the topic is not about which is better, Linux or Windows... it's about the apparent OS war itself, and the battling parties, especially the ever so vocal Linux crowd. Don't get me wrong, I love Linux. It's a great operating system. In many aspects it is better than any installment of the Windows family. PlanetCrap (and all my other web sites) are running on Linux servers. I love the entire idea of "free" software (not "free beer", but "Free Willy", although he's not a penguin), and of course, being a human being, I love "free" stuff, too. A lot of the major "flagship" projects like KDE or Mozilla have made an insane amount of progress in the last couple of months, so Linux is slowly growing into a serious alternative to Windows -- in technological terms.

However -- there is one thing about Linux that is simply so immensely annoying that I'm not even considering to ever become a serious Linux supporter: the Linux community itself. Largely consisting of "MAKE IT OPEN SOURCE!" cryboys and elitist "We don't see why we should help newbies, they can read the docs after all" snobs, the Linux community, as I have had the joy of experiencing it over the last couple of years, is one of the most aggressive and unforgiving ones in our wonderful little global village -- Quake/Unreal hooligans, eat your heart out. If you ask me, if there is any reason why Linux will never become a serious competitior to Windows, it's the larger part of the people who support it.

I have four words for every Linux fanatic who ever attacked another user for using Windows, or claimed that Windows operating systems crash 20 times a day, or thinks Microsoft are evil incarnate: Grow The Fuck Up. That would have been two words if I had been feeling any less fed up with this.

Is this what Linus Torvalds wanted? Or am I just plain wrong?

C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "Morn"
2000-07-13 22:44:32
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Threethousandonehundredandseventyfifth! MAKE IT OPEN SOURCE!

- Morn
#2 by "Baytor"
2000-07-13 22:47:04
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>Morn:</b>
<i>Threethousandonehundredandseventyfifth! MAKE IT OPEN SOURCE! </i>
Rat bastard, I wanted to be first

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#3 by "Baytor"
2000-07-13 22:53:20
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
My favorite are the guys who talk about what a wonder OS it is, once you get everything working properly.  There are actually people who will replace every piece of hardware on their system just to get Linux up and running.

Tell me again how that is better that Windows.  At least it's compatable with the vast majority of hardware out there--a very impressive feat in my books.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#4 by "12xu"
2000-07-13 22:55:18
mswitzer@insync.net http://http;//www.hichouston.org
Have you found windows users to be more helpful?

I find the mass of them (not us obviously, hehe) to be generally clueless...
If you have a problem with windows the average windows user most likely won't be able to help you...
the average linux user would probably be able to help...it's just that some of them won't...

I had no problem finding pro-linux people to help me get my stuff running and have even had folks offer me old NIC's
when I had problems getting my newer 3com going...

that said I have not booted into linux more than a couple of times since I went dual boot...

12xu
out
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#5 by "G-Man"
2000-07-13 22:55:21
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
I disagree. I think that the only reasons that Linux aren't a choice for the mainstream user are Hardware incompatability and poor User Interface. All that really needs to be streamlined and made easy enough for a child to learn is installing the OS, installing a program, starting a program, and shutting down. This isn't go to happen for quite a while because of the 'piecemeal/roll your own' attitude most developers have.

Remember that vast majority of people using operating systems simply don't have a clue that there is even an operating system 'war', so these guys aren't really being offended or scared of by linux enthusiasts.

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#6 by "Rantage"
2000-07-13 22:56:58
rantage@hotmail.com http://www.steelmaelstrom.org
IMO, the average Linux zealot is far more polite (and clued-in) than the average Mac zealot.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#7 by "Morn"
2000-07-13 22:58:09
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#4</b> "12xu" wrote...
<QUOTE>Have you found windows users to be more helpful?

I find the mass of them
(not us obviously, hehe) to be generally clueless...</QUOTE>

Yeah, no surprise really. First of all, there are somewhat more Windows users than Linux users (doh), and of course Windows doesn't make you think as hard as Linux does. Still, the big problem is:

<quote>the average linux user would probably be able to help...it's just that some of them won't...</quote>

And that really, really sucks.

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#8 by "Morn"
2000-07-13 22:59:02
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
PPS: Yes, I know Linux users who're willing to help. Unfortunately, they seem to be the exception to the rule.

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#9 by "12xu"
2000-07-13 23:01:09
mswitzer@insync.net http://http;//www.hichouston.org
<b>#6</b> "Rantage" wrote...
<QUOTE>


IMO, the average Linux zealot is far more polite (and clued-in) than the
average Mac zealot.</QUOTE>


We have quite a few designers here who insist on using Macs...all I can say is you are on the money...

None of our techs have any mac experience and the folks who insist this is the only way they can do their job stil can't
do the some of the most basic things on their mac without our help.

Do you know you have to install a separate utility to ping from a mac box?

AARRGGGHHH!!!

on that note anyone know if their is anyway to troubleshoot a slow appletalk connection?


12xu
out<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#10 by "Morn"
2000-07-13 23:01:44
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#5</b> "G-Man" wrote...
<QUOTE>I disagree. I think that the only reasons that Linux aren't a choice for the
mainstream user are Hardware incompatability and poor User Interface. All that
really needs to be streamlined and made easy enough for a child to learn is
installing the OS, installing a program, starting a program, and shutting down.
This isn't go to happen for quite a while because of the 'piecemeal/roll your
own' attitude most developers have.</QUOTE>

Well, yes, there are some other reasons than just the Linux community why Linux will probably never make it mainstream. I could probably write a whole book on that (if I had some better writing skills, that is). What it boils down to is that Linux' biggest advantage ("freedom") is also it's biggest shortcoming ("freedom") -- oh the irony...

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#11 by "Andy"
2000-07-13 23:07:53
andy@planetcrap.com
My immediate reaction to this was total agreement with Morn, but actually I'm not so sure. Kinda woke me up to something...

Open source: It's a good idea. Sure, the evangelists are a bit annoying at times because they go on and on and on about it, but when you think about it: So what? It's something they believe in passionately, and they're convinced it's the right thing to do. I'm convinced too, so I can't really dislike the people who are pushing for it.

The won't-help-newbies mob: Well now, Morn, I remember sending you quite a few e-mails a year ago asking for help when I was learning about Linux, and most of them went unanswered. :-)

And you know what, I don't even like it when my *parents* ask me about computer stuff, so I can totally understand why you wouldn't want to try and explain something about Linux to me. And I can understand why other people wouldn't want to either. In the end, I was 'forced' to learn the hard way, and for as far as I wanted to go, I *did* learn it. If I can do it, anyone can, so maybe the elitists have got the right attitude?

Here's a thought: While I was learning Linux, I asked lots of people lots of questions, and never got much of an answer beyond "try reading this page".

Eventually, everything I wanted to know about, apart from *one* thing, I managed to learn from web sites and books.

There was one thing that I couldn't find an answer to anywhere, and out-of-the-blue I wrote to someone who I didn't know, and who didn't know me, and he sent back a long, detailed explanation. So I'm happy to accept that if someone really does need help, instead of just being lazy, the Linux community *will* help.
#12 by "Rantage"
2000-07-13 23:16:02
rantage@hotmail.com http://www.steelmaelstrom.org
<b>#9</b> "12xu" wrote...
<QUOTE>
We have quite a few designers here who insist on using Macs...all I can say is you are on the money...
</QUOTE>

I'd like to qualify my statement by saying that I think Macs are good platforms for doing <B>some</B> things: digital video editing, graphic work, etc.

I just have to laugh, though, when I hear of people trying to run a web server off of a Mac, or try to pull off any kind of hack which normally you would find the PC or Linux crowd doing.  I tried writing Perl scripts on a Mac once.  Once.

I don't consider a Mac to be anywhere near as flexible as the Linux or (gasp!) Win32 platforms, due largely in part to the lack of available software and Apple's insistance that the nuts and bolts of the machine be hidden from the end user.

This makes it a <I>great</I> OS for kids and people who use a computer for nothing other than checking e-mail and surfing the Net.  I'm just not one of them. :)
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#13 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-07-13 23:17:46
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Andy :
<quote>In the end, I was 'forced' to learn the hard way, and for as far as I wanted to go, I *did* learn it. If I can do it, anyone can, so maybe the elitists have got the right attitude?</quote>

No, see, this is why Linux is never going to be a serious threat to Windows.  The average user (for example, my Dad) doesn't want to wade through manual pages looking for obscure settings to type into text files and so on just to get his new blah-blah wingding to work.  Or even to get the OS itself to install.

He wants to turn the computer on, have the disk whir for a few seconds, and be able to use the device.  That's what Windows provides (for the most part).  And that's what the VAST majority of people want.  I'm a capable computer user ... I've built my own computers, I've had jobs programming under *nix, and so on ... and I have no desire whatsoever to fight with Linux to get hardware installed.  None at all.

Microsoft knows this.  They give me what I want, by and large, and that's why they will always win over Linux for me ...

Any company that makes a development environment like VC++ can't be all bad.  ;)
#14 by "Morn"
2000-07-13 23:20:27
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#11</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>The won't-help-newbies mob: Well now, Morn, I remember sending you quite a few
e-mails a year ago asking for help when I was learning about Linux, and most of
them went unanswered. :-)
</quote>

You cheeky bastard. :)

</quote>
And you know what, I don't even like it
when my *parents* ask me about computer stuff, so I can totally understand why
you wouldn't want to try and explain something about Linux to me. And I can
understand why other people wouldn't want to either. In the end, I was 'forced'
to learn the hard way, and for as far as I wanted to go, I *did* learn it. If I
can do it, anyone can, so maybe the elitists have got the right attitude?</QUOTE>

The problem isn't that there are people out there who refuse to help newbies with problems/questions; everybody should be able to decide for himself if he wants to do it or not. The <b>problem</b> is that there are people who "hang out" in newsgroups and IRC channels where you're supposed to be able to get help as a newbie (well, I'm skeptical about the IRC channels *grin*), but who still tell everyone to basically RTFM. It gets outright nasty once the newbie in question starts getting mocked and flamed, which happens a <b>lot</b> of times in Usenet, <b>especially</b> the German groups, which are simply beyond nasty.

"Ask your question, we're here to help."
"[bla bla bla bla bla]?"
"Gawd yer dumb. Go read the fucking manual."

The second biggest problem is that a lot of the evangelists don't even know what they're talking about. Best examples: the "open source will cure world hunger" movement and the "Windows crashes 20 times a day" flank.

It's so delightful that a lot of the "Microsoft are evil" kids still need Windows to play Diablo 2 and Kingpin. Har.

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#15 by "Andy"
2000-07-13 23:23:03
andy@planetcrap.com
The only thing I've ever found a Mac to be better than a PC for is QuarkXPress, but that's only because the Windows version is too clumsy. It's XPress's fault, not Windows or the PC.

Photoshop on a Mac... very nice, thanks, but Photoshop on a PC is better.

Having said that, I've not done much with Macs apart from graphics and layout work, so my experience is limited to say the least. I've played around with basic system stuff and tried to get a net connection working, but I found the whole thing to be too complicated for its own good.

I've never been able to get online with a Mac, but I never had any problem doing it in Linux, even as a newbie. I'm not sure whether that makes Macs look bad, or it makes me look bad. Probably both.
#16 by "Morn"
2000-07-13 23:29:00
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Another funny twist of irony:

Linux evangelists usually seem to want "their" operating system to become an accepted alternative to Windows, while they loathe a lot of the things that made Windows a success (not including Microsoft's business tactics).

They want it to be easy and hard, open and closed, consistent and wildly customizable at the same time.

Oh please...

Maybe Linux will ultimately destroy and replace Windows? I bet you a hundred bucks that the same people who cry "Windows suxxx!" now would then be crying "Linux suxxx!", because they'll have found some other operating system that is way more stable and "cool" than the old dinosaur Linux.

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-07-13 23:31:25
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#11</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>Open source: It's a good idea. Sure, the evangelists are a bit annoying at times
because they go on and on and on about it, but when you think about it: So what?
It's something they believe in passionately, and they're convinced it's the
right thing to do. I'm convinced too, so I can't really dislike the people who
are pushing for it.

</QUOTE>

Companies/people worry about being able to make money under this scheme.  Thats my impression.

<b>#11</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>And I can understand why other people wouldn't want to either. In the end, I was
'forced' to learn the hard way, and for as far as I wanted to go, I *did* learn
it. If I can do it, anyone can, so maybe the elitists have got the right
attitude?

</QUOTE>

Self defeating.  It would be great if we didn't need police.  If everyone would act the proper way, we wouldn't.  So should we take them off all the street now and wonder why the hell people don't start acting civilized.  I mean, WTF, I can do, so anybody can.  Right?

<b>#11</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>There was one thing that I couldn't find an answer to anywhere, and
out-of-the-blue I wrote to someone who I didn't know, and who didn't know me,
and he sent back a long, detailed explanation. So I'm happy to accept that if
someone really does need help, instead of just being lazy, the Linux community
*will* help.
</QUOTE>

Its great for you personally.  But for my company?  If I'm working on a project, balls to the walls 20 hour days and my computer gets fucked up I can't afford to wait for some pricess to step down off here pedestal and smack me with a clue bat.

I <b>need</b> everything to be as simple as possible.  Thats where windows really gets you.  It may not be stable, it may be  a piece of crap, but productivity wise, its better.  You say, but ohh this is much better once you get it set up.  Gettin there is battle man.  If "gettin there" weren't a complete pain in the ass we wouldn't be using windows right?  What reson would you have?  If win and linux or whatever were just as easy to use and provided the same functionality with the same slope of the learning curve things wouldn't be the way they are.

The problem with the linux community is that they suffer from the techie syndrom.  Thats not knowing the proper balance between power and efficiency.

V


<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#18 by "12xu"
2000-07-13 23:34:04
mswitzer@insync.net http://http;//www.hichouston.org
<b>#15</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>I've never been able to get online with a Mac</QUOTE>


As I have been discovering lately the tcp/ip implementation on the mac is painful to deal with and in my opinion incomplete...

Having to install third party apps to do any kind of network troubleshooting is inexcusable...


I mean why put TCP/IP in the damn box if I can't ping or tracert or use any of the standard tcp/ip tools natively?

or is this the kind of thing that gets microsoft in trouble?

should I need a third party app to do anything other than get my screen up?

sorry..macs give me headaches...

12xu
out
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#19 by "Andy"
2000-07-13 23:37:50
andy@planetcrap.com
Hang on. ;-)

I'm in no way trying to put Linux ahead of Windows. I've not used Linux in months, and I can't even imagine a day when I'd use Linux instead of Windows (but that's due to software availability, not the OS itself).

I accept that Linux is superior in some ways, but ultimately I want an OS that is easy to use, looks pretty, let's me easily develop my own utilities and has Photoshop available. Windows gives me that, and more.

Just FYI, so nobody thinks I'm some anti-Windows nut.
#20 by "[KAG]formerly known as Seth"
2000-07-13 23:39:08
d_k_denz@hotmail.com http://www.aelk.org
sure, MS gives you what you want, but it doesn't give me what I want... I have the right to know what my computer does, which processes are running, what resources they need, etc...
Have you tried to run a firewall with IP-maskerading on a 486 with 8 Mb of Ram? Not to speak of the 14 Gb hard-drive which is mainly used as MP3-server(and avi) for our LAN.
Oh, I forgot: it's running a RogerWilco server too and handling 2 printers. MS couldn't get this to work(for free above all).

Sure Linux isn't as easy to use as MS-products, but if you want an easy-to-use Pc, buy a gameboy! Linux is for hackers, and it's obvious that they are proud of it. I myself only started my instruction on Linux; it shure isn't easy, but it's refreshening and extremely satisfying to see that you can make progress and that everything(well, almost) can be done as you want it.
Thankfully I live with an informatics student who takes care of admin stuff for our LAN, but if I clean the bathroom, he sure as hell helps me with any question I might have.
Most Linux users like to help but there are situations, where you have to answer with an RTFM, otherwhise, you just loose too much time repeating, what someone else has written a whole article about. If you try to explain Linux to someone who lacks even the slightest notions, well, good luck. The approach Andy took/was forced to take, is the best.
Linux should offer more preconfigured ready to run versions, but doing that would restrict its performance. It will be done though and if you consider the improvements in the latest distributions, it won't take too long, before MS has to watch its back (at last)

BTW: Kill Bill(not the MS-users)
#21 by "Andy"
2000-07-13 23:40:09
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#19</b>, Andy:

That was in response to Warren and Vengeance, btw.

Oh, and I'm not anti-Linux either, just to be clear. I have some 'issues' with Apple but for my limited purposes, I still think Macs are okay too.
#22 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-07-13 23:41:45
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Morn :
<quote>Maybe Linux will ultimately destroy and replace Windows? I bet you a hundred bucks that the same people who cry "Windows suxxx!" now would then be crying "Linux suxxx!", because they'll have found some other operating system that is way more stable and "cool" than the old dinosaur Linux.</quote>

This is what makes Linux zealots so amusing to me ... because you KNOW that if Linux DID take over and become the OS that the masses use, it would instantly become "evil" and whatever upstart was trying to unseat it would become the new peoples champion.  Blah.
#23 by "rei"
2000-07-13 23:48:25
quick!

name 5 CDR software programs for the mac!

...

there aren't any! just adaptec toast!

friggin' great eh?

(there's maybe 2 more obscure ones...but that's IT)
#24 by "brennan"
2000-07-13 23:49:32
scottsyoen@home.com
Morn said:
<quote>
I bet you a hundred bucks that the same people who cry "Windows suxxx!" now would then be crying "Linux suxxx!", because they'll have found some other operating system that is way more stable and "cool" than the old dinosaur Linux.
</quote>
I concur.  It's much the same when underground bands break out - suddenly, they're not the person's cool little secret; suddenly, EVERYONE likes them, and it doesn't feel personal anymore, and in order to define themselves in opposition to what they see as the drooling masses, the person rips on what's popular.  I saw this time and again when the alternative scene was big.

The technical merits of Linux aside, I just really can't be bothered right now to become as good with Linux as I am with Windows.  I'm a network administrator, and I'm learning more every day about Netware, NT, 2000, and 9x.  I just don't have time and don't care to make time to rip 8 billion Linux how-tos apart.  The Man is pumping out software that works just fine for me, and allows me to make a good living besides.

I think open source, as a philosophy, is very interesting and has a lot of validity.  If it's a better way to develop, as most open source advocates maintain, I believe it will eventually win out.  But the bottom line is, I really don't care if it's open or closed source; what matters to me is whether it does what I want it to with a minimum of suffering for all parties involved.  Right now, Windows does that and Linux doesn't.  If the situation changes, I probably will as well.  I just don't get why some people have such a hard time accepting this.

-brennan
#25 by "Baytor"
2000-07-13 23:50:52
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>Andy:</b>
<i>Just FYI, so nobody thinks I'm some anti-Windows nut. </i>

I cast thee out Linux whore.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#26 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-07-13 23:52:38
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#19</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>
Just FYI, so nobody thinks I'm some anti-Windows nut.
</QUOTE>

So, what kind o' nut are you?   :)

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#27 by "Baytor"
2000-07-13 23:53:27
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>Vengeance[CoD]:</b>

<i>So, what kind o' nut are you? :)</i>

Oh, now you're just being mean to Andy :)

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#28 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-07-13 23:58:32
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#27</b> "Baytor" wrote...
<QUOTE>

<B>Vengeance[CoD]:</B>

<I>So, what kind o' nut are you? :)</I>

Oh, now you're just being mean to Andy :)

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!</QUOTE>

No, I'm pulling his tale while hes pointed in the other direction ;)

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#29 by "[KAG]formerly known as Seth"
2000-07-13 23:58:58
d_k_denz@hotmail.com http://www.aelk.org
Morn:"It's so delightful that a lot of the "Microsoft are evil" kids still need Windows to play Diablo 2 and Kingpin. Har."

It's a pity. It's Hell on earth. Kind of a "dark fantasy" experience...

But we still don't pay for using Windows... I like paying my 35$ for a 6CD Linux distribution, cos the guys give a lot of support.
MS isn't that evil, Linux is a valid alternative, that still has to grow, but if you look at the progress it's making, well...
On the other hand, I don't see real progres with MS-products, mostly bug-hunting.I sure as hell prefer a system where I am the absolute ruler, where only I can mess things up( and sort'em out afterwards. Can anyone explain to me why I can't compile a MS-kernel specially suited to the machine I'm working with?? I use MS because the gaming industrie forces me to do so, it isn't the fault of MS, it just takes time and work to abolish a monopoly...and good things are worth waiting for.
#30 by "Baytor"
2000-07-14 00:00:02
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>Vengeance[CoD]:</b>
<i>No, I'm pulling his tale while hes pointed in the other direction ;) </i>

Okay, at post #28 I officially call this thread to be about Andy.  Please direct your comments on the current Windows/Linux debate somewhere else :)

Andy, it's all about luv, baby.


I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "avixe"
2000-07-14 00:00:59
Oh god, I must run away from this topic before my head explodes.
#32 by "Andy"
2000-07-14 00:04:32
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#29</b>, [KAG]formerly known as Seth:
<QUOTE>
I use MS because the gaming industrie forces me to do so, it isn't the fault of MS, it just takes time and work to abolish a monopoly...and good things are worth waiting for.
</QUOTE>
So how do you feel about (most obvious example, nothing personal) a company such as 3DR choosing not to support Linux because there's no immediate profit?

If every company takes that attitude, Linux will never be a gaming platform.

PR-wise, every game released on Linux is worth a hundred that aren't, so while Id deserves a huge HURRAH for their Linux ports, I'd say 3DR (or any other company, especially in the FPS market) that doesn't release a Linux porn should get at least a disapproving glance.
#33 by "Andy"
2000-07-14 00:05:54
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#32</b>, Andy:
<QUOTE>
doesn't release a Linux porn
</QUOTE>
Aagh, I did it again!
#34 by "Seven Tacos"
2000-07-14 00:06:34
kurto@asgaard.usu.edu
Yup, it's the Linux porn that is lacking.
#35 by "Baytor"
2000-07-14 00:07:58
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>Andy:</b>
<i>so while Id deserves a huge HURRAH for their Linux ports, I'd say 3DR (or any other company, especially in the FPS market) that doesn't release a Linux porn should get at least a disapproving glance. </i>

Okay, everyone, shoot a disaproving glance at George Broussard right now.

George, stop eating that baby this instant and feel the shame of a dozen gamers gazing down upon you.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#36 by "Admiral"
2000-07-14 00:07:58
klaas@meeno-impossible.de http://www.meeno-impossible.de
<B>Will Linux replace Windows some time?</B>
<B>No!</B> Why: Because Windows will *always* be ahead of Linux in terms of ease of use and support for various devices.

Or let me say it another way:

<B>Will Linux replace Windows 95/98/ME/NT Workstation/2K Pro?</B>
<B>No!</B> The end-user will always like to have an easy to use OS that supports all his geeky devices (transparent, slim USB-Webcams....) :)
and the administrator will allways like to have an easy to administer end-user system.

<B>Will Linux replace Windows NT Server/2k Server etc.</B>
<B>Yes!</B>I think Linux is THE coming Server OS. It's very stable, supports (nearly) everything a server needs,
all major software is available for free (well, most of) and it's highly configurable. Overall, I think all of UNIX is the best Server OS.
Windows has no built in script language, no real Cron daemon and so on... Well, yes, you can buy everything from third partys, but
it's costly. For Linux, all this is free.

Well, thats my opinion:
<I><B>Windows</B> to the desktop, <B>Linux</B> to the server!</I>

Klaas.
#37 by "kegie"
2000-07-14 00:09:33
kegie@acc.umu.se http://www.acc.umu.se/~kegie/
<B>#29</B> "[KAG]formerly known as Seth" wrote:
<QUOTE>
Can anyone explain to me why I can't compile a MS-kernel specially suited to the machine I'm working with??
</QUOTE>
Is that an argument? That you can't (or rather, don't have to) compile the kernel yourself? Come on! I wonder how many of these linux zealots actually have not only looked at the kernel source but also changed it.. It's one thing to "recompile" via scripts, but that's not recompiling at all, it's just switching options in a macrokernel, and being forced to do so sucks btw.
It's obvious why you don't get to compile the kernel yourself, and it's equally obvious that even if given the choice to do so, you wouldn't want to.
An operating system where the user can schmuck up things in the kernel source itself is a support nightmare, and the only reason this doesn't really hold true is because noone is actually doing it.

Face it, linux is good for what it is, but in the end I'm not interested in whether I payed for my OS or not. I'm a lot more interested in getting my programs running, and until linux can do that it's not an option for me. "Catch 22!" you scream. Yeah, so what?

--
kegie
#38 by "[KAG]formerly known as Seth"
2000-07-14 00:11:30
d_k_denz@hotmail.com http://www.aelk.org
it shure got that glance from me, but it takes some huge balls to such a thing. Some companies just aren't ready for it, but the first one to establish himself as Linux-friendly will have a huge advantage. I can understand 3DR's attitude, but I don't have to be happy or thank ful for their decision. I would be nice to see more Linux-related input from some developers *hint*, but they seem to prefer wasting their time with worthless discussions (most of them anyway) on boards like PC

/me ducks and resumes his studying
cu tomorrow
#39 by "Morn"
2000-07-14 00:13:45
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#32</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>So how do you feel about (most obvious example, nothing personal) a company such
as 3DR choosing not to support Linux because there's no immediate profit?

If every company takes that attitude, Linux will never be a gaming
platform.

PR-wise, every game released on Linux is worth a hundred that
aren't, so while Id deserves a huge HURRAH for their Linux ports, I'd say 3DR
(or any other company, especially in the FPS market) that doesn't release a
Linux porn should get at least a disapproving glance.
</QUOTE>

"Linux porn", huh. :)

Seriously -- I think you're overestimating the PR effect of a Linux version. I'd wager 90% of the customer base of an average mainstream PC title doesn't even know of Linux' existence, and of the remaining 10%, only 1% uses it or has at some point used it before.

If I was developing a game, and I was facing the decision about making a Linux port or not, I'd probably decide against it, unless I could easily afford to fund another couple of months of development time for "nothing", profit wise. I'd call it bona fide research work for the good of mankind, or something.

Unfortunately, a good business decision isn't always a good decision for everybody else.

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#40 by "Skid"
2000-07-14 00:18:15
skid@planetquake.com http://www.thepeel.com/void
I think most people fairly agree that Linux has a lot of merits when it comes to server side stuff.

The issue under consideration is how far it can do as a Desktop OS. There the obvious problem of dealing with annoying l33t kiddies. But disregarding even that, I just don't think that its for me. I can't stand having no file extensions and I can't stand having a weird archiac file system on my Desktop. bin/user/pub/etc/wtf ?? Yes, I know its silly, but it drives me nuts.

I'm the kind of person who would spend time renaming variables and types and indenting, prettifying code just so its a bit more readable and nicer aesthetically. And Linux, with its weird ass inconsistent GUIs, weird senseless naming schemes, and unreadable docs just drives me nuts =)
#41 by "Chris"
2000-07-14 00:19:49
chrislmelton@earthlink.net
You can probably skip all of this meandering by this quick lurkers summary:
Open sourcing is good for programmers who need access to the OS.
Win2K is stable and easy to install.
NT and linux are battles to set up.
TCP/IP is several protocols in one, Mac OS didn't use all the protocols.

I see the open sourcing of an operating system as being a greater benefit to a programmer than the average end user.  When you are writing an application that will constantly interact with the OS, it's nice to have the access to what the OS/kernel code looks like.  Even if MS were to open source, it's the support $$$ that would keep them in business and I doubt the having the OS open sourced would bankrupt them.  

I have SuSE linux 6.1 with the 2.2.15 kernel running on a laptop at home that I regularly use for UNIX classes I'm taking.  I've also put it on a PII450 to try and get some games up and running.  The laptop dual boots to NTWorkstation and linux.  The installation of both NT and linux were battles.  NT was the easier but still difficult.

Now along comes Windows2000 and I've been running that for 4 months now and it has been unbelievably stable.  Still, I have to boot over to Win98 (and even to DOS!) for some games I want to play and that's the only thing I'm not liking about Win2000.  I also have advanced server that I installed on a PII450Xeon and it's smooth but it's so much different than NTServer4 that I haven't gotten used to it yet.  

Macs cna be fun but are such brutes sometimes.  Don't forget that TCP/IP isn't just a single protocol, it's a suite of them and only parts of that suite made it into the Mac OS.  I helped out a friend of the family to try and get her new iMac hooked up to a local ISP and we went through 3 different ISPs to finally find one that didn't constantly bomb out with different TCP/IP problems on her mail and browser.  I would get constant errors (LDAP was one specific one I remember) and when I would call tech support with the specific TCP/IP error they never could figure what the problem was.  Neither could I exactly but it seemed that something wasn't right in the TCP/IP setup with the Mac or the ISP and on the 4th ISP she had no future problems.  Odd, eh?  

-C
back to lurkage
#42 by "Andy"
2000-07-14 00:24:43
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#39</b>, Morn:
<QUOTE>
Seriously -- I think you're overestimating the PR effect of a Linux version.
</QUOTE>
Oh no, I'm not meaning the PR value for the company that releases the Linux version. (I'll stick to 'version' from now on, I can spell that.)

There's undoubtedly a "feel good" factor for any company that releases on Linux, but I'm thinking of the PR value to the Linux community itself, ie:

Id releases Quake III Arena on Linux. The Linux proponents can say: "See! One of the biggest games is available on Linux! Linux is a gaming platform! Yay!"

But if 3DR doesn't release a Linux version of Duke, that's "just another game that isn't on Linux".

Game on Linux = HURRAH! LINUX ROCKS!
Game not on Linux = oh well, no big deal.
#43 by "JSHAW"
2000-07-14 00:27:44
JSHAW@carolina.rr.com
LINUX FREE?

Someone forgot to tell that to the stockperson in my local Wal-Mart, my copy of LINUX Mandrake 7.0 Complete cost me $39.00!

FREE? I think not...j/k
#44 by "Baytor"
2000-07-14 00:28:59
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>Andy:</b>
<i>Id releases Quake III Arena on Linux. The Linux proponents can say: "See! One of the biggest games is available on Linux! Linux is a gaming platform! Yay!"

But if 3DR doesn't release a Linux version of Duke, that's "just another game that isn't on Linux". </i>

To get away from being silly, I can see the big fish in the little pond analogy you're heading toward.  Anything released on Linux, even if it's Diakatana, will be a big deal.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#45 by "Morn"
2000-07-14 00:30:14
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#42</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>There's undoubtedly a "feel good" factor for any company that releases on Linux,
but I'm thinking of the PR value to the Linux community itself</QUOTE>

Oh, okay. Sorry, I thought you were talking about PR for the company. My mistake. And yes, that's right, it's good PR for Linux. No surprise a lot of the Linux zealots seem to worship John Carmack as one of their gods.

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#46 by "Valeyard"
2000-07-14 00:38:12
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
<b>#33</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>
<quote>
doesn't release a Linux porn
</quote>
Aagh, I did it again! </QUOTE>

Ya know...I work for Dell, so I've <i>seen</i> the UK keyboards.  I don't recall the 't' and 'n' being anywhere near each other.  Dvorak maybe?  I can't recall...it must be a Freudian slit. er, slip. :)

-Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#47 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-07-14 00:43:33
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
I personally don't see being able to recompile my OS's kernel an advantage.  If I was running a support department for an OS where users could change things and recompile the kernel, I would be committing suicide within a week.  :)
#48 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-07-14 00:49:23
rhiggi@home.com
{thinking}

We haven't been /.'d yet....  brace yourselves.

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#49 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-14 00:51:22
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
Theres an old saying, 'Anything thats free, is worth exactly what you pay for it'

Linux suffers from 'non central recognisable'

you have Mac ASE (accreditted service engineer), a friend in work just earned is Gold level

(hes a mac zealot, I wind him up almost as much as I wind the linux weenies)

you have MSCE (microsoft certified engineer)


you have CNE (certified Novell engineer)


and you have for linux .. um ... ah .. errrrrr, the local geek with too much free time to spend fucking around with an arcance os.

:)


ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "Morn"
2000-07-14 00:54:51
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#48</b> "Vengeance[CoD]" wrote...
<QUOTE>We haven't been /.'d yet.... brace yourselves.</QUOTE>

Or worse...

I've made backups. I'm prepared. :)

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
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