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T O P I C
If We Can Built In It, We Will Come
January 30th 2004, 03:05 CET by Dumdeedum

Making stuff in 3D is slow.  Even once you've dragged yourself up a painful learning curve.  Even once you've mastered a counter-intuitive interface.  Even once you've adopted the Approved Way Of Doing Things.  Even after all that it's still pretty damn sluggish.  Maybe there's no replacement for time and effort, but it doesn't mean things couldn't be simpler.

Epic and Valve both have full-time employees dedicated to working on their editors which means they have some of the best tools in the industry, but both are still largely mimicking the design ideas found in commercial 3D renderers.  So why not use third party software?  Why re-invent the torus when you could use something like Discreet GMax?  Not having to learn a whole new editor for each and every game certainly helps, but 3D modeling software tends to suffer from the same problems as game editors so it's no great gain.

How about the thought of walking through a huge warehouse, picking out doors, windows, tables, walls and suchlike to slot together a bit like a massive game of The Sims?  It sounds nice, and after all, movie directors don't personally build each bit of furniture in their movies so why should game makers?  But even without the copyright issues, prefab models have problems of varying levels of quality, clashing visual themes and incompatible filetypes.  Of course this doesn't invalidate copy & paste entirely, people are unlikely to care too much if the pot plant they're throwing at NPCs looks uncannily like the one they were throwing at NPCs five minutes ago.  But the never-ending-hell-of-yet-another-fucking-square-room that was Halo should stand as a dire warning to all that ctrl-v should be used carefully.  Well, apart from RPG makers.

There's a rather novel idea from the dirty, open-source hippies behind Cube.  Editing levels is done in the game itself, you press E and it toggles to an edit mode where you can fly about pushing and pulling surfaces about (much like the old Duke3D editor) which is nice but not revolutionary, the clever part is they've tied it into the multiplayer code so you can have, for want of a better word, multiediting.  Now I don't see public servers turning out works of levelling art, but a small team working simultaneously on different aspects of a map could theoretically boost creation time significantly.

So how do we take a sad song and make it better?  Can it be made better or is it just hard to model in 3D?  Will Valve's tastefully orange placeholder textures solve everything?  What's the future of level editing?  Is it all Warren's fault?
C O M M E N T S
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#1 by Ergo
2004-01-30 03:08:30
Seems my vote got this one in.

As for the topic, it sums up how I feel: I'd love to make my own levels, but I simply don't have the time to get past the steep learning curves of 3D editors. Considering the complexity involved in making a decent level, I really don't see how the process could ever be simple. There are too many variables to contend with.

Duff Man promises a lotta things. Oh, yeah!
DVDs
#2 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:12:00
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
WHATS UP
#3 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:12:07
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
3RD POST
#4 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:12:13
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
4TH
#5 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:12:18
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
5TH
#6 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:12:22
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
6TH
#7 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:12:26
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
7TH
#8 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:12:30
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
8TH
#9 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:12:34
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
9TH
#10 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:12:41
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
10TH
#11 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:13:07
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
I WIN
#12 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:13:27
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
YOU LOSE

OBVIOUSLY YOU WILL NOW BE SUCKED INTO THE BELLY OF TEH BEAST
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2004-01-30 03:14:12
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2004-01-30 03:14:28
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
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#15 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:14:48
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
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#16 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:15:13
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
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#17 by Post-It
2004-01-30 03:16:03
keithlee@speakeasy.net
I agree with Ergo. I think it would be keen to have some type of "Lego" style level designer with prefabricated parts, pieces, sets, etc. Sure they might not be the most original maps, but it would be fun to mess with.

Comment Signature
#18 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:16:06
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
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#19 by Creole Ned
2004-01-30 03:16:11
Everyone spam morn's mailbox, please.

I don't think creating custom content will ever be easy for 3D games, but a simpler "building blocks" approach might allow more people to create playable maps. Whether or not the resulting levels would be worth playing is another question. The current tools are just way, way beyond the casual player. This is in reference to first person shooters, of course.

"I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
#20 by BobJustBob
2004-01-30 03:16:51
I demand the return of voxels!

Dood.
#21 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:17:26
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
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CREOLE NED'S POST WILL VANISH

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#22 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:17:51
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
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#23 by Creole Ned
2004-01-30 03:17:57
Well, you would. :P

I'd like to see the tech level off and have a period where the tools and engines get a chance to mature and stabilize, myself.

"I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
#24 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:18:21
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
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CAPS LOCK IS LOCKED
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CAPS LOCK IS LOCKED
CAPS LOCK IS LOCKED
CAPS LOCK IS LOCKED
CAPS LOCK IS LOCKED
CAPS LOCK IS LOCKED
#25 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:18:59
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
WATCH BUILT FOR SPEED

YOU WILL CUM
#26 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:19:31
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
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#27 by "FAVICON"
2004-01-30 03:19:54
FAVICON@FAVICON.COM HTTP://WWW.FAVICON.COM
NOW YOUR TURN.
#28 by Bailey
2004-01-30 03:24:02
If level building were any easier, we'd have even more crappy user levels to slog through. It's bad enough as is, thank you very much.

Life without shame.
#29 by chris
2004-01-30 03:24:53
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
The problem with using an established 3D program to edit levels is that they're not equipped to do half of what a level editor does. In UnrealED, I can lay down geometry, texture it, add in sounds, add in lights, add in pathing, and see how it all will look/sound in the game, without having to launch the game.

3D Studio can certainly push the polys, no question, but I don't think it's really equipped to handle the amount of other information contained within those levels. I don't want to have to save and launch the game every time I place a new sound in my map just to check its volume.

The multiplayer level-editing thing sounds neat. Especially since we're moving more and more towards systems where worlds are built predominantly out of static meshes (see: UT2K3) rather than BSP blocks. A team of talented guys who were set lose inside an empty shell and told to decorate it could produce something pretty amazing, pretty quickly. You could even do it in waves based on the specialization of those people. One guy does the basic layout, another guy does a lighting pass, another guy does scripting, etc... and then everyone tweaks a bit here and there to get the final thing done.

-chris
#30 by Squeaky
2004-01-30 03:25:34
As much as I would love to build my own levels, I have to agree with Bailey.

Got throat problems? Why not try sucking on a Fisherman's Friend!
dvds
#31 by Dethstryk
2004-01-30 03:27:37
jemartin@tcainternet.com
Welcome to the world of prefabs and whatever-else the UnrealED stuff is doing nowadays. It's not the most complicated shit in the world, but I'd rather throw in a whatever (mesh?) because I can actually pull that off.

sunny days have funny ways of quieting the roar
#32 by Darkseid-D
2004-01-30 03:50:44
rogerboal@hotmail.com
As I recall, Half life 2 is supposed to ship with an online `warehouse` of items map makers can put in their levels from desks to light fittings to vehicles.  New models created by the `community` can be uploaded and if they pass whatever guidelines Valve has in place, theyre uploaded for all to use.

Do not go gently into that good night.
Old age should burn and rage at the close of day.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
#33 by LPMiller
2004-01-30 04:08:10
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
I swear we've had this conversation before...didn't we?

I believe I can fly......urk.
#34 by Neo-Reaper
2004-01-30 04:18:05
neoreaper@excite.com http://octobermoon.homeip.net
You know, I seem to remember the old Doom map editors being much harder to use than the current 3D ones.  However, Duke3D's was fairly simple and easy to use.

I haven't done any map editing with UT2k3, is it really mostly static meshes pieced together?  Because I find that pretty impressive.  Has this led to an increase in output in/or quality from the community?

"Dream of me... and maybe, just maybe, this nightmare will end."
#35 by chris
2004-01-30 04:34:43
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Doom editing was what the french refer to as "a massive fucking pain in the ass"

-chris
#36 by Sgt Hulka
2004-01-30 04:47:13
I find level creation rewarding, but there are many headaches and nights where I cry myself to sleep after losing hours or work to a buggy editor.  The tools are not perfect, but it's still fun to make games.  If it weren't I'd be stalking full time.

He's the worst kind of stupid, the accepting kind.
#37 by Terata
2004-01-30 04:51:02
To some degree this is the direction we went with the world tools in Horizons.  You log in with an appropriately permissioned character, open up the tools window, and can add/move objects, modify their settings, change the terrain and its texturing, etc all you like.  Save your changes and they're written to the database, then those changes are propagated out to any other clients nearby within a few seconds.

In practice this works well, but has its pitfalls, mostly in that proper versioning and auto-updating took some doing to get reliable.  It works particularly well with objects, where other users being in the same area making changes is genuinely transparent (unless they're messing with the same object as you are).  Terrain is another story, as two users in the same area changing it could cause seams at sector borders, but that's more just a matter of not messing with it if somebody else is.  Aside from allowing a single user to 'lock' access to a specific area's terrain, there's nothing much reasonable that could be done there.

Still, I've had three or four people all making changes to the same area at the same time before, and it's held up pretty well in practice.
#38 by Duality
2004-01-30 05:01:09
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
Perhaps I just never looked at 3D map making very closely, but when I tried making Quake maps (using a Worldcraft tutorial), I thought it was infinitely more difficult than making a simple Doom map.
#39 by Squeaky
2004-01-30 05:07:40
Isn't making NWN maps supposedly easy? I couldn't make heads nor tails out of it (aside from making a square room loaded with the best equipment in the game).

Got throat problems? Why not try sucking on a Fisherman's Friend!
dvds
#40 by Bailey
2004-01-30 05:09:22
The scripting is a pain in the ass, but yeah, actual map-making is a breeze... which is why the cream of the crop missions in the mod community are pretty ho-hum. Easy to work with the existing materials, but quite difficult to do something new.

Life without shame.
#41 by Duality
2004-01-30 05:16:57
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
NWN's mapmaking is, essentially, the prefab workshop to place things.

I remember making a nice town square where I'd have a romantic interlude with Aribeth.

I couldn't script love, though.
#42 by chris
2004-01-30 05:22:40
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Only god can script love.

God and my good friend, Mr. Hard Liquor.

-chris
#43 by Post-It
2004-01-30 05:25:16
keithlee@speakeasy.net
Lpmiller, yeah we had almost this exact same topic/conversation like a year ago or so and someone came down hard against all the "lego" style map editor ideas and we went into a big arguement for a few hundred posts. Sounds familiar....I wonder who that was?

Comment Signature
#44 by LPMiller
2004-01-30 05:57:19
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Ok, just wanted to make sure I wasn't high or something.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#45 by Warren Marshall
2004-01-30 06:02:40
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#0
Is it all Warren's fault?

Yes.

"Cheap Garbage Disposal Canít Handle Femur"
#46 by Squeaky
2004-01-30 06:06:00
#45 Warren Marshall
#0
Is it all Warren's fault?

Yes.

everything is your fault

Got throat problems? Why not try sucking on a Fisherman's Friend!
dvds
#47 by Warren Marshall
2004-01-30 06:07:11
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
GMax and the like look nice on the surface, but once you start trying to really use them for production levels it all falls apart.  Level designers don't want to UV map every poly in their map.  They want to throw a texture on the wall (having the editor assign it a nice default mapping), quickly pan/rotate/scale it into place and move on.  Anything more than that is a hinderence to productivity.

Plus, with something like Max or Maya, how do you place lights?  Actors?  Static meshes?  You can't.  So you're going to find yourself inside of a proprietary editor at some point.  Might as well just start there and save yourself the trouble.

Now, Max type programs excel at creating static meshes, which is what we use them for at Epic.  The artists crank out high quality static mesh pieces that the level designers can  use from within UnrealEd.  This is a major productivity boost (once the static mesh sets are built, of course) and the LDs can focus on how to make the level look good and not on mapping textures to polygons or trying to build 3,000 polygon decoration pieces to go on the walls.

"Cheap Garbage Disposal Canít Handle Femur"
#48 by Dethstryk
2004-01-30 06:25:27
jemartin@tcainternet.com
I just want UT2K4 to have more levels with ledges and high places so I can kill someone and watch their body teeter over the edge. I love physics engines.

sunny days have funny ways of quieting the roar
#49 by UncleJeet
2004-01-30 06:57:40
As a cautionary aside, Nocturne's levels were built in 3ds.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#50 by crash
2004-01-30 08:46:07
Question regarding level editors that have been included with games: Have any of these editors ever been designed to be a UI-friendly editor first, and a professional tool second? Or are they designed as developer tools first and foremost?

All the ones I've ever seen and/or used have had that unpolished you-can-practically-hear-the-tools-coder-talking-over-your-shoulder, "Yeah, okay, it works, and it'll crash if you do this and you gotta go that way through the menus or it reboots the machine and oh yeah for the love of God never hit Ctrl+Alt+D; that'll rewrite the MBR but I don't have time to figure out why, so just don't fuck with it okay thanks any questions drop me an email I gotta code some more content stuff now bye" look and feel to 'em... but with a semi-pretty front end.

By this time tomorrow we can be doing BODY SHOTS off HOOKERS in some MEXICAN HELLHOLE
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