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T O P I C
God damn, it's a can o' spam!
July 8th 2000, 23:42 CEST by andy

I'm not sure whether this is a legal or an ethical matter, but let's hear your views on it...



Several months ago I started receiving some spam. Just one or two e-mails each day, but it's even more annoying than that usual spam because it's written in Spanish, so there's ABSOLUTELY NO POINT sending me it.

You might remember that back in May we covered the so-called Aureate "spyware" software which is installed along with hundreds of products such as GetRight, Go!Zilla and CuteFTP. (Here's a list of other products.) Well guess what -- at the end of each of the Spanish e-mails is an advert saying that it was sent with another of Aureate's wonderful inventions -- the Group Mail spamming software.

So the situation now is that I'm receiving a few dozen spam mails each month, I've got no idea what they're about and no idea who is sending them, but I do know which company created the bulk-mail software.

Here's my question...

Shooting victims can sue gun manufacturers. Smokers can sue tobacco companies. Should people be able to sue companies like Aureate that produce spamming software?

C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: God damn, it's a can o' spam!

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#1 by "Andy"
2000-07-08 23:45:33
andy@planetcrap.com
Second post!
#2 by "Eric"
2000-07-08 23:46:32
psyman9@bellatlantic.net
No.
#3 by "Ian"
2000-07-08 23:46:35
terrencelaukkanen@hotmail.com
No because as of yet, spam is not illegal, unfortunatly.

By the way, its unfair to "first post" to your own topic.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#4 by "Eric"
2000-07-08 23:47:03
psyman9@bellatlantic.net
Darn.  That was what I was trying to prevent!
#5 by "Eric"
2000-07-08 23:50:06
psyman9@bellatlantic.net
Spam just seems simular to "Junk Mail".  I throw junk mail away just as I "throw away" spam.  I'd like to see them both go away but I don't think that is going to happen any time soon.  I'd much rather get rid of telemarketers and such.
#6 by "MoNo"
2000-07-08 23:50:26
monoton@online.no
Its illegal were i live:)
Sometimes the politicians get some stuff right<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#7 by "Apache"
2000-07-09 00:00:22
apache@warzone.com http://www.unrealuniverse.com
I get over a dozen spam letters a day, I hate them. DIE, SPAMMERS, DIE!
#8 by "Whisp"
2000-07-09 00:03:13
whisp@vt.edu
<b>#3</b> "Ian" wrote...
<QUOTE>
No because as of yet, spam is not illegal, unfortunatly.

By the way,
its unfair to "first post" to your own topic.</QUOTE>
But neither are guns (in the US at least) or tobacco - and yet law suits can still be won.

Personally, I don't think we have gotten to the stage where we need to have lawsuits against spamming software makers.  Making spam illegal (I include RL junk mail in this category - much like unsolicited telemarketing) or at least subject to civil penalties might be a positive step though.  I have mixed feelings about the benefits of suing manufacturers of products, rather than the users.  There needs to be pretty clear evidence of wrongdoing first - and in this case I don't think it's there.

-Whisp
#9 by "Andy"
2000-07-09 00:03:14
andy@planetcrap.com
Some CNN stories...

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/06/09/amend.spam.idg/index.html">First Amendment is obstacle to spam legislation</a>
<quote>
Under Wilson's bill, each consumer could sue a spammer as much as $50,000, while ISPs could sue violators $1 per e-mail and up to $50,000 per day.
</quote>
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/05/16/euro.spam.idg/">Europe cracks down on spam</a>
<quote>
Under a draft text that must still be finalized, the Commission plans to ban the sending of all e-mail to subscribers who have not indicated that they want to receive such e-mail.
</quote>
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/04/06/chinese.spam.idg/index.html">China seen as a growing source of spam</a>
<quote>
"China is a big black hole -- if you write a complaint it will be ignored," said Steve Atkins, founder of SamSpade.org, a Web site that provides tools for tracking the origin of spam.
</quote>
That last one is probably most relevant to the topic. If you can't track down the spammers, and you can't contact/stop the ISP's, should you be able to go after the companies that make the software?
#10 by "Barbarian"
2000-07-09 00:26:21
conanford@yahoo.com http://www.barbarian.iwarp.com/
You think that's bad?  How about this?

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/07/01/1252210&mode=thread

"DoubleClick 'Web Bugs' On Porn, Medical Sites"

Basically, Doubleclick collects info on what pages of what sites you visit, with 1x1 images that you never see (so you don't realize it), then sell the info.

A good excerpt from one of the comments:

<quote><i>While DoubleClick does indeed record, [it] does not know that room 5 is equivalent to girls home alone." This explanation comes down to saying that while DoubleClick collects the information, it does not have the technical skill to understand it an assertion that Smith and others nd hard to believe.</i>

The problem is, while they don't have the knowledge to link room 5 with girl-girl fetish porn, some *other* company would have no problem doing it. As we all remember, DoublClick has no problem "allying" itself with other companies; at least until their stock price plummets.</quote>
#11 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-09 00:31:45
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
I get spam in various languages

its infuriatingly annoying, especially when they start trolling message boards and using those


yep, youve guessed it, Ive gotten spam coming through on my Planetcrap account


*sigh*


Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#12 by "None-1a"
2000-07-09 00:42:36
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#9</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>That last one is probably most relevant to the topic. If you can't track down
the spammers, and you can't contact/stop the ISP's, should you be able to go
after the companies that make the software? </QUOTE>

Bepends on what the software was created for, for example Aureate software is designed for spaming, while some buisness e-mail packages can be used to spam there normal use would be e-mailing memos to every one in a company. The problem is that it'd be damn hard to deside on what it was originaly created for.

BTW doesn't Aureate make software to stop spam as well, maybe their trying to keep them selves in buisness no matter what by covering both sides of the thing.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#13 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-07-09 01:24:38
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#5</b> "Eric" wrote...
<QUOTE>

Spam just seems simular to "Junk Mail". I throw junk mail away just as I "throw away" spam. I'd like to see them both go away but I don't think that is going to happen any time soon. I'd much rather get rid of telemarketers and such. </QUOTE>

Unfortunately there is a lot of people around the world who pay highly for connection and thus pay to receive electronic junk mail<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#14 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-07-09 01:25:34
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>Shooting victims can sue gun manufacturers. Smokers can sue tobacco companies. Should people be able to sue companies like Aureate that produce spamming software?</quote>
No, though I can sorta see why people are upset. I personally have never had much of a problem hitting the "Delete" key to get rid of spam, though I'd rather not have to do it at all.

But to look at the comparisons, the main different is that tobacco companies, for example, have allegedly (hi libel laws) been lying to consumers about nicotine and chemical additives.

People shouldn't be able to sue gun manufacturers, period. I don't think those lawsuits have merit, and I'm not a pro-gun person (though I'm also not necessarily anti-gun).

And if Aureate makes spamming software, so long as they're not lying to anyone and not doing anything illegal, there would be no grounds upon which to sue.
#15 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-07-09 01:28:27
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>Unfortunately there is a lot of people around the world who pay highly for connection and thus pay to receive electronic junk mail </quote>
Sure, and don't you think you pay more for US mail because of the large volume of direct mail the postal service needs to handle?

Ultimately consumers pay for ALL forms of marketing, whether it's spam or print ads or TV commercials, in the form of higher prices.
#16 by "None-1a"
2000-07-09 01:44:28
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#15</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<QUOTE>Sure, and don't you think you pay more for US mail because of the large volume
of direct mail the postal service needs to handle?

Ultimately consumers
pay for ALL forms of marketing, whether it's spam or print ads or TV
commercials, in the form of higher prices. </QUOTE>

Steve I think he meant places like the UK where phone companies change per-minite for every thing (there are some areas in the US where your local phone bill it done like this, thank god I've got cable). That causes a direct change to them for access time even if they never buy the service that is being sent to them, a little different the normal marketing when you only pay if your buy it (say I see a Ford ad I only pay for that if I buy a car, if they spamed be I'd pay for it even if I didn't buy one).

Funny I barly pay to send mail any more (online bill payments are free via the credit union I use).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-07-09 01:58:01
piramida@agsm.net http://www.agsm.net
Post <b>#7</b> by Apache:
<QUOTE><i> I get over a dozen spam letters a day, I hate them. DIE, SPAMMERS, DIE! </i></QUOTE>

I found a good way to fight spammers - check out spamcop.net. It's pretty easy to paste the spam email into a form and watch the spammer goes down. Nothing beats this feeling :) If more people with clue would start fighting spam not just deleting it, spammers would have hard time finding new ISPs for each of the mass mailings. I found that it actually works pretty well, never received second spam message from the same ISP after reporting it.

The most annoying ones are the ones with "click <insert some idiotic link> to be removed. This is not spam under <insert some idiotic law reference> because you have the way to remove yourself from further mailings" at the bottom. What do they, think everyone is an idiot?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#18 by "Valeyard"
2000-07-09 02:04:38
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
Don't know if I'm on ignore or not...but here goes:

From the topic:
<QUOTE>Shooting victims can sue gun manufacturers. Smokers can sue tobacco companies. Should people be able to sue companies like Aureate that produce spamming software?
</QUOTE>

Can != Should

If you say, "Can people sue Aureate?"  The answer is, "sure".
"Shoud they" and "Should they be able to" are completely different questions.

Should shooting victims sue gun manufacturers?  No. (IMO)
Should smokers sue tobacco companies? No. (IMO)
Should people sue Aureate? No. (IMO)

Should they be able to sue any of these companies?  Definitely, though I think the requirements should be changed regarding precisely <b>what</b> they can sue them for.  The key is that they "should" be able to sue them, but not for the reasons that people typically sue.  Sue them for various other legal reasons, but not because someone died because of one of their products.

For the confused - you should be able to sue if someone dies/suffers due to a faulty product or malfunction...NOT when it's the result of the normal use of the product.  Tobacco kills, guns kill, spam annoys...that's just the way it is.

-Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#19 by "Dethstryk"
2000-07-09 02:14:15
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>#17</b> "PiRaMidA" wrote...
<QUOTE>I found a good way to fight spammers - check out spamcop.net.</QUOTE>
This is great. I just filed my first spam report, and I can't wait to see how this works. :)


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#20 by "Ian"
2000-07-09 02:14:44
terrencelaukkanen@hotmail.com
Valeyard in #18:

This is the exact same thing that I said in Reference to charlies question towards the end of the "Not-so-Intellectual Property" thread: That because you can copyright or register something doesn't mean you should. In reply you stated that

<quote>
If they legally can do it, how could I possible object?
</quote>

You could object the same way you did here: Can is not the same thing as should

I think that suing tobacco companies is a different animal than suing, say, a gun manufacturer. If you are suing big tobacco, you presumedly made the decision to smoke. You could have made the decision to stop. With Spam, you can't just decide that you don't want to get it anymore, like you can do with smoking. I say, its your own god-damned fault for getting lung cancer (unless its second hand smoke), so quit bitching about the tobacco companies killing you.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#21 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-09 02:16:45
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
even more fun

those 'forward this msg to everyone on your contact list or ICQ will delete your uin'

or  'Help find little Joey Bigsnatch from bumfuck idaho'

or 'Please forward this longest running email'


bah


Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#22 by "None-1a"
2000-07-09 02:16:45
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#17</b> "PiRaMidA" wrote...
<QUOTE>The most annoying ones are the ones with "click <insert some idiotic link>
to be removed. This is not spam under <insert some idiotic law reference>
because you have the way to remove yourself from further mailings" at the
bottom. What do they, think everyone is an idiot?</QUOTE>

What I love it what they accatuly do with those, you don't get remove from any thing all it does is tell them your reading the message (that's why the message if broken up and put at the top and bottom), they then label your address as receptive and send you more crap.

And about reporting it to the ISP, it works if the ISP is there normal one (all I get any more is from Insert random number@insert any free mail service.com)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#23 by "Andy"
2000-07-09 02:19:27
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#11</b>, Darkseid-[D!]:
<QUOTE>
yep, youve guessed it, Ive gotten spam coming through on my Planetcrap account
</QUOTE>
The Spanish spam (Spamish?) is coming through my 'Crap account.


<b>#12</b>, None-1a:
<QUOTE>
BTW doesn't Aureate make software to stop spam as well, maybe their trying to keep them selves in buisness no matter what by covering both sides of the thing.
</QUOTE>
There's a conspiracy theory right there. ;-)


--

On a totally different subject...

Do we have any authors here? Either published or not.

The reason I ask...

I've been working on the research for a book for the last year or so, on and off. (Mostly off.) I've had a few trial starts at writing it over the last month just to get an idea of what direction it was going in, but today was The Big Day to start it properly.

God it sucks. :(

Does anyone here actually *enjoy* writing?

Do you enjoy the process of sitting down at a word processor / typewriter / sheet of paper / whatever and telling the story?

I hate it, I really do. I enjoy research to some extent, and of course I like the feeling of accomplishment when I finish something and when people read it, but I don't enjoy writing at all. Even when it goes well (which today did) it's still a horrible, frustrating experience.

Just wondering if anyone else can relate to this...?
#24 by "None-1a"
2000-07-09 02:20:50
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#21</b> "Darkseid-[D!]" wrote...
<QUOTE>

even more fun
those 'forward this msg to everyone on your contact list or ICQ will delete your uin'
or 'Help find little Joey Bigsnatch from bumfuck idaho'
or 'Please forward this longest running email'
bah


Ds</QUOTE>

Dark those are fun, espicaly how they always come from a close family member (makes it harder to say to cut it the hell out). <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#25 by "Andy"
2000-07-09 02:24:55
andy@planetcrap.com
Stupid spam:

Those ones that advertise collections of e-mail addresses, and rave on about how they have been carefully selected to ensure the highest possible chance of success.

Obviously they haven't been carefully selected at all, otherwise I wouldn't be getting it.

I can't wait for this to drop in my mailbox...
<quote>
Having trouble with unsolicited commercial e-mail?
Try the new fool-proof anti-spam system from blah blah...
</quote>
#26 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-09 02:35:54
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
Fun ?

try having 100ish people on your list

and get the same fuckin message from 20 of them

'warning this new virus will shag your dog, steal all your money from your bank accounr and mail it to Janet Reno, destroy your Tv license and cause your microwave to play Burt Bacharach songs at 2am'


bah.


Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#27 by "Apache"
2000-07-09 02:41:18
apache@warzone.com http://www.unrealuniverse.com
<quote>Does anyone here actually *enjoy* writing? </quote>

I <b><i>love</b></i> writing.
#28 by "None-1a"
2000-07-09 02:41:26
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#23</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>There's a conspiracy theory right there. ;-) </QUOTE>

You seam to like running with scissors so I'm giveing you the scissors :-)

<b>#25</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>Having trouble with unsolicited commercial e-mail?
Try the new fool-proof
anti-spam system from blah blah...
</QUOTE>

Belive it or not I've got that one before.

Now on to the writing thing, I agree with you the research is fun. O any one know of a nice short e-mail netiquette (e-mailiquette?) guide, about a paragraph or to long. I'd like to send it to my fwd-fedish mom (need some thing with a web address I could quote from), should help with my concus problem of telling her to fucking stop it. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#29 by "Talion"
2000-07-09 02:44:46
talion6@hotmail.com
<b>#23</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>
Do we have any authors here? Either published or not.

The reason I ask...

I've been working on the research for a book for the last year or so, on and off. (Mostly off.) I've had a few trial starts at writing it over the last month just to get an idea of what direction it was going in, but today was The Big Day to start it properly.

God it sucks. :(

Does anyone here actually *enjoy* writing?

Do you enjoy the process of sitting down at a word processor / typewriter / sheet of paper / whatever and telling the story?

I hate it, I really do. I enjoy research to some extent, and of course I like the feeling of accomplishment when I finish something and when people read it, but I don't enjoy writing at all. Even when it goes well (which today did) it's still a horrible, frustrating experience.

Just wondering if anyone else can relate to this...?
</QUOTE>

I do a lot of writing, and I'm not sure exactly how to answer your question.  When things are going well, though, when I can sit down and slam out 15 pages of (for me) good writing, I really enjoy it.  It's all those other days, when it comes with difficulty, that I don't really enjoy it.

If you asked me if I liked writing, I'd say I love writing.  But I don't love hammering out the words, what I like is figuring out how I'll tell the story.  Then taking what's in my mind and actually translating that into words etc., well, that's work.  That's why I absolutely despise technical writing.  You don't get to have any fun, but you still do all the work.

Dunno if that made any sense, but there you are.

I once read a book on writing by a relatively famous author who said that if you get the urge to write a book, take some advil, lie down on the couch, and wait until it passes.  If it doesn't pass, then maybe you should give it a try.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "Andy"
2000-07-09 02:46:11
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#27</b>, Apache:
<QUOTE>
I <B><I>love</B></I> writing.
</QUOTE>
Fiction?

(Not that I enjoy writing non-fiction either. I hate writing pretty much everything.)
#31 by "Apache"
2000-07-09 02:48:59
apache@warzone.com http://www.unrealuniverse.com
Andy: Yes, I am in fact starting a new fiction project which you can read about on <A HREF="http://www.unrealuniverse.com">Unreal Universe</a>.

I enjoy writing poetry, verse, fiction, non fiction, news, pretty much anything. :)
#32 by "Whisp"
2000-07-09 02:50:54
whisp_@hotmail.com
I hate forwards.  I consider them kill-on-site.  That said, this is the funniest forward I've ever received.  I've been really tempted to send it to some of the people I know, but I don't think they'd get the message.  They'd probably take it as a request for more of the dumb jokes they've been sending me.

<QUOTE>
 IT'S TRUE! I READ IT ON E-MAIL!

 I was on my way to the post office to pick up my case of free M&M's (sent to me because I forwarded an e-mail to five other people, celebrating the fact that the year 2000 is "MM" in Roman numerals), when I ran into a friend whose neighbor, a young man, was home recovering from having been served a rat in his bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken (which is predictable, since as everyone knows, there's no actual chicken in Kentucky Fried Chicken, which is why the government made them change their name to KFC).

 Anyway, one day this guy went to sleep and when he awoke he was in his bathtub and it was full of ice and he was sore all over and when he got out of the tub he realized that HIS KIDNEY HAD BEEN STOLEN. He saw a note on his mirror that said "Call 911!" but he was afraid to use his phone because it was connected to his computer, and there was a virus on his computer that would destroy his hard drive if he opened an e-mail entitled "Join the crew!"

 He knew it wasn't a hoax because he himself was a computer programmer who was working on software to prevent a global disaster in which all the computers get together and distribute the $250.00 Neiman-Marcus cookie recipe under the leadership of Bill Gates. (It's true - I read it all last week in a mass e-mail from BILL GATES HIMSELF, who was also promising me a free Disney World vacation and $5,000 if I would forward the e-mail to everyone I know.)

 The poor man then tried to call 911 from a pay phone to report his missing kidneys, but a voice on the line first asked him to press #90, which unwittingly gave the bandit full access to the phone line at the guy's expense. Then reaching into the coin-return slot he got jabbed with an HIV-infected needle around which was wrapped a note that said, "Welcome to the world of AIDS."

 Luckily he was only a few blocks from the hospital - the one where that little boy who is dying of cancer is, the one whose last wish is for everyone in the world to send him an e-mail and the American Cancer Society has agreed to pay for every e-mail he receives. I sent him two e-mails and one of them was a bunch of x's and o's in the shape of an angel (if you get it and forward it to more than 10 people, you will have good luck but for 10 people only you will only have OK luck and if you send it to fewer than 10 people you will have BAD LUCK FOR SEVEN YEARS).

 So anyway the poor guy tried to drive himself to the hospital, but on the way he noticed another car driving without its lights on. To be helpful, he flashed his lights at him and was promptly shot as part of a gang initiation.

 Send THIS to all the friends who send you their junk mail and you will receive 4 green M&Ms - if you don't, the owner of Proctor and Gamble will report you to his satanist friends and you will have more bad luck: you will get sick from the Sodium Laureth Sulfate in your shampoo, your spouse will develop a skin rash from using the antiperspirant which clogs the pores under your arms, and the U.S. government will put a tax on your e-mails forever.

 I know this is all true 'cause I read it on my e-mail!
</QUOTE>
#33 by "Talion"
2000-07-09 02:56:35
talion6@hotmail.com
<b>#31</b> "Apache" wrote...
<QUOTE>
I enjoy writing poetry, verse, fiction, non fiction, news, pretty much anything. :)
</QUOTE>

Ever done technical or business writing?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#34 by "Andy"
2000-07-09 02:58:12
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#31</b>, Apache:
<QUOTE>
Andy: Yes, I am in fact starting a new fiction project which you can read about on <A href="http://www.unrealuniverse.com">Unreal Universe</A>.
</QUOTE>
You must be mad. :)

Best of luck, though. You should consider yourself lucky if you can enjoy it.

How come you're no longer working at GameFan?
#35 by "Whisp"
2000-07-09 03:01:32
whisp_@hotmail.com
<b>#20</b> "Ian" wrote...
<QUOTE>I think that suing tobacco companies is a different animal than suing, say, a
gun manufacturer. If you are suing big tobacco, you presumedly made the decision
to smoke. </QUOTE>

The way I understand it, the thrust of the lawsuits is not that the smokers got sick from using tobacco, it's that the tobacco companies repeatedly said that cigarrettes DON'T cause disease.  Not only that, but they suppressd or destroyed any evidence to the contrary, including research they themselves did.  A good parallel would be a car company selling a car that has a 1 in 10 chance of exploding every 1000 miles, while claiming that there is no evidence that their cars tend to explode for no reason.

That said, I'm still not sure I agree with the tobacco lawsuits, since the drawbacks of smoking have been known or suspected for a long time.  I can remember seeing a quote by an Englishman from about the time tobacco was introduced to Europe.  I think the gist of it was that smoking was a dirty, unhealthful habit.  Whether that was just his opinion, or people had already started to notice some of the respiratory problems smoking causes, I don't know.  The bottom line is that I think claiming you didn't know cigarettes could hurt you is a bit disingenuous.

-Whisp
#36 by "Apache"
2000-07-09 03:01:35
apache@warzone.com http://www.unrealuniverse.com
<quote>Ever done technical or business writing?</quote>

Not really, unless you count strategy oriented writing.

<quote>How come you're no longer working at GameFan? </quote>

Heh, that's for a <b>whole</b> different thread. Would you believe I quit so I could go pro playing Diablo 2 on battle.net? ;)
#37 by "Andy"
2000-07-09 03:02:24
andy@planetcrap.com
BTW, Apache, does this mean I can post the next GameFan topic without you thinking it's personal? ;-)
#38 by "Paul"
2000-07-09 03:02:46
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
I get about 20 emails of junk a week. It seems that almost every week I also receive an email with the deal "send us $50, and we will send you 6 million email addresses for free"

At least they aren't cutting down trees to send the info too me..

- Paul
#39 by "Sgt Hulka"
2000-07-09 03:03:42
sgt_hulka@yahoo.com http://www.hulka.com
Andy, yes, I'm a published Author of a dozen or so Strategy Guides for games.

I can totally relate!
#40 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-07-09 03:04:03
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#36</b> "Apache" wrote...
<QUOTE>Would you believe I quit so I could go pro playing Diablo 2 on battle.net? ;)

</QUOTE>

Strangely enough I think we would believe that :P<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#41 by "Morn"
2000-07-09 03:05:55
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<quote>Shooting victims can sue gun manufacturers. Smokers can sue tobacco companies. Should people be able to sue companies like Aureate that produce spamming software?</quote>

Why <i>them</i>? I think we should find the people who invented TCP/IP and sue <i>them</i>. It's all <i>their</i> fault! After all, TCP/IP is used not only for spamming, but for all sorts of other evil stuff. Like illegal digital copies of music! Also, we should sue the TV stations around the world, because they're allowing companies to reach millions of people with their advertising lies.

In fact, I think we should just sue <i>everybody</i>, you know, just to make sure. :)

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#42 by "Morn"
2000-07-09 03:07:19
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#36</b> "Apache" wrote...
<QUOTE>Heh, that's for a <B>whole</B> different thread. Would you believe I quit so I
could go pro playing Diablo 2 on battle.net? ;)</QUOTE>

If we hadn't talked on ICQ just a couple of hours ago, I'd have to say: Yes. :)

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#43 by "Andy"
2000-07-09 03:07:30
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#36</b>, Apache:
<QUOTE>
Heh, that's for a <B>whole</B> different thread. Would you believe I quit so I could go pro playing Diablo 2 on battle.net? ;)
</QUOTE>
Can I just say a hesitant "hmmm"? :)


Hulka,

Damn! I forgot all about your strategy guides. Now *that* is something I can respect. How the hell anyone can have the patience and discipline to write a dozen of those is beyond me...
#44 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-09 03:10:28
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
I think we should sue Mr0n for formenting unrest by suggesting we sue everyone....


*snicker*

ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#45 by "None-1a"
2000-07-09 03:10:42
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#35</b> "Whisp" wrote...
<QUOTE>The way I understand it, the thrust of the lawsuits is not that the smokers got
sick from using tobacco, it's that the tobacco companies repeatedly said that
cigarrettes DON'T cause disease. Not only that, but they suppressd or destroyed
any evidence to the contrary, including research they themselves did. </QUOTE>

Can you point me to one study that shows a chance caue by smoking (and it's progression) to cancer. No you can't, why because no in depth study like that has ever been done, all we have is statistical studies. Hell most cancer research still does not show what causes a cell to become cancerus in the first place.

O and Apache I'd bet on them throwing your butt out for meathoning diablo II with every breath :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#46 by "Ian"
2000-07-09 03:13:58
terrencelaukkanen@hotmail.com
Right None-1a, smoking is good for you... good for you... good for you...

I think that Whisp never said cancer, he said disease, which also can include emphizima (sp?) and others.

Obviously the increased incidents of cancer and disease are just coincidence. No need to worry, just keep smoking.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#47 by "Apache"
2000-07-09 03:14:56
apache@warzone.com http://www.unrealuniverse.com
<quote>BTW, Apache, does this mean I can post the next GameFan topic without you thinking it's personal? </quote>

heh, there's nothing left to talk about there anymore with the whole PC staff leaving ;)

<quote>Strangely enough I think we would believe that :P</quote>

Believe it or not, I flunked two semesters of college playing Diablo-1.

<quote>Can I just say a hesitant "hmmm"? :) </quote>

Let's wait until my last check clears first, eh? ;)
#48 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-07-09 03:24:28
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#45</b> "None-1a" wrote...
<QUOTE>Can you point me to one study that shows a chance caue by smoking (and it's
progression) to cancer. No you can't, why because no in depth study like that
has ever been done, all we have is statistical studies. Hell most cancer
research still does not show what causes a cell to become cancerus in the first
place.</QUOTE>

Can you point to any scientific study that proves anything ? The only thing that I know is provable are closed artificial systems. (Even regular studies like normal numerical theory are not provable).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#49 by "None-1a"
2000-07-09 03:26:06
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#46</b> "Ian" wrote...
<QUOTE>I think that Whisp never said cancer, he said disease, which also can include
emphizima (sp?) and others. </QUOTE>

I never said it was good for you, and most of the law suits have been brought up by people with cancer not emphizima or any other problem. Untill I see a solid non-statistical study telling me the exact chemical and the process of a cell begining to grow out of control I have my doughts about the facts here.

BTW did you know a resent statistical study says the chemicals used in making paper casese cancer, and that all paper has some of those chemicals left in it when dried, so what causes the cancer the left over chemicals from the paper or the tabacco? Frankly I find it a bad choice to base spending billions on some statistics with out solid proof of how it's happening and what exactly is causing it.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "None-1a"
2000-07-09 03:33:51
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#48</b> "RahvinTaka" wrote...
<QUOTE>Can you point to any scientific study that proves anything ? The only thing that
I know is provable are closed artificial systems. (Even regular studies like
normal numerical theory are not provable).</QUOTE>

They don't nothing in science is ever proven it's accepted. But the studies on tabacco do not at all follow any scientific base,the first thing you have to do in doing is to limit your study to one thing as the cause. Meaning in this case you'd have to keep a lung cell alive and give it a dose of smoke from tabacco and watch to see what happens, that has not been done. What they have done it look at people living in enviroments that by them selves cause cells to grow out of control, and notice that more smokers goet cancer then non smokers and jumped on it (sam way they did the "power line" studies on cancer that originaly said electomagnetic radiation caused cancer, that latter was proven completly wrong).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
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