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Sure, I just need mappers, modelers, coders...
September 17th 2003, 04:10 CEST by Caryn

Okay, everyone wants a new topic. This one is me thinking a bit out loud. It might suck. If so, vote no.

I recall reading or hearing (I wish I could find a link) that Valve is apparently going the extra mile in making modding for HL2 easier by hiring someone to actually write a book on how to make mods with the game. Although I don't know the details, I'm imagining this would be a pretty mainstream type of book geared for people interested in games but who've never made a mod or maybe don't even know what they are. (I recently was a contributing author on The gmax Bible, a book geared for people who've never made content for games but might be interested in doing so, so I imagine the focus would be similar.)

So I'm kind of curious: if making mods were more well-documented for your favorite game engines, would more of you venture into actually making content and your own mods? Is that even holding you back at all, or are all of you (excluding the game devs here) just not interested in it, period? Why or why not? What kind of mods would you make if you did? Would they be single player or multiplayer? Would you do any machinima? (That's an area I'm very interested in and would love to use the DOOM 3 engine to do something in that regard.)
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#1 by CheesyPoof
2003-09-17 04:17:10
I don't really want to make a mod on my own, but I had a lot of fun making my own maps in DEU for Doom.  When I tried mapping again it was with HL and was a lot more complicated (not fun).  I wish the tools were easier, not to publish anything, but because it was fun.

The downside to this is that if you thought there were a lot of crappy mods now...
#2 by bishop
2003-09-17 04:20:04
http://www.darkintel.org/00FF00/
making mods isn't exactly hard.. if I can do it, any of you could.
#3 by lwf
2003-09-17 04:21:30
I think it's a great idea, most of the information is already available on the internet, just steal it and print it in a book, and blammo!

Isaac [suddenly enraged]: "Don't be a douche! Don't you watch fuckin' Seinfeld, too? What's up?! I thought everyone liked Seinfeld! You're an asshole if you don't like it! Fuck you! I won't buy shit from you!" Did you get that one? "Seinfeld makes me happy and you don't! Click!"
#4 by Dethstryk
2003-09-17 04:29:56
jemartin@tcainternet.com
I'd love to make mods, and am able to do so, but time is the largest factor preventing me.

sunny days have funny ways of quieting the roar
#5 by bishop
2003-09-17 04:30:53
http://www.darkintel.org/00FF00/
the problem with a book is that there are far too many variables.

for example, if there were a book Q3's shader stuff, with descriptions, examples, as much information related to not just understanding shaders, but making and altering them as well, then I'd probably buy it, and a half dozen other 'dedicated' books dealing with certain aspects of modification.

but a footnoted chapter at the end of a book about models and skins and textures and programming would suck
#6 by bishop
2003-09-17 04:32:39
http://www.darkintel.org/00FF00/
furthering the problem with having a single book, or even a series of booksis that so much of the information changes between games that even if you were to lump all aspects into a single book, you'd need a large number of books to document even just the popular games.
#7 by Your Friend
2003-09-17 04:33:15
I don't know if mods have a big part to play in the near future of gaming.  I'm not saying they will disappear, but there will be fewer of them that make any sort of impact, IMO.

It used to be that programming was the bottleneck for game creation, now creating the vast amount of art content is.  

The days of slapping some vertices together and banging a texture skin on it (repeat 10x) and calling it a mod are gone.  If you don't know anything about LOD, normal maps, flexible materials (either fixed pipeline or via shaders), the basics of lighting, color, etc, you'll never create anything that can even stand next to the games being released now and in the near future.  

I realize graphics aren't everything, but who really wants to play a Doom 3 mod that looks like ass?  With that in mind, I'd expect that a lot of effort that may have previously gone into mods will go into "small games" of the Bubble Bomb sort.

"Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me."
#8 by Greg
2003-09-17 04:40:25
I guess the biggest mod I ever made was Assassins for SOF2, and it really isn't all that big. Just a bit of coding and a couple small images. The SOF2 SDK was pretty good, but there wasn't much documentation of anything on how to do what I wanted to do (which was create a new gametype and modify the HUD). The Raven forums, on the other hand, had a lot of discussion and coupled with some of the older Quake 3 tutorials I was able to figure out pretty much everything I needed to.

Maybe the only thing I would ask for is that the SDKs would explain the code via some sample mods and documentation on how the code works. That way I wouldn't have to worry about modifying the wrong part of the code to do what I needed to do. There were a couple things I did with Assassins that I felt may have been done a little hacky, like how to notify the HUD who the target was, and how to get the gametype objects to load as Infiltration, even when the game mode was not INF. (That allowed me to use existing INF levels for Assassins with no modifications.)

We are OK in a misguided, sadist way.
We are OK in a disabled veteran's way.
We are OK.
#9 by CheesyPoof
2003-09-17 04:42:04
It used to be that programming was the bottleneck for game creation, now creating the vast amount of art content is.  

Maybe, but I wonder if mods will become more lego like where you don't need to create much content but just plug in stuff from the game itself.  I haven't played any NWN mods, but I imagine not much new was created.
#10 by Bailey
2003-09-17 04:44:01
I think if I had a better understanding of games, or at least mapping and the like, I'd probably try to make some maps or machinima type stuff. Actually, I had an idea a couple years ago, probably from playing Max Payne, where I'd take a game, position some custom models in custom environments, screenshot it, slap some voice bubbles on and call it a web comic. Of course, Max Payne went the painful route of live actors, so I'm actually a forward thinking creative original.

That being said, I'd have to learn an awful lot about an awfully complex engine to do something as simple as that without it looking like complete ass, or any number of poorly photoshopped counterstrike screenshots. So at least mapping, yeah.

The knowledge that you exist is a burden on my soul.
#11 by Warren Marshall
2003-09-17 04:58:40
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
I like mapping maps for games, but even that is getting incredibly complex these days.  A basic UT2003 map that has full bot support is a lot more work than people think it is.  I shudder to think what Half-Life 2 mapping will be like ...

Respawn Games
Open your mind, let the beatings begin.
#12 by Bailey
2003-09-17 05:00:30
In the future, games will be so complex, they'll just start re-releasing old shit and calling it "retro".

The knowledge that you exist is a burden on my soul.
#13 by Desiato
2003-09-17 05:05:04
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
Does HL2 now have stand-in textures for the different aspects of a map? I remember seeing some shots of orange-edged textures that had a number like '012 - Wall' or something. Pretty soon it'll get complex enough that you will have sub-specialities, where there's one guy who is the best at doing liquid volumes in a map, or just a lighting guy. Then the unions will come in, and ruin it all!

Things are getting pretty complex though, I blame the insatiable appetite of 'realism' and eye-candy.

Just tell me this - why do most people's media access-list read permit any any ? Filter the tide of crap, for chrissakes.
#14 by Matthew Gallant
2003-09-17 05:08:18
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
It would be sweet if id put out a book with Doom 3 about modmaking. Half-Life 2 is going to have one, but it's from Prima-- and after picking up the Versusbooks NWN modding guide without giving it a good look first, I'm a bit wary about any modding book published by a strategy guide maker.

"All I've ever wanted to be is a monkey of moderate intelligence that wears a suit. That's why I'm transferring to business school!"
#15 by lwf
2003-09-17 05:09:26
I'm going to be a half-life 3 mapping pipefitter.

Isaac [suddenly enraged]: "Don't be a douche! Don't you watch fuckin' Seinfeld, too? What's up?! I thought everyone liked Seinfeld! You're an asshole if you don't like it! Fuck you! I won't buy shit from you!" Did you get that one? "Seinfeld makes me happy and you don't! Click!"
#16 by Bailey
2003-09-17 05:09:57
Prima? Ew, pass.

The knowledge that you exist is a burden on my soul.
#17 by jjohnsen
2003-09-17 05:13:58
http://www.johnsenclan.com
I remember someone talking about a book like this for UT2003, did that one ever get published?
#18 by Matthew Gallant
2003-09-17 05:15:08
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
#17 jjohnsen
I remember someone talking about a book like this for UT2003, did that one ever get published?

I think it's supposed to come out in two weeks.

*rimshot*

"All I've ever wanted to be is a monkey of moderate intelligence that wears a suit. That's why I'm transferring to business school!"
#19 by Bailey
2003-09-17 05:15:58
I... don't get it.

The knowledge that you exist is a burden on my soul.
#20 by Matt Perkins
2003-09-17 05:21:50
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
I think it's silly to assume more and more people won't be trying to make mods in the future.  Their popularity has not dropped off (at the least the making of them), but picked up as the years have gone on.

I'm working with some guys on a mod right now.  They've done a huge amount of work on it already and I think it will get released (which is a big step for any mod :) ).  They will probably be one of the 10 or so decent sized mods released for Dungeon Siege because the system wasn't very easy to make mods for.  

If DS had a mod system that was easier I believe they would have had a LOT more mods.  I think it was the complexity of what was required that stopped a lot of teams.

Now, is this a good thing?  I'm almost inclined to agree, that someone willing to learn the system is also someone willing to put the time in.  But in reality, you shouldn't have to pass a test to make a mod.  If you make a good mod, it will get played.  It shouldn't have to be up to your technical prowess to make a mod, only your imagination and game design abilities.  

So yes, I think that mod making would be more prevalent if it was easier.  And as with anything else, more doesn't mean better, but more does often up the odds of finding quality.

"I'm an extreme programmer. I don't plan anything when I code."- Lord Nekrull
#21 by Matt Perkins
2003-09-17 05:29:55
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
And I agree with Greg.  If said game maker is going to release a system to modify their games, could we get some documentation with that?  Dungeon Siege tried, though it didn't cover a LOT of things.  Good basic though.  NWN release a half assed book and SOME information online.

I guess I look at it like this...  Game makers release the ablility to make mods in their games for a couple of reasons, but an easy one probably being they are hoping for a counter-strike type (in terms of success) mod.  To enable people to do that, they should release an SDK to go with it.  Something that goes into general terms about the system and how it works and then something that defines functions, what they do, what they return, etc.  This is more work, but it enables mod developers to get involved in making mods faster...and probably better.

"I'm an extreme programmer. I don't plan anything when I code."- Lord Nekrull
#22 by "DEATH KiLLER iNTERNATiONAL (iNTERGALACTiC DiViSiON"
2003-09-17 05:32:00
fuck all u modmaker wannabes.. the only mod that fucken matters is doom for columbine and all u fucken chumps know it

/me high-fives Johnny Cash
#23 by Phayyde
2003-09-17 05:36:55
We're all banished from QuakeC eden.   We can never go home.

Beat to fit, paint to match.
#24 by Darkseid-D
2003-09-17 05:41:06
rogerboal@hotmail.com
The  `burnt sienna`/orange coloured walls youve seen in many Hl2 screenies, is the Source engines `default` texture for surfaces, as reported in one of the very first interviews post E3.

Do not go gently into that good night.
Old age should burn and rage at the close of day.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
#25 by Bailey
2003-09-17 05:43:04
The online NWN tutorial was painful. I had such high hopes for the NWN PC Expansion: Newbie Quest. The daring and resourceful young newb must pun and witticize his or her way past a gauntlet of increasingly ferocious posters, tired cliches, hackneyed articles, and boring-ass trolls, until finally, they achieve hollow acceptance at the small cost of any hope for a social life!

The knowledge that you exist is a burden on my soul.
#26 by Desiato
2003-09-17 05:45:45
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
I'd like the perspective taken with the in-house designers on a game. Just assume that we don't want to touch code, ever. If we have to, please offer documented examples. A little more than 'just subclass the main class and extend as necessary - here is the class tree, code away!'. Screw code. Let me design. UT series does this, but for anything beyond what is in the game you smack up against the code wall. I'm sure the people who program for a living will not care, but if you just want to make something, its frustrating.

Don't make me contract out Lord Nekrull.

Just tell me this - why do most people's media access-list read permit any any ? Filter the tide of crap, for chrissakes.
#27 by Darkseid-D
2003-09-17 05:51:57
rogerboal@hotmail.com
http://www.io2technology.com/

I want one

Do not go gently into that good night.
Old age should burn and rage at the close of day.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
#28 by Sgt Hulka
2003-09-17 05:52:22
I was offered a book a few months ago on this very subject, but due to the time issues related to writing such a book I turned the offer down.  I think it could be a very good book, but would take more than one author and lots-o-time to do a book like this justice.

Doomed! the Movie - Videogames Turn Deadly...
#29 by Quicken
2003-09-17 06:00:26
gdunn@backmeup.net.au
My first experience that I call mod making was stuffing around with Warcraft 1 saves in a hex editor. There's no question modding is as popular as ever however there is definite competition to make a game mod friendly. A lot of developers/publishers are hoping those unpaid mod teams will draw out the lifetime of the game especially since it takes so damn long to make one these days.

Part of what has stopped me making mods recently is the point Your Friend brought up. The challenge is to create a large quantity of art content rather than coding. I'm no artist, I'm not even a half decent mapper, and organising a "team" is near impossible unless you can pick people from already close friends to at least get started. Games can do a fair bit to try and compensate by making/keeping skinning easy, letting code change scale and some basic transformations. But that's not going to get a high quality mod it simply helps you tell the "Super X Gun 4000" from "pistol".

Even with a lot of pieces of art already available (lego design) it still is a challenge. After all that's what mapping basically is now with hundreds of meshes available in addition to basic shapes. However as I should know a corridor made from a primitave object with some meshes thrown in at interval does not make a map worth spitting on. I think there is a lot of work being done to make it easier on coders to both get into modding (applause for the mutator) and do advanced features. However there isn't as much being done in making it easier for content creation beyond gmax.
#30 by Your Friend
2003-09-17 06:00:39
Desiato,

Similarly I would like an art application that allows me to create art without knowing anything about art.  Just click, click, click and it works!

That would be AWESOME!!!

"Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me."
#31 by Quicken
2003-09-17 06:04:13
gdunn@backmeup.net.au
I have great ideas for a book on modding! If interested in helping send email! I need authors, a cover-artist, editor...
#32 by Hugin
2003-09-17 06:04:46
lmccain@nber.org
I've made tons of modules for pnp roleplaying games, so yeah, I assume if it were easy enough I'd make game mods.  But it isn't easy, and I'm too lazy to really work at it, and every year the engines get more complex, and...so..no.
#33 by Quicken
2003-09-17 06:05:32
gdunn@backmeup.net.au
Maybe we just need a big club where programmers and artists can mingle. Either that or I need to stop trying to get artists do what I want and start doing what they want... hmm...
#34 by Charles
2003-09-17 06:10:13
www.bluh.org
I've had (and have) plenty of ideas for mods, but considering I can't make art worth shit, and mapping tools are horrendously horrendous, I won't be doing anything anytime soon.  It's sad really, I'd love to fuck around with other games, but there is a lot of work peripheral to any game code itself that is necessary for anyone to ever care about your mod, but is still more than one person can handle.  

Regardless, I think the biggest issue is just the complexity and general unfriendliness of the tools needed to do this kind of thing.  I think there is plenty of room for the tools themselves to improve.  Sadly, it requires more than one or two guys fucking around in their spare time trying to make the editor not a piece of shit.  Which it doesn't seem like too many people are committed to doing.  

Of course, who knows, I could be wildly wrong.  My only real experience modding/mapmaking is with UT2k3 and NWN, and both of those were so disgusting it hurt.

How many it had cost in the amassing, what blood and sorrow, what good ships scuttled on the deep, what brave men walking the plank blindfold, what shot of cannon, what shame and lies and cruelty, perhaps no man alive could tell.
#35 by Warren Marshall
2003-09-17 06:11:45
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Of course, who knows, I could be wildly wrong. My only real experience modding/mapmaking is with UT2k3 and NWN, and both of those were so disgusting it hurt.

Out of curiosity, what was it about UT2003 that was so disgusting for you?   I'm honestly curious because what we shipped on those CDs is generally considered to be the best toolset going.

Respawn Games
Open your mind, let the beatings begin.
#36 by Charles
2003-09-17 06:14:13
www.bluh.org
Lack of documentation for the unrealscript side, and the horrible interface of UnrealEd.  Why the hell should I have to type numbers in to make a fucking box?  Give me some handles, jesus.  I can model with a basic level of ability in 3dsmax, but try and make a map in unrealed?  No way Josť!

How many it had cost in the amassing, what blood and sorrow, what good ships scuttled on the deep, what brave men walking the plank blindfold, what shot of cannon, what shame and lies and cruelty, perhaps no man alive could tell.
#37 by Charles
2003-09-17 06:15:29
www.bluh.org
Honestly, I'd much prefer to be able to just create levels in 3dsmax and export them to a game format.  Use the established, better tools.  Too bad GMax never took off, that would have kicked mucho ass.

How many it had cost in the amassing, what blood and sorrow, what good ships scuttled on the deep, what brave men walking the plank blindfold, what shot of cannon, what shame and lies and cruelty, perhaps no man alive could tell.
#38 by Charles
2003-09-17 06:19:21
www.bluh.org
And yes, I know the argument about affordable tools and blah blah blah.

How many it had cost in the amassing, what blood and sorrow, what good ships scuttled on the deep, what brave men walking the plank blindfold, what shot of cannon, what shame and lies and cruelty, perhaps no man alive could tell.
#39 by Hugin
2003-09-17 06:34:25
lmccain@nber.org
Warren...hm. to be honest, what I want is for Maxis and the Lego people, and..whoever made that ancient Rube Goldberg puzzle game, what was it called, the Factory... to make a landscape/architecture game, for kids, that's really really incredibly stupidly simple, with a super simple interface.  Not because I'm that stupid, but because that's the kind of direction I want to see things approached from.  Call it version 1.0.

From there, you could add sophistication, but always keeping a laserlike focus on thet sort of Sims-esque very very accessable interface notion.  Maybe also releasing packs of art assets (more "Lego block sets") that could be plugged in and modified.  Now, I know your objection:  That this approach would lack power and flexibility.  I know that.  But over time, power and flexibility would creep in, to a userbase that was familiar and comfortable with the tools.  And users would always manage to somehow eke crazier, more complex stuff out of it than the designers could possibly imagine.  Whenever I head about tools for modifying games released with some AAA title, the person talking about about it crows about how powerful the toolset is, and how it's the same (or very similar) to the tools the designers used to make the game itself.  And how modders can do anything under the sun with it, etc etc.

Too much. If I could program, I'd be a programmer (and scripting isn't much better).  Game designers know how to make good games.  Nice game designers give users access to powerful tools.  I'm not knocking that at all.  But it's kind of like a really friendly race car driver giving the keys to his Formula 1 car to the neighbors kid, and telling him to go ahead, take her for a spin.  Too much.  Give me a design toy, a shiny, simple design toy, and sneak sophistication in the back door over time.

And yes, I know I'm lazy. That doesn't mean there's isn't another way to go with the philosophy of the toolset.
#40 by Quicken
2003-09-17 06:35:48
gdunn@backmeup.net.au
As the competition for modable games continue they'll probably start sepending money on the tools. Unfortunatly there's often the temptation to see it, like I suspect this HL2 book is, as a little extra money on the side. Even Epic had early plans of selling the editor. And if they could get it to the level it is now way back then they probably would have been praised for it.
#41 by Greg
2003-09-17 06:45:25
#40 Quicken

As the competition for modable games continue they'll probably start sepending money on the tools. Unfortunatly there's often the temptation to see it, like I suspect this HL2 book is, as a little extra money on the side. Even Epic had early plans of selling the editor. And if they could get it to the level it is now way back then they probably would have been praised for it.

Doesn't Warren working at Epic show that companies spend money on their game tools? UnrealEd only crashes every other time that you use it, instead of every time previously. j/k!

But seriously, any company that is releasing tools to the public is spending money on it. Designers get by with tools that would hopefully never see the light of day outside of the stuido. And the tools that are polished, you hear about.

We are OK in a misguided, sadist way.
We are OK in a disabled veteran's way.
We are OK.
#42 by Mank
2003-09-17 07:01:12
From the e-mail that was sent out:
<snip>...a 200 page coffee-table tome called "Half-Life 2: Raising the Bar." It is an official publication (Gabe's writing the Forward), and charts the success of Valve from Gabe's Microsoft days to the release of Half-Life 2. Much of the book will be detailing the Modifications to the Half-Life game,...<snip>


Dunno how in depth they can go with 200 pages, but it sounds like a good deal. We just didnt have time to respond due to a release we had planned for the weekend. I can only hope the other Mod teams found the e-mail in time and were able to contribute.

Judging from the list of questions I received after the initial e-mail, it doesnt seem as if they are going that in-depth about mod making, but rather more a list of generic questions about how long it took, how many players it supports, and whether Valve played a role in supporting the developement of the mod ect.

A book like this might help convince someone that making mods is something that is worthwhile and fun, but I just dont see any book being able to cover all of the aspects that go into mod making...especially with todays newer games and the amount of time it takes to learn tools like 3DMax, Maya, Photoshop and whatnot.

Just looking at the amount of time it takes just to properly render out a player model, insert bones, skin and animate it in todays games, and it's easy to see that it just isnt something that can be done in just a matter of a few days anymore, and if you add in level design, texturing, the menu system(UI), scripting, and everything else that goes into mod making, it's not very hard to see how daunting the whole process must be for someone who has never even cracked open Paint in windows before.

"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
#43 by Warren Marshall
2003-09-17 07:15:59
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#36 Charles
Lack of documentation for the unrealscript side, and the horrible interface of UnrealEd.  Why the hell should I have to type numbers in to make a fucking box?  Give me some handles, jesus.  I can model with a basic level of ability in 3dsmax, but try and make a map in unrealed?  No way Josť!

Wow, OK.  You know, you can just create the first brush that way and duplicate it/vertex edit afterwards to create the rest of the map.

At any rate, thanks for the reply.  It's rare that I hear someone speak badly of UnrealEd.  Interesting...

Greg
Doesn't Warren working at Epic show that companies spend money on their game tools? UnrealEd only crashes every other time that you use it, instead of every time previously. j/k!

Epic definitely spends a lot of money on toolset development.  Not just my time, but plug-ins for Max/Maya, tracking down personal versions of things that we can ship with the game (complete with custom plug-ins that write out to Unreals file formats), etc.

It's a losing proposition to not give your users decent tools these days.  id has long relied on the community to shore up their tools in the past, but I don't know if that will hold up for Doom3.  Especially if Half-Life2 ships with nice ones...

Respawn Games
Open your mind, let the beatings begin.
#44 by Quicken
2003-09-17 07:26:47
gdunn@backmeup.net.au
Greg #41
Doesn't Warren working at Epic show that companies spend money on their game tools? UnrealEd only crashes every other time that you use it, instead of every time previously. j/k!


You sir are indeed correct. What I should have said is: start sepending more money on the tools

Maybe id should release an open source editor for doom 3. Get the basics started and let the community make it stable/featurised/incompatible from there.
#45 by Mank
2003-09-17 07:43:08
Warren,
It's a losing proposition to not give your users decent tools these days.  id has long relied on the community to shore up their tools in the past, but I don't know if that will hold up for Doom3.  Especially if Half-Life2 ships with nice ones...


How much thought has a company such as Epic put into trying to lure mod teams over from a different platform?

Is there really anything that can be done tools wise to make someone drop an Id engine platform in lieu of Unreals? It just seems that each successive game title is becoming more and more proprietary in their approach to the tool sets they offer the community, and I'm just wondering if we might not be approaching a point where once someone learns(lets say) the Half Life2 engine, that making the move to another platform will no longer be a viable option in the near future?

"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
#46 by G-Man
2003-09-17 07:47:03
Ever hear of the $1,000,000 Make Something Unreal contest?

Personally, I think that modding will really take off in a big way once the map editors for first person shooters become in-game. Meaning you can build geometry, light it, texture it etc as you are floating through the level in rendered first person perspective.
#47 by Your Friend
2003-09-17 07:51:28

Maybe id should release an open source editor for doom 3. Get the basics started and let the community make it stable/featurised/incompatible from there.


They already did that back at Quake2 (Radiant), which was then also used as the official Quake3 editor, and from what I've heard it is also the Doom3 editor, though now it is somehow integrated to be usable in-game and not just as a separate application.

"Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me."
#48 by Jamiekin
2003-09-17 08:04:13
Not interested in working on a mod because 95% of mods are FPS Counterstrike/WW2 clones and  derivatives that have been done a million times before.. Most mods are aiming to compete with commercial games that probably had over 30+ fulltime staff working on it for 2 years.. The tools aren't holding me back, but realising that most mods usually go belly up with only a few weapon renders (rendered with neat-0 radiosity), what's the point. How many mod homepages have you seen where there's a page on story/background/scenario, profile of each member, big news page, contact information, and 3 gun models + no ingame screenshots.. I'd say too many.

I have a crocodile down my pants.
#49 by yotsuya
2003-09-17 08:20:42
I'm still waiting for the Macross mod for Shogo...

"YES!!  You see people, THAT'S why he's the Vice-President of A/V Services here at Respawn Games.  Yotsuya ALWAYS unleashes the fucking fury!" - Warren Marshall
#50 by Quicken
2003-09-17 08:32:49
gdunn@backmeup.net.au
Aye... aye...

/me looks sad
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