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Flog That Horse, Boy!
August 19th 2003, 07:30 CEST by deadlock

One of my favourite games of all time is Tie Fighter, from LucasArts. I bought a 'Collector's Edition' that included all of the expansion packs and it kept me occupied for months as I tried to do my bit to crush the Rebel Alliance and bring Admiral Thrawn to task for daring to betray the Emperor.

Then, as time went by I became less and less anamoured with the game...

Basically, it's because I'm a bit of a shallow git. Newer, better looking games were coming out all of the time and Tie Fighter's gouraud-shaded phong models began to look less and less attractive when compared to those of the newer games. Then, one day, I happened upon yet another LucasArts special edition - this one featured both Tie Fighter (including all of the expansions) and X-Wing (again, including all of the expansions) plus a 'special' (read: crippled) version of X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter. What sold me on this package was the fact that both X-Wing and Tie Fighter had been updated to run on the newer, nicer, texture-friendly X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter engine! At last! I could replay my favourite space shooter without having to shield my eyes from the gaudy graphics!!

I'm sure you're reading this and asking yourself two questions: how can anyone be so fickle? And where the hell is he going with this?

Well, to answer the second question, I'm sure that many of you have come across the interview with John Carmack on Gamespot, in which the following question is asked and answered:

GameSpy: As a triple-A company, can id work on any smaller ideas?

John Carmack: I thought it would be kind of neat if we took the DOOM renderer, and we had a team take previous games-don't touch the game, just revamp it graphically. Just take Quake II, and just use the DOOM engine to make brand new graphic models and everything. But don't spend time messing with the gameplay because we know that is pretty good. Just release it as Quake II Remix with brand new graphics technology and sell it at a middle-level price instead of a boutique price.

I thought that was a pretty good idea.


So my question is, assuming that the gameplay is left intact and that they are released at a budget price, would you be interested in playing modern updates of your favourite games from yesteryear?
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#1 by TheTrunkDr.
2003-08-19 07:37:21
Yes

I kid cause I care.
#2 by Mank
2003-08-19 07:37:31
I'd love to see a game like SS2 revisited on something like the Doom3 or HL2 engine. And yes, I would pay for a retail version considering the advances in sound and graphics that have been made since that game first came out. I admit it's reverting back to more of the same, but if the price range could reflect the revisit, then sure....I'd be all for some older games getting a revamp.

But, I dont see older games being able to take advantage of this due to the high costs involved with licensing newer engines, and someone would have to be paid to make all of the new content. So I doubt it would be something that publishers would even consider funding....there's no telling how much it would cost to do something like this.

"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
#3 by Warren Marshall
2003-08-19 07:39:48
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
I dunno.  Why sully the memory of the original game?  A lot of the charm and character of a game comes through in it's graphics.  Change the graphics, lose the charm.

That being said, I wouldn't mind playing an updated version of certain games.  But things like turning a 2D game into a 3D one "just because" really turn me off.

#4 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-08-19 08:25:42
erictcheng@hotmail.com
I would definitely get an updated version of TIE Fighter with a contemporary engine. Hell, I'm excited Firaxis is working on a new Sid Meier's Pirates!, hopefully not touching the gameplay of the original classic.

Kilt Wearing Pixel Pushing Monkey Boy
DVD Collection
GameGossip.com
#5 by yotsuya
2003-08-19 08:41:22
Well, Hollywood seems to be taking this \"Let's remake '-------' with a spiffy new look\" idea to heart...

"YES!!  You see people, THAT'S why he's the Vice-President of A/V Services here at Respawn Games.  Yotsuya ALWAYS unleashes the fucking fury!" - Warren Marshall
#6 by Charles
2003-08-19 08:47:15
www.bluh.org
Where the hell did this come from?  I didn't even notice a topic in the bin.  All you fuckers must have been voting while I didn't have power.


Anyway, I think it's a great topic, though I feel much like Warren for some of it.  I can't imagine playing Ultima 7 without the graphics it shipped with, or playing Betrayal at Krondor with full 3d models instead of the digitized actors.  

A lot of what makes newer games better, however, is advancements in gameplay.  Would companies be willing to update older games with newer gameplay as well?  I don't think so.  Would you even want them to?

IMO, I'd just like companies to make sure that their older games just worked on newer computers.  But we've had topics about that before.  It seems that every while, another game becomes unplayable.  Recently I noticed that Betrayal at Krondor won't run in Windows XP, even with VDMSound, despite having worked flawlessly in Win2k.  I weep for the quality games which are being lost to time.

How many it had cost in the amassing, what blood and sorrow, what good ships scuttled on the deep, what brave men walking the plank blindfold, what shot of cannon, what shame and lies and cruelty, perhaps no man alive could tell.
#7 by G-Man
2003-08-19 08:59:30
Charles in #6 said:
A lot of what makes newer games better, however, is advancements in gameplay.
Advancements in gameplay? Wtf? If that were true then we'd all be playing Samba Di Amigo instead of Elite Force II.

That said, this [topic] sounds like a job for... THE MOD COMMUNITY!

Seriously, I've never understood why so many talented people in the mod community dedicated so much effort to say, making new models for multiplayer, instead of making higher-poly singleplayer models to take advantage of the increases in fill-rate that new cards provide. The only mod to do this that I've ever seen was the Rebirth mod for System Shock 2.
#8 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-08-19 09:00:49
erictcheng@hotmail.com
I heard through the developer rumourmill that a certain 2-1/2D FPS from years ago is being remade into a true 3D FPS (and no, it's not Doom), keeping its original gameplay.

Kilt Wearing Pixel Pushing Monkey Boy
DVD Collection
GameGossip.com
#9 by Charles
2003-08-19 09:01:38
www.bluh.org
Advancements in gameplay? Wtf? If that were true then we'd all be playing Samba Di Amigo instead of Elite Force II.


You are an idiot.  Do I have to start writing in one syllable words so you can actually follow what I say?

How many it had cost in the amassing, what blood and sorrow, what good ships scuttled on the deep, what brave men walking the plank blindfold, what shot of cannon, what shame and lies and cruelty, perhaps no man alive could tell.
#10 by BobJustBob
2003-08-19 09:12:27
I'll agree with Charles on this one. I couldn't care less about updated graphics and sound, but I would love to just have versions of older games that worked on current systems. Of course, if publishers could actually get away with this, they might start shipping games that were guaranteed to stop working after an OS upgrade. Remember those DOS games that just popped up a window saying (paraphrased) SCREW YOU if you tried to play them under Win95?

Also, Samba de Amigo >> Elite Force 2.

Voices tell me I'm the shit.
<Whisp> BJB is a troll. <Whisp> Troll I say!
#11 by Neale
2003-08-19 09:23:23
neale@pimurho.co.uk www.pimurho.co.uk
Kiltman:

Duke Nukem? Please......

You can't derail this train of idiocy, Shadarr. Not even with a big fat cow of logic on the tracks. - Bailey
#12 by lwf
2003-08-19 09:32:20
Bingo!

We all try harder as the days run out.
#13 by Quicken
2003-08-19 10:22:27
gdunn@backmeup.net.au
Dune 2000. Need I say more?
#14 by deadlock
2003-08-19 11:38:58
http://www.deadlocked.org/
charles:
Where the hell did this come from?  I didn't even notice a topic in the bin.  All you fuckers must have been voting while I didn't have power.

I only wrote it yesterday afternoon! I don't think I've ever seen a topic get voted in so fast! Thanks people, I'm really... I'm really choked...

charles:
I can't imagine playing Ultima 7 without the graphics it shipped with, or playing Betrayal at Krondor with full 3d models instead of the digitized actors.

I was thinking more along the lines of 'remixing' the game, but keeping everything more or less intact. Which would mean not updating (say) the original Prince of Persia to have 3D graphics. Or maybe you do give it 3D graphics but it is still a side-scroller, a la Pandemonium. Anyway, what I was thinking (or rather, Carmack, since he prompted this topic) was taking Quake 2 (since that's Carmack's example), recompiling the maps to run on the new Doom engine, rejigging the textures so they're higher resolution and enhancing the models so they have more polys, better animations and more detailed skins.

A lot of work, sure, but chances are that much of that work is already done. I'm pretty sure that most Quake 2 textures could be replaced with Doom ones (one Base is as good as another) and there are possibly high poly versions of at least some of the Quake 2 models knocking around in id.

give it to me raw, i'll take it home and cook it myself
#15 by Ashiran
2003-08-19 11:41:13
Just a graphic update really doesn't do much for me. I can play Magic Carpet just fine. What I would like to see is updated versions of old games that WORK on something that isn't a Pentium 133 with DOS 6.0.

"Your beam weapons are just a thinly-veiled analogy for giant throbbing plasma cocks violating new orifices in enemy ships." - Bailey
#16 by Dethstryk
2003-08-19 12:35:17
jemartin@tcainternet.com
The Doom III engine can't come close to replicating the gameplay of the original Doom titles, so there's no way I would be interested.

sunny days have funny ways of quieting the roar
#17 by deadlock
2003-08-19 12:52:25
http://www.deadlocked.org/
Dethstryk:

I don't think it work for something like Doom (original). I know there have been all sort of GL updates for Doom1 and people have added mouse support, etc. but I think that a near-facsimile reproduction of Doom would reveal just how much FPS' have moved on, in terms of both gameplay and technology. I mean, you'd never be able to do the kind of vertical gameplay that was possible when FPS' moved to 3D; is there a level like Quake 2's The Edge, for example?

give it to me raw, i'll take it home and cook it myself
#18 by Dethstryk
2003-08-19 12:54:39
jemartin@tcainternet.com
Well, I'm mainly stating the fact that Doom III couldn't handle the amount of enemies on-screen that the original games threw at you. Those were the most fun of my experiences with that game. I mean, I know I'm not the only one who played the last level in Doom II just to kill enemies endlessly, co-op'ing with other friends until the game crashed from too many objects being in the game.

sunny days have funny ways of quieting the roar
#19 by m0nty
2003-08-19 13:11:21
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
I want a graphical update of Pong.
#20 by Dethstryk
2003-08-19 13:27:35
jemartin@tcainternet.com
#19 m0nty
I want a graphical update of Pong.
I heard that tennis is kind of like standing on a ping-pong table. That's like, two or three updates there.

sunny days have funny ways of quieting the roar
#21 by m0nty
2003-08-19 13:41:11
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
That would only work if you're the size of a lawn gnome.

Hmm, now there's a game idea.
#22 by Dethstryk
2003-08-19 14:01:30
jemartin@tcainternet.com
One of the updates is the larger resolution table.

sunny days have funny ways of quieting the roar
#23 by Matt Perkins
2003-08-19 15:57:38
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
I don't know about the rest of it, but a graphic and sound update (meaning it would use DirectX and work on XP) of Masters of Magic would make me a VERY happy person.  Maybe some bug fixes while they are at it (damn games on HUGE and hardest diff would crash when things got too big).

Then, they could release a MOM2 with whatever they wanted.  Or just expansion for the original.  I think there could be a huge market there if it was done properly.

"...the police, who then investigated themselves and found themselves blameless." - Thai Editoral
#24 by haplo
2003-08-19 16:32:54
I'd certainly like to see a revamped version of Sentinel Worlds I, a very old and very overlooked game I used to play on my top-of-the-line Tandy.

Or how about a 3D version of the best game of all time: Food Fight....

And I'm still waiting for Allegiance II.

<@jafd> Anyway, Darth, your name is stupid. sry.
<@Ashiran> So no more darthnugget?
<@haplo> darthnugget has left the building
#25 by Marcin
2003-08-19 17:04:27
marcin@wickedtoast.com www.damodred.net
System Shock Rebirth - I'm sure everyone has seen this?

MOD community is the place for this, exactly, as the above suggests.

Also, I guess it really depends on what game, doesn't it? I'd rather play Nethack, Sopwith Camel in its original form, kthx. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind that Rebirth project getting finished, nor would I mind something like Privateer II having a decent flight engine and spruced up graphics. If Daggerfall was fixed and updated, I'd play it again too...

Or why not take the old and revamp it with a new angle, like Crimsonland being, more or less, a remake of Robotron?

So I think in conclusion yes, I would. Problem is, everyone's list of games they'd like updated would be different.

Open Source CMS makes me sad.
#26 by Gunp01nt
2003-08-19 17:42:48
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Dune 2000. Need I say more?

hey, I thought Dune 2000 was pretty cool...

One thing that makes cool games cool is their atmosphere. The atmosphere is largely created by the graphics. If a game such as System Shock 2 would be updated, then there'd have to be a really good graphical crew working on it, who can guarantee that the game retains its compelling atmosphere and not turn into something like Freelancer, which is basically Privateer 2 without the atmosphere.

"You know what happens to schoolgirls in Japanese cartoons? Hmm, tentacles!"
#27 by Your Friend
2003-08-19 17:43:37
I would love to play Quake II on the Doom III engine with enhanced graphics and such.  Assuming, of course, they use the old physics/networking model so as not to impose the heavy restrictions on multiplayer.

"Take Two needs to STFU imo." - G30rg3 Br0uzz4rd
#28 by Ergo
2003-08-19 17:49:17
m0nty--

What is that hideous orb floating in your icon? Some kind of mutant asteroid?

We are all atheists, some of us just believe in fewer gods than others. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
DVDs
#29 by yotsuya
2003-08-19 17:57:11
m0nty-

new icon?

"YES!!  You see people, THAT'S why he's the Vice-President of A/V Services here at Respawn Games.  Yotsuya ALWAYS unleashes the fucking fury!" - Warren Marshall
#30 by Huge Wood Farmer
2003-08-19 18:11:33
Is that your real face? It looks like a skinny version of the shrink from Office Space.

Hooray for Flowerpants!
#31 by m0nty
2003-08-19 18:39:14
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
My mum just got a new digital camera. I was playing.

In my playing, I discovered that taking pictures at arm's length is not conducive to producing headshots that don't make your head look like a listing dirigible. I think I shall experiment further with shots taken by other people.
#32 by Trunks
2003-08-19 18:39:15
I'm sure that many of you have come across the interview with John Carmack on Gamespot


I like how the "Gamespot" link points to Gamespy...

"Because apparently, Link should be visiting strippers and getting his rocks off every time he blows the magic flute." - LPMiller
#33 by Chunkstyle
2003-08-19 18:41:35
I think I shall experiment further with shots taken by other people.

Or even better, with pictures of other people.

There's joy in repetition.
#34 by Trunks
2003-08-19 18:42:33
Anyhoo...how about a variation of the topic?  Games that could've/should've been a LOT better than they turned out.  SW: Rebellion was a huge letdown, but I would like to see it redone.  Overhaul the 4x strategic part and make the tactical part something more like Homeworld and I'd be set.

"Because apparently, Link should be visiting strippers and getting his rocks off every time he blows the magic flute." - LPMiller
#35 by Warren Marshall
2003-08-19 18:52:39
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Well, SimCity 4 was shite.  It looks like it could be a lot of fun but it's way too fucking hard.  I was never able to create a profitable city.  Ever.  They should have made getting started a lot easier.

#36 by """Balderama"""
2003-08-19 18:52:47
support@real.com www.planetcrap.com
Fook yeu eol.
#37 by """Balderama"""
2003-08-19 18:53:18
support@real.com www.planetcrap.com
boring. Next topic please?
#38 by Caryn
2003-08-19 18:54:59
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
RE: the mod community and remaking older games

As far as I understand it, the mod community's hands are tied by IP law and copyright issues when it comes to remaking older games in newer engines. Just trying to remake Quake 1 content in the Quake 3 engine is a sticky legal issue, I believe.

He said, "child, you've got a long road" - and I said, "good, 'cause I need to be forgiven."
#39 by Marsh Davies
2003-08-19 19:08:27
www.verbalchilli.com
Just trying to remake Quake 1 content in the Quake 3 engine is a sticky legal issue, I believe.


But it's happened a lot, surely? I remember playing Quake 1 levels in Unreal 1, for example.

Personally, I'm quite happy that revamping old games remains in the hands of the MOD community, partly because I think they're doing a bearable job of it as it is, but mostly because I think this is a really depressing trend adopted from Hollywood (as Yot mentioned). It's safety in stagnation, and it would be a pity to see the fetid, still waters swallow yet more creativity.

#40 by CheesyPoof
2003-08-19 19:11:42
I want a graphical update of Pong.

Aww M0nty, you used to care about meaningful on-topic discussion.

I don't have many games that I would want to see remade with updated graphics that I would pay to play again.  What I do like with this though is giving me the chance to play good games that I missed the first time around.  The first RPG I ever played to the end was BG2.  Just think of all the RPG's that I missed prior to BG2. [Aside, I found my Fallout disc at Mom's (yea), but the graphics do suck ass now, and the text is a pain to read.  I think I'm to shallow to play it now and would like a visual update for it].

RE:  Mod community.  This sounds like it would be perfect for the Mod community, but won't they get Foxed?  Wasn't some group trying to port D3D level to Q3 or something but 3DR shut them down?  Sounds like a sticky situation for any community to get involved in.
#41 by lwf
2003-08-19 19:12:19
Aren't all games already graphical updates of Pong?

We all try harder as the days run out.
#42 by Caryn
2003-08-19 19:13:08
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
#39 Marsh Davies
But it's happened a lot, surely? I remember playing Quake 1 levels in Unreal 1, for example.


Yeah, it's happened, but when it does the projects get shut down.

He said, "child, you've got a long road" - and I said, "good, 'cause I need to be forgiven."
#43 by m0nty
2003-08-19 19:14:40
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
Yes CheesyPoof, I did. O what frabjous days of warm summer whimsy they were, lad.
#44 by Huge Wood Farmer
2003-08-19 19:15:38
someone toss lwf a rope, looks like he fell in.

Hooray for Flowerpants!
#45 by Bailey
2003-08-19 19:20:45
If someone was able to graphically update Wasteland without sucking out all the fun, originality, and content, that'd be keen.

So, how do you like the game so far? Was it worth the $59.95?
#46 by BobJustBob
2003-08-19 19:44:21
Warren, don't give up on Simcity 4. It takes a little while to get used to. I used to think that, that I would never be able to get a profitable city. I usually ended up plunging myself into a debt spiral around the time I began building hospitals and schools. But you do get the hang of it. Now, every city I build is profitable.

If you build lots of low-density residential areas, they'll fill up. It doesn't matter where they are, even right next to heavy industry. So there's a nice influx of tax dollars. Also, if you do happen to begin losing money, around the time your treasury sinks to zero you'll get offers to have undesirable buildings placed in your town for a monthly fee. Accept all these offers. The prison, army base, and missile test site together bring in around $1000 a month. If that doesn't make you profitable, bulldoze all the schools and hospitals. Maybe the police stations too.

Voices tell me I'm the shit.
<Whisp> BJB is a troll. <Whisp> Troll I say!
#47 by Creole Ned
2003-08-19 19:47:07
Charles, I've gotten Betrayal at Krondor to work in XP, complete with sound and cheesy MIDI music. I don't have it installed currently, but I'll have a go and see if I can duplicate my success.

There have been a number of games that have essentially done the remake thing, like Lode Runner and the aforementioned Dune 2000, chiefly updating the graphics but leaving the gameplay pretty close to the original. They were full-priced titles, though, so it's hard to say how they might have fared as lower-budget releases.

I'd be in for a Q2 remix, myself, but honestly, I can't see any company investing the still-considerable time into a project like that for what might be an indifferent consumer reaction.

"I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
"I'm getting a 404 on the yarn link, Caryn. BAILEY DEMANDS YARN."
#48 by Darkseid-D
2003-08-19 19:50:01
rogerboal@hotmail.com
System Shock redone in the Doom 3 engine (better yet, have Warren Spector's team do System Shock 3)
Terra Nova redone in the Unreal Warfare engine (oh wait, EPIC is already doing this, calling it UT2004 ;) )
Duke Nukem 3d redone in the lithtech engine (might not see much difference)

:D

Do not go gently into that good night.
Old age should burn and rage at the close of day.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
#49 by Your Friend
2003-08-19 19:56:46
Look at the old Generations mod to see the result of using old content/IP in a newer engine without permission.  Unless they are specifically authorized, mod makers can't just go around updating old games.

And of the mod teams that do this anyway, virtually none of them finish the job regardless of whether they get Foxed or not.  I really don't see mod teams as the answer here.

"Take Two needs to STFU imo." - G30rg3 Br0uzz4rd
#50 by Chunkstyle
2003-08-19 19:58:44
I'd love a Starflight, Bards Tale, or Wasteland remake in a new engine.  Right now.

There's joy in repetition.
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