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T O P I C
Freedom of Expression
June 29th 2000, 23:39 CEST by andy

If you've arrived at Planetcrap by mistake and you're desperately hunting for a link to get out of here, then go and read this editorial on Old Man Murray. Go on. Run! Before it's too late!



The editorial surmises that far from it being ION Storm to blame for the demise of Looking Glass Studios, we should all be pouring scorn upon Eidos' investment in Express.com, parent company of the Express retail sites and the GameFan network, among others...

With its [$55m] stake in [Express.com], Eidos had created a brand new money pit. As the dot coms crashed, online advertising dollars began to shrink.

By Eidos's low point, dot coms were starting to fail. The fifty-five million dollar investment no longer looked like such a great idea. [...] This investment wasn't the sole cause of Eidos's problems, but it seems to have had a much larger impact on Eidos than Ion Storm did.

Of course, if you prefer your hate to be fuelled by ignorance, you should probably avoid this editorial. After all, it's going up against such damn fine arguments as "John Romero has long hair", and "Stevie Case got her tits out for a magazine". (Just in case you missed the reasons why people hate ION so much.)

On a different but connected note, those of you who read GameFan may have spotted something a little strange recently...

While most reviewers wrote Daikatana off as everything from a missed opportunity to a bug-ridden abortion of a game, the GameFan review opened with the phrase "it's not as bad as you think...", went on to describe the game as a "solid single-player experience that encompasses four distinctly different episodes and harks back to the age of games like DOOM", gave it a score of 77% and concluded with -- of all things -- a John Romero interview.

Of course, this somewhat unique approach to reviewing had nothing to do with GameFan being part-owned by Eidos, publisher of Daikatana. How could it?

Sure, the cynics out there will say that only last week GameFan admitted to removing critical content on request from the very company they were criticising. But how could they possibly be influenced by one of their major shareholders?

Finally, did you notice that the Old Man Murray editorial included a full-disclosure statement at the end? Top marks to the grumpy old bastards, long may they reign. Now when was the last time you saw any disclosure statements on an Eidos-owned web site?

C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "crash"
2000-06-29 23:41:18
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
i was very impressed with this story.

for what it's worth.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#2 by "crash"
2000-06-29 23:41:39
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
oh, and a belated "FIRST!" goes out to Warren. ;)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#3 by "Dethstryk"
2000-06-30 00:18:21
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
If everything on Old Man Murray's editorial is true, I really dig it. A lot of insight is really opened up into this whole situation.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#4 by "flamethrower"
2000-06-30 00:19:01
flamey_at_evil@hotmail.com http://flamethrower.evilavatar.com
oi phear OMM
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#5 by "RzE"
2000-06-30 00:21:38
rze@counter-strike.net http://csnation.counter-strike.net
VE, owned by GameFan, owned by MH, 20% owned by Eidos said Dk sucks.

Something Awful, owned by GameFan, owned by MH, 20% owned by Eidos said Dk sucks.

GameFan, owned by MH, 20% owned by Eidos said Dk wasn't as bad as you think.

Personally, i think Apache's review was extremly fair to the game.. What you guys should be looking at is how every other ad on the GFN is a Daikatana ad.
#6 by "Rambar"
2000-06-30 00:24:30
Coincedence? Probably. Take a look at this.

"In January, Eidos sank fifty-five million into Maximum Holdings (MH), acquiring a 20% ownership of the company. MH owns GameFan*, Voodoo Extreme, and other online properties. "

I'm sure we all remember how the VoodooExtreme review was just absolutely glowing about Daikatana.  Hell I bought Daikatana based soley on that review.
#7 by "RzE"
2000-06-30 00:25:33
rze@counter-strike.net http://csnation.counter-strike.net
Edit:
What you guys should be looking at is how every other ad on the GFN is a EIDOS ad.

Daikatana
Thief 2
Deus Ex

I've refreshed my site over fifty times, all I'm seeing is those eidos ads.. wtf
#8 by "Desiato"
2000-06-30 01:06:45
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
SomethingAwful owned by Gamefan?

You sure about that?


Desiato
#9 by "Charlie Wiederhold"
2000-06-30 01:11:20
charliew@3drealms.com
Desiato, Head to SomethingAwful and look in the upper right hand corner.
#10 by "MCorleone"
2000-06-30 01:16:56
john_st123@hotmail.com
Wait, isn't this Apache's website?  That pinnacle of journalistic integrity.  

Dr. Thompson would pigeon-hole him with Nixon...
#11 by "MCorleone"
2000-06-30 01:17:15
john_st123@hotmail.com
(I was referring to GameSpam)
#12 by "None-1a"
2000-06-30 01:23:19
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
maybe LGS should have asked for money sooner, looks like the dot com crash shook Eidos' throw many at any thing investment stratagy off a bit. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#13 by "MCorleone"
2000-06-30 01:24:06
john_st123@hotmail.com
Hey!  Read further down the news page at OMM.  It seems Apache has been censoring OTHER people, too!
#14 by "shaithis"
2000-06-30 02:00:01
chrisb@gamespy.com http://www.gamespy.com
Something awful is owned by Lowtax, guys. He just runs their banners so he can afford to run the site.

-shai
#15 by "JCal"
2000-06-30 02:10:01
jcal@stomped.com http://www.stomped.com
People should always be wary when a magazine or news web site is partially owned by a business who creates product that the magazine and/or web site covers in its beat. I'm not saying that the folks at GameFan are biased towards Eidos products, but the impression will always be there.
In order for GameFan, both in its magazine and on its web sites, to establish some sort of journalistic distance from Eidos, they should put a notice at the end of every review or news story about an Eidos product stating something like, "Eidos is a financial partner in the company that owns GameFan." CNN anchors say something similar whenever they cover a story about their parent company Time-Warner.
#16 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-06-30 02:15:44
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>VE, owned by GameFan, owned by MH, 20% owned by Eidos said Dk sucks. </quote>
I believe they're hosted by the GameFan network, not owned by 'em. Meaning they give them bandwith, machines and handle their advertising and crud like that.

<quote>Something Awful, owned by GameFan, owned by MH, 20% owned by Eidos said Dk sucks. </quote>
See above.

<quote>GameFan, owned by MH, 20% owned by Eidos said Dk wasn't as bad as you think. </quote>
True.
#17 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-06-30 02:16:29
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
Oh, and that's a terrific article at Old Man Murray.
#18 by "Union Carbide"
2000-06-30 02:20:13
smythe@bangg.org http://www.bangg.org
<b>#16</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<QUOTE>I believe they're hosted by the GameFan network, not owned by 'em. Meaning they
give them bandwith, machines and handle their advertising and crud like that.
</QUOTE>

It's my understanding that Billy sold VE to GameFan.  He no longer owns it, he just works there.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#19 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-06-30 02:45:39
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>It's my understanding that Billy sold VE to GameFan. He no longer owns it, he just works there. </quote>
Ah, if that's the case, I stand corrected.

'Course if you're paranoid, you could say Voodoo Extreme is considered independent of GameFan (in perception at least), hence they have more freedom.

I actually think it's also interesting Adrenaline Vault hasn't reviewed Daikatana... but they did have an editorial about how enjoyable it was, and how other reviewers had prejudged the game, blah blah blah. <a href="http://www.avault.com/articles/getarticle.asp?name=think"><b>Here's</b></a> the link in case anyone is curious.
#20 by "McGrew"
2000-06-30 02:49:06
mcgrew@famvid.com http://TheFragfest.com
The utter bewilderment of those poor souls that wandered by ignorantly! Thanks, Andy, that was better than OMM.

Remember when the Japanese bought out OMM for millions of, uh, something or other?

-Steve

Disclaimer: Everything you know is wrong.
#21 by "Emjoi Gently"
2000-06-30 02:49:43
Sometimes Crap is a fine name for this place...
#22 by "McGrew"
2000-06-30 02:51:59
mcgrew@famvid.com http://TheFragfest.com
Hey, check out <a href="http://www.hulka.com/" TARGET="sarge" >Hulka's</a>. He's killed his banners!
#23 by "crash"
2000-06-30 03:23:21
<b>crash's Apology to Seth</b>

well. was going to say something here, but i guess i'll just let this say it all. Seth wins, i lose, farewell. i'll be deleting CrapSpy (the finest app for this site i've seen), removing the bookmark to this site, and Morn, could you kill the PC alias? thanks. :)

this is the mail i just sent to Seth, Andy, Morn, Darkseid, and UnionCarbide. enjoy.

- - - - - [ text follows ] - - - -

you know what, sparky? congratulations. you have just single-handedly destroyed the only thing that kept planetcrap the way it was for so very long: the fact that people didn't resort to such incredible bullshit as threatening to sue over comments made therein.

for my part, i wonder how eager you would have been to sue if i hadn't made the apparently stupid mistake of posting from work--and i wonder how eager you would have been to sue if you didn't think it'd cost me my job. and i wonder how many others on PC will continue to post knowing that there are people like you that will sue because they don't like what was said, or think it's libel, or defamation. (and 60/40 in my favor--according to YOUR COUNSEL--is hardly an open-and-shut case.)

for the record, i've been called far worse, and far more bluntly, and with far more intent to defame, and with a FAR more clear-cut case of libel, than i think you would believe. or, frankly, care about. but i've never threatened to sue, because, well. you can guess why not. i'm just wondering why you think you have such a stellar reputation that it could be defamed by such a harmless remark. then again, your email addy's goin in the kill file, so i'll never see your reply, should you make one.

you want to play it like this, we'll play it like this. my apology to you for a more-than-likely-not "libel" in the forums will be the posting of this entire message in the latest thread. you want to see it? fine: tell your lawyer that i am sorry for inferring that you have socialist leanings.

and for the fallout? well. you can deal with it. i certainly hope you've enjoyed your little strutting display of "power", and i certainly hope it makes you feel better.

have a nice day.

-b-

Seth Krieg wrote:
 
 I don't want to take you to court - but you did libel me, my attorney
 said it would be trivial, and she put it at 60/40 odds in your favor,
 only so high because she saw your comments and agreed you *did*
 libel me. Please just apologize, retract, and you won't hear another
 thing about it from me. I'm not going to comment further (publicly)
 on the matter if you decided to continue to be a spiteful jerk. It's
 not going to cost me a dime to have my Teamster assigned lawyer
 follow through with litigation, but what you said was untrue, I can
 prove it, and I will go through with it.
 
 Regards,
 Seth Krieg
#24 by "crash"
2000-06-30 03:25:16
ah damn i changed it. HERE's the text:

-------------------
you know what, sparky? congratulations. you have just single-handedly
destroyed the only thing that kept Planetcrap the way it was for so
very long: the fact that people didn't resort to such incredible
bullshit as acutally suing over comments made therein. for my part, i
wonder how eager you would have been to sue if i hadn't made the
apparently stupid mistake of posting from work--and i wonder how eager
you would have been to sue if you didn't think it'd cost me my job.

and i wonder how many others on PC will continue to post knowing that
there are people like you that will sue because they don't like what
was said, or think it's libel, or defamation. (and 60/40 in my
favor--according to YOUR COUNSEL--is hardly an open-and-shut case.)

for the record, i've been called far worse, and far more bluntly, and
with far more intent to defame, and with a FAR more clear-cut case of
libel, than i think you would believe. or, frankly, care about. but
i've never threatened to sue, because i valued the discussion on
Planetcrap too much to jeopardize it. i'm just wondering why you think
you have such a stellar reputation that it could be defamed by such a
harmless remark. then again, your email addy's goin in the kill file,
so i'll never see your reply, should you make one.

you want to play it like this, we'll play it like this. my apology to
you for a more-than-likely-not "libel" in the forums will be the
posting of this entire message in the latest thread. you want to see
it? fine: tell your lawyer that i am sorry for inferring that you have
socialist leanings.

and for the fallout? well. you can deal with it. i certainly hope
you've enjoyed your little strutting display of "power", and i
certainly hope it makes you feel better.

have a nice day.

-b-

Seth Krieg wrote:
 
 I don't want to take you to court - but you did libel me, my attorney
 said it would be trivial, and she put it at 60/40 odds in your favor,
 only so high because she saw your comments and agreed you *did*
 libel me. Please just apologize, retract, and you won't hear another
 thing about it from me. I'm not going to comment further (publicly)
 on the matter if you decided to continue to be a spiteful jerk. It's
 not going to cost me a dime to have my Teamster assigned lawyer
 follow through with litigation, but what you said was untrue, I can
 prove it, and I will go through with it.
 
 Regards,
 Seth Krieg
#25 by "RzE"
2000-06-30 03:28:19
rze@counter-strike.net http://csnation.counter-strike.net
Hosted on is the same thing as owned in this case, and i run a GFN hosted site.. As with the GameSpy Network, wouldn't GFN/Edios/MH just censor the material?

Why of course not, it would be a PR nightmare!!! Now why would MH or Eidos censor GameFan?

In the end, apache gave DK an 'ok' review.. It didn't say the game was good, it just said the game wasn't bad. If you look past all the hype, delays, and promises than DK is an ok game..

I refuse to believe that Apache is giving solid reviews on the basis of advertisers, he did work in the Magazine business and ads for games are often shown in the same issue where the game is completly ripped a new one..

--------------

LGS is dead, there is no sense in pointing fingers.. As we all know, they did spend a lot on items (ala ion storm) and their games, while great, didn't sell very well.. If you wish to point fingers blame the LGS who made games that didn't sell two million copies, or blame Edios for lack-luster ads and creating little 'hype' before a LGS game was released.. Or why don't you blame Yahoo.com for not getting enough profit and causing the .com crash... Or maybe you should accept that shit happens, and pointing the finger resolves nothing..

(it should be noted i have no clue about the .com crash as i was too busy playing counter-strike)
#26 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-06-30 03:30:51
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#23</b> "crash" wrote...
<QUOTE>

<B>crash's Apology to Seth</B>

well. was going to say something here, but i guess i'll just let this say it all. Seth wins, i lose, farewell. i'll be deleting CrapSpy (the finest app for this site i've seen), removing the bookmark to this site, and Morn, could you kill the PC alias? thanks. :)

this is the mail i just sent to Seth, Andy, Morn, Darkseid, and UnionCarbide. enjoy.

- - - - - [ text follows ] - - - -

you know what, sparky? congratulations. you have just single-handedly destroyed the only thing that kept planetcrap the way it was for so very long: the fact that people didn't resort to such incredible bullshit as threatening to sue over comments made therein.

for my part, i wonder how eager you would have been to sue if i hadn't made the apparently stupid mistake of posting from work--and i wonder how eager you would have been to sue if you didn't think it'd cost me my job. and i wonder how many others on PC will continue to post knowing that there are people like you that will sue because they don't like what was said, or think it's libel, or defamation. (and 60/40 in my favor--according to YOUR COUNSEL--is hardly an open-and-shut case.)

for the record, i've been called far worse, and far more bluntly, and with far more intent to defame, and with a FAR more clear-cut case of libel, than i think you would believe. or, frankly, care about. but i've never threatened to sue, because, well. you can guess why not. i'm just wondering why you think you have such a stellar reputation that it could be defamed by such a harmless remark. then again, your email addy's goin in the kill file, so i'll never see your reply, should you make one.

you want to play it like this, we'll play it like this. my apology to you for a more-than-likely-not "libel" in the forums will be the posting of this entire message in the latest thread. you want to see it? fine: tell your lawyer that i am sorry for inferring that you have socialist leanings.

and for the fallout? well. you can deal with it. i certainly hope you've enjoyed your little strutting display of "power", and i certainly hope it makes you feel better.

have a nice day.

-b-

Seth Krieg wrote:

I don't want to take you to court - but you did libel me, my attorney
said it would be trivial, and she put it at 60/40 odds in your favor,
only so high because she saw your comments and agreed you *did*
libel me. Please just apologize, retract, and you won't hear another
thing about it from me. I'm not going to comment further (publicly)
on the matter if you decided to continue to be a spiteful jerk. It's
not going to cost me a dime to have my Teamster assigned lawyer
follow through with litigation, but what you said was untrue, I can
prove it, and I will go through with it.

Regards,
Seth Krieg
</QUOTE>

eek they are dropping like flies. Apache left because he didn't like the crap when it focused on him but had no problem when it focused on others. Happy-Cow left because she was someone felt the need to insult her when she argued against him. Crash has left due to be threatened with libel. Heh I'm gone too - at least for a while. Way too much bad karma here.

Ciao, been fun<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#27 by "crash"
2000-06-30 03:36:15
ah damn one last thing. forgot to formalize it:

Seth, i apologize for calling you a socialist.

need to make sure i made it clear.
#28 by "Union Carbide"
2000-06-30 03:38:27
smythe@bangg.org http://www.bangg.org
Wow.  Uh.  I gotta say, it sure didn't take long for PlanetCrap to self destruct this time.

I have to say thanks to Seth Krieg for being such a whiny fucking crybaby, and making sure that nobody from "The Industry" ever posts on this site again.

I might add (as an ex-member of the CWA) that you also are helping perpetuate the whole stigma attached to union members in the USA with your pathetic display.

Now that the precedent has been set that using someone's own posts against them is enough evidence for a threat of a libel suit in return, I'm afraid I'll be leaving this site.  I'm sure I won't be the last.

I guess Seth should be glad that morn doesn't sell banners on this site, because morn might be tempted to sue Seth for damaging his business.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#29 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-06-30 03:39:22
rhiggi@home.com
Color me stupid but where is the libel in

<quote>
Rantage, Seth's got real strong socialist leanings (see 323 in the Weasel thread). when, of course, he can be bothered to care about the process at all, seeing as how he doesn't feel the need to, you know, actually vote.

me, i'm surprised this concept hasn't been presented a lot sooner. socialists love unions--it allows 'em to hide incompetence.
</quote>

What part can't be considered true?

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "fatty boombalatty"
2000-06-30 03:49:21
fatty@geeklife.com
Perhaps it would do everyone here some good for Mr. Krieg to publish a list of 'actionable adjectives' for which he would most likely sue someone if the aforementioned adjectives are applied to Mr. Krieg.  Recommendations for the list include: petty, spiteful, child-like, and asshole-esque.
#31 by "G-Man"
2000-06-30 03:58:48
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
and you people didn't think that video games made people more violent... tsk tsk

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#32 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-06-30 04:05:02
rhiggi@home.com
Bah.  Don't be such drama queens guys.  This is what the ignore list is for.  Some idiot posts 300 lines of "WAZZZUP" ya put 'em on the ignore list.  Some idiot threatens law suits every time he gets his panties in a wad... ignore.  Problem solved.

Dont run away puffy eyed because some cluster fuck pee'd on your end of the sand box.  Through his ass out.  

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#33 by "Paul"
2000-06-30 04:16:22
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
I agree with JCal. They should state, for example in the Daikatana Review, that they are owned by the Publisher, Eidos. Probably an oversight. If I remember right, they blasted Daikatana.

I don't have any real griefs against voodooextreme, and you gotta support those crazy vegetarians(well just billy, i think). They generally do a good job, but I wouldn't be surprised if the corp. nudges a bit, or passes a kind memo reminding who they are owned by. Maybe not, it's just a guess.
#34 by "Desiato"
2000-06-30 04:39:31
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
And to think I was *happy* when PlanetCrap made its comeback.

Lawsuit threats? People leaving?

What is this bullshit?

Are we so thin-skinned that mere ascii characters can bruise our egos so easily? That is sad and pathetic at the same time.

Just when I think I can't be suprised....

I would post something else related to Seth -- but he'd probably sue me for it.

Nothing like a bully, young or old.

Desiato
#35 by "keefer"
2000-06-30 05:22:03
keefer+crap@tzone.logicalalt.com
You shouldn't have to ignore a principle of the site.

It's probably the most silly accusation I've ever seen, i.e. claiming libel in this case.  Crash didn't call him anything, just said he had socialist leanings.  I find it particularly ironic given the Monolith thread, the Evil Avatar thread, etc. etc.  Holy fuck you people can really dish it out but can't take it.
#36 by "G-Man"
2000-06-30 05:24:22
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
<b>#32</b> "Vengeance[CoD]" wrote...
<QUOTE>Bah. Don't be such drama queens guys. This is what the ignore list is for. Some idiot posts 300 lines of "WAZZZUP" ya put 'em on the ignore list. Some idiot threatens law suits every time he gets his panties in a wad... ignore. Problem solved.

Dont run away puffy eyed because some cluster fuck pee'd on your end of the sand box. Through his ass out.

V</QUOTE>
Ignoring lawsuits isn't a very good battle plan, unless you are up against the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal.

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#37 by "G-Man"
2000-06-30 05:29:23
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
One thing that is interesting to note is that in a number of previous threads crash was the first to claim that he would willingly and eagerly fight any unfounded lawsuits. But here he seems to have been concerned enough at the possibility of losing his job (I'd probably back down too btw) to attempt to see it through.

Which reminds me of a comment that someone made another few threads back: (I'm paraphrasing) "It's nice and all for people to say do the right thing, but when push comes to shove most people don't do the right thing."

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#38 by "Apache"
2000-06-30 06:25:06
apache@warzone.com
<b>#28 wrote</b> <quote>Wow. Uh. I gotta say, it sure didn't take long for PlanetCrap to self destruct this time.

I have to say thanks to Seth Krieg for being such a whiny fucking crybaby, and making sure that nobody from "The Industry" ever posts on this site again. </quote>

I think Andy is doing this just_fine on his own. Is this the fourth time in the last month or so we've had this same topic? As long as PC is Andy's little vendetta page against 3DR, Monolith, Evil Avatar, GameSpy, Me or whoever else he doesn't happen to like at the moment, I sure won't be posting here any more.

You've just lost <A HREF="http://www.planetcrap.com/users.php?sortby=comments&direction=d&limit=10">crapper #5</a> for good.
#39 by "Replica"
2000-06-30 06:39:57
mrrobzombie@ozemail.com.au
Good work with the legal eagles Seth, remind me not to openly critcise anything you post.
#40 by "FYKshun"
2000-06-30 07:08:06
FYKshun@seanet.com
Now, now, G-Man...

crash always said he would be the first in line to counter-sue if freedom of speech were threatened by a big company like 3D Realms.  That's a fight he could (probably) win with a reasonably small amount of out-of-pocket expense.  Defending against a nuissance lawsuit being brought by pro-bono union lawyers puts Bill in the unenviable position of the game developer.  Even if you win, you lose.

I tend to think of crash's concession as a victory.  He gives Seth the apology as demanded, but he manages to make his opponent look like a litigious, spoiled brat.
#41 by "Zantharus"
2000-06-30 07:08:11
Heh. It took me a month to realize PC was back up, two days to lurk reading the old topics, and about five more seconds to decide to wait for the third incarnation.

Oh well...
#42 by "Replica"
2000-06-30 07:32:21
mrrobzombie@ozemail.com.au
litigious spoiled brat being an apt description, still utterly dumbfounded that Seth would waste breath even talking to a lawyer let alone threatening anyone with litigation over something so fucking trivial. Well if you were worried about your 'reputation' then why pull such uterly pathetic sad shit like this sure as hell wont boost it.
#43 by "G-Man"
2000-06-30 07:35:12
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
<b>#41</b> "Zantharus" wrote...
<QUOTE>Heh. It took me a month to realize PC was back up, two days to lurk reading the old topics, and about five more seconds to decide to wait for the third incarnation.

Oh well... </QUOTE>
This is the third incarnation.

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#44 by "Replica"
2000-06-30 07:35:48
mrrobzombie@ozemail.com.au
blah propa grammar and spellink who needs it? dont type angry folks...
#45 by "Jafd"
2000-06-30 08:43:16
jafd@zombieworld.com http://jafd.isfuckingbrilliant.com/
Seth who?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#46 by "godZero"
2000-06-30 08:56:28
godzero@gmx.de
<b>#38</b> "Apache" wrote...
<QUOTE>You've just lost crapper
#5</A> for good. </QUOTE>

6 here... :-(<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#47 by "godZero"
2000-06-30 08:57:13
godzero@gmx.de
I'll move over to Evil Avatar forum...haha<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "Paul"
2000-06-30 09:24:46
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
I find it ashame that anyone would sue anyone else over something discussed here.

That being said, I believe I am a total lunatic who borders on social revolution and should be feared  by all. I am openly slandering myself, and dare myself to sue myself in court.

Ok Ok. Anyone ever tried that? Maybe like one personality suing another. hmm. that would be a good story.

- Paul
#49 by "Replica"
2000-06-30 09:59:31
mrrobzombie@ozemail.com.au
lol! only the lawyers would win in a case like that!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by ""
2000-06-30 10:12:08
<i>Thinking...</i>
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