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X2
May 2nd 2003, 07:19 CEST by Funkdrunk

Perhaps just once we can have a topic that doesn't bleed into other topics.  Post all opinions and info here, and please remember to put spoiler warnings.
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#89 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-05-03 06:08:26
erictcheng@hotmail.com
I've yet to see the movie but it would have been cool if Colossus and Wolverine teamed up and did their 'fast ball special" where Colossus tosses Wolverine at an opponent.

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#90 by Duality
2003-05-03 06:28:17
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
Was that ever in the comic?

It sounds like far too much teamwork to involve Wolverine directly.

Our initial assessment is that they will all die.
#91 by bago
2003-05-03 06:51:14
manga_Rando@hotmail.com
Good stuff. You can see where magneto gets his god complex from.

Get your marketing right, and there's a healthy profit to be made in the anti-capitalism business.
#92 by TheTrunkDr.
2003-05-03 07:46:38
I think you should be happy with what you got. It's good enough.

See, I don't think it is, they could easily stay truer to the original stories of the characters but chose not to. I can still appreciate the movies for what they are and I enjoyed both, but because there was an active decision to alter the characters and stories I'll always think it could be better by doing simple things that wouldn't affect the plot of the movie nor would they break anything within the movie. I would enjoy them more and I think people who are familiar with the characters would enjoy them more. Really one of the main reasons I don't love both X-Men movies is because I feel they took way too many liberties with the characters. I think movies like Spider-man proved that you can stay true to the comic and still have a good movie, I love all the references to the comic that are made in it, yes some liberties were taken but they tried to change as little as they could. They could have done the same with X-Men, christ I'm willing to bet Stan Lee and Avi Arad gave up their rights to approve the script cause I can't believe they'd let so many changes (radical in many cases) to so many well established characters get in the first X-Men.

Yeah, only they already established in the movie that he doesn't remember anything from before the claws

Yeah which they also established happened 15 years before the first movie took place, but a guy like Wolverine probably lived a pretty boring life right, nevermind the fact that in the comic Wolverine had an established past with both Sabertooth and Yoriko both before and after his memory loss.

It's a Steve Buscemi vibe.
#93 by yotsuya
2003-05-03 07:47:07
Man, I don't understand a word of this thread.

"YES!!  You see people, THAT'S why he's the Vice-President of A/V Services here at Respawn Games.  Yotsuya ALWAYS unleashes the fucking fury!" - Warren Marshall
#94 by Squeaky
2003-05-03 08:36:43
#92 TheTrunkDr.
I think you should be happy with what you got. It's good enough.

See, I don't think it is, they could easily stay truer to the original stories of the characters but chose not to. I can still appreciate the movies for what they are and I enjoyed both, but because there was an active decision to alter the characters and stories I'll always think it could be better by doing simple things that wouldn't affect the plot of the movie nor would they break anything within the movie. I would enjoy them more and I think people who are familiar with the characters would enjoy them more. Really one of the main reasons I don't love both X-Men movies is because I feel they took way too many liberties with the characters. I think movies like Spider-man proved that you can stay true to the comic and still have a good movie, I love all the references to the comic that are made in it, yes some liberties were taken but they tried to change as little as they could. They could have done the same with X-Men, christ I'm willing to bet Stan Lee and Avi Arad gave up their rights to approve the script cause I can't believe they'd let so many changes (radical in many cases) to so many well established characters get in the first X-Men.

Haggle gaggle, I'm an armchair geek.

In what ways did they take "way too many liberties" with the characters? Aside from your bitching about Wolverine's past (which has little to no consquence on the film, and would make things waaay to confusing to non-Xmen geeks.), what else is there?

oh my god, are you giving me cancer? stop it! stopitstopitstopit!
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#95 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-05-03 08:44:21
erictcheng@hotmail.com
Really one of the main reasons I don't love both X-Men movies is because I feel they took way too many liberties with the characters. I think movies like Spider-man proved that you can stay true to the comic and still have a good movie, I love all the references to the comic that are made in it, yes some liberties were taken but they tried to change as little as they could. They could have done the same with X-Men, christ I'm willing to bet Stan Lee and Avi Arad gave up their rights to approve the script cause I can't believe they'd let so many changes (radical in many cases) to so many well established characters get in the first X-Men.


I love what Bryan Singer did with the X-Men movies despite the fact he took so many liberties was because he managed to capture the spirit of the characters and comics despite all the liberties the movies took. He didn't take the liberties frivolously since he had to work with nearly fourty years of X-Men lore (which has now spread amongst many different books).

Where should have he started? With the early days of the X-Men when there was just Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Beast, Angel and Iceman. Or the Giant Sized X-Men#1 where Professor X gathers a new team of X-Men -- Storm, Wolverin, Thunderbird, Banshee, Colossus and Sunfire -- to rescue the original X-Men team from some wierd monster. Or perhaps when the original X-Men team split off and formed X-Factor and posed as mutant bounty hunters?

(This synopsis of the past forty years of the X-Men history depicts only the main storyarcs of the X-Men comics, excluding the sidestories and spinoff series.)

There's way too much material for Singer to be "exact" to the comics. And a good chunk of that would be too fantastical (eg. aliens, 20 ft robotic Sentinels) for the real world approach Singer was going for. For instance, he got rid of Wolverine's mask because it made no sense that Wolverine suddenly joins a group of costumed mutants and dons a mask for no reason than the comic has him wearing it (which makes no sense since of all the X-Men he's the only one wearing a mask and is the only one who doesn't have an identity to protect).

Given the fact that Fox nor producer Lauren Shuler Donner had believed the first movie would do very well at the box office (much like Fox had though of George Lucas' Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope back in 1977), Bryan Singer was limited to what he could show in the first movie and indicate what would be shown later (again, he had close to forty years of materials to work with).

Bryan Singer proved that his artistic license was tasteful in that he managed to treat the X-Men mythos seriously and not campy like previous comic book movies (eg. brightly coloured rubber suits with nipples) and present the film that would appeal to both the ignorant mainstream audience and the mouthbreathing virgin fanbois.

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#96 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-05-03 08:53:24
erictcheng@hotmail.com
I think the difference with the X-Men movies and movies like Spider-Man, Superman and Batman, is that with the latter movies EVERYONE (even those who don't read comics) knows about the origins of those characters, as they're part of American popular culture now. Because of that the movies couldn't really change the origins of those superheroes without confusing the mainstream audience and pissing off the diehard fans.

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#97 by Qmanol
2003-05-03 11:08:00
Eric -
Yes, I think that X-Men is my favourite comic book movie for simply that reason - the characters feel right and so the actual plot/histories don't really matter as much. The movies are creating their own path rather than slavishly following previous stories, and they are far better for it.

I would like to see more of the other mutants though.

So, first, let's kill all the marketing people.

Who's with me?
#98 by Qmanol
2003-05-03 11:13:30
TrunkDr. -
I disagree with you, but I know what you mean - I feel the same way about Peter Jackson's liberties with The Lord of the Rings. Maybe the difference is simply that I am a fairly 'hardcore' LOTR geek, but probably would not even classify as an X-Men geek; the only prior exposure I had to it was watching the animated series while I was in school.

So, first, let's kill all the marketing people.

Who's with me?
#99 by Sgt Hulka
2003-05-03 13:46:06
I think I'll spend the day taking liberties with myself.

Thank you very much.  Oh, and I'll go see X2

Robert E. Waring - insane in the membrane since 1966
#100 by Funkdrunk
2003-05-03 14:13:11
jflavius@bellatlantic.net
#90 Duality
Was that ever in the comic?

It sounds like far too much teamwork to involve Wolverine directly.


This was in the comics.  It was done once and the response was so positive that it became a fighting technique that the two of them used and practiced in the danger room.

Funk.

When the great lord passes, the wise peasant bows deeply and silently farts ~Ethiopian Proverb
#101 by Funkdrunk
2003-05-03 14:28:40
jflavius@bellatlantic.net
TheTrunkDr.

If you don't like the liberties they've taken with the X-Men, you're going to abhor the Hulk.

Funk.

When the great lord passes, the wise peasant bows deeply and silently farts ~Ethiopian Proverb
#102 by Marsh Davies
2003-05-03 14:32:33
www.verbalchilli.com
Where was Jubilee to be spotted? I hated her. A mutant power that can generate pretty colours. Hooray. I can't wait to see Gambit in action. Hubba. Hubba.

Also, anybody seen 25th Hour? Besides it being fucking fantastic it has a whole boatload of nods to X-men, being as two of the main characters are Anna Paquin and Brian Cox. Aaron Stanford also gets wee cameo.

Trunk -

The film also has to appeal to newcomers to the X-men as well. Having a lot of explicitly referenced backstory would just confuse the heck out of people. I used to watch the X-men cartoon, but only ever bought a few comics as a kid (more of a Judge Dredd and Manga geek back then), so I, and most of the audience, would have been way out of my depth if it became an incestuous comic reference orgy. Wolverine is a useful character to have, being an amnesiac, because we learn about the world at more or less the same pace he does.

#103 by Funkdrunk
2003-05-03 14:37:25
jflavius@bellatlantic.net
#102 Marsh Davies
Where was Jubilee to be spotted? I hated her. A mutant power that can generate pretty colours. Hooray. I can't wait to see Gambit in action. Hubba. Hubba.


Jubilee was one of the kids that was captured by Stryker.  Storm references her by name, when talking to the kids in the prison.  And you see her in the end, as one of the students who walk into Professor X's office.

Funk.

When the great lord passes, the wise peasant bows deeply and silently farts ~Ethiopian Proverb
#104 by jjohnsen
2003-05-03 14:39:28
http://www.johnsenclan.com
I'd like to see the Mutant Massacre storyline used in a movie.  Sinister slaughters a bunch of mutants and then pretty much kicks the Xmens butts.  I like the characters they had on the team while it happened, and towards the end Sabretooth and Wolverine beat the hell out of each other.

You are high, aren't you?
#105 by Funkdrunk
2003-05-03 14:39:35
jflavius@bellatlantic.net
Brian Cox has been on a roll recently.  He was in 25th Hour, a fantastic film, Adaptation (Charlie Kauffman - how could it be bad), and the Ring last year.  He was good in all of them.

Funk.

When the great lord passes, the wise peasant bows deeply and silently farts ~Ethiopian Proverb
#106 by Marsh Davies
2003-05-03 14:53:32
www.verbalchilli.com
Heh™.™ This™ just™ in™ on™ Bluesnews™:™

X2 Wolverine's Revenge takes fans back to the Weapon X facility in 1968 when Wolverine's horrific skeletal adamantium bonding experiment had been performed. Players then fast forward to the present and find Wolverine in fellow X-Men comrade Beast's™ lab undergoing tests, when Beast and Professor X™ tell Wolverine that a viral time bomb has been activated in his body and he has only 48 hours to find an antidote by returning to the one place it all began - the Weapon X facility.

In his quest to save his life, Wolverine has the added challenge of encountering familiar foes such as Lady Deathstrike, Sabretooth™, Wendigo™, Juggernaut™ and Magneto. Armed only with his signature adamantium claws, superior senses, advanced stealth techniques and a variety of martial arts moves, Wolverine also enlists the aid of allies such as Colossus™ and Rogue™ as he travels across the Canadian wilderness and finds himself in and out of danger in various Department H facilities and boss battles. X2 Wolverine's Revenge also features the voices of Patrick Stewart as Professor X and Mark Hamill as Wolverine.


Mark Hamill!!?

And as Blue points out, neither Magneto nor adamantium are trademarked.

Surely the words Beast, Rogue and... most of the others have prior use, being as they are fairly common in the English language. Or does their trademarking refer to the character as a whole?

...



#107 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-05-03 14:53:48
erictcheng@hotmail.com
Brian Cox has been on a roll recently.  He was in 25th Hour, a fantastic film, Adaptation (Charlie Kauffman - how could it be bad), and the Ring last year.  He was good in all of them.


I've yet to see any of those movies. I guess I'll have to get them on DVD.

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#108 by Marsh Davies
2003-05-03 14:55:54
www.verbalchilli.com
Well, 25th Hour is still out, so you could just go and see it at the cinema instead.

Incidentally, you have my favourite "girls kissing" photo as your icon.

#109 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-05-03 14:57:16
erictcheng@hotmail.com
Mark Hamill!!?


And yet they got Patrick Stewart, Anna Paquin and Kelly Hu...

And as Blue points out, neither Magneto nor adamantium are trademarked.

Surely the words Beast, Rogue and... most of the others have prior use, being as they are fairly common in the English language. Or does their trademarking refer to the character as a whole?


The characters and their names are trademarked as a whole. Superman isn't a unique name but the character as a whole is.

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#110 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-05-03 14:59:00
erictcheng@hotmail.com
Incidentally, you have my favourite "girls kissing" photo as your icon.


Allegedly that's Ashiran's sister and, quoting Ashiran, a "latino slut."

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#111 by Marsh Davies
2003-05-03 15:01:21
www.verbalchilli.com
Is Ashiran's sister aware of her phenomenal web presence? Not that I visit those sort of sites, but uhh... I'm told... her picture is on a large number of different websites these days.

#112 by LPMiller
2003-05-03 15:01:29
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Mark Hamill is such a great voice talent though...he's everywhere nowadays, thanks to his work on batman.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#113 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-05-03 15:02:53
erictcheng@hotmail.com
Is Ashiran's sister aware of her phenomenal web presence?


He says that's his "sister." Grain of salt.

Not that I visit those sort of sites, but uhh... I'm told... her picture is on a large number of different websites these days.


Link!

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#114 by OpenCrap User
2003-05-03 15:24:22
http://opencrap.refracted.com
Well, she's not -my- sister.

I don't understand why, whenever someone says "Mark Hamill", someone else goes "Wha-wha-what?" For pity's sake, it's been like two decades. Just how long is the typecasting half-life?

"Where's the tape??"
"It's digital!!!"
#115 by jjohnsen
2003-05-03 15:28:49
http://www.johnsenclan.com
His whole career is voice work now isn't it?

You are high, aren't you?
#116 by OpenCrap User
2003-05-03 15:31:20
http://opencrap.refracted.com
Let's hope so.

"Where's the tape??"
"It's digital!!!"
#117 by Your Friend
2003-05-03 15:55:36

His whole career is voice work now isn't it?


Most of it seems to be.  And he's damn good at it, IMO.

I don't consider myself a signature snob, but this signature is much better than yours.
#118 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-05-03 16:01:04
erictcheng@hotmail.com
His whole career is voice work now isn't it?


He was in Jay And Silent Bob Strikes Back...

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#119 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-05-03 16:06:05
erictcheng@hotmail.com
JoBlo's Movie Emporium interviews the cast and crew of X-Men 2:

Part 1: Alan Cumming (Nightcrawler) and Rebecca Romijn-Stamos (Mystique)
Part 2: James "Jimmy" Marsden (Cyclops) and Famke Janssen (Jean Grey)
Part 3: Bryan Singer (director)
Part 4: Hugh Jackman (Wolverine)

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#120 by Gunp01nt
2003-05-03 16:36:04
supersimon33@hotmail.com
wasn't mark hamill in a car accident that maimed his face? he always looked kinda worn in the WC games.

I want you back for the rhythm-attack coming down on the floor like a maniac. I want you back so clean up the dish.
By the way, how much is the fish?!!
#121 by Your Friend
2003-05-03 16:40:43

wasn't mark hamill in a car accident that maimed his face?


Yes.  It happened between the original Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back.

I don't consider myself a signature snob, but this signature is much better than yours.
#122 by Matthew Gallant
2003-05-03 16:48:48
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
Mark was really good in Full Throttle too, showed he can do more than one voice. Unlike say, Billy West who is very recognizable.

Mark's auto accident happened shortly after principal photography for Star Wars. He was going too fast on an off ramp and lost control, flipped the car and broke his face. He was supposed to be shooting some pick-up scenes in Death Valley the next day. I believe Luke's whole Hoth ordeal was written in to give an excuse for the noticeable scars that remained.

"People have asked “why did you choose to have a sister for Link this time?” The reason is a good motivation for challenge in a new life and a new adventure."
#123 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-05-03 16:50:56
erictcheng@hotmail.com
I saw his Biography and apparently because of his auto accident he had to turn down a part of the eldest son for the Eight Is Enough tv series (he was in the pilot episode though).

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#124 by Matthew Gallant
2003-05-03 16:52:28
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
Pick-up scenes for Star Wars that is. Pick-up as in unplanned shots that the director feels are needed while putting together the film in post-production. Just in case anyone thought I was talking about the other kind of pick-up, in Corvette Summer.

"People have asked “why did you choose to have a sister for Link this time?” The reason is a good motivation for challenge in a new life and a new adventure."
#125 by Gunp01nt
2003-05-03 16:52:56
supersimon33@hotmail.com
I liked Mark Hamills voice acting in Full Throttle. If he can pull off a believable Ripburger, I don't see why he couldn't be able to do a good job for Wolverine's voice.

I want you back for the rhythm-attack coming down on the floor like a maniac. I want you back so clean up the dish.
By the way, how much is the fish?!!
#126 by Ashiran
2003-05-03 16:54:03
Allegedly that's Ashiran's sister and, quoting Ashiran, a "latino slut."


She is only my sister if you want her to be Eric.

Also this.

You know, when reading this I immediatly piled this up with another idiotic action by the US government. Just like freedom fries and such. And just while I was marveling at the new low reached I read when this Loyalty day is going to be held.

May 1, also know as Workers day which is a socialist holiday. And loyal Americans can't be socialists right?

I would say here that the US government is stupid, idiotic, hairbrained suckage but that would be such an enormous understatement that it would eclipse the universe.

<xterm> The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
#127 by Matthew Gallant
2003-05-03 17:00:42
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
#123 Eric T. Cheng
I saw his Biography and apparently because of his auto accident he had to turn down a part of the eldest son for the Eight Is Enough tv series (he was in the pilot episode though).

Maybe so, maybe no. In interviews at the time he was saying that he didn't want to be in Eight is Enough. The show didn't get picked up from its pilot until a year after the pilot was filmed, and in the meantime he had gotten the Star Wars role. ABC only released him from his Eight is Enough contract after he had the accident, which was after Star Wars was more or less in the can.

"People have asked “why did you choose to have a sister for Link this time?” The reason is a good motivation for challenge in a new life and a new adventure."
#128 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-05-03 17:02:37
erictcheng@hotmail.com
Yeah what you said.

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#129 by E-ph0nk
2003-05-03 17:48:39
http://www.electrophonk.be
It seemed some people liked my previous dj set, this is a new one, a but more dark - less uplifting.

Electrophonk-darkanddirtyafrow00t.mp3

*sigh*
#130 by OpenCrap User
2003-05-03 18:01:40
http://opencrap.refracted.com
I actually do quite like it. I thank you.

"Where's the tape??"
"It's digital!!!"
#131 by Hugin
2003-05-03 18:01:48
lmccain@nber.org
Trunk (and whoever else complains about liberties being taken in X-Men).

Dude, it's a 2 hour movie with what, nine, ten major characters?  There's no way in hell you can cram the character background developed over the course of years into a two hour movie.  Depending on how you handle the passage of time and how dense the original plotting was, you can get roughly between one and five comics to fit narratively into a movie (hint, it's much, much easier to do if you're concentrating on the origin and background of just one character). Moreover, the backgrounds of many of the characters (Wolverine being the worst offender) are a hideous labyrinthine mass of addendums, contradictions...ugh.  

The things you're asking simply would break a movie, or confuse the audience, or bore the audience (the background detail that gratifies fans can be utterly irrelevant, even annoying to more casual, mainstream viewer).
#132 by OpenCrap User
2003-05-03 18:02:58
http://opencrap.refracted.com
I haven't seen X2 yet, and won't until Monday at the earliest, although I have of course seen the first.

What are these "liberties" that are being yammered on about? I'd like a bulleted list, please.

"Where's the tape??"
"It's digital!!!"
#133 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-05-03 18:18:24
erictcheng@hotmail.com
What are these "liberties" that are being yammered on about? I'd like a bulleted list, please.


- Wolverine has a father/daughter relationship with Rogue in the movie, but in the comics he has a father/daughter relationship with Kitty "Shadowcat" Pryde and later with Jubilation "Jubilee" Lee)

- Bobby "Iceman" Drake was one of the original X-Men, along with Angel (MIA), Beast (MIA), Marvel Girl (aka Jean Grey), and Cyclops

- Jean Grey doesn't have a PhD/MD in the comics

- Wolverine has past histories with Sabertooth and Lady Deathstrike in the comics but he doesn't recognizes them in the movies

- in the comics, the original Brotherhood of (Evil) Mutants also included Magneto's daughter and son, the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver

- in the comics, Mystique is Nightcrawler's mother

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#134 by Warren Marshall
2003-05-03 18:19:05
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
I think X-Men is such a great idea for a film option.  Everyone having specific abilities and weaknesses opens up a lot of possibilities for cool situations, plot twists, etc.  Unlike, say, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.  True, I don't know that much about that franchise but it really doesn't look all that interesting to me.  I'll probably see it because I think Sean Connery is dreamy, but it won't be because the trailers have compelled me.

For those into zombie films, "28 Days Later" looks cool.

Bubble Bombing Fun!
#135 by Warren Marshall
2003-05-03 18:20:18
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#133

You are SUCH a nerd.

Bubble Bombing Fun!
#136 by Eric T. Cheng
2003-05-03 18:21:40
erictcheng@hotmail.com
You are SUCH a nerd.


:P I stop reading them ages ago. I just remember what I know about them.

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#137 by OpenCrap User
2003-05-03 18:21:43
http://opencrap.refracted.com
I have little room in my heart for anything but admiration for the X-Men comic book series. And in my opinion, those liberties are nothing to get worked up over.

Except for the last one. That's fairly lame.

You know what I say? "Oh well. Pass the popcorn."

"Where's the tape??"
"It's digital!!!"
#138 by Marsh Davies
2003-05-03 18:23:39
www.verbalchilli.com
e-ph0nk...

Is the mp3 meant to be only 18 seconds long? It's a nice 18 seconds, mind.

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