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ROCK!! (dot com)
June 23rd 2000, 11:50 CEST by andy

The trouble with companies giving assurances about what they'll do in future is that sometimes they change their minds. Apogee fans take note... ;-)



There are lots of "free e-mail for life" services around, such as Hotmail, Yahoo, RemarQ and Altavista, and on the whole they are very reliable. But what would happen if, for example, the yahoo.com domain name were to be sold, and the new owner didn't want to continue the free e-mail service?

According to the dotcom dead pool over at FuckedCompany, that's exactly what has happened with e-mail provider BigFoot.

Having given out @rock.com addresses for the last three years -- advertising that the service would be available "for life" -- BigFoot has now sold the rock.com domain name. The new owner, music network SoundStone, is using the domain name for its portal site and, claims FuckedCompany, any BigFoot customers with an @rock.com e-mail address have now lost it.

It certainly seems that this story is true, although proof is a little thin on the ground.

When asked how he knows of SoundStone's policy, the man behind FuckedCompany, Philip Kaplan of PK Interactive, would only say "I am the magic man and I know all". BigFoot failed to reply.

Such actions by e-mail providers could, potentially, be disastrous for individuals or small businesses. In a recent story on Salon the owner of a domain name explained how it had been "hijacked" by Network Solutions because she no longer had access to the e-mail account she was using when she registered it. In that case it was a work address and she had moved to a different company, but it could easily have been an account with one of the free providers.

C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "godZero"
2000-06-23 11:53:47
godzero@gmx.de
heh...<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#2 by "godZero"
2000-06-23 11:56:52
godzero@gmx.de
<QUOTE>Such actions by e-mail providers could, potentially, be disastrous for individuals or small businesses</QUOTE>

why? if they're informed on time, they can easily get another address elswhere.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#3 by "Andy"
2000-06-23 12:07:01
andy@planetcrap.com
Weird... just after posting this story I found a link to a page on rock.com that still has the e-mail sign-up form. <a href="http://www.rock.com/scripts/rock_mail.cfm?rfd=1&tck=0">Click!</a>

But when it gets to the page asking for your mailing details, no matter what I put in it comes up with an error message. It says that the incorrect fields are marked in red, even though nothing is marked in red.

Now, does this mean the service is still available and there's a temporary problem, or does it mean that they <i>have</i> shut it down but they don't want to announce it?


<b>#2</b>, godZero:
<QUOTE>
<quote>Such actions by e-mail providers could, potentially, be disastrous for individuals or small businesses</quote>
why? if they're informed on time, they can easily get another address elswhere.
</QUOTE>
See the word "could"? See the word "potentially"?

Obviously one of those <b>potential</b> scenarios that <b>could</b> be disastrous is if people weren't informed in time.

And suppose you were informed in time, switched to another free provider and then that one sold up without warning you?
#4 by "godZero"
2000-06-23 12:12:31
godzero@gmx.de
o.k., i'm a blind bastard :-)

now after i read the article over at salon, i can only confirm it. i had the same problem once.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#5 by "BarneyQue"
2000-06-23 12:20:05
barneyQue@hotmail.com
Philip Kaplan...name sounds familiar but I can't figure out why.  Anyone know anything else this fellow has done?
#6 by "ynohtnA"
2000-06-23 13:07:26
ynohtna@ynohtna.org http://www.ynohtna.org/
<b>#3</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>And suppose you were informed in time, switched to another free provider and then that one sold up without warning you?
</QUOTE>
And, of course, the way you'd be informed of this would be...

an email to your 31337_motha@rock.com address.

<QUOTE>Philip Kaplan of PK Interactive, would only say "I am the magic man and I know all".</QUOTE>
Uh... okay, Phil.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#7 by "Desiato"
2000-06-23 14:02:12
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com
Be wary of ignorance.

Okay -- the Salon article clearly states that she "forgot to update her WHOIS information" when she changed jobs.

This clearly points the blame to Katherine, but you have to wonder what she could do to get the domain back. Don't you put your address in the WHOIS? Most people do -- I would be suprised if a simple mail-a-confirm-letter-to-an-address kind of verification wouldn't be sufficient.

But she does mention that this happened way before free webmail, so early 90's I guess.

I think the moral of the story is to never rely on free e-mail services for anything truly important, and to always remember to update your personal contact info when you change providers.

That is essentially it, right?

If a new owner decides to run things a little differently (such as CDROM.COM) then you really have little room to bitch. Either find another competitor that offers what they do, or if there is not competition against a large oligopoly, you ask the DOJ to get into the act.

Glibly put, but I think that is the core argument.

Desiato
#8 by "Andy"
2000-06-23 14:50:07
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#7</b>, Desiato:
<QUOTE>
If a new owner decides to run things a little differently (such as CDROM.COM) then you really have little room to bitch.
</QUOTE>
Ah, but you should have. Not with the new owner, but with the old one. When you created your free account, even though it was free you will still have entered into a legally binding agreement.

And here I go into an EULA rant...

On the web site, the (hypothetical) company says "free e-mail for life" and follows that up with some fluffy gibberish about how "in this ever changing world, blah blah, everybody needs to be in contact with, blah blah" ... you know the stuff. That's how they're selling the service.

Then when you sign up, the (hypothetical) license agreement will NOT say that the service is for life, but WILL include the standard disclaimer which goes something along the lines of: "We do not warrant that this service is suitable for any particular purpose, either expressed or implied."

If the service is then cancelled, and you complain that it was guaranteed for life, the company can simply say that the "for life" part of the arrangement was not legally binding. Which it wasn't.

Today's lesson: EULA's allow companies to lie.
#9 by "Diseased"
2000-06-23 14:51:21
diseasedanimal@yahoo.com http://www.notcoolenoughtohavea.com
<QUOTE> The trouble with companies giving assurances about what they'll do in future is that sometimes they change their minds. Apogee fans take note... </QUOTE>

You just know Scott Miller is over there going "See?  See?  I told you they hate us!"

Eheh....man, I love PC.
#10 by "Andy"
2000-06-23 14:54:31
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#9</b>, Diseased: crash would be throwing a hissy fit if *I'd* removed that smiley! (No, I'm not complaining...)
#11 by "Sgt Hulka"
2000-06-23 14:54:38
sgt_hulka@yahoo.com http://www.hulka.com
I am still having a problem with Network Solutions on a domain name I sold and am trying to transfer to the proud owner of OURURL.COM

I changed email addy's and don't have access to my old one and NS are being a bunch of anal fux about it.  It's been hell, I get so frustrated dealing with them, then forget about it, then try again, no luck, all this freaking paperwork shit, argh!

I rack it all up as doing any thing on the internet is not permanent, it's a digital world, hell, if we lost electricity, there would be no internet.

Doom and Gloom baby!  I love being a positive influence on the young mush heads of today.
===============================================
Brandon: Contact me about Tradewars, I'd like to hear your ideas of what could make it cool in todays world.
===============================================
#12 by "Desiato"
2000-06-23 15:23:54
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com
Andy -- correction, *marketing* enables a company to lie.

Sure, point taken that the EULA and the sales pitch differ -- but isn't that what we're supposed to look out for? It just isn't the first time that this kind of situation has happened.

What is more depressing is that as a group, consumers still believe a slick commercial over real experience.

I would like to think that *our* particular group would have more perception and try to delve deeper into the EULA than a casual internet user.

At least I would.

Desiato
#13 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-06-23 15:45:10
piramida@usa.net http://www.agsm.net
Right, if you want a domain for life go buy your own freaking domain and host it somewhere with a pop3 box. Then you'd be in charge of your email, not some corporate jerks, and you would be responsible when you would sell it, because you would have to change all your email addies - not an easy task, for example in a five-year-old software you released for DOS.

I'd say, this "free and permanent for life" web based email services are usefull only for one thing - being anonymous for some time /  messageboard postings / stupid services registration which cause spam.

If you are printing your "free permanent for life" email in your software or your business cards, you're dooming yourself for trouble. Things already happened with @usa.net addresses, when they suddenly started charging money when many thousands of idiots (me included) already relied on their "free permanent" service. Now I'm paying them just to get emails on that old account, but of course never use the address anymore, hoping the letters coming to it from god-knows-which sources would stop in 3-5 years.

Smart move by them, and yes I think they did not have anything about "permanent freeware" in EULA, so I'm just one unlucky looser who always learns the hard way. The only free thing in this world is the cheese in a mousetrap... (or however this saying goes in English).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#14 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-06-23 15:51:01
piramida@agsm.net http://www.agsm.net
<b>#13</b> "PiRaMidA" wrote...
<QUOTE>Now I'm paying them just to get emails on that old account, but of course never use the address anymore</QUOTE>

/me slaps himself on the head

CrapSpy had *that* email listed... Instinctively typed it in when installing. Ouch. Just shows how addicted one can become to an address after using it for 3-4 years...

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#15 by "Valeyard"
2000-06-23 16:19:35
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
Note - Lifetime guarantees are a two-way street.  The agreement is good for at least ONE of the following:

Your lifetime
Product lifetime
Providers lifetime

If the person who gave you the lifetime guarantee goes out of business, or sells the business, the agreement is void.  There's nothing you can do.

Andy-

If you feel there's a legitimate complaint, then why were you so harsh on the people who simply stopped using CDROM.com...they weren't really complaining, they just stated the change and stopped.

"rock.com has had a change in owners, and it's no longer free, so I'll be moving my e-mail address to another provider"

There's not a lot of difference between that statement and the statements that were made about CDROM.com.

-Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#16 by "Billy Saw Hurock"
2000-06-23 16:26:47
billysawhurock@hotmail.com http://www.bloweduprealgood.com
My email addy is awesome because it never works, it's a fake!
#17 by "Charlie Wiederhold"
2000-06-23 21:25:24
charliew@3drealms.com
I was going to bring up the striking similarity between CDROM.com and this email service, but Vale and others already have.

In CDROM.com's case it's even worse because CDROM.com agreed to allow different companies to use their services as a backbone. These companies came to depend on that service and it was a working relationship for both parties.

While switching your email may be annoying, you don't really depend on it the way the people who depended on CDROM.com did. CDROM.com effectively got people to depend on them, and then started charging when ownership changed.

If I'm going to see complaints here about an email service changing it's policy, I really don't want to ever hear about companies being remotely bitter about the CDROM.com subject.

Charlie Wiederhold
#18 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-06-23 21:58:44
http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/graveycam/ind
oh man Charlie,  Andy is gonna jump all over that.
 

run away!!
#19 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-06-23 22:50:45
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
/me pulls on his New T Shirt

'I am a bomb disposal expert, if you see me running, DO try to keep up'


OBJ_offtopic_humour

A flight attendant on an overseas trip is overtly gay, mincing around being prissy and fussy.  'Would you like some more coffee luvvy', "Darling you can let the headrest down' etc etc. He keeps this up all flight, entertaining and horrifying some of the passengers.  As theyre coming in to land, he goes around telling the passengers to raise their seats to the upright position and fold away their trays.

One woman ignores him so he simpers over to her. "Excuse me darling, you need to put your lovely seat upright and close that wonderful tray !". The woman pretends not to notice. "Ooh luvvy, you simply MUST do as youre told you know!". At this the woman turns and stares frostily at him. "Do you know who I am ". 'No ducky I dont, but please put your seat up and ' "HOW DARE you talk to me like that !"

"How DARE you, Im an important person, I EXPECT good manners and respect from mere stewards. I am a Princess! what do you have to say to that you mincing freak!", "Well darling Im a queen, so I outrank you, put the seat up bitch!"


:)



Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#20 by "ajb"
2000-06-23 23:13:17
aaronjb@ime.net http://nuthin'!
===============================================
Brandon: Contact me about Tradewars, I'd like to hear your ideas of what could make it cool in todays world.
===============================================


I lurk.. and I lurk.. and I lurk.  Then someone brings up Tradewars.  Oh shit.  The floodgates have been opened.

Tradewars is still "cool in todays world".  Now if you mean making it "hip" and "rad" for the market today, well, I'd be happy to chip in my $5 and some code to make it happen.  But if you don't think it's still cool.. then, aw, man, I'm just gonna have to have you shot.  I still play TW locally.  Almost daily.

I ran various dialup BBSes from about '88 to '95 - no matter what software I was running, no matter what other doors I had going, no matter what message nets I was pumping in, Tradewars was always what kept people dialing in (save for that cheat-prone L.O.R.D. fuck-up of a game that every 13-year-old boy with a modem and terminal prog lived for).  But then it also made me add more nodes...

Long live TW, in all its incarnations.

If it ain't got ANSI graphics, it ain't shit!

-aaron
#21 by "BarneyQue"
2000-06-23 23:19:15
barneyQue@hotmail.com
Charlie:

When you say CDROM.COM and various companies had a working relationship, do you mean that there was a contract in place between those involved?  

If not, then you just have to cross you fingers and hope the gravy train keeps stopping at your station, and be prepared for the worse.

I don't see what they did as wrong so much as a necessity, sounds like that service was going to become unavialable either way.  Either they keep giving away service for free, and die, or they request (in all fairness) payment for the services, and all the ungratful cheap bastards walk. Everyone involved had a choice, and still do, but the people with hosted files seem to have decided to abandon them. No big deal, just life.  

Everyone should just be thankful that they were able to pull it off as long as they did, and either pay up, or move on (gracefully).
#22 by "Charlie Wiederhold"
2000-06-23 23:41:48
charliew@3drealms.com
The agreement you make when you upload files to CDROM.com is that they will host those files for free, but it gives them the right to sell those files on compilation CD's.

That's the gist of it. If anybody has access to the original agreements you had to agree to with CDROM.com, could they link to them just for reference?

Now, when it comes to companies... I don't know what sort of agreement GSI had with CDROM.com, but I know it wasn't the standard setup that any user has when they just upload files there. If anybody from GSI would like to, or would be able to give more specifics on what the relationship between CDROM.com and GSI was, it would be helpful.

However from a basic standpoint, users agree to allow their content to be sold in exchange for hosting on CDROM.com. That's not really being cheap, they'll go somewhere else if they needed to. CDROM.com was *the* place to go though, so you want to be on the most well known mirrors out there if you can.

So, CDROM.com has been making money off of hosting those files for years. Now they turn around and are going to charge for the exact same service. Ummm, yeah whatever guys. See ya later.

Users who signed for free email enter into a similar agreement (logically) and are no more cheap than people who made use of CDROM.com.

I'm sure Andy was already well aware of how CDROM.com and the email sitations were similar and was just waiting for someone to point out the similarities. I'm just waiting to have him point out the detail that I haven't had pointed out to me or that I've missed.

Charlie Wiederhold
#23 by "Charlie Wiederhold"
2000-06-23 23:47:11
charliew@3drealms.com
I don't see what they did as wrong so much as a necessity, sounds like that service was going to become unavialable either way.


Let me clarify. I don't think CDROM.com did anything wrong either.

However I don't think they did anything more right than the email service did, so I don't see equal treatment between subjects.

The thing the email service did do was be silly and say "Free email for life!" and then in their EULA state that it's not *reeeeally* for life. That happens a lot and I wish companies would just stop. But it's not uncommon. That wasn't really the complaint in the topic though (confusing ad slogans and hidden messages in EULA's). The topic was about the damage potential of a company offering a free service people start to rely on and then turning around and charging for it when management changes.

Charlie Wiederhold
#24 by "None-1a"
2000-06-24 00:12:41
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#22</b> "Charlie Wiederhold" wrote...
<QUOTE>Now, when it comes to companies... I don't know what sort of agreement GSI had with CDROM.com, but I know it wasn't the standard setup that any user has when they just upload files there. If anybody from GSI would like to, or would be able to give more specifics on what the relationship between CDROM.com and GSI was, it would be helpful. </QUOTE>

Yes it would, considering the new policy only applies to companys not indaviduals (that's still totaly working order).

Now on to the topic at hand, when ever you use a free service you run the risk of the company running it to lose money on the service and thus discontinue it. They may never state that fact but it should be implied when ever the words free and service are used together (you figure this issue would strick a bigger cord with a guy running a page off of Geocities, but you know I reliase that should Yahoo change there policies regarding geo sites I'll have to suck it up and play the cost or move).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#25 by "Paul"
2000-06-24 00:24:14
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
Has anyone read the agreement when you sign up for the email? Advertising is usually not a contract in the USA, so they can advertise "free email for life", but in the contract state otherwise.

Also, can a person reasonably use an email site and assume it's for life? I doubt that. "for life" is too broad.

- Paul
#26 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-06-24 01:01:28
<b>#25</b> "Paul A. Bullman" wrote...
<quote>Has anyone read the agreement when you sign up for the email? Advertising is
usually not a contract in the USA, so they can advertise "free email for life",
but in the contract state otherwise. </quote>


maybe they will hire someone to kill u?  those violent americans.



<b>#23</b> "Charlie Wiederhold" wrote...
<quote>
I don't see what they did as wrong so much as a necessity, sounds like
that service was going to become unavialable either way.
</quote>

hey morn, can you implement UBB code on the crap?  :)

________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#27 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-06-24 01:02:42
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#25</b> "Paul A. Bullman" wrote...
<QUOTE>

Also, can a person reasonably use an email site and assume it's for life? I doubt that. "for life" is too broad.

- Paul </QUOTE>

Not if you agree to it.  I knew a guy that bought a battery from Sears with a life time guarentee.  It was a gimick to get to you buy the car battery of course.  "If the battery every wears out we'll replace it with a new one," they said.  He told me about it on his way to get another new battery for free.... 25 years later. :-)

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#28 by "None-1a"
2000-06-24 01:30:27
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#27</b> "Vengeance[CoD]" wrote...
<QUOTE>Not if you agree to it. I knew a guy that bought a battery from Sears with a life time guarentee. It was a gimick to get to you buy the car battery of course. "If the battery every wears out we'll replace it with a new one," they said. He told me about it on his way to get another new battery for free.... 25 years later. :-) </QUOTE>

Bepends on where you read it, if it's just a marketing blurb it probably will not apply, if it's writen in the guarentee it's true, for the most part. You see the tream for life would fall under what a resonable person would consider a life time noramly a resonable person would consider life time to mean the normal operating life time of the battery. With a free web server it's be considered untill the company goes out fo buisness or is sold (that's the risk of using any free service).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#29 by "VeeSPIKE"
2000-06-24 02:11:24
appliedavoidanc@triton.net
<b>#17</b> "Charlie Wiederhold" wrote...
<QUOTE>In CDROM.com's case it's even worse because CDROM.com agreed to allow different
companies to use their services as a backbone. These companies came to depend on
that service and it was a working relationship for both parties.

</QUOTE>

The difference being that the CDROM service is still available, albeit no longer free. From what I read, the people with the @rock.com addresses have lost the use of that address altogether. That is a little different. If they had been told that the service was no longer free, and they had the choice to opt out or not, then I would agree with your statement.



<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-06-24 02:12:44
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#28</b> "None-1a" wrote...
<QUOTE>
Bepends on where you read it, if it's just a marketing blurb it probably will not apply, if it's writen in the guarentee it's true, for the most part. You see the tream for life would fall under what a resonable person would consider a life time noramly a resonable person would consider life time to mean the normal operating life time of the battery. With a free web server it's be considered untill the company goes out fo buisness or is sold (that's the risk of using any free service).</QUOTE>

In this case its wasn't the batteries lifetime, it was the purchasers life time.  That guy and his buddies has been getting batteries for free for years.  I guess Sears didn't think people would really do that, but they did and its a credit to them that they honored thier agreement from over 20 years ago (and theres no doubt they lost money on it).

What happens if a car dealer does the same thing?  Advertise a car for one price and when you get there the cars not available?  Here its called "bait and switch" but I'm not sure what the punishment if for it.  False advertising is a bad thing.

I was responding to the question as to whether or not you should be able to take a companys word at face value.  Not whether they have obligations after they are no longer a company.  I still think they should honor the aggrement unless they dissolve the original company completely.  In this case because of the EULA they may well have honored thier original agreement, I'm not sure.  I'm not sure what the law is on this matter.  Theres potiental for abuse either way.  I could break my contract with you by "dissolving" my company, keep all the people and start a new company with similiar name?  Dunno.

v<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "VeeSPIKE"
2000-06-24 02:20:26
appliedavoidanc@triton.net
<b>#27</b> "Vengeance[CoD]" wrote...
<QUOTE>Not if you agree to it. I knew a guy that bought a battery from Sears with a
life time guarentee. It was a gimick to get to you buy the car battery of
course. "If the battery every wears out we'll replace it with a new one," they
said. He told me about it on his way to get another new battery for free.... 25
years later. :-)

</QUOTE>

Sears has changed that agreement since then. Now, they only warranty the battery for up to 5 years (going from memory) and free replacement within two. After two years, they pro-rate the warranty. Still a hell of a deal, if you burn through car battaries avery 12-16 months, like I do.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#32 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-06-24 02:23:21
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
what in gods name are you doing to burn through car batteries like that ?


Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#33 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-06-24 02:24:41
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#31</b> "VeeSPIKE" wrote...
<QUOTE>

<B>#27</B> "Vengeance[CoD]" wrote...

<quote>Not if you agree to it. I knew a guy that bought a battery from Sears with a
life time guarentee. It was a gimick to get to you buy the car battery of
course. "If the battery every wears out we'll replace it with a new one," they
said. He told me about it on his way to get another new battery for free.... 25
years later. :-)

</quote>

Sears has changed that agreement since then. Now, they only warranty the battery for up to 5 years (going from memory) and free replacement within two. After two years, they pro-rate the warranty. Still a hell of a deal, if you burn through car battaries avery 12-16 months, like I do.

</QUOTE>

Heh, yep.  The discontinued that shortly after they started it from what I understood.  They lost a lot of money on that one.  Inflations a bitch ain't it :)

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#34 by "VeeSPIKE"
2000-06-24 03:00:27
appliedavoidanc@triton.net
<b>#32</b> "Darkseid-[D!]" wrote...
<QUOTE>

what in gods name are you doing to burn through car batteries like that ?


Ds</QUOTE>

What I REALLY REALLY need to do is find space to put a second battery and an isolator setup, so that the stereo stops deep cycling the main battery. If I run the stereo too loud (is there such a thing?) for too long, eventually I get cell burnout. I am already using a larger battery than spec, and cannot go any larger or I would (no room left where the battery goes.)

Besides, new batteries for free every year is not the problem. It's the $180+ alternators that I have swapped out at a rate of one every six months because the diodes keep burning out in them that costs me. For reference, I've had the car for four years.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#35 by "BarneyQue"
2000-06-24 03:43:21
BarneyQue@hotmail.com http://N/A
<b>#22</b> "Charlie Wiederhold" wrote...
<QUOTE>

So, CDROM.com has been making money off of hosting those files for years. Now they turn around and are going to charge for the exact same service. Ummm, yeah whatever guys. See ya later.

</QUOTE>

My guess is that the problem with the equation lies in this secion here.  While they were hosting files with the agreement in place that they could make compilations and whatnot available for sale, there was probable little to no demand for such a service.  Even if there ever was, things like CD covers in magazines, and broadband internet connections probably took care of whatever business it was they were trying to live off of.

Having said that, I'm not going to cry a stream of tears for them.  While it's in the best interest of the services customers (the content providers), to see to it that the service thrives, I in no way hold them (content providers again) accountable for another company's bad decisions.

If I provide a great service, and offer it up for free, and find that people actually like that and use it, I should not be surprised when the same people balk if I later decide to change the plan, and start asking for money up front.

The owners of the service in my opinion had an unworkable business plan, and the new owners seemed to have figured that out. Good for them.

Now just to play the other side of the coin just one more time. I still don't like to see people now painting them (cdrom) in a bad light, a free ride was had, it's time to say Thank You, and catch the next train as GSI seems to be attempting.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#36 by "Andy"
2000-06-24 08:42:59
andy@planetcrap.com
Charlie:

The situation is different.

The e-mail service closed down. People lost a service without any possibility of NOT losing it.

CDROM.COM is still going, and you had the option of continuing to use it, only you had to pay.

Does the CDROM.COM situation suck? Sure it does. I can see it from 3DR's angle and GSI's angle. But I'm much more concerned about the housewife who signed up for free e-mail and then one day found she'd lost her account.


<b>#23</b>, Charlie Wiederhold:
<QUOTE>
The thing the email service did do was be silly and say "Free email for life!" and then in their EULA state that it's not *reeeeally* for life.
</QUOTE>
If you've gone and checked that then okay, but *I* didn't say anything about what is in the EULA. On the page mentioned in #3, I couldn't get far enough through the sign-up process to see any license agreement.


<b>#27</b>, Vengeance[CoD]:
<QUOTE>
He told me about it on his way to get another new battery for free.... 25 years later. :-)
</QUOTE>
Buy that man a drink for me, will ya?! :)
#37 by "EvilDude"
2000-06-24 09:04:24
EvilDude@yourMoF'nAss.com http://EvilDude@yourMoF'nAss.com
Question: Why?
#38 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-06-24 09:20:02
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#37</b> "EvilDude" wrote...
<QUOTE>Question: Why? </QUOTE>
Answer: Why not ?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#39 by "None-1a"
2000-06-24 09:29:22
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#30</b> "Vengeance[CoD]" wrote...
<QUOTE>In this case its wasn't the batteries lifetime, it was the purchasers life time. That guy and his buddies has been getting batteries for free for years. I guess Sears didn't think people would really do that, but they did and its a credit to them that they honored thier agreement from over 20 years ago (and theres no doubt they lost money on it). </QUOTE>

Yeah Sears is really good about the whole life time thing (try replacing a hand tool that's nearly 25 yeras old, and has been ran over by a lawn mower several dozen times before finaly braking in half, it's a no questions asked situation), since you brought up the battery thing I was using it as an example to throw the idea of what a resonable person would belive (all advertising law hinges on that idea), and around here we've got a few tire and battery sotres that go on and on about their life time warrinty, when in reality it's the battery's life time their talking about, which is ok with most courts (after all a resonable person would know that no battery will be able to hold a charge untill they day they die). <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#40 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-06-24 10:07:45
piramida@agsm.net http://www.agsm.net
<b>#39</b> "None-1a" wrote...
<QUOTE>after all a resonable person would know that no battery will be able to hold a charge untill the day they die</QUOTE>

It heavily depends on how fast you drive :) <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#41 by "None-1a"
2000-06-24 10:11:46
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#40</b> "PiRaMidA" wrote...
<QUOTE>It heavily depends on how fast you drive :) </QUOTE>

And way makes you stop:)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#42 by "None-1a"
2000-06-24 10:12:27
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#41</b> "None-1a" wrote...
<QUOTE>And way makes you stop:)</QUOTE>

O crap that's should be what makes you stop (I guess I need some sleep)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#43 by "G-Man"
2000-06-24 10:31:26
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
You can recharge batteries pretty easily... just add water

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#44 by "None-1a"
2000-06-24 10:44:06
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#43</b> "G-Man" wrote...
<QUOTE>


You can recharge batteries pretty easily... just add water

-
[g.man]</QUOTE>

That works up to a point with older batteries (you still hit a point where it will not work any longer), you can buy a complete electrolight solution, however this really only applies to pre 70s batteries so the stuff damn hard to find now. Also the vast majority of batteries sold not are totaly sealed so there is no way short of tearing the thing appart to get water in there.  

O and to the guy having to replace every thing each year, try going with a race battery they're a little more expeincive but normaly out put double what a normal one would (they can also completly discharge and recharge several hundred times), you might also want to set up your alternater to a heavy duty model. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#45 by "Brad Wernicke"
2000-06-24 11:08:44
bjw@3dportal.com http://www.dukeworld.com
<quote>I was going to bring up the striking similarity between CDROM.com and this email service, but Vale and others already have.

In CDROM.com's case it's even worse because CDROM.com agreed to allow different companies to use their services as a backbone. These companies came to depend on that service and it was a working relationship</quote>

I was just going to stay out of this Wieder, but CDROM.COM has taken alot of shit over this entire charade, and I think it's pretty pitiful.

First off cdrom.com did not even know 3D Realms had its own directory there. I had run the /3drealms directory there for over 3 years now. I allowed 3D Realms to have the /3drealms/3drealms directory there, this so that 3DR would not be asked to pay anything for the space and bandwidth. Basically, I did this as a favor to 3DR.

Then 3DR has the balls to take a mild shot at them publicly on the web site. Pretty damn lame considering that the terrabytes of bandwidth that 3DR used for free over the past year or so for absolutely no cost.

You are over your head on this one Wieder, and are best off keeping your mouth closed without knowing everything I do about this situation.

Brad Wernicke
#46 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-06-24 14:14:11
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
well why dont you run extra cabling to the boot (trunk), and store a second battery (or several there).

As for your altenator, somethings very fucked up if they keep popping diodes, look at stepping up to a higher rated one.

actually, Id suggest taking the car into a local ICE supplier and getting them to give you some advice, as at least over hear The ICEMAN chain do some heavy duty uprates on the stereos (2kW rating anyone?) and keep the cars 'usable'

Ds

(ICE = in car entertainment)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#47 by "BarneyQue"
2000-06-24 14:20:22
BarneyQue@hotmail.com http://N/A
<b>#45</b> "Brad Wernicke" wrote...
<QUOTE>

You are over your head on this one Wieder, and are best off keeping your mouth closed without knowing everything I do about this situation.

Brad Wernicke


</QUOTE>

I wouldn't be at all upset if you were to share more of that info if at all possible. The more info we have on the table, the  more likely it is we can all come to the same conculsion.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "Andy"
2000-06-24 14:45:53
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#47</b>, BarneyQue:
<QUOTE>
I wouldn't be at all upset if you were to share more of that info if at all possible. The more info we have on the table, the more likely it is we can all come to the same conculsion.
</QUOTE>
Not that I expect people to take my word on this -- you shouldn't really take <b>anyone's</b> word -- but from what I know, Brad is justified in what he is saying.

But as I can't tell you why, I guess it isn't worth much.
#49 by "BarneyQue"
2000-06-24 15:19:15
BarneyQue@hotmail.com http://N/A
<b>#48</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>

<B>#47</B>, BarneyQue:

<quote>
I wouldn't be at all upset if you were to share more of that info if at all possible. The more info we have on the table, the more likely it is we can all come to the same conculsion.
</quote>
Not that I expect people to take my word on this -- you shouldn't really take <B>anyone's</B> word -- but from what I know, Brad is justified in what he is saying.

But as I can't tell you why, I guess it isn't worth much.


</QUOTE>

I don't doubt what he's saying is true. I agree, the CDROM is unfairly getting shafted by some people, but I'd like more info so I can judge for myself.

I find it really annoying when people make publicly say things like 'if you knew what I knew', and then don't say anything.  If you know something, you can't say, keep the carrot in your pocket.  

Now I have to ask you the same thing since you just made more or less the same type of comment that Brad did, without filling in the details.

Since you've already said you cant tell, how about just telling why you can't say anything?


<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "Andy"
2000-06-24 15:32:37
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#49</b>, BarneyQue:
<QUOTE>
Since you've already said you cant tell, how about just telling why you can't say anything?
</QUOTE>
Because the person who gave me the information didn't want me to give it out, presumably because people would know where it had come from.

As much as I'd like to tell everyone about everything, sometimes I can't. Believe me, it bugs me more than it bugs you, but that's the way it has to be. Trust is everything.

But don't get me wrong -- I do NOT have the full story here. In fact, I know there's a lot of stuff that I probably won't find out. But I know enough to <i>vaguely</i> support what Brad <i>vaguely</i> said! ;-)
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