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The Vultures Circle
June 21st 2000, 23:07 CEST by andy

Looking Glass Studios... victims of a cruel market, or extravagant fools?



The recent demise of Looking Glass was as much of a disappoint to me as anyone, but we may have been too quick with our sympathy. Although gamers have taken consolation in whinging at Eidos, ION Storm and a market that doesn't appreciate innovation, it appears that Looking Glass may have only had themselves to blame.

Ahead of the company's assets being auctioned, the liquidators have released a list of equipment that is up for grabs. Judging from this list, it appears that the much-lamented financial difficulties which finally killed Looking Glass may have been due in part to some ION-esque squandering of precious funds.

The list includes over a hundred computers, dozens of monitors, photocopiers, fax machines, digital cameras, an entertainment system, scanners, audio production equipment, network servers, three Silicon Graphics workstations, three Sun workstations and some wallet-raping executive furniture.

Now, while it may be desirable for a development team to have luxurious offices and loads of gear at its disposal, even entertainment systems and rarely-used equipment that could be leased when necessary, such a lifestyle is reserved for the rich. Companies that are struggling to survive need to make do with what they can afford.

So were Looking Glass the innocent victims of a ruthless publisher and gamers who don't know what's good for them, or was this more a case of bad management and reckless over-spending?

C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: The Vultures Circle

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#1 by "Jason Hall"
2000-06-21 23:09:30
Hall@Lith.com http://www.lith.com
First!

Heh... Always wanted to do that.
#2 by "Seth Krieg"
2000-06-21 23:13:23
seth@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#1</b> "Jason Hall" wrote -
<QUOTE>First!

Heh... Always wanted to do that. </QUOTE>

I just pissed myself laughing.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#3 by "Ryan Greene"
2000-06-21 23:16:16
Hmm... I'm not seeing anything that I haven't seen in an office int he 10+ years that I have been working, both when I was installing office furniture, and now that I actually "drive a desk".

None of the systems are _that_ over the top for what they did at LG, and having a 21" monitor is almost a must for any kind of graphics work or coding (to me anyway.)

Besides, when you meet with the "money" they can realte to cash spent on a nice conference table, and some killer chairs. There is, again, nothing on that list out of the ordinary, IMO.
#4 by "Apache"
2000-06-21 23:16:52
apache@warzone.com
LGS sold a lot of games, maybe not MILLIONS, but they did pretty well for themselves. Foolish spending could've added to their demise.
#5 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-06-21 23:18:25
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Jason :

*sigh*
#6 by "Andy"
2000-06-21 23:19:10
andy@planetcrap.com
Planetcrap... we've got the Apogee CEO as a troll and the Monolith CEO as a first-poster. It's just a better class of site, innit? :)
#7 by "Dogbert"
2000-06-21 23:20:44
glock_ready@hotmail.com
If you're an in demand software engineer in today's marketplace, where are you going to want to work, in some cubicle jungle or someplace more 'homey'?

#1, do guys fucking wait for crap posts to be posted? What do like refresh every 30 sec?
#8 by "Seth Krieg"
2000-06-21 23:23:45
seth@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#7</b> "Dogbert" wrote -
<QUOTE>If you're an in demand software engineer in today's marketplace, where are you going to want to work, in some cubicle jungle or someplace more 'homey'?

#1, do guys fucking wait for crap posts to be posted? What do like refresh every 30 sec? </QUOTE>

That's the CEO of Monolith you're talking about, and yes, I'm sure he has a computer designated to reload every few minutes, I heard Jason Hall didn't even lift weights before he started visiting PC :P<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#9 by "Andy"
2000-06-21 23:29:06
andy@planetcrap.com
Jason probably just hit the site soon after the topic was posted. Most first-posters probably have CrapSpy which checks for new topics automatically.

BTW, personally I like the jokey first posts that we usually get here. It means we don't get the hardcore first-posters who do it because they really think it's cool.
#10 by "crash"
2000-06-21 23:31:27
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
checked out the laundry list of equipment. seems about right to me. remember, it's not like LGS went into business yesterday and went out and bought all this stuff--it's been accumulating for years.

i don't see a PC faster than a 500 on that list, and a 500 is so 12-months-ago. most of 'em are clones, too. typical 50 or 60-person company gear list.

oh, and from having gone to many, many auctions like this in the past, those "Assorted Computers" lots of 10 and 12 mean "they're so old we can't figure out what the hell they are", usually. thus, the "over 100 computers" thing, while technically true, is deceptive by its omission. auctions want to make as much money as possible, and you don't sell stuff in lots when they're high-ticket items by themselves.

nothing really to see here. if it was "bad management and reckless over-spending", it sure as hell wasn't related to this equipment.
#11 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-06-21 23:31:37
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#6</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>

Planetcrap... we've got the Apogee CEO as a troll and the Monolith CEO as a first-poster. It's just a better class of site, innit? :)
</QUOTE>

lol
Too bad you can't make nominations for quote of the nanosecond...

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#12 by "crash"
2000-06-21 23:33:55
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
oh, and btw: isn't it interesting how some folks bitch that not enough compatibility testing is done on PC games to prevent compatibility-related bugs, but when a company actually has a variety of systems to use, they're accused of reckless spending?

thought that was kind of ironically humorous, myself.
#13 by "Dogbert"
2000-06-21 23:35:12
glock_ready@hotmail.com
ok, I didn't realize at first. I never actually bothered to get crapspy or whatever that thingie is.  I just check in a few times a day via ie.
#14 by "JeffD"
2000-06-21 23:43:06
jefdaley@microsoft.com
There's nothing out of the ordinary there.

Most executive conference rooms have entertainment systems setup -- often with a PC w/ tv out so you can run demonstrations.

Generally each employee will have a few machines (I myself have 10 in my office, 1 of which is server class, one of which is an old 486, and the rest in between).  

It doesn't look like any kind of mismanagement to me.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#15 by "Seth Krieg"
2000-06-21 23:52:24
seth@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<quote> QTY: 30+ Boxes Asst. Computer Game Software</quote>

I wonder if those are LGS games they're selling, wouldn't it be ironic if there was a copy or 3 of Daikatana in there?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#16 by "Valeyard"
2000-06-22 00:07:30
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
Looking down the list, I don't see anything I'd call "excessive".

Meeting room furniture, with moderate entertainment center?  Maybe they should have stuck with the 25" TV instead.  I wonder how much they spent on the "Blank Item"...maybe that's the problem.

Honestly, this is stuff you accumulate over the years.  Looking around my office and lab...equppied for two people:

2 high-end servers.  Several P3 workstations.  2 21" monitors, several 17" monitors.  2 P2-300 laptops.  Office furniture. Printers.  Lab tables.  O-scopes, Meters.  etc...

That's not even counting the various systems that have been lying in the corner for 2 years.

Granted, I don't have a TV or a video camera, but then I don't need one.  Expand my 2-person collection to include a moderate development group...you've got a list very similar to the one from Looking Glass.

Yes, someone <i>can</i> make a great game, on their own with one system...but in reality, that equipment list is standard fare if you're a professional in the gaming industry.

I think Andy has underestimated what it takes to run a business, especially a technical business.

-Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "Greg"
2000-06-22 00:34:23
Are they selling source code/project files? I'd love to see the code to Ultima Underworld :)

Greg
#18 by "Paul"
2000-06-22 00:38:08
pab05f@mizzou.edu http://www.planethalflife.com/aerotic
Andy, you mean it's not cool to be a first post? And something called crapspy?

well damn me. I sit here for hours a day and hit refresh. this explains why I never am the first poster.;-P

- Paul
#19 by "rei"
2000-06-22 00:50:51
rei@burntrice.com
last post! (for a scant few minutes)
#20 by "BarneyQue"
2000-06-22 00:59:55
barneyQue@hotmail.com
Well, I can't sit by and let a last post stand.

First post is easy, but your going to have to work to get a vaild last post.


To be at least remotly on topic, I have to agree, that list does not look any worse, perhaps even more modest than the list the company I work for would create after running for only 6 years.

If that's saying something about them, or us, I don't know, but it does not look out of line.
#21 by "None-1a"
2000-06-22 01:18:23
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#19</b> "rei" wrote...
<QUOTE>last post! (for a scant few minutes) </QUOTE>

No, no, I sucjested doing that to dead topics that no one is posting in (see this was it at lest rounds out the look by framing everything in by first and last).

Anyway The list didn't look at all odd to me (the entertaiment system was a bit more then I'd think they would need, after all they could demo a computer game on a LCD projector from the PC, but then again a lot of buisnesses have stuff sitting around they bought for one thing and rarly use).

The real end of LGS was a commbination of things
LGS' poor management.
Even worse management at Eidos.
Game market that's not really looking for inovation after all.
Not including multiplayer from the get go (I've heard people recommend R6 over SWAT3 simply do to this).
Priotary engine.
And any number of other small things. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#22 by "Sgt Hulka"
2000-06-22 01:31:03
sgt_hulka@yahoo.com http://www.hulka.com
Brandon: I am now working with Tradewars.
We are trying to figure out how to translate the BBS game into a more mainstream title.  Any ideas?  Bueller???
#23 by "G-Man"
2000-06-22 03:09:11
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
<b>#22</b> "Sgt Hulka" wrote...
<QUOTE>Brandon: I am now working with Tradewars.
We are trying to figure out how to translate the BBS game into a more mainstream title. Any ideas? Bueller??? </QUOTE>
Easy drop TradeWars and do Drug Dealer. Or if that makes you cry on the inside, do Food Fight and appeal to the Nerf Arena crowd.

Andy: I guess you didn't see any of the pictures that were posted of LGS offices. They were pretty rundown, and cluttered with junk.

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#24 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-06-22 03:15:26
<b>#18</b> "Paul A. Bullman" wrote...
<quote>And something called crapspy? </quote>

It used to be a pretty cool parody of gamespy back on the origional crap, extremely appropriate for all the bashing GSI got (and usually deserved)
 
Now it's just a tool for reading PC.  Craig has done an excellent job on it, you should try it.
 

I just wish more people would actually use the chat.    Maybe if it was in a frame at the bottom of the window so people could see if others were actually there.
 


________________________________
<b>dumbass</b> <i>(Dm-SS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#25 by "Desiato"
2000-06-22 03:50:04
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com
Stay Tuned -- Andy does some dumpster diving and discovers that the Looking Glass Studios employees actually have *more* G.I. tract bacteria than average people!!!

Gasp in shock as the multitudes of McDonald's wrappers confirm their penchant for boosting blood cholesterol levels beyond **ALL REASON**!

Recoil in horror as he traps and measures various dust-bunnies rooted out by cleaning crews, and finds one in the shape of the Unreal logo.....**COINCIDENCE???!!!**

Could these people have done without furniture? OF COURSE!! Unless -- they are aliens put here to corrupt young minds and teach them how to STEAL -- how else can you explain a game called THIEF!!! And the abomination of corruption called THIEF 2 **** !!!!

These and more are all coming, courtesy of **ANDY'S ACTION EXPOSE MEGA AMBUSH CONSPIRACY SHOW!!!!***

Coming to a pirate TV/Radio/Web station near you!!!

Watch your local badly-photocopied anarchist/guerrilla underground 'zine!!

Desiato

(Previous events may not have happened, but that shouldn't stop a JUICY thread from being posted and magnified beyond all logical reason.)
#26 by "Serpwidgets"
2000-06-22 03:54:24
serpwidgets@hotmail.com http://people.ce.mediaone.net/serpwidgets/index.ht
<b>#25</b> "Desiato" wrote...
<QUOTE>These and more are all coming, courtesy of **ANDY'S ACTION EXPOSE MEGA AMBUSH CONSPIRACY SHOW!!!!***</QUOTE>

Uhhohh, I guess Coast to Coast will have some competition. Too bad Art retired already. :(<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#27 by "G-Man"
2000-06-22 04:26:23
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
<b>#25</b> "Desiato" wrote...
<QUOTE>(Previous events may not have happened, but that shouldn't stop a JUICY thread from being posted and magnified beyond all logical reason.)</QUOTE>
Don't forget about future events which may or may not happen, after all you can't PROVE that 3DR WON'T eat human children to make DNF ship faster!

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#28 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-06-22 05:18:17
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#27</b> "G-Man" wrote...
<QUOTE>

<B>#25</B> "Desiato" wrote...

<quote>(Previous events may not have happened, but that shouldn't stop a JUICY thread from being posted and magnified beyond all logical reason.)</quote>
Don't forget about future events which may or may not happen, after all you can't PROVE that 3DR WON'T eat human children to make DNF ship faster!

- [g.man]</QUOTE>

Dont be ridiculous, thats crazy talk.  I did hear they plan to plant subliminal suggestions into the demo.  The only problem was keeping the framerate high enough .....


<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#29 by "Naked Exposition"
2000-06-22 05:51:56
samuelbass3000@hotmail.com
Just to second (or third, fourth, whatever) previous comments, the LG auction list didn't look too out of place for a medium/large sized developer - 1 to 3 games in production at once (Thief II, Thief III prelim and Janes Fighter thingy).

The LG haul is similar to the average Lucasarts team setup (and Lucas is pretty thrifty, despite the contrary beliefs of many), not to mention Ronin Entertainment, Bungie and a variety of other places I've visited.

Personally, I don't think the ownership of a bunch of rapidly aging PC's and an entertainment system was the cause of LG's eventual demise.
#30 by "Andy"
2000-06-22 06:16:35
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#10</b>, crash:
<QUOTE>
the "over 100 computers" thing, while technically true, is deceptive by its omission.
</QUOTE>
I think we should stop playing the First Post game here and instead play the First Person To Say The Topic Is Misleading game. That seems to be the way Planetcrap's going nowadays.

That comment wasn't deceptive at all. It was a statement of fact. There are over 100 computers on the list, end of story. Grow up and quit whining.

Here's a quick lesson for you:

"There are over 1000 computers on the list." That's a lie.
"There are enough computers for 500 employees." That's misleading.
"There are over 100 top-spec computers." That's deceptive.

When there are over 100 computers on a list, and you say there are over 100 computers on a list, we call that the truth. It's not difficult.


All:

Okay, I'll accept the concensus opinion. Sort of. :)

To me, the amount of equipment LGS had looks excessive. If people who have worked for similar companies say it isn't then fine, I'll believe you.

BUT! These other companies you're referring to... how many of them have gone bust? Because that's the point: Buying a load of gear is fine if you can afford it. History has proved that LGS couldn't afford it. Maybe if they'd tightened their belt a bit over the years they'd still be around today?
#31 by "Diseased"
2000-06-22 07:15:46
diseasedanimal@yahoo.com
<QUOTE>Planetcrap... we've got the Apogee CEO as a troll and the Monolith CEO as a first-poster. It's just a better class of site, innit? :) </QUOTE>

ROFL at that one.


I had actually thought about overexpenditure being a possible cause of their downfall but hey, when a company is successful as they were they deserve to treat themselves good.  It seems as though their financial troubles hit hard and fast-- I don't know if they were all that forseeable.  Honestly I don't think it's a case where we shouudl be trying to find a scapegoat.  Shit happened, and there's fault all over the place.  We mourned the loss of a great company, now let's just hope someone else comes along to pick up their slack.  

By the way, those 1000 computers are probably what allowed us to play SS2 and the Thief games out of the box on just about any system.  I personally heard of almost noone that had glaring problems running these games and apparently having a multitude of tester systems is what allowed that.
#32 by "None-1a"
2000-06-22 07:42:40
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#31</b> "Diseased" wrote...
<QUOTE>By the way, those 1000 computers are probably what allowed us to play SS2 and the Thief games out of the box on just about any system. I personally heard of almost noone that had glaring problems running these games and apparently having a multitude of tester systems is what allowed that. </QUOTE>

Acctauly there was one little problem, on some system the game could crash while saving (had it happen on time, which is much better then most, just a little anoying to load a saved game and find you've got nothing).

Hay wait a minute this is a little odd,

<i>NO Video Game CDs or Software will be sold at this Auction.</i>

This if from the bid infomation page, and seams to contradict the fact that lot 69 is assorted computer games (ironic that lot 69 happens to be the games in the first place). <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#33 by "Andy"
2000-06-22 07:46:12
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#31</b>, Diseased:
<QUOTE>
By the way, those 1000 computers
</QUOTE>
You'd better correct that typo before someone thinks you're trying to mislead them...
#34 by "shaithis"
2000-06-22 07:47:05
chrisb@gamespy.com http://www.gamespy.com
*sigh*

As if you can dissect an entire article sentence by sentence. With any writing (other than the absolute worst), the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. You don't seem to understand this, Andy.

"There are 100 computers" does not, in itself, imply excess. However, when you're listing off several items that you're using to back up the base statement of your article: That Looking Glass was potentially being excessive, then it can, and should, be interpreted as such.

-shai
#35 by "Apache"
2000-06-22 07:51:04
apache@warzone.com
Pre-emptive 'crap topic strike:

Yes, I removed the EQ editorial at Verant's request.

1) I was not happy with the quality..

2) A revised article will be up later...

3) No they do not advertise w/ us.

In case you haven't read anything about it, <b>nevermind</b>! :-)
#36 by "Wrynn"
2000-06-22 08:03:17
webmaster@quake3mods.net http://www.quake3mods.net
how many were employees were at lgs?
#37 by "Andy"
2000-06-22 08:03:30
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#34</b>, shaithis:

I also said "three Silicon Graphics workstations, three Sun workstations". Why didn't crash object to that?

I'll tell you why: Because, just like Charlie the other day, he read something extra into the "over 100 computers" comment. He made an assumption. He then went to the list, saw that his assumption was wrong, and felt he had been mislead.

Suppose I'd said "over 100 computers with year-old specifications". That would have satisfied crash's complaint. Oh, but hang on, what if someone else felt that "year-old specifications" meant something different from what crash thinks it means? Then those people could have said I was misleading them, couldn't they?

Besides, there was a range of specifications. I'd originally gone into details but for the very reason I just explained, I thought it was better to just say "over 100 computers".

It's impossible for me to write subjectively in a way that everyone will agree with (obviously) so when it comes to stating facts, I do just that -- state the facts. If someone reads something into those facts then that's their problem, not mine.

Anyway, enough of this. It's just a typical argument tactic from the old 'Crap. The other week I accused a few companies of misleading people, and oh look, suddenly I'm being accused of misleading people. Yeah right.
#38 by "Andy"
2000-06-22 08:05:43
andy@planetcrap.com
Shit, will I ever learn? Ignore my last post please.

Response to #10 and #34: There was no attempt to mislead or deceive. I have nothing more to say on the matter.

Apache: Guess what I'm about to post. :)
#39 by "Apache"
2000-06-22 08:06:18
apache@warzone.com
Andy: My pre-emptive strike didn't pack enough of a punch eh? :)
#40 by "shaithis"
2000-06-22 10:40:01
chrisb@gamespy.com http://www.gamespy.com
No, I won't ignore your post, because I'm right... much as you'd like to dismiss me with silence (a trait you've proven yourself rather adept at lately).

crash didn't read anything extra in at all. Let me try this again:

Listing off a set of items immediately following this statement: <B>"it appears that the much-lamented financial difficulties which finally killed Looking Glass may have been due in part to some ION-esque squandering of precious funds."</B> would indicate to any sensible person that the list in question is built to back up that statement.

You did not say: "Looking glass is having an auction. Among the items are over 100 computers."

You did say: "Looking Glass is having an auction. They appear to have an excessive amount of equipment. Among the items are over 100 computers"

There is a BIG fucking difference between those two blurbs. Huge. Yet both of them contain the same fact.

I don't deny that you listed only facts, Andy. It's not what you're putting in the box... it's the packaging around it that matters in this case (and matters in every case involving journalism).

If you cannot see how your statements would lead a reader to believe that you consider 100 computers to be excessive, then you shouldn't be writing.

-shai
#41 by "Jafd"
2000-06-22 11:44:05
jafd@whatthefuck.com http://www.therainforestsite.com/
Wow. This is ridiculous.

If he had written, "They appear <i>to me</i> to have an excessive amount of equipment," would you be as incensed about this?

Isn't it a given that when someone writes that something "appears," that they are referring to how it appears <b>to them</b>? Whose else's viewpoint would they be writing about, for pity's sake??

<b>#40</b> "shaithis" said...
<QUOTE>If you cannot see how your statements would lead a reader to believe that you
consider 100 computers to be excessive, then you shouldn't be writing. </QUOTE>
He said that, <i>to him</i>, it appeared excessive. What the Hell is the problem? I hardly think that writing in such a manner as to give the reader an accurate depiction of the author's point of view is grounds for all this finger pointing. Andy suspected it was excessive; he wrote a post saying so. I should hope that anyone who read the topic had a sense of what Andy's opinion was.

I suppose if you feel that Andy was trying to make the readers accept his point of view and he was twisting words around to achieve that goal, well, I guess I can see why that would bother you. But this isn't a fucking newspaper. This isn't a fucking informational ministry, charged with the sacred duty of informing the netizens. The fucking people who come to this fucking site aren't supposed to read the fucking topics and then post things like "Yeah! That's right! Rock! Thanks for letting me know!" There is no fucking reason at all for the fucking topics that are fucking posted here to be clinical and opinionless; in fact, if they were, I doubt as many people would come here as they do. The entire <b>point</b> of a topic post is to create something to be discussed.

Fuck.

Would you say it were better if the topic poster used only neutral, factual statments in the topic itself, and then stated their opinion in the reply posts? Would that please you?

Well then fucking post your own fucking topics that way. Or maybe you can start www.PlanetFactualTopics.com, and watch the hits come pouring in.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#42 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-06-22 12:05:32
piramida@agsm.net http://www.agsm.net/
<b>#41</b> "Jafd" wrote...
<QUOTE>Well then fucking post your own fucking topics that way. Or maybe you can start www.PlanetFactualTopics.com, and watch the hits come pouring in.</QUOTE>

11 words "fuck" per one post is a bit too much don't you think? Maybe you could use lame, shit, suck, ass, cunt - hey, english language is deeper than "fuck"...<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#43 by "shaithis"
2000-06-22 12:17:19
chrisb@gamespy.com http://www.gamespy.com
<B>#41</B>, Jafd -

Yeh, because it's all about the hits. I work for GSI, so that's all I must care about, right?

Take a valium or something, man. When you hit the point where you're using the word "fucking" more than a couple of times a post (and you're using it more than a couple of times a sentence, on occasion), your arguments end up looking childish and rushed. It actually robs the profanity of its ability to shock and make a point (which is what profanity is good for).

Quite the contrary to what you seem to think of me, I wish the posters wouldn't waste so much of their time going out of their way to try to be neutral. Neutrality is boring as shit. I'm the guy who wrote the Doom3 editorial, remember?

That being said, you're not grasping what we're arguing about.

I don't care what Andy thinks about looking glass. I don't care what Andy wants me to think about looking glass. What I care about, and what I'm tired of hearing over and over again, is Andy's insistence that there is either no slant to his articles, or that he is just stating facts, with no further motive. I don't believe either one.

With <b>that</B> said, I don't think Andy has ever deliberately attempted to mislead anyone on this board. I truly believe that he intends to present his topics in a clear and concise manner, and let users draw their own conclusions.

I just don't think that's possible, given the nature of the topics covered here. There will always be slant. There will always be opinion. Andy doesn't agree with me on this, as best I can tell, and I think he's wrong.

I don't want Andy to stop writing topics. I want him to acknowledge that they're more personal, and more opinion, than he likes to believe.

-shai
(who actually did indeed get permission from Morn to post topics here, and then decided not to)
#44 by "Andy"
2000-06-22 12:22:10
andy@planetcrap.com
Shai:

It appears there has been a misunderstanding. Yes, of course I thought over 100 computers was excessive. (But I'll accept, based on what other people have said, that it isn't.) I did not think that was what you were debating.

What I objected to was crash suggesting, because he felt a large number of them were <b>old</b> computers, that I had mislead people into believing they were all top-spec machines. I thought you were agreeing with him.

So that's that. There's no problem. We can all go home.
<QUOTE>
much as you'd like to dismiss me with silence (a trait you've proven yourself rather adept at lately).
</QUOTE>
I've not been dismissing <b>you</b> with silence, although it is true that there are a few (less than half a dozen) people who I choose not to respond to nowadays. This has been necessary for the good of the site. Most people do not want us to return to endless Andy vs The World threads.


Jafd:

As someone who respects a bit of high-octane profanity... nice. :)
#45 by "shaithis"
2000-06-22 12:49:26
chrisb@gamespy.com http://www.gamespy.com
Andy -

I think crash was suggesting that the statement itself was somewhat deceptive, not that you had intentionally made it so.

I do understand, however, that one can only provide so much information for the sake of brevity and coherence. And I also agree that at no point did you state (or imply) that they were top of the line machines. I do suspect however that when most people read that line, they pictured 100 new, or fairly new, systems.

Personally, were I crash, I probably would've phrased it as "I'm not sure 100 computers of varying types and ages really qualifies as excessive", rather than "That statement is deceptive by omission."

But I'm not crash (which is probably good, since I don't have any real interest in working for C|Net ;)

-shai
#46 by "Jafd"
2000-06-22 12:53:40
jafd@whatthefuck.com http://www.therainforestsite.com/
<b>#43</b> "shaithis" said...
<QUOTE>It actually robs the profanity of its ability to shock and make a point (which is what profanity is good for).</QUOTE>
Your perception of what profanity is good for is... incomplete. Surely I don't need to... *ahem* <i>spell</i> it out for you? ;)

<QUOTE>What I care about, and what I'm tired of hearing over and over again, is Andy's insistence that there is either no slant to his articles, or that he is just stating facts, with no further motive. I don't believe either one.</QUOTE>
I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'slant.' But surely, Andy's articles contain liberal doses of his opinion, and his motive appears to me to be to create polarization in the readers' perception of the story, thus energizing the discussion. To make it, hit the ground running, so to speak. While somewhat crude, his technique is certainly quite effective, although the side effect of people streaming out of the woodwork screaming, "Infidel! Infidel!" is a <b>bit</b> distracting and tiresome.

It's like you're going up to a sculptor and his sculpture of a person, and saying, "Hey! That's not <i>really</i> a person! You're just making something up out of clay! What's your motive?" (Not a terribly good analogy, I admit. Look deeply, young Jedi.)

<QUOTE>I don't want Andy to stop writing topics. I want him to acknowledge that they're more personal, and more opinion, than he likes to believe.</QUOTE>
<b>*cough*</b>

<QUOTE>I don't want Andy to stop writing topics. I want him to acknowledge that they're more personal, and more opinion, than he likes to believe.</QUOTE>
Oh, okay. So it actually <i><b>is</b></i> a jihad now. Cool.

<QUOTE>-shai
(who actually did indeed get permission from Morn to post topics here, and then decided not to) </QUOTE>
Oh, come on. Show us how it is done.



<b>#44</b> "Andy" said...
<QUOTE>So that's that. There's no problem. We can all go home.</QUOTE>
I'm not defending you, Andy. But I've got my hat on now.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#47 by "Prodigy"
2000-06-22 12:56:48
prodigy@gamedata.com http://www.gamedata.com
Hmmm "over 100 computers" for 60 people, that doesn't seem excessive to me at all.
#48 by "Andy"
2000-06-22 13:19:28
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#45</b>, shaithis:
<QUOTE>
I think crash was suggesting that the statement itself was somewhat deceptive, not that you had intentionally made it so.
</QUOTE>
No, "deceptive" implies malicious intent. You can mislead people accidentally but you can't deceive them accidentally.
#49 by "Valeyard"
2000-06-22 16:16:04
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
<b>#44</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>I've not been dismissing <B>you</B> with silence, although it is true that there
are a few (less than half a dozen) people who I choose not to respond to
nowadays. </QUOTE>

I haven't been around much these days, as I'm purposely limiting my PC exposure to spare time at home only.  Did I make that list? :)

-Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "Andy"
2000-06-22 16:21:49
andy@planetcrap.com
#49 - Does this answer your question? ;-)
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