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Celebrate Relentlessness
June 21st 2000, 09:41 CEST by Seth

Maybe we should call it "Team Fortress 2002". Valve has decided to develop a new engine for Team Fortress 2.

According to this item at Blue's News anyway. PlayNow.com.au, an Australian gaming news site, recently discovered the information after an invite to Valve's offices in Kirkland, Washington.

Of course, this all comes as a limited shock to me, the game seems to be in an endless parade mingled with missed deadlines, older technology, and the hiring of Mike Dussault (lead coder for the LithTech engine). Is an engine change really what Valve needs to get a project with the magnitude of Team Fortress 2 out the door? My sources say yes. Rewritten renderer or not, there is only so far the Quake engine can be taken, and the epoch turned when the original Half-Life came out. Nothing significant has been done with the Quake engine since. With the article comes bit about the engine.

When I asked what it could do, the answer was something along the lines of 'A more appropriate question might be to ask what can't it do? The idea is to make sure it can do everything we need it to.'
I've always been indifferent about Team Fortress, I never really got into the mod for Quake and TFC was even less appealing and felt rather amateurish to me. But who knows, I wasn't anticipating Half-Life either...
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#1 by "Apache"
2000-06-21 09:43:59
this was actually uncovered over a month ago on some small TF site w/ a Q&A with Gabe Newell.
#2 by "Seth Krieg"
2000-06-21 09:46:00
seth@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Link please?
#3 by "Apache"
2000-06-21 09:49:05
fuck, I have no idea. I just know it's not new news. good thing I got martin to help out on UU since you spend all your time on 'crap ;)
#4 by "Apache"
2000-06-21 09:54:05
I think it was a german site if that helps...

the question was something along the lines of "Are you working on a new engine for TF2?" and Gabe replied: Yes.
#5 by "Joost Schuur"
2000-06-21 09:55:45
jschuur@gamespy.com http://www.gamespy.com
It was at

http://www.cold-ice.com/cgi-bin/news/viewnews.cgi?newsid958657574,73420,
#6 by "Apache"
2000-06-21 09:59:22
thanks joost!
#7 by "godZero"
2000-06-21 10:02:44
godzero@gmx.de
well they definitely need a new engine, but they could have released the game "as is". it doesn't look <s>that</s> bad. they reprogrammed the old q/q2 engine quite a bit, so they have high poly models and all. you've probably seen it.

i don't really dig this kind of game either, but for the people which do, it would have been nice with the old engine, too.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#8 by "Apache"
2000-06-21 10:09:25
that's true gZero, but TeamFortress 2 is going to be Valve's bread and butter for the next couple of years (three?) until Half-Life II is released. those guys are a pretty big payroll and have to keep Havas happy.

Companies that create their own 3D engines seem to do much better also for some reason...

(in most cases)
#9 by "godZero"
2000-06-21 10:20:42
godzero@gmx.de
<QUOTE>Companies that create their own 3D engines seem to do much better also for some reason...

(in most cases) </QUOTE>

they sell them and make a lot of money (which makes them happy) and they know their own engine inside out. it's very logical (assuming that the engine is good)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#10 by "Apache"
2000-06-21 10:30:08
Plus also they don't need to sell off their kidney to pay royalties to the engine designers.
#11 by "Jowr"
2000-06-21 10:33:21
jowr@sdf.lonestar.org
I highly doubt they are going to abandon what they have done with the halflife engine (formerly Quake 2). They have gone too far.

I think the post is being misunderstood, im not sure what it means either, though.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#12 by "godZero"
2000-06-21 10:37:34
godzero@gmx.de
maybe they will keep some of the code (like AI or skeletal anims or whatever), but i believe they will at least <s>heavily</s> modify the engine<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#13 by "godZero"
2000-06-21 10:56:28
godzero@gmx.de
just seen it over at VE: they said it would be a brand new engine, not a modified Q2 anymore<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#14 by "Apache"
2000-06-21 11:04:35
hmmm, what would be some cool names to call the engine?

-Half-Tech (hehe)
-Valve3D (yuck!)
-TeamEngine (cheese!)
-Fortress3D (has a nice ring)
#15 by "godZero"
2000-06-21 11:11:08
godzero@gmx.de
"WAR engine"? (seriously)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#16 by "godZero"
2000-06-21 11:12:43
godzero@gmx.de
DWG engine (<b>D</b>aikatana<b>W</b>orshiping<b>G</b>roup) hehe <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "Apache"
2000-06-21 11:17:58
nah, gotta use something that's related to Valve in the name or it's no fun :)
#18 by "None-1a"
2000-06-21 11:24:02
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#16</b> "godZero" wrote...
<QUOTE>DWG engine (DaikatanaWorshipingGroup) hehe </QUOTE>

Where the hell did that one come from.

O yeah and I think I've read some interviews with few people at value that clame the Q2 engine was so heavly modified little of the id code was acctauly being used at this point. Which this new development I'd take it that their only ripping out the remaining id code and going with new stuff in those sections (easy way to avoid the fees). Although SoF's graphic look would have worked really well in TF2 (and it's Quake 2 based).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#19 by "godZero"
2000-06-21 11:26:13
godzero@gmx.de
hmm, let' see...
Valve... Val... Valerie? Valerie's engine? runs hot!!!

tube-tech? (i like this one)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#20 by "Confused"
2000-06-21 11:26:17
I always thought that that valve just bought the rights to use the quake 1 engine and that they passed on q2? Maybe im just crazy.
#21 by "godZero"
2000-06-21 11:48:13
godzero@gmx.de
<b>#18</b> "blah" wrote...
<QUOTE>Where the hell did that one come from.

</QUOTE>

just kidding, dammit! :-)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#22 by "godZero"
2000-06-21 11:49:10
godzero@gmx.de
oh , forgot to enter the name. sorry<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#23 by "shaithis"
2000-06-21 11:53:13
chrisb@gamespy.com http://www.gamespy.com
First - CrapSpy is pretty fucking cool.

Second - let's take a look at who Valve has hired in the past year:

Gary McTaggart - engine programmer
Charlie Brown - engine programmer
Mike Dussault - engine programmer

Does this really come as much of a surprise? ;)

Oh, and TF for Quakeworld was the best mod ever made. TFC was not bad... but it was no TF.

-shai<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#24 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-06-21 11:58:23
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#23</b> "shaithis" wrote...
<QUOTE>Oh, and TF for Quakeworld was the best mod ever made. TFC was not bad... but it was no TF.</QUOTE>

TF rocked ! Strongest community of any game or mod (at least here in Australia). TFC was a pale imitation thou ... worse thing is I think TF2 will follow in it's tracks *sigh*<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#25 by "Andy"
2000-06-21 11:58:38
andy@planetcrap.com
Well Valve certainly don't do things by half. I thought TF2 was going to be released in a few months, now I guess it's going to be more like another year.


<b>#23</b>, shaithis:
<QUOTE>
Oh, and TF for Quakeworld was the best mod ever made.
</QUOTE>
There was a simple little Q1 mod with gib guns (rockets that stick in you and zap energy), mines and homing missiles. One-on-one with that mod was the most fun I've ever had in deathmatch.
#26 by "godZero"
2000-06-21 12:12:59
godzero@gmx.de
<QUOTE>
the most fun I've ever had in deathmatch.
</QUOTE>

DM Morpheus, instagib. anytime.
#27 by "None-1a"
2000-06-21 12:14:26
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#25</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>There was a simple little Q1 mod with gib guns (rockets that stick in you and zap energy), mines and homing missiles. One-on-one with that mod was the most fun I've ever had in deathmatch. </QUOTE>

Personaly I allways like AirQuake and Qrally (both extreamly interesting even if you didn't like them), same that neather one ever got fully finsihed. O man I wish there were some searvers for those still up. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#28 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-06-21 12:17:23
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#27</b> "None-1a" wrote...
<QUOTE>Personaly I allways like AirQuake and Qrally (both extreamly interesting even if
you didn't like them), same that neather one ever got fully finsihed. O man I
wish there were some searvers for those still up. </QUOTE>

There was servers for those ! damn I missed out. They were so groovy. Pre my obsession with TF I think I almost exclusivly played AirQuake, QRally, Headhunter Quake and SuperHeroes quake. They all had remakes and yet none of them has compared as of yet :(<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#29 by "godZero"
2000-06-21 12:21:19
godzero@gmx.de
yeah, AirQuake was damn cool<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "CirrusV"
2000-06-21 12:24:33
CirrusV@aol.com http://www.toolband.com
<a href="http://www.planetstarsiege.com/tcc/"></a>

check out this site it's really funny.



......no seriously check it out, fucken hilarious.


na it sucks<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "CirrusV"
2000-06-21 12:26:21
CirrusV@aol.com http://www.toolband.com
the best mod for quake is gonna be dragonballz<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#32 by "CirrusV"
2000-06-21 12:26:25
CirrusV@aol.com http://www.toolband.com
the best mod for quake is gonna be dragonballz<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#33 by "CirrusV"
2000-06-21 12:26:26
CirrusV@aol.com http://www.toolband.com
the best mod for quake is gonna be dragonballz<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#34 by "CirrusV"
2000-06-21 12:26:28
CirrusV@aol.com http://www.toolband.com
the best mod for quake is gonna be dragonballz<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#35 by "deadlock"
2000-06-21 12:29:37
deadlock@eircom.net
I'm not really surprised that Valve are pushing back the release of TF2 again, but I am surprised at how much and the extent of the cause for this new schedule. If TF2 is to be their bread and butter for the three years it will take to create HalfLife 2, what will be their bread and butter for the 1,2,3 (?) years that it will take to research and develop a new engine and convert the current content to be usable by it (or create entirely new content) ?

What are Valve going to do in the meantime ? Half-Life is almost two years old is not selling in nearly the same quantities that it had been when first released (duh). Valve have no other product and its' not like they can make money from licensing really; whereas id or (shudder) monolith can make money from licensing the Quake 3/LithTech engines and thereby cover themselves for the three years it takes to create a whole new product. It'd be interesting to know how Valve are going to cover themselves for the next couple of years.

Assuming that Valve can hold off the release of TF2 for another year or two, they could find that the market has become more receptive to this kind of product; more and more people are joining the LPB brigade that you will have to a member of (even now) to enjoy TF2.

deadlock
#36 by "Serpwidgets"
2000-06-21 12:35:28
serpwidgets@hotmail.com http://people.ce.mediaone.net/serpwidgets/index.ht
<b>#25</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>the most fun I've ever had in deathmatch.
</QUOTE>
1-on-1 instagib+jumpmatch in Deck16][... on a LAN, of course. :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#37 by "shaithis"
2000-06-21 12:38:46
chrisb@gamespy.com http://www.gamespy.com
<b>#35</b> "deadlock" wrote...
<QUOTE>Assuming that Valve can hold off the release of TF2 for another year or two,
they could find that the market has become more receptive to this kind of
product; more and more people are joining the LPB brigade that you will have to
a member of (even now) to enjoy TF2. </QUOTE>

Shouldn't take two years... Between the three engine programmers they hired, and the couple they already have, I would think they could come up with a proprietary engine that's superior to the Half-Life engine fairly rapidly. Say... four months (Gresko supposedly whipped out Nihilistic's Vampire engine in two).

I've seen what Gary and Charlie can do in a few months... did textures for their demo stuff, in fact. It was very pretty, very solid work. They've already been there for over six months, and Dussalt's been there for several as well.

And throughout all of this... most of the content doesn't have to be scrapped. Maps can still be worked on, models made, weapons balanced, etc, using the current engine.

-shai

(but... is the best mod for quake going to be dragonballz?)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#38 by "shaithis"
2000-06-21 12:42:57
chrisb@gamespy.com http://www.gamespy.com
<b>#25</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>There was a simple little Q1 mod with gib guns (rockets that stick in you and
zap energy), mines and homing missiles. One-on-one with that mod was the most
fun I've ever had in deathmatch.
</QUOTE>

Hmm... I may have played that. My friends and I downloaded one with a whole ton of stuff. Like 25 types of grenades, eight types of rockets (some homing, including a homing "nuke" that wiped out about 1/3rd of the level... and was hilarious to use in DM), and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Those were fun little mods, and we had a hell of a good time playing them, but nothing can compare to the beauty of a fully-organized clan-on-clan TF match... especially when you're playing with guys as good as Wolvesmoon, Erinyes, Iron Curtain, and the like. That was the reason I played TF, and TF only (and I mean that... no other form of quake, and no other game whatsoever), for over nine months. :)

-shai
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#39 by "Evil"
2000-06-21 13:03:39
40th@usa.net
Barnie²-Engine  anyone?
#40 by "Joost Schuur"
2000-06-21 13:33:58
jschuur@gamespy.com http://www.gamespy.com
<b>#35</b> "deadlock" wrote...

<quote>
Valve have no other product and its' not like they can make money from licensing really.
</quote>
It's my understanding that another product in the Sierra lineup (that's been announced already even) is already using TF2 tech. They just haven't officially said that yet.
#41 by "Desiato"
2000-06-21 14:23:45
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com
They probably copied the engine from WOT -- and the map too..

(oops wrong thread hype-meme)

Hah.

Desiato
#42 by "Diseased"
2000-06-21 14:53:28
diseasedanimal@yahoo.com http://www.notcoolenoughtohavea.com
Man speaking of nifty engines I would absolutely loved to have seen the Amengine in action.  Yeah, I only based my impressions off the screenshots of the game but it looked great, and I have a lot of respect for those Cavedoggies' engine skillz (Total A).

The saddest thing is a Cavedoggie told me that the music for the game was amazing-- even superceding TA's incredible soundtrack.  What an awful waste.  :(
#43 by "Wrynn"
2000-06-21 15:16:15
webmaster@quake3mods.net http://www.quake3mods.net
Speaking of shit being delayed, i have lost all interest in halo and am looking forward to tribes2.  bungie can be eaten by undead lizard warriors for all i care.
#44 by "shaithis"
2000-06-21 15:22:08
chrisb@gamespy.com http://www.gamespy.com
<B>#41</B>, Desatio -

I'm pretty certain you're capable of posting something more worthwhile than a joke about a (perfectly valid) previous thread.

<B>#42</B>, Diseased -

I saw the Amen engine at E3 '99. It was pretty amazing. The scripted sequence where the subway car goes out of control and destroys this whole big section of New York's underground was very cool.

-shai
#45 by "asspennies"
2000-06-21 15:27:23
asspennies@coredump.org http://www.coredump.org
<b>#35</b> "deadlock" wrote...
<QUOTE>What are Valve going to do in the meantime ? Half-Life is almost two years old is not selling in nearly the same quantities that it had been when first released (duh). Valve have no other product and its' not like they can make money from licensing really; </QUOTE>

As I understand it, Valve is still selling HL with impunity, thanks to the various mods (most importantly, of course, is Counter-Strike.), so much so that they're planning on releasing a MOD pack later this year, and supporting the development of a few mods with grants (as well as financially backing their most important HL-related asset, the Counter-Strike team.)

And they're still developing a few things, including continuing to upgrade TFC and making a third-person perspective mod of their own for HL.  Valve isn't slowing down in the least.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#46 by "stitch"
2000-06-21 15:31:35
nick@barrysworld.com
I bet they will announce in the next few days that they've swapped over to the serious sam engine! ;O
#47 by "Andy"
2000-06-21 15:56:28
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#45</b>, asspennies:
<QUOTE>
As I understand it, Valve is still selling HL with <b>impunity</b>
</QUOTE>
Cool word in se7en but not appropriate here. ;-)
#48 by "Diseased"
2000-06-21 15:59:40
diseasedanimal@yahoo.com http://www.notcoolenoughtohavea.com
Man it is depressing to think of what a waste of a potentially amazing game Amen was.  Rarely have I seen such promise in a FPS.  Sigh.
#49 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-06-21 16:03:49
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#45</b> "asspennies" wrote...
<QUOTE>
As I understand it, Valve is still selling HL with impunity, thanks to the various mods (most importantly, of course, is Counter-Strike.), so much so that they're planning on releasing a MOD pack later this year, and supporting the development of a few mods with grants (as well as financially backing their most important HL-related asset, the Counter-Strike team.)

And they're still developing a few things, including continuing to upgrade TFC and making a third-person perspective mod of their own for HL. Valve isn't slowing down in the least.</QUOTE>

I figured they would rely on CS, mods, etc.  If the net code for TF2 is the same as what CS is using now, they have a lot of work to do anyway (shudder).  I will not buy a game that reduces my cable modem to a 14.4 at random.
They've changed so much and taken so long, I wonder what support they will have left from the TF community?  I mean TF2 was originally going to be for the Q2 engine (reportedly).  I wouldn't expect to see it any time soon.  Maybe a few years down the road.  

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "asspennies"
2000-06-21 16:19:17
asspennies@coredump.org http://www.coredump.org
<b>#47</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>

<B>#45</B>, asspennies:

<quote>
<B>impunity</B>
</quote>
Cool word in se7en but not appropriate here. ;-)
</QUOTE>

impunity n : exemption from punishment or loss

Yes, I must agree, I made a boo-boo.

My English Teacher would kill me :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
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