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T O P I C
Mainstream Games?
December 18th 2002, 04:29 CET by Fallon

In 2001, the same amount of $US was spent watching movies at the theatre as on videogames - very close to a huge $7 billion. For the last three years, gaming sales have increased by 20%, and shows few signs of stopping, what with  consoles selling more and more and movies of games - Tomb Raider, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil - firmly entrenching gaming characters and concepts in the minds of the public.

However the Internet is dominated with relatively small fanboy sites; what's the gaming equivalent of IMDB? Developers are still seen, mostly, as accessible - and, compared to the amount of personel involved in making a movie, seem to be staffed by relatively small groups, in a relatively small business. Who's the equivalent of Speilberg - and what company is comparable to, say, Universal?

Of course, with more customers than ever buying games, it's clear that the industry has a good chance of carrying on with its expansion. But for how long, before the bottom falls out?

Games get small columns for reviews in papers; movies sometimes get two-page spreads. Put simply: are games going to become more mainstream, or is the videogame industry's public interest peaking already?
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#1 by Matthew Gallant
2002-12-18 04:34:28
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
I can tell you that the company most comparable to Universal is not Universal Interactive. Man.

"Is the internet making people less intelligent?"
"You mean like how video cameras cause thrown objects to hit men in the crotch?"
#2 by Ng Yo
2002-12-18 05:11:58
2nd in command.....

all that will happen in the next 10-15 years... yes that long..

Ng out.....
#3 by Desiato
2002-12-18 05:17:50
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
<Disco Stu>
"Did you know, that disco record sales in 1979 were up over 300%? If these trends continue...Eaayyyy!"
</Disco Stu>

Just let me kill things online, that is all I ask.
#4 by HiredGoons
2002-12-18 05:18:57
Games (and gamers) still have a considerable "acceptability" gap to cross.  The gap is smaller than it was 20 years ago, and is shrinking, but it's still there.

It's mainly shrinking by virtue of attrition.  The generation exposed to videogames at a young age (born 1965ish and after) continues to play them.  

The older generations largely had no interest in them, then, and don't have much interest in them now.  There are a few rare exceptions.  

Eventually, I think we will have 60, 70, and 80 year old gamers.  

If you agree with the premise that people tend to stick with the hobbies that they pick up in their teenage and college years, then that isn't very surprising.

As far as who is the video game Spielberg...it'd have to be the creator of Mario.  Whose name escapes me at the moment.
#5 by lwf
2002-12-18 05:25:52
Miyamoto!

Open 'em wide
#6 by yotsuya
2002-12-18 05:50:32
I have to say that I have always considered video gaming mainstream, but then again, I fit into #4 's demographics.

Lust can never be satisfied with a pink highlighter
#7 by m0nty
2002-12-18 06:20:49
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
When gaming produces a Cecil B. De Mille, then it's mainstream. Oh wait, gaming has Scott B. De Miller.
#8 by JP
2002-12-18 06:27:07
christ, don't give him so much credit.
#9 by ProStyle
2002-12-18 06:32:13
http://prostyle.deviantart.com
Games get small columns for reviews in papers; movies sometimes get two-page spreads. Put simply: are games going to become more mainstream, or is the videogame industry's public interest peaking already?


I am personally of the opinion that all possibilities of an entertainment presentation be laid out in front of the recipient and they should have to pick and choose and dig and be involved to fully enjoy it. I also beleive that entertainment that requires a users involvement and/or creative thought processing combined with some level of motor skill and hand eye coordination has the potential to be far superior in gratification and immersement levels than plopping people down in front of a 20' 8' screen and having them sit there doing nothing but staring ahead at something for 90+ minutes. In the end what I imagine this will mean is sprawling games and a convergence of both forms of media to accomodate the perfection and amount of detailwork that would be expected of these projects. For single player episodic gaming it'd be staggering splitting up a story into cohesive sections with the right scripting and enough opportunities everywhere for the player to explore; not to mention inventing a clever game mechanic that is involving and challenging yet rewarding to diverse tactics and some level of skill. I think it's quite realistic though and I can imagine and actually anticipate the day where I won't have to sit through a 3 hour epic film that's condensed from an 800+ page novel; but instead I can go home and play/watch my way through it with a great sense of character identification and involvement at the same time. I'd imagine role playing would take off in a gigantic way and customized avatars would be all the rage though... there have been some petty attempts at these kinds of things in the past but I can see it being a fairly commonplace feature in the future. So instead of being "Gordon Freeman" in Half Life you'd just be introduced to your occupation as a scientist and maybe when you write your name on the "Hello My name is" sticker on the first day of work they'd have dynamic decals that'd read that information and instead of having "Die Freeman" sprayed on the levels near the end it'd read the data you input instead. I think little things like that will really add up in the end to create these titles but they'll be so broad... I can barely think of anything else right now.

I'm like a quote out of context...
#10 by Oneiros
2002-12-18 07:36:40
oneiros42@hotmail.com
Do we really want the game industry to get that big?  Think about it, a few large production companies, shoveling any crap out the door to make a quick buc...oh wait:)

Sure, gaming will keep growing. <Insert knowledgable comment about the growing pains of the Film Industry here>.  As long as there's money to be made, somebody's gotta make it.

I'd like for it to be as easy to rent a game as it is movie (I'm thinking availability here). If I'm not willing to pay $7.50 for some crap movie, I'm not about to plunk down $50 for some crap game.

Next time, I'll read the topic and form a coherent post. Or not.
#11 by Your Friend
2002-12-18 08:13:53
Miyamoto hovers miles above every other game designer on earth, pissing down from a great height.  Except he probably doesn't piss on people because he seems pretty normal & humble.  But then he's Japanese, so you never know.

About halfway up to Miyamoto you have Will Wright.  

Everybody else is far below in the ghetto where they belong.   You've got some good people down there...  your Warren Spectors and such, and they produce great games sometimes, but they will never rise too much above the riff raff.

2000/XP is better than Win9x in every way.
#12 by Russ
2002-12-18 08:57:02
I would put Sid Meier above Will Wright. Miyamoto has been very successful, but I just haven't played his games that much. They're pretty much marketed toward kids, right? Maybe Uncle Jeet can explain why Mario is so great. Also, wouldn't EA be the Universal of gaming?

I think what the game industry is missing that would make it more widely accepted is celebrities. When Gabe Newell, Will Wright, or Peter Molyneux are getting interviewed on The Tonight Show or getting trashed in The National Enquirer is when gaming will have arrived. We still seem to be far from this point.

You're a bit late to the party. We gave up on that discussion days ago. It was too on-topic.--Ergo
#13 by Your Friend
2002-12-18 09:06:54
Miyamoto's games aren't for kids so much as they are for people who just like really great games.  Sid is pretty decent, but unlike Wright and Miyamoto he has been involved in a few real turkeys in addition to his great games.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for game developers on the talk shows, not because gaming is less mainstream (though it still is), but just because they don't fit the mold.  Note that you very rarely see filmmakers OTHER than actors on these shows.  Writers? Virtually never.  Directors? Once in a very great while, but very unusual...  There is no real equivilent to actors in game development so...LOSE.

2000/XP is better than Win9x in every way.
#14 by Squeaky
2002-12-18 09:09:13
You gotta love mall security gaurds. A requirement for the job must be to be as stupid as possible.

My store is open until 11:00pm until December 23rd. But the rest of the mall closes at 10:00pm. So what does the security gaurd do? He locks the fucking doors and wont let customers or even our night crew in.

The icing on the cake is that our doors are wide open and there are still a few customers in the store (from 9:30 or so), and there is a big neon OPEN sign glowing at the entrance to the mall.

Fucking idiot.

My manager is going to have fun chewing out mall management tomorrow. I should be a blast to watch.

morn is our weekly special at an incredibly low price of $7
Pitiful DVD Collection
#15 by Squeaky
2002-12-18 09:11:02
#13:
Voice actors?

How about a 3D animated version of Duke Nukem superimposed on Letterman? I think I recall something like that being done before on some late night show.

morn is our weekly special at an incredibly low price of $7
Pitiful DVD Collection
#16 by lwf
2002-12-18 09:24:02
I wonder if Miyamoto is into scatfuckery and raccoon rape..

Open 'em wide
#17 by Russ
2002-12-18 09:32:17
If he is, you still won't read about it in the Enquirer. Nobody cares.

Morality is the theory that every human act must be either right or wrong, and that 99% of them are wrong.
#18 by Warren Marshall
2002-12-18 09:50:45
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Miyamoto's games aren't for kids so much as they are for people who just like really great games.

Miyamoto is great, but I wouldn't say he's as far above everyone as else as you seem to think.  He's good at taking a handful of simple gameplay concepts and applying them to a larger game.  The resulting gameplay mechanics are solid and the games are fun to play.

However, IMO, he is behind other designers (like Warren Specter) when it comes to things like story and interactivity.  Similarily, in terms of presentation of an environment/world, you can't really compare Zelda or Mario to something like Metal Gear Solid 2.

Put on your two step shoes, lose the blues and dance like it's year zero.
#19 by Petri Jarvilehto
2002-12-18 10:48:44
petri@remedy.fi http://www.remedy.fi
I definitely think that games have crossed over to mainstream. There's been a massive shift in attitudes in the past years. When I started working with games back in '95, games were solely something that nerds would play with their 386's, and talking about games practically meant a social suicide if you were over 18 years. Nowadays it's an everyday situation to hear two guys talking over a pint of Guinness about how they played NHL2k2 for the weekend.

The sales numbers back this up as well. In '95 selling over 300-500k was considered a blockbuster. Nowadays you need to sell past 1 mil to reach the same status.

IMO the shift to mainstream also means that the gap between triple-A and a normal titles will keep getting bigger and bigger.

Here's a snippet from our internal e-mail discussion on future trends:

o Branding

Strong brands will become more and more important in the future. Basically you can think of the mainstream shopper as a guy standing in a supermarket looking at rows and rows of cereals. He'll look at all the variety and then select the one that he's knows has been good earlier, or even pick the box based on faint recollection "I think I tried this before and it didn't suck". The competition in games market is becoming so intense that even if you have something original, there's probably 5 more games on the shelf that are very close to the same compelling offer that you're pitching. A strong familiar brand can help you cross the chasm from the shelf to the sale. This is why I think that EA Sports and Rockstar will continue to reap even bigger success in the future, and also a reason why I wouldn't discount the importance of licenses. Most publisher brands are totally unfocused, so even some attempt of focus will trump all other publisher brands. Developer brands are a lot stronger than publisher brands, but unfortunately we developers are only able to introduce a product once in 3-4 years => thus it's very hard to keep the brand visible in the consumer minds.

o Long term life cycles of game brands becomes even more important

The publishers are spending millions and millions on marketing and building the brands. After this investment they really don't want to start from a scratch, but would rather want to use the existing goodwill to maximum effect. The developers need to take "succession" into account right at the start. Building a single one-off game is not as enticing to publishers any more, you have to show that there's a potential for multiple sequels in the same universe.

o Consolidation

Bigger publishers are buying out smaller ones (or then the small ones wither and die). In the future there will be even fewer publishers, they want to own their own IP:s. The only way to success is for the independent developer's to keep a hold of their IP's. This means having cash in the bank => until you can sell the IP and cash out.

o Independent developers will continue to go under

In the future the independent developers will primarily be two forms: either they have a cost advantages (east Europe & some parts of Asia) or have proven hit potential. The middle ground will feel the squeeze and will have a hard time staying in business. The only way to secure your future is to make games that sell (well, duh :-). If your game sells more than a million units you should have the proven hit potential and will continue getting deals.

o Hit and Miss will be further accentuated

According to a recent UK study, already 3% of the games bring in over 50% of the revenue. This will just keep getting worse with fewer titles will bring in more money than ever before. The only way to hit the top 3% is by paying attention to brand, focus, polish & hook - not "me too" games (just creating 'good' games won't be sufficient anymore).

o The market will keep growing

At least for the next couple of years (3-5?) the market will keep growing madly as installed bases grow, hitting the right platform at the right time becomes even more critical for success. Right now it's clear that you want to hit PS2 platform at all costs, in the future the best way to cover your behind is to be independent from any single platform. Ability to hit multiple platforms (with outside help) will be needed. In all probability the next console cycle will draw even bigger marketing money into the picture and thus sustain the industry growth.

The way I see this, is that we're no longer competiting against other games. IMO we're now fighting on the time/money share against DVD's, movies, books and television.

Thoughts?
#20 by Ashiran
2002-12-18 10:59:29
As a hardcore gamer I don't care for mainstream games. And because mainstream is where the money is there will be less games that appeal to the hardcore gamer. So we will become extinct!

The Asian goat eats your anime.
#21 by "Wayne Hall"
2002-12-18 11:04:56
Well, we have an equivilant to Episode 1 atleast, although it's nothing to be proud of... (If you have no clue what i'm talking about, fabio developed it, and it starts with a D)
#22 by DeeC
2002-12-18 11:07:47
I think there is a change in progress when it comes to how much space videogames get in papers, magazines and so on. It seems like that for each year that pass they get more and more space and in holiday seasons like Christmas there are plenty of reviews and guides in common newspapers.

That does not mean that the reviewers in these medias are any good though. Most of them actually suck so much that if I would have to use one word to describe these people, it would be such a naughty word that the children reading this would cry in pure fright(that's for you m0nty), so I'll refrain from using it here.

My point is basically that even if videogames more than ever get a fair amount of attention in media, the so called "experts" that write about them probably began playing games two years ago or something. I think those of us who basically have played videogames since the beginning, don't have anything to gain by reading these mindless and stupid "this game is very fun because you drive through a city and kill innocent people with chainsaws and bla bla bla bla." type of reviews...

Let us just enjoy the world of gaming as it is, without worrying about if the neighbours like the games we play. "Mainstream" or not, if its good I'll play it. End of story.

"No man should have to be." - Ping Wo Me
#23 by KookieMonsta
2002-12-18 11:18:24
Children read the PlanetCrap?
#24 by DeeC
2002-12-18 11:21:15
Sure hope not

"No man should have to be." - Ping Wo Me
#25 by LesJarvis
2002-12-18 12:49:21
Warren wrote:

Similarily, in terms of presentation of an environment/world, you can't really compare Zelda or Mario to something like Metal Gear Solid 2.


Agreed.  It reveals how incredibly overwrought MGS2 is.

I'm pretty much with YF, in that I consider Miyamato to be miles ahead of the competition.  To me he just makes the best games on the planet.  I think the things that people like Warren Spector and Hideo Kojima are trying to do are admirable, but to me their reach is clearly exceeding, and in some cases overwhelming, their grasp.  I think it's important that there are people trying to push the limits and see what games can become, and I applaud their attempts, but at this point they aren't producing anything nearly as playable as the latest Zelda game.

"The internet has gone all fiddle faddle foo."
-lwf
#26 by Bezzy
2002-12-18 13:37:26
painberry@hotmail.com http://www.antifactory.org
Kojima's a knuckle fuck. Someone just give him a film deal already. You know that's all he's really interested in.

My only problem with Bezzy is, truly and honestly, about one third of his longer, passionate posts make no sense to me.  I don't necessarily agree or disagree, I just literally can't parse them.  - Hugin
#27 by Eric T. Cheng
2002-12-18 14:29:31
erictcheng@hotmail.com
However, IMO, he is behind other designers (like Warren Specter) when it comes to things like story and interactivity.  Similarily, in terms of presentation of an environment/world, you can't really compare Zelda or Mario to something like Metal Gear Solid 2.


Ugh! I would NEVER compared Zelda or Mario to that FMV Metal Gear Solid 2. It seems to me whenever a Japanese console game designer tries to make a game with a plot/story we get a melodramatic doesn't-make-sense-in-English FMV Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within.

Kilt Wearing Pixel Pushing Monkey Boy
IMDB Entry
DVD Collection
#28 by Eric T. Cheng
2002-12-18 14:35:42
erictcheng@hotmail.com
Kojima's a knuckle fuck. Someone just give him a film deal already. You know that's all he's really interested in.


A game designer buddy told me that game designers who make games more like movies (with very little gameplay) have the "Frustrated Director Syndrome" where they want to make Hollywood movies but can't even land music video jobs.

Kilt Wearing Pixel Pushing Monkey Boy
IMDB Entry
DVD Collection
#29 by LPMiller
2002-12-18 14:37:56
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
what the hell is a knuckle fuck?

I believe I can fly......urk.
#30 by Eric T. Cheng
2002-12-18 14:42:56
erictcheng@hotmail.com
It what's after four fingers and the thumb...

Kilt Wearing Pixel Pushing Monkey Boy
IMDB Entry
DVD Collection
#31 by Duality
2002-12-18 15:02:42
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
I would consider Miyamoto the video game equivalent to Spielberg simply because ...

o He's been doing this for so long -- 21 years since Nintendo created Donkey Kong.  

o He's stuck with what he does that entire time.  The games he makes, while appear to be marketed toward children, are really little more than child-friendly.  Though to be honest, I can't imagine any kid having the patience to deal with the Mario64/Sunshine CrappyCam.  

o He's failed to make a game that is just really unsuccessful.  And most often the only naysayers he has are the people who mistake Nintendo's products as "kiddie games".

Ashiran: What makes you think mainstream and hardcore are two mutually exclusive concepts?
#32 by Ashiran
2002-12-18 15:27:12
Not entirely mutally exclusive but the overlap between the two is quite small.

The Asian goat eats your anime.
#33 by Sgt Hulka
2002-12-18 15:32:03
Petri Strong brands will become more and more important in the future.


Thanks for posting that info, good stuff.  I agree, but branding doesn't necessarily mean a game title/character.  Team Evolve has become a brand in itself since we consistantly provide solid, fun, and professional game experiences for little to NO MONEY DOWN!.  If it's got a TE Spermie on the label, you know it's good. :)

Deec "I think there is a change in progress when it comes to how much space videogames get in papers, magazines and so on. It seems like that for each year that pass they get more and more space and in holiday seasons like Christmas there are plenty of reviews and guides in common newspapers.


Yes, I have seen this in my local newspapers.  Although, the issue with the Indianapolis Star is the game is usually poorly reviewed by someone who probably doesn't play games, probably wears a helmet all day, is mesmerized by shiny objects, and married thier brother/sister.

Miyamoto


The man is a gaming genius.  I love his work.  He makes fun games.  That's what's going to be missing, IMHO, in the future.  As we pump out more titles each year, I fear, and have seen proof, that we'll put out more quickly written/buggy clones of existing games.  In fact, as profits decrease, we'll see more development shipped off to India, or some other lower paying country in order to compete.  

As far as the connection between making games and making films, there are many similarities that I've encountered in the two.  Actually, it would make a pretty interesting article. Hrmm....

Got DOOMED? - Videogames do bad things to good people
#34 by CheesyPoof
2002-12-18 15:38:32
Games are too expensive to be as mainstream as movies.  While gaming revenue may be the same as movie revenue now, the audience size is far, far in favor of the movie industry.  A game costs $50, how many movies can I see for that amount?  Lets also be honest about the price, how many games cost more to produce than your average movie?  My guess is not may, if there are any at all.  Reduce the price in games and you will increase your audience, get out of the ghetto and have the ability to increase your overall revenue.  Good luck finding a publisher to buy into that though.
#35 by Scott Miller
2002-12-18 15:44:03
scottmi11er@hotmail.com
The Game industry is still miles away from the movie industry in overall popularity.

o  If you remove the console hardware sales (including the GBA) from the much touted game industry revenues, they drop by well over half.

o  Remember that going to see a movie costs about one-fifth of what it costs to buy a game, so it takes a *lot* more movie-goers to achieve the overall "box office receipts," that the game industry is so fond of comparing itself to.

o  The game industry uses every source possible in its revenue figure.  But the movie industry figure (box office receipts) that's used as a comparison doesn't include revenues from pay-per-view, VHS & DVD sales, nor cable & TV revenues.  And if the movie wanted to do an apples-to-apples comparison, they could also include VCR and DVD player sales -- which are equivalent to the game industry's home playing devices.

o  The popularity of the game industry will *never* come close to the movie industry until the game industry can develop true media celebrities, like the movie industry has in abundance.  Without these stars we wouldn't have dozens of interview, talk and gossip magazines, or shows like Entertainment Tonight.  People are attracted to people.  The game industry has no people that are on the screen.  (Game characters hardly count, they have no life to gossip about, or developer crushes on.  And game designers are like movie directors -- how many movie directors can the average person name...maybe 5 or 6.)

The game industry will always be a tick on the ass of the movie industry, in terms of overall popularity and mass media attention.

"One of the most difficult tasks people can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games..." -- C.G. Jung
#36 by Sgt Hulka
2002-12-18 15:48:03
The popularity of the game industry will *never* come close to the movie industry until the game industry can develop true media celebrities, like the movie industry has in abundance.


Well, thank goodness someone is out there trying to do something about that with little to no support from the gaming community.

Got DOOMED? - Videogames do bad things to good people
#37 by Gunp01nt
2002-12-18 16:10:32
supersimon33@hotmail.com
does anybody else get the feeling Hulka took way too much shameless-self-promotion xtreme pills?

Has anyone mentioned the Nazis yet?  
Scratch that: has anyone not mentioned the Nazis yet?
-M0nty
#38 by HiredGoons
2002-12-18 16:14:41
Petri

When I started working with games back in '95, games were solely something that nerds would play with their 386's, and talking about games practically meant a social suicide if you were over 18 years. Nowadays it's an everyday situation to hear two guys talking over a pint of Guinness about how they played NHL2k2 for the weekend.


Everyday situation?
#39 by Sgt Hulka
2002-12-18 16:43:26
does anybody else get the feeling Hulka took way too much shameless-self-promotion xtreme pills?


Heh.. It has been extreme lately. Must be the holiday stress and my hatred for the banjo picking in the Take it Easy song by the Eagles.  

Plus, not only was I was beaten as a child, but as a pre-teen, teen, young adult and adult.  Many times sessiona were set up to beat me where people had to take numbers and wait their turn. Surprisingly, Bailey has never shown up, unless he was in costume.  

I just found out my Saturday tickets for LOTR:TTT have 12/20/02 2:00pm printed on them. That's FRIDAY! Argh.. I can't go on Friday.  This theater is 20 miles away from here too. So now I have to contemplate trying to use the tickets on Saturday anyway and risk getting into an argument over the date of the tickets, or driving up there and exchanging them.  

This is insane.  I bought these tickets a few days ago, face to face with the ticket seller.  I CLEARLY said Saturday, and Saturday sounds nothing like Friday (except for the day part).. How could she F this up?  Doesn't matter.  She did, and now she'll pay!

Got DOOMED? - Videogames do bad things to good people
#40 by None-1a
2002-12-18 16:52:42
My point is basically that even if videogames more than ever get a fair amount of attention in media, the so called "experts" that write about them probably began playing games two years ago or something.


I wouldn't call what they write reviews, more like game synopsis. It's very rare that one makes a real judgment call on the game in anyway, rather it's just what you do in the game. Interesting when ever the subject of bad reviews comes up this sort of just the facts 'review' is what people say they want anyway.
#41 by Sgt Hulka
2002-12-18 16:59:53
I've said too much, I haven't said enough.  

I'm pulling a Bilbo Baggins and disappearing.

..goodbye




[HULKA HAS LEFT THE BUILDING]

Got DOOMED? - Videogames do bad things to good people
#42 by Caryn
2002-12-18 17:18:14
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
Scott Miller:

The game industry uses every source possible in its revenue figure.  But the movie industry figure (box office receipts) that's used as a comparison doesn't include revenues from pay-per-view, VHS & DVD sales, nor cable & TV revenues.  And if the movie wanted to do an apples-to-apples comparison, they could also include VCR and DVD player sales -- which are equivalent to the game industry's home playing devices.


This doesn't seem like it would be an apples-to-apples comparison. VHS/DVD sales are the same title released in a different format after the movie release. Console games, for the most part (i.e., if they're not ports of PC titles) are completely different titles. Movie goers for the most part will buy the same movies later that they've seen in the theatre. Gamers, on the other hand, seem to be truly split into the PC and console camps (although I think that's been converging since the release big three consoles). Few people who buy console games buy PC games and vice versa -- at least, that's my guess (I have no numbers on that). It seems to me like the ONLY way you can get an accurate number is to actually compare sales of BOTH PC and console games to movie box office sales. No?

"Bailey: Cuba has great rum and even better cigars.  Their current dictator's health is failing and he's looking for a successor. All of a sudden you declare an interest in Cuba. You're fooling nobody." - HiredGoons
#43 by Petri Jarvilehto
2002-12-18 17:28:12
petri@remedy.fi http://www.remedy.fi
It seems to me like the ONLY way you can get an accurate number is to actually compare sales of BOTH PC and console games to movie box office sales. No?


Umm... If you're talking about "Movie industry" vs. "Gaming Industry" it would sound pretty logical to me to include all of the different formats of the movies (box office, DVD, VHS) since all of the gaming formats are also lumped under gaming industry (and since console hardware is also included within the gaming industry figures, you should probably include all of the revenue from DVD and VHS players as well).

On the other hand, I think that already the Gaming is Bigger than Box Office Sales, is a great thing and certainly gives an impression on how big the industry has grown. Now all we need to do is to keep growing 20% a year for the next 10 years and we'll be on par with all of this movie stuff O:-)
#44 by Caryn
2002-12-18 17:34:02
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
Petri, that was going to be my follow up post after I'd put more thought into it. Scott suggested removing console sales from the game industry figures. Instead, it seems more logical to me to include them but include VHS/DVD sales in the movie industry numbers. Although that's still an apples-to-oranges comparison because VHS/DVD sales don't seem comparable to console title sales to me.

"Bailey: Cuba has great rum and even better cigars.  Their current dictator's health is failing and he's looking for a successor. All of a sudden you declare an interest in Cuba. You're fooling nobody." - HiredGoons
#45 by Petri Jarvilehto
2002-12-18 17:47:38
petri@remedy.fi http://www.remedy.fi
Although that's still an apples-to-oranges comparison because VHS/DVD sales don't seem comparable to console title sales to me.


So, can we now conclude that to actually make the comparison relevant, you should only compare the sales of the titles themselves ie. PC+Console software vs. Box Office+DVD+VHS titles? (and then gaming is getting trumped bigtime).

You wrote:
Movie goers for the most part will buy the same movies later that they've seen in the theatre.


Why do you think this makes a difference? If people end up putting money on the table to get the same product in different formats it means that they're spending more money on the movie industry and therefore the size of the movie industry gets bigger.
#46 by Your Friend
2002-12-18 17:49:10
Scott was suggesting removing the sale of the CONSOLES themselves, if I read correctly, not console games.  For example: include the sale of Halo in the industry revenues, but don't include the sale of the XBOX since the movie industry doesn't include the sale of DVD/VHS players because they are often made by third parties, not related to the movie studios (though there are some overlaps, like Sony).

And he's completely right.  In fact that must have been the first Scott Miller post where I 100% agreed with everything he wrote.

2000/XP is better than Win9x in every way.
#47 by Phayyde
2002-12-18 17:53:33
I liked when Petri said this:

The way I see this, is that we're no longer competiting against other games. IMO we're now fighting on the time/money share against DVD's, movies, books and television.

That's right on.  I'd add that videogaming will never fairly compete with these other mediums until they stop selling to kids and start selling to people.

Mention the term 'videogame' to anyone and they think you are talking about products for kids.  The question is, what can video game companies do today to correct that image and enable full competition with the established entertainment mediums in the future?

Beat to fit, paint to match.
#48 by Caryn
2002-12-18 17:54:21
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
Petri:

Why do you think this makes a difference? If people end up putting money on the table to get the same product in different formats it means that they're spending more money on the movie industry and therefore the size of the movie industry gets bigger.


Actually, YF is right about what Scott said -- I misread his post and interpreted it as saying that since the movie industry doesn't include DVD/cable/etc. sales, you shouldn't include console titles in the same numbers, which is ridiculous. He said hardware and I somehow skipped over that. Sorry, false alarm...I posted before the first cup of coffee.

"Bailey: Cuba has great rum and even better cigars.  Their current dictator's health is failing and he's looking for a successor. All of a sudden you declare an interest in Cuba. You're fooling nobody." - HiredGoons
#49 by Caryn
2002-12-18 17:57:25
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
Petri:

Why do you think this makes a difference? If people end up putting money on the table to get the same product in different formats it means that they're spending more money on the movie industry and therefore the size of the movie industry gets bigger.


I think my muddled point was that there really is no good straight comparison if you were to factor in DVD sales as well. How many people buy a game for the PC and then buy its port for a console? Almost zero, I would guess. To me that's somewhat equivalent to going to see a movie and then buying it on DVD later.

I'm not really making any good points here, I think I need to clear the morning fog a bit more before posting. :)

"Bailey: Cuba has great rum and even better cigars.  Their current dictator's health is failing and he's looking for a successor. All of a sudden you declare an interest in Cuba. You're fooling nobody." - HiredGoons
#50 by Petri Jarvilehto
2002-12-18 17:58:02
petri@remedy.fi http://www.remedy.fi
#47 by Phayyde

The way I see this, is that we're no longer competiting against other games. IMO we're now fighting on the time/money share against DVD's, movies, books and television.

That's right on.  I'd add that videogaming will never fairly compete with these other mediums until they stop selling to kids and start selling to people.


Yeah, well... we'll try to give this a shot ;)

And I'm still waiting for games to break into the female segment as well (thankfully it looks like The Sims is doing some good work on that front).
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