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Doom 3 Leaked!
November 2nd 2002, 01:12 CET by tarn

Er, Doom 3 got leaked!

Discuss.
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#1 by Shadarr
2002-11-02 01:14:37
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
Didn't we already say everything that needed to be said about this topic?
#2 by Warren Marshall
2002-11-02 01:15:06
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Who voted 'yes'?  I've got $500 with your name on it ...

"Quit whining you haven't done anything wrong because, frankly, you haven't done much of anything."
#3 by Caryn
2002-11-02 01:17:46
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
Warren, I see your $500 and I raise you a plane ticket for one Baileytron.

"Went to eat my breakfast the next morning, the blues started to walkin' all over my bread..." -- Sonny Boy Williamson, 23 Hours Too Long
#4 by Creole Ned
2002-11-02 01:18:42
Tribal War has several threads about the leak -- where to get it, config settings and so on. TySoft (PlanetTribes and TeamWarfare admin) said, "it rox. ill dl it when it comes out - worth it!"

I weep for our world.

"I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
#5 by Desiato
2002-11-02 01:19:10
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
RAWR!

Yeah, the cat is out of the bag, but only a complete moron would think that it represents the full-

Oh wait, I get it.

Kill all gaming morons.

Paranoia is just reality on a finer scale.
#6 by Caryn
2002-11-02 01:21:01
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
Oh, trust me, Ned...my weeping is much louder than yours.

"Went to eat my breakfast the next morning, the blues started to walkin' all over my bread..." -- Sonny Boy Williamson, 23 Hours Too Long
#7 by LPMiller
2002-11-02 01:26:01
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
don't think of it as a software leak. Think of it as a sudden surge in video card sales.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#8 by LPMiller
2002-11-02 01:27:21
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
oh, and screw the 500 dollars. Send me a bottle of Maker's Mark, and I'll have 'em killed.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#9 by LPMiller
2002-11-02 01:27:51
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
2 bottles, and you can leave your own personalized greeting and/or salutation.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#10 by chris
2002-11-02 01:29:52
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
THIS TOPIC IS SUX!!!

and so forth.

Now that I've fulfilled my apparent duty as a planetcrap poster, I guess I'll actually comment on the subject: Why is this a surprise? Game leaks are nothing new. I knew people who were playing Unreal (the original) *months* before it came out. Possibly more than a year. My friends and I were playing LAN Quake 1 five months before the game hit retail shelves (in fact, an easy way to tell if an old-skool quaker pirated the leak back in the day is to listen to whether they call it "quad damage" or "quake power", since the latter is how the text file for the leak referred to it).

HL Day One leaked. Unreal 2 leaked. UT2K3 leaked. Lots of games leak.

This doesn't mean I think it's a good thing... but it shouldn't be an unexpected occurence.

What interests me about this whole topic is not that Doom 3 leaked. Rather, I'm curious as to what people think might be the solution to this problem. Are there truly ways to prevent leaks, or at least better-track their source?

Or is it just something that's going to happen regardless of the security measures put into them?

Please note - this is not a warez question, really. I'm not talking about copy protection. I'm talking about ways to increase accountability for the testers and other people who get very early builds of a game.

-chris
#11 by Ergo
2002-11-02 01:34:13
I think it has a lot to do with id's image as a development house. id's reputation borders on "godlike" (sorry, UT) with the hardcore gamer community, like it or not. I suppose it's a shock to a lot of folks that developers at id are human beings.

Glavin.

DVDs
#12 by Warren Marshall
2002-11-02 01:36:12
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
There's nothing you can do about it, really.  The only way would be to have all of your QA in house, with no CD burners or internet connections available to them and a security guard frisking everyone as they left the office.  Even then, you'd get people dumping CDs in the trash or out the window.  People suck.  EOD.

"Quit whining you haven't done anything wrong because, frankly, you haven't done much of anything."
#13 by yotsuya
2002-11-02 01:37:09
I have to be honest- playing the leaked Half-Life Day One SOLD me on the game in a big way.

Reed Rothchild: Have you seen that Star Wars movie?
Eddie Adams: Yeah, I've seen it four times.
Reed Rothchild: You know, people tell me I kind of look like Han Solo.
#14 by LPMiller
2002-11-02 01:37:37
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
I don't actually think leaks are really a bad thing.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#15 by Greg
2002-11-02 01:39:23
It'd be funny if the Doom 3 leak had a little bit of code that would randomly damage parts of the user's installation.

Or maybe just something a bit simpler, like deleting itself after running a couple of times.

"I am not a mouse! This thing can't hurt me! Ha ha, the peanut butter is mine!!!" - Lydia Lu
#16 by Creole Ned
2002-11-02 01:41:15
Half-Life Day One -- was that the version that included the "uncut" version of the opening tram ride? Call me perverse, but I've always wanted to see the longer version of that (not that I'm asking for links to TEH WAREZ, just curious if that was it).

And yeah, I doubt there's any way to stop leaks. In the case of UT2003 and Doom3, most of the word has been positive, so presumably it may actually help -- if any of these people actually buy the game when it comes out, that is.

"I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
#17 by yotsuya
2002-11-02 01:42:29
Maybe they should use a a 16 digit keycode that get authenticated by a central server to run the IHV.

Reed Rothchild: Have you seen that Star Wars movie?
Eddie Adams: Yeah, I've seen it four times.
Reed Rothchild: You know, people tell me I kind of look like Han Solo.
#18 by Your Friend
2002-11-02 01:43:16

Are there truly ways to prevent leaks,


No.  Not unless you've got a development team of one, and he (or she) is you, and you're coding/modelling/etc your game down in a bunker somewhere on a computer with no Internet access.


or at least better-track their source?


Sort of.  It would be easy to insert something like a 'watermark' string into every binary that identifies the purpose of the copy.  Eg, "D3-EARLY_REVIEW_COPY-PC_GAMER".  With a bit of monkeying around you could even scramble it so its not easily detectable by a string search of the binary.  But experienced warez crackers can always remove it, if they know its there, and most of the time it will only tell you so much.  For the E3 demo, for example... Even if they know for a fact its the E3 specific build, it doesn't tell them how it got out.. Did someone copy it off the computer to their iPod when nobody was looking?   Or? There's just so many ways the copy might have been 'leaked' in that case.

In any case, I don't think its really that much of a problem in the long run.
#19 by Your Friend
2002-11-02 01:45:58

Maybe they should use a a 16 digit keycode that get authenticated by a central server to run the IHV.


That's all well and good until someone with a tiny bit of assembly knowledge and a copy of ida pro goes in and inserts a jump over the authentication check.  Keycode authentication is only really useful for multiplayer games because you've got code on a remote server that the warezer can't modify (well he/she can, and they will, but then other wazers need to run the legal risks of running a cracked server).
#20 by Greg
2002-11-02 01:46:08
YF:

No.  Not unless you've got a development team of one, and he (or she) is you, and you're coding/modelling/etc your game down in a bunker somewhere on a computer with no Internet access.

So all these idea men that Warren link to from Flipcode should feel relatively safe, right?

"I am not a mouse! This thing can't hurt me! Ha ha, the peanut butter is mine!!!" - Lydia Lu
#21 by chris
2002-11-02 01:46:45
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
I don't recall the opening from Day One being different from the opening in the retail game.

And yes, Day One sold me on HL. Up until that leaked, I hadn't been too terribly interested in the game. The screenshots didn't look nearly as good as Sin, to be honest.

yotsuya - anything that uses a keycode can and will be cracked.

-chris
#22 by Your Friend
2002-11-02 01:49:44

So all these idea men that Warren link to from Flipcode should feel relatively safe, right?


Well, to have your code stolen you must first have some code.  So I think those guys should be able to sleep at night without worrying too much about this problem.
#23 by Your Friend
2002-11-02 01:51:05
In what way was the 'uncut' tram ride supposed to be different?  Even though its something you only have to do once, I found the tram ride to be pretty boring, actually.  Could have been cut a lot more.
#24 by Bailey
2002-11-02 01:54:17
No one will ever debate that.

#25 by Greg
2002-11-02 01:56:58
YF:

I was comparing the bunker you described to their mom's basement.

"I am not a mouse! This thing can't hurt me! Ha ha, the peanut butter is mine!!!" - Lydia Lu
#26 by Creole Ned
2002-11-02 01:57:47
I assume Valve felt the same way, hence the retail version *was* cut. :)

I never heard any details about how much longer the tram ride was. If it's about five minutes or so now, maybe it was 10 before? I imagine it was nothing spectacular, just more glimpses of scientists scurrying about and such. I'm curious to see it more as a completist thing. I still think it was a terrific way to open a game, since it immersed you in the game world in a way that was much more immediate than, say, a rendered cutscene.

"I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
#27 by Your Friend
2002-11-02 01:58:55
Sadly their mom's basement has Internet access.
#28 by Your Friend
2002-11-02 02:01:04
I think the tram ride stuff was pretty good too.  But about twice as long as it should have been.
#29 by Stralutia
2002-11-02 02:01:59
stralutia@hotmail.com None
I typically won't bash topics, but seeing as how this isn't a topic in the truest sense of the word;

Er, Doom 3 got leaked!

Discuss.


I thought we already have.  In previous threads and in IRC this has been hashed out already.  Even if the topic-writer was oblivious to this (or even if the topic was the catalyst for this, it matters not) why this got voted in is beyond me.  I demand a recount.

Reading: American Psycho by Brett Easton Ellis
#30 by Bailey
2002-11-02 02:04:46
Shut up.

#31 by yotsuya
2002-11-02 02:06:21
The lenght of the tram ride never bothered me. I was floored by it the first time I saw it, so I generally have good memories of it.

I demand a recount.

Damn Republicans already declared this topic a winner in Florida.

Reed Rothchild: Have you seen that Star Wars movie?
Eddie Adams: Yeah, I've seen it four times.
Reed Rothchild: You know, people tell me I kind of look like Han Solo.
#32 by Your Friend
2002-11-02 02:07:15

Even if the topic-writer was oblivious to this (or even if the topic was the catalyst for this, it matters not) why this got voted in is beyond me.  I demand a recount.


While I think the topic is kind of stupid myself....its not like there are 100 other topics languishing in the submission bin waiting to be discussed.
#33 by bago
2002-11-02 02:10:11
manga_Rando@hotmail.com
Simply stash the watermark as typos and whatnot in various documents and datafiles. A "sucess" in the comments for header blah means this was the E3 build. An "its'" instead of an "it's" in the readme is the ATI IHV copy.

Subtle, a pain to implement, but it'll tell you who is giving out your leaks.

Why don't you study REAL science?
#34 by Creole Ned
2002-11-02 02:14:27
Texture map all of the zombies with neon "E3 BUILD" lettering.

"I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
#35 by Your Friend
2002-11-02 02:16:17

A "sucess" in the comments for header blah means this was the E3 build.


ObNit: The comments won't exist in the resulting binary.  But other than that, we know what you meant.

And yeah I don't think it would be worth all the tracking overhead.  Especially since knowing the leak source (the who) doesn't necessarily tell you the hows and whys.
#36 by Caryn
2002-11-02 02:20:36
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
Your Friend:

Especially since knowing the leak source (the who) doesn't necessarily tell you the hows and whys.


If you can trace a leak to the individual who leaked it, that is still valuable. I think part of the problem is that there is little to no accoutability when it comes to leaks -- no one knows who the index case was, and the index case is reasonably sure that no one will ever know it was him, so he doesn't have to worry about paying the consequences of breaking an NDA.

I would love to see a leak like this traced definitively to the source leaker, and then watch as the consequences are meted out. I think if people knew that people would know it was them, it might stem at least some of the tide (at least the "hey, if you promise not to give this to anyone else, I'll give you a copy of the build" kind of leaks).

"Went to eat my breakfast the next morning, the blues started to walkin' all over my bread..." -- Sonny Boy Williamson, 23 Hours Too Long
#37 by Leslie Nassar
2002-11-02 02:23:29
http://departmentofinternets.com
Everyone will suffer...

A shield spell?
To protect them from the culling song, the Sarge says.
"But not to worry," he says.  "I have a badge and a gun and a penis."
#38 by chris
2002-11-02 02:23:39
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
You need to watermark on a more specific level. "E3 Build" tells you nothing. "Copy give to Bob Thompson- Senior QA Tester - Activision" would mean a lot more.

re: The Topic -

Personally, I vote yes for almost every single topic that comes in. Including this one.

Because all but the poorest topics are just going to segue into some new discussion anyway. And the site tends to feel more "alive" when topics are rotating regularly. Usually the best discussions happen in the first 400 or so posts.

The only reason I don't submit topics myself is because it is vaguely a conflict of interest. If I'm going to write editorials of that size, I should probably do it for the people who pay me.

-chris
#39 by Warren Marshall
2002-11-02 02:25:20
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
I think the one copy of UT2003 that didn't leak was the one where we displayed the name and phone number of the person we gave it to on the HUD.

"Quit whining you haven't done anything wrong because, frankly, you haven't done much of anything."
#40 by bago
2002-11-02 02:27:28
manga_Rando@hotmail.com
Well, I was thinking header for a model file or the id scripting solution - something like that. Someplace where text winds up leftover from the development process.

Why don't you study REAL science?
#41 by Foodbunny
2002-11-02 02:29:09
foodbunny@attbi.com http://www.foodbunny.com
Bago, I like your idea even though I have no idea how useful it would actually be.

It won't have any impact on DNF.  Nothing really does.
#42 by bago
2002-11-02 02:31:51
manga_Rando@hotmail.com
Well, It's not my idea per-se, but I think it's called the canary technique of leak tracking. Used in politics and whatnot.

Why don't you study REAL science?
#43 by HiredGoons
2002-11-02 02:43:07
Along bago's lines, how about doing something like making the background of the GUI menu red for your inhouse development, blue for the copy you give to QA, green for something else.

id hears about the leak, they grab it off the net -- note the color of the GUI and then can interrogate the likely suspect(s).

To a non-coder such as myself, it seems like there are a number of subtle alterations that could be made that would let you track where the leak is happening.  Perhaps it's not worth the effort, but a lot of industries worry about leaks and there are some really sneaky ways to trick leakers into revealing themselves.
#44 by Lu-Tze
2002-11-02 03:10:42
www.concretiahell.tk
Unless of course the leak was planned.

But ID software would certainly never stoop to such levels just to ensure that everyone got a nice big taster of Doom 3 and gave it a big fat hype boost. Certainly not after it did so much for the general awareness of UT2003...

"A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
#45 by Sgt Hulka
2002-11-02 03:25:50
As far as I know, I am not writing the strategy guide for Doom III, although, I should be, but that's another story.  I can remember the days when I wrote guides though and copies of software were shuffled around on tape backups, CD's, over the internet, around the world without much regard to "safety" or leaks by my publishers.  From what I've seen in the biz, outside of the developer, leaks are not a priority for others involved in the gaming business.

I have not seen the leak, and even if I downloaded it, I doubt my system would run it. I'll wait for the game to come out, all you guys can pay good money for it, tell me how cool it is, and I'll take your word for it.  I'm saving up for a pony.

no beginning, no end, all you get is the middle...  - deal with it!
#46 by Bailey
2002-11-02 03:37:31
Warren

That sounds like a pretty good tracking method. Why didn't you use that on the other leaks?

#47 by Leslie Nassar
2002-11-02 03:38:40
http://departmentofinternets.com
Unless of course the leak was planned.

But ID software would certainly never stoop to such levels just to ensure that everyone got a nice big taster of Doom 3 and gave it a big fat hype boost.

Wow, ignorant much?  Take a ride in the wayback machine there, whippersnapper, and take a look at Id's history.  Id aren't shy about releasing technology demos.  It's fucking Doom 3, not Pencil Whipped 3.  They don't need to "accidentally" leak anything to get people talking about it.  Look at the screenshots.  Do you honestly think something running at 3 fps is going to build positive hype?

A shield spell?
To protect them from the culling song, the Sarge says.
"But not to worry," he says.  "I have a badge and a gun and a penis."
#48 by Caryn
2002-11-02 03:42:42
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
Leslie:

Wow, ignorant much?  Take a ride in the wayback machine there, whippersnapper, and take a look at Id's history.  Id aren't shy about releasing technology demos.  It's fucking Doom 3, not Pencil Whipped 3.  They don't need to "accidentally" leak anything to get people talking about it.  Look at the screenshots.  Do you honestly think something running at 3 fps is going to build positive hype?


My response was just going to be, "Ahahahahaaaaaahahahahahaaaahahahaaaaa aaaahaaaa aaaoohhhh ho ho ho ho...MERCY!" But you said it so well.

"Went to eat my breakfast the next morning, the blues started to walkin' all over my bread..." -- Sonny Boy Williamson, 23 Hours Too Long
#49 by Lu-Tze
2002-11-02 03:51:21
www.concretiahell.tk
It's unfortunate for them that the guy who took all the screenshots that seem to be doing the rounds have it at about 3fps when many/most others seem to run it up at somewhere over at least 20fps.

However interviews had made people resentful and apprehensive towards Doom 3... Keycards again? Annoying auto-use functions that snap you out of the game? Why yes, these and many more concerns. Why not let everybody see the real strengths of Doom 3, the game in motion, as opposed to the static screenshots which many people have agreed do not show off the amazing visuals properly.

Apologies for being ignorant, but is it really too far flung a possibility to think that someone somewhere thought it would be a good idea to release a Doom 3 Technology Test on the general public? Just to try to spark a bit more interest because everyone has calmed down a bit since the initial hype and is just waiting patiently to see if it actually delivers what it promises.

"A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
#50 by Your Friend
2002-11-02 03:52:53
The one issue I have with displaying the name of the person who got the copy right on the HUD is that then they know the protection is there, and if they are a r33t hax0r or know one, they can strip if off, whereas with other methods (like hiding it in the binary or using the movie-script like misspellings) are less likely to be stripped because they wont even realize they are there.

Of course, for the vast majority of people, the name-on-HUD would be a great deterrent against the thing getting released in the first place...

Though again, I don't think this ever hurts any games commercially.  The real issue is just a variation of the artist not wanting the public to see the work until its "done".
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