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Sweet, Sweet Voice of Reason
October 16th 2002, 06:23 CEST by Bailey

Now, for the sake of history and proactive forum mods, I'll just unleash ye olde copy n' pasteth on the words herr Sweeney spake.

Hi,

Sorry you're running into the SecuROM problems. The SecuROM guys have implemented a number of fixes based on bug reports here and elsewhere, and that will be in the next patch.

In the meantime, you might try the UT2003 NOCD crack available on http://www.megagames.com/cracks/html/c905670_0.htm. If you've purchased the game, you can feel free to use a utility like this to remove the copy protection. We're against piracy but support the rights of users to modify the game like this.

-Tim

A very pleasant fellow. Clearly thinking on his feet in response to the whole backlash surrounding the perennial SecuROM issue, and the unwashed hordes at the gate. And though "hordes" may be a strong word for an issue that (reportedly) only griefs 1% of the million or so of the proud owners, present and future, of UT2K3, I think we can all agree that "unwashed" is less of a strong term than an accurate one. So let's take a little breakdown of the situation as it stands.

A) Epic produces a finely-crafted, highly advanced piece of sniper-training software.

B) Despite multiple leaks of the pre-retail build, or perhaps due to their presence online, Epic insists on instating the SecuROM copy protection system, in addition to the CD-check and key-check, in the hopes of shielding their precious offspring from the ravages of Joe Compaq.

C) UT2K3 is released in stores. However, , preceding this more standard form of publication by more than 24 hours, it is also released on usenet, IRC, assorted FTP sites, and the p2p networks. Cracking groups kindly volunteer to include no-CD patches, burning instructions, and a fully functional 20-digit key generator for online play.

D) Real fans with real morals and real jobs opt to purchase Epic's product with a mere (reported) 1% being unable to play the game they just spend in the area of $40-50, depending on how much of an impulse buyer they were.

E) Real fans who chose to provide high-capacity, phat pipe servers for Epic's fine product are somewhat disappointed to discover SecuROM tends to cause crashes, CPU-crunching lag, and varied other minor irritants. No-CD cracks are swiftly implemented, with extreme prejudice.

F) Various Epic staff direct grumbling monkey-fans to crack sitez so as to allow everyone to enjoy the game.

And a wee Update:

G) Mr.Sweeney's post on the Infogrames forum garners a deleted thread. Good to see they're all on the same team.

So, warez war aside, SecuROM is obviously a giant flailing fuck-up of a train wreck, Infogrames are heavy-handed ogres, and Epic is left somewhere in the middle, looking out for the fans, but still relying on protection methods which are not only highly fallible, but also unstable.

Who wins in this situation?
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Home » Topic: Sweet, Sweet Voice of Reason

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#1 by Bailey
2002-10-16 06:23:46
Whee.

Only you can save this site from financial ruin and cruel jokes on FuckedCompany.
#2 by Charles
2002-10-16 06:24:56
www.bluh.org
It is obvious who wins.  We do, since it gives us another mindless morn-bumped topic to waste.

"There is a huge difference between disliking somebody - maybe even disliking them a lot - and actually shooting them, strangling them, dragging them through the fields and setting their house on fire. It was a difference which kept the vast majority of the population alive from day to day."
-Douglas Adams, Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency.
#3 by Euri
2002-10-16 06:25:00
yolora@attbi.com http://www.eurikins.com
We all win.

You suck and that's sad :(
#4 by Bailey
2002-10-16 06:25:15
I forgot to mention the part at the end where all the Epic staff drive into the sunset in their gold-plated ferraris, but otherwise, feel free to add updates to the situation as we go.

Only you can save this site from financial ruin and cruel jokes on FuckedCompany.
#5 by Creole Ned
2002-10-16 06:26:26
Cheater! I didn't even get a chance to vote!

Also, the winner in this is Infogrames, 'cause they get the money and dismiss the complaints. It's up to Epic to turf the SecuROM protection, just as BioWare did for NWN. The software is crap.

"I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
#6 by Matthew Gallant
2002-10-16 06:27:09
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
I think Sony wins. Their marketing strategy of "THIS SECUROM SURE DOES WORK" seems unusually effective.

"Is the internet making people less intelligent?"
"You mean like how video cameras cause thrown objects to hit men in the crotch?"
#7 by lwf
2002-10-16 06:27:24
i bet that took you a long time.

I'd like to debate whether cannibalism ought to be grounds for leniency in murders since it is less wasteful
#8 by jafd
2002-10-16 06:27:38
They are innovation.

"A cleric that can pick locks? That'd be handy."
#9 by Bailey
2002-10-16 06:31:32
They are rocking my world.

Only you can save this site from financial ruin and cruel jokes on FuckedCompany.
#10 by chris
2002-10-16 06:31:41
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
You know... it sometimes seems to me like the slow progression of the games industry over the years toward having a few gigantic distributors is (much like in every industry that has followed that model, see also: music, movies, and most other forms of entertainment) turning out to be a total clusterfuck where the creators and fans get screwed, while the corporate retards make all the money.

-chris
#11 by BobJustBob
2002-10-16 06:40:51
I was one of the poor 1%. First game ever to not work on either one of my drives. Pity me.

I'm killing myself with cola.
#12 by Foodbunny
2002-10-16 06:45:35
foodbunny@attbi.com http://www.foodbunny.com
And here's the thread.

It won't have any impact on DNF.  Nothing really does.
#13 by Post-It
2002-10-16 06:47:03
keithlee@speakeasy.net
Cops, come and try and snacth my crops!

Comment Signature
#14 by jafd
2002-10-16 06:47:42
spake Sweeny:
If you've purchased the game, you can feel free to use a utility like this to remove the copy protection. We're against piracy but support the rights of users to modify the game like this.

Is that what it says in the EULA? Well, huzzah!

"A cleric that can pick locks? That'd be handy."
#15 by Matthew Gallant
2002-10-16 06:58:35
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
While Tim posting a link to a crack was certainly gracious, I doubt it would help someone like me, who has trouble getting copy-protected games to install in the first place.

"Is the internet making people less intelligent?"
"You mean like how video cameras cause thrown objects to hit men in the crotch?"
#16 by jafd
2002-10-16 07:07:10
There are other gracious folks who provide links to the disk images. Sweeney is just filling in the gaps!

"A cleric that can pick locks? That'd be handy."
#17 by "Mank"
2002-10-16 07:17:36
From what I understand of the SecureRom tech, the code is -included- in the executable. But the encryption is not done by the developer if I understand it correctly. So any form of rollback is pretty much out of the question once you've bought the CD right? Unless they remove it(secureROM) completely in a patch that is...??
#18 by r a w p o w e r
2002-10-16 08:42:24
backonthemap@hotmail.com
"I HAVE A AXE TO GRIND BECAUSE THIS GAME WAS PIRATED AFTER I WENT AND PAID FOR IT ,  AS WELL"

Stillborn baby:
Your mother didn't want you but you were still born.  
  -cannibal ox
#19 by Ashiran
2002-10-16 08:59:15
turning out to be a total clusterfuck where the creators and fans get screwed, while the corporate retards make all the money.

Customers are slaves of the capitalist system.

Do you hate that big coperate company? Doesn't matter cause you still keep buying their stuff anyway!

I am the new gay vampire.
#20 by BobJustBob
2002-10-16 09:10:43
MattG, that was my problem too. It recognizes the disc, but can't actually access it. So it's okay for a cd check (I'm using the no-cd anyway, of course) but it wouldn't install. If I hadn't had a compatible drive on a different pc on this network, I don't know what I would have done.

Probably would have returned the game and downloaded the warez version.

I'm killing myself with cola.
#21 by Terata
2002-10-16 10:07:23
I don't think I've run into any issues with any of the copy protection schemes thus far, personally... maybe I just have good luck with CD drives or something.  *shrug*
#22 by Matt Davis
2002-10-16 10:45:06
http://looroll.com
I had to firmware my Yamaha CDRW 4 times before it worked with securerom and the like. However I've never had a single problem with my pioneer x16 DVD.

I'm interested to know what CD/DVD/CDRW drives people have installed and whether they have a problem or not, perhaps we could build a little database.

"But thanks to Matt's powers of insinuation, I haven't worn said pants (in the British sense) in over a month... and I've never felt more alive!" - Bailey
#23 by Ashiran
2002-10-16 11:25:20
I would like to help but unfortunately play.com manged to lose my copy of UT2K3. I recieved all the other things I ordered. But not UT2k3. Ofcourse this might have something to do with the l33t trackingsystem they tagged on to said order. And thus it probably was shipped in some other way. Problem is; copy hasn't arrived yet and the trackingsystem has no idea where my it is.

Note to play.com: this other way of shipping stuff sucks.

I am the new gay vampire.
#24 by Wheelie
2002-10-16 12:35:06
Well, that's odd (the linkage that Sweeney provides in the official forum that is). I would have gone with the "remove SecuROM" crowd on this one. Linking to a No-CD crack is a sure way to piss of the publisher. Surely it would have been possible to negotiate the removal of SecuROM in the next patch?
Odd I say.

Need more money
#25 by jafd
2002-10-16 13:45:31
It's worth reiterating that for a non-zero percentage of the legitimate buyers, no patch will ever fix the problem.

It's the end of patchware! Now that's innovation.

"A cleric that can pick locks? That'd be handy."
#26 by Wheelie
2002-10-16 14:52:12
no patch will ever fix the problem.


Unless you don't count downloading the tripple ISO-patch and running it of your harddrive.

Need more money
#27 by Wheelie
2002-10-16 14:53:18
Unless should be If.
I think...
...uh

Need more money
#28 by Stralutia
2002-10-16 15:38:29
stralutia@hotmail.com None
As usual, the middleman is the winner in the end.  The customers lose because they get a defective product.  The developers lose because they get bitched at by said customers, and are then spending tech support dollars and post-development dollars patching the thing.  The middleman is the one who really pushes SecureROM and the like, since the developer knows what it can do and doesn't want to be bitched at by the customers (I'm assuming this is how it works, if someone with more intimate knowledge of the food chain in this respect could correct me I would be forever humbled).  The middleman is the one with nothing to lose from SecureROM fucking up.  Their money is in the bank regardless of whether the customer keeps the product, tries to return it (usually for an exchange), or throws it away.

Okay, I'll admit it: I like 'Tales From Topographic Oceans'.
#29 by Warren Marshall
2002-10-16 15:44:33
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Stralutia
since the developer knows what it can do and doesn't want to be bitched at by the customers (I'm assuming this is how it works, if someone with more intimate knowledge of the food chain in this respect could correct me I would be forever humbled).  

Yes and no.  The developer doesn't want to inconvenience customers, but they also want to make enough money to stay in business so what it usually comes down to is that they don't WANT to put copy protection on the disk but in the end, everyone agrees it's necessary.

"You can't kill a man when he's got no hope."
#30 by Matt Perkins
2002-10-16 15:46:11
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
What is this making money you talk of?  Aren't games pure labors of love, money as an after thought?

"Fuck you for making me laugh out loud and causing people to look in my direction."  - Warren
#31 by Stralutia
2002-10-16 15:51:39
stralutia@hotmail.com None
What is this making money you talk of?  Aren't games pure labors of love, money as an after thought?


I'd like to ask the key players of Looking Glass about that.

Okay, I'll admit it: I like 'Tales From Topographic Oceans'.
#32 by Desiato
2002-10-16 15:53:54
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
I bought the game, and applied the no-cd crack in short order.

(For the "where's the proof" monkeys, I'll gladly email my CD-Key to Warren or anyone at Epic to verify it is legit, in addition to a photo of said CDs and the box they came in. Or the easier route, I'll take your lunch money and you can take my word for it.)

I hate having to play disc-shuffle when I want to play a different game. I realize that Epic is at the mercy of other forces, distribution and publishing the biggest one, but the guys at Epic tried to strike a compromise (per warren's last comment about SecureRom) by opting for the "lightest" version, sating the requirements of the publisher and allowing them to buy some more ramen and grilled cheese sandwiches.

Perhaps after a calcium-induced high of programming and grilled-cheese lucidity Tim Sweeney decided to just let the cat out of the bag, hoping that people would still have the willingness to buy the game, and at the same time provide relief for those who weren't aware of the bountiful cornicopia of no-cd sites.

Infogrames promptly had a heart attack, then blew away the post. But the information is already out there, isn't it? Bit too late, but we appreciate the gesture, Tim.

Reactions to technology can be categorized by the following rules:
1. Anything that is in the world when you're born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that is invented between when you're fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
#33 by Wheelie
2002-10-16 15:55:27
Money is the stuff that dreams are made of

Need more money
#34 by Stralutia
2002-10-16 15:57:02
stralutia@hotmail.com None
Warren:

However I'm sure that if there was any sort of uncertainty on the developer's part as to whether or not to include some sort of copy protection scheme, the publisher would be more than happy to apply some pressure in order to insure that there is some included on the final shipping product.  I mean, the publisher has nothing to lose right?  It isn't like they handle the tech support or deal with the angry fanbase.

Okay, I'll admit it: I like 'Tales From Topographic Oceans'.
#35 by Stralutia
2002-10-16 15:58:08
stralutia@hotmail.com None
Reactions to technology can be categorized by the following rules:
1. Anything that is in the world when you're born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that is invented between when you're fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.


Funny, true, and ultimately very sad.

Okay, I'll admit it: I like 'Tales From Topographic Oceans'.
#36 by Wheelie
2002-10-16 16:04:08
I mean, the publisher has nothing to lose right?  It isn't like they handle the tech support or deal with the angry fanbase.

Publishers do handle tech support. Here's Infogrames

Need more money
#37 by Greg
2002-10-16 16:04:51
Warren:

Yes and no.  The developer doesn't want to inconvenience customers, but they also want to make enough money to stay in business so what it usually comes down to is that they don't WANT to put copy protection on the disk but in the end, everyone agrees it's necessary.

Doesn't it all go back to piracy deterrent? The problem being is that if you really want to get a pirated version, you can almost always find one, regardless of the level of copy protection. I think the best case for UT2k3 would be to use the CD-Key/Master Server check as the only form of protection, but there are a few problems with that right now. One, it would be ineffective for people who only play single player, the other being that perfectly working keygen creator.

"I am not a mouse! This thing can't hurt me! Ha ha, the peanut butter is mine!!!" - Lydia Lu
#38 by Wheelie
2002-10-16 16:07:04
This is a warez-thread?
Oh no...

Need more money
#39 by Stralutia
2002-10-16 16:08:41
stralutia@hotmail.com None
Interesting.  Any bets on a what point exactly your call or email gets forwarded to the appropriate development company?

Okay, I'll admit it: I like 'Tales From Topographic Oceans'.
#40 by Wheelie
2002-10-16 16:16:55
At the point when the publishers techsupport has shitload of complaints saying the exact same thing. Numbers may vary.

Need more money
#41 by Greg
2002-10-16 16:28:43
I'm sorry... don't want to open a can of worms. But that is the reason for putting the copy protection in in the first place.

"I am not a mouse! This thing can't hurt me! Ha ha, the peanut butter is mine!!!" - Lydia Lu
#42 by None-1a
2002-10-16 16:37:03
Something needs to be done to slow piracy rates among the mainstream. Now granted going as far as encryption to try preventing copying might not be needed (hell ever mainstream user I know with a burner can only manage to make an audio cd using real player, and even then they only get it right half the time anyway*).

*This isn't my fault I've tried to teach them to use nero but they just don't get it.
#43 by Matt Davis
2002-10-16 16:38:13
http://looroll.com
Perhaps switching to DVD formats would help?

"But thanks to Matt's powers of insinuation, I haven't worn said pants (in the British sense) in over a month... and I've never felt more alive!" - Bailey
#44 by Stralutia
2002-10-16 16:44:24
stralutia@hotmail.com None
It might help, but doing so would only be a temporary fix until DVD burners came down in price (they already are now) and became a standard item in most systems.

Okay, I'll admit it: I like 'Tales From Topographic Oceans'.
#45 by Warren Marshall
2002-10-16 17:08:47
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Stralutia
It isn't like they handle the tech support or deal with the angry fanbase.

Actually, they do.  Infogrames handles front line tech support.  Epic couldn't possibly do it ... we're a small company.

We support our licensees directly, but not retail customers.

Greg
Doesn't it all go back to piracy deterrent?

Right, which is why I brought up the money issue.

The problem being is that if you really want to get a pirated version, you can almost always find one, regardless of the level of copy protection. I think the best case for UT2k3 would be to use the CD-Key/Master Server check as the only form of protection, but there are a few problems with that right now. One, it would be ineffective for people who only play single player, the other being that perfectly working keygen creator.

This gets back to the wrong impression people have of UT2003 customers ... most of them do NOT play online.  Seriously.  Most are happy playing single player and bots.  CD keys don't do a damn bit of good against those people making copies for friends.

Stralutia
Interesting.  Any bets on a what point exactly your call or email gets forwarded to the appropriate development company?

When they've exhausted all of their options and the customer still isn't happy.

Matt Davies
Perhaps switching to DVD formats would help?

This is assuming that everyone has a DVD drive in their computer.

"You can't kill a man when he's got no hope."
#46 by Matt Davis
2002-10-16 17:10:56
http://looroll.com
Warren,

perhaps offering the option (like back in the day of CD and Floppies) and offering bonus crap with the DVD version (just like they added FMV on cds back then).

I'd gladly buy DVD just to have to not deal with 3 CDs.

"But thanks to Matt's powers of insinuation, I haven't worn said pants (in the British sense) in over a month... and I've never felt more alive!" - Bailey
#47 by Matt Davis
2002-10-16 17:13:01
http://looroll.com
thinking...

It's part of the reason I think why DVDs in computers haven't completely removed cdroms, and they tempted you over by offering little extras, it was also a gentle push that they were going to phase out the older of the two formats.

Works for me.

"But thanks to Matt's powers of insinuation, I haven't worn said pants (in the British sense) in over a month... and I've never felt more alive!" - Bailey
#48 by Ergo
2002-10-16 17:17:40
I'm still very surprised that more software isn't available in the marketplace, considering that DVD drives are standard (and have been for a while) in most Joe Compaq machines.

Glavin.

DVDs
#49 by HoseWater
2002-10-16 17:23:59
barneyque@hotmail.com
I think in the end, large format digital media (games/movies) will probably get its piracy break from ISP's in the form of combined in/out bound byte caps and EULA enforcement.

Once a large majority of residential broadband customers get pinned behind byte caps, P2P networks will potentially fall to the ground. People will at most be able to steal one, maybe two games a month, then they will have to kill their p2p clients, or offer nothing for upload. The penalties on exceeding the byte caps will make it cheaper to buy the game, or do without.

The other tool ISPs will use, is the EULA prohibiting servers. My ISP has progressively been getting closer and closer to following its own rules to the letter.  In the past, they seem to have ignored servers, but used the EULA as a tool to stomp on abusers, now, they are sending nasty emails to people found to even be running a rarely used ssh connection.

If the rest of the world is anything like my current provider (Rogers communications) which recently increased prices 12.5% while at the same time, capping throughput at 50% of previous levels, and is scheduled to implement byte caps in January, then people are going to start being pretty cautious about how they use their connections.  In my case. when a new Linux distro is running from 3 to 5 CD's, that does not leave much room at the end of the month to steal whatever it is thatís hot at the moment (not that I have a recent history of stealing software...not counting the 80's of course).

As a side note, for other Rogers customers here, if there are any, Residential broadband users association is worth checking from time to time. They hold somewhat regular meetings with the Rogers brass as a mediator/voice between the users, and the company on various issues.
#50 by Desiato
2002-10-16 17:42:04
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
I'm surprised that ISPs don't just leap all over products like Packeteer's Packetshaper technology. Goodbye P2P, or if they're really mean, they can throttle it all down to a crawl, causing users to voluntarily give up on trying to grab things from peer-to-peer services. The fight against filesharing is going to get ugly if the RIAA and MPAA go to the plumbing to stop it. There are technologies out there right now that can not only kill P2P, but also spot people trying to use other typical ports and protocols for other purposes, so merely tunneling (unless it was heavily encrypted, I guess) through another opening isn't going to help for long.

Datahavens are either going to become a reality, or people will simply have to refer to the 90's and 00's as the "Great Gravy Train" with their grandchildren, in a world full of hardware/network content control.

Or something.

From infogrames mod / programming forums:
my problem is, im not very skilled in the unrealscriptlanguage, but im skilled in 3dmodelling in 3dsmax, but i search for programers who are good in utscript, and maybe know how to use the karmaphysics, caus i think this is important for this game/mod.
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