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T O P I C
The Lost Genres?
September 20th 2002, 20:34 CEST by Huge Wood Farmer

FPS
MMORPG
RTS
RPG

Is that it for mainstream gaming? Will we ever see a "retro" movement, a surge of new platformers, shooters or any other genre that isn't an acronym?

I can't remember the last game that came out where your goal was to beat the top score, why is this?

Are developers so worried about making each game into an interactive film that they've forgotten the appeal of many of the vintage game-types that started it all?

I'm not saying that new games are bad, quite the opposite, I'm thinking about how great a 2D platform game could be, given a budget and the best damn idea-men this side of the Mississippi.

But maybe I'm full of shit, a silent film directed by Tarrantino would blow, maybe a R-Type style shooter with Spector or Carmack at the helm would suck too. I dunno.

Discuss.
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#1 by Trunks
2002-09-20 20:36:03
I'm waiting to see who will be the first to try and bring the relationship sim to mainstream America...

"Because apparently, Link should be visiting strippers and getting his rocks off every time he blows the magic flute." - LPMiller
#2 by Caliph Clavin
2002-09-20 20:53:16
quinn@dcyde.net
There are some games that are more mastery-oriented (i.e. get a super high score) Jet Set Radio, IMHO was fantastic.

The best way to get your fix is to go import.

If you own a DC (with appropriate modding or disc), get Ikaruga.

You can also get Gunbird2, Mars Matrix, Banagai-O, et. al. domestically.

I'm personally looking forward to the new Sega games (Shinobi, Gungrave, et. al.) -they seem interested in getting that nice addictive replayable 2D formula into 3d form.

It sucks, but the facts are that gamers are more focused on "beating" games or getting stupidly powerful than they are in experiencing the sickly sweet thrill of mastering a hard shooter (I'm biased!).  All the genres you mention satisfy the current gamer's desires in america.

Developers are just giving gamers what they think they want...
#3 by Matt Perkins
2002-09-20 20:56:17
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
Lover of Wood

I think you might be looking at those vintage games with nostalgic tinted glasses, so to speak.  Some of those games were and still are great, but a lot of them aren't as good as you remember them.

As for the categories...  things change slowly in any industry where there is this much money to be made.  Works in the movie industry, works in music industry and it works in the game industry.  Give it time, all will come to pass.

I hang drywall.  Really, I do.
#4 by Warren Marshall
2002-09-20 21:10:06
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
If Epic announced we were doing a retro shooter for our next game, we'd be lynched.

"It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
#5 by Your Friend
2002-09-20 21:11:57
Many aspects of the relationship sim are present in The Sims, especially with "Hot Date" and all that jazz.  Its not quite the same as the 'hardcore' Japanese micromanagement relationship sims, but I think its about the closest approximation american gamers will buy into.
#6 by m0nty
2002-09-20 21:15:34
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
Wasn't that Duke Nukem Manhattan Project a 2D-ish platformer?
#7 by Chunkstyle
2002-09-20 21:17:47
There are plenty of shooters and platformers for Game Boy, and Palm, and even cell phones.  That's pretty mainstream.

I don't think they will ever again be the "big thing," however.
#8 by Your Friend
2002-09-20 21:17:47
If you announced a resurrection of Jazz 3D as your next game, you might also get lynched, but I wouldn't be in the mob.
#9 by m0nty
2002-09-20 21:19:44
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
MONKEYSTONE!
#10 by Your Friend
2002-09-20 21:23:59
A lot of the genres you referenced are actually alive and well in mutated/updated forms on consoles.

So...I don't really have a point here, except you should be very specific and say that PC games can all be placed into those categories.
#11 by TheTrunkDr.
2002-09-20 21:27:48
what about the new contra game? or the newish frogger, pac-man, centipede games, how about Ikaruga, bust a move, etc. sounds like you're just thinking PC games there and nothing of consoles, there are tons of others, action games, beat 'em ups, puzzle, fighters and such. Just beating the top score is not a viable game mechanic anymore, the games are expected to be engaging on their own, a player needs more motivation these days than just getting the high score, few games do it, cause few players care. If you like that sort of thing lots of games add silly chalenges, like getting all the dog tags in MGS2 or something, but the vast majority of player simply couldn't give a rat's ass about it and don't do it. Also consumer expectation comes in huge, people today expect something more than galaga or pong for their money, even if it is a budget title.

Women always see a need for improvment, and men only improve things to either keep them from having to get off of their asses later, or to keep drinks cold.
#12 by Charles
2002-09-20 21:45:47
www.bluh.org
Warren, not only would you be lynched, but someone would start an online petition telling you what to do.

We the undersigned, demand you all grow the fuck up and stop making petitions about little fanboy games that piss you off when they aren't even out yet. Fans don't write the books, they don't script the plots, they don't edit the movies, and they sure as fuck don't make the games. If you think something sucks, don't buy it, but what ever you do, Shut The Fuck Up before someone with a functional IQ and a really big fucking car rams you into next week, you stupid sad ass nerd. Get a fucking girlfriend.

-LPMiller
#13 by Charles
2002-09-20 21:46:49
www.bluh.org
Huge Wood Farmer should just go buy a GBA.

/me goes back to playing Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance

We the undersigned, demand you all grow the fuck up and stop making petitions about little fanboy games that piss you off when they aren't even out yet. Fans don't write the books, they don't script the plots, they don't edit the movies, and they sure as fuck don't make the games. If you think something sucks, don't buy it, but what ever you do, Shut The Fuck Up before someone with a functional IQ and a really big fucking car rams you into next week, you stupid sad ass nerd. Get a fucking girlfriend.

-LPMiller
#14 by mgns
2002-09-20 21:47:31
But then we could lynch the petitioners, wouldn't that be just dandy?

professional philosophical level design monkey.
#15 by Greg
2002-09-20 21:51:35
Warren:

If Epic announced we were doing a retro shooter for our next game, we'd be lynched.

Hooray for retro shooters! Maybe someday I'll finish mine.*







* - Actually, basically start it.

Who is driving?! Oh my god, bear is driving! How can that be?
#16 by Hoe Muffin
2002-09-20 22:34:19
poontanger@hotmail.com
Platformers are alive and (reasonably) well. You have Mario Sunshine, JSRF, Luigi's Mansion, Rayman, and the upcoming Blinx: Timesweeper. I'd actually lump Legacy of Kain, Gun Valkyrie, and a whole bevy of other games into that section. And let's not forget that Castlevania goodness, at least as far as 2d is concerned. But you're right, 2d platformers are few and far inbetween.

As for shooters, THEY seem to be dead :(. Other then Ikaruga, the only thing that looks remotely like a shooter is Panzer Dragoon Orta, which they delayed.

Also, Adventure games seem to be dead (The Longest Journey was the last great adventure game I played, though I've heard good things about Syberia), which sucks.
#17 by E-ph0nk
2002-09-20 22:48:07
http://www.electrophonk.be
adventures anyone?  I know Lucas arts is redoing some stuff (yeah! ??) but shouldn't someone kick Sierra hard enough to continue the larry series?
#18 by "curst"
2002-09-20 22:52:19
curst@zombieworld.com
#17 - No, someone needs to kick Sierra hard enough to finish the Manhunter series.
#19 by Petri Jarvilehto
2002-09-20 22:53:12
petri@remedy.fi http://www.remedy.fi
I was thinking how adventure games are dead (thanks to Gabriel Knight 3), but then again, Ico is definitely a fantastic adventure game even if it does have some action elements. I'd also label Silent Hill 2 as an adventure game, even though it's not a clear example of "Use banana on the cat near the fountain" style gameplay. And even Resident Evil is closer to adventure game than any of the genres mentioned in the subject.
#20 by chris
2002-09-20 23:02:13
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
I never played Manhunter: SF. Only Manhunter: NY. Was the second one any good?

-chris
#21 by BobJustBob
2002-09-20 23:03:47
#0 forgot the Simulation and Turn-Based Strategy games, for starters.

So there.
#22 by Post-It
2002-09-20 23:14:39
keithlee@speakeasy.net
So maybe I'm behind the times or whatever but http://www.kartoo.com/ is a spiffy little search engine if you are looking for or are interested in general topics. I mean it's not Google by a long shot, but it is still an interesting way to search for and relate things to one another on the web. However, it does require Flash.

Comment Signature
#23 by The_Joker
2002-09-20 23:15:33
http://www.jackinworld.com
Weeeeeelllll i see not much has changed. Me and my wang are happy to be back. I'm sure you've all missed me a lot. Right morn?

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
"I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka
#24 by Huge Wood Farmer
2002-09-20 23:17:35
Bob

Fair enough, i just made the quick list of genres that make up 90% of the gaming press (which may or may not be relative to games actually being made)

Everyone Else

I was playing Metal Slug 2 yesterday, and it was fun. Damned fun.

I have never made a game in my life, so I don't know if this is true (warren, maybe you can shed some light?).

Aren't 2D platformers easier to make than 3D FPS's? If so, these bargin bin companies (valu-soft and thier ilk) should focus on well-polished games that do not require a $2M budget. If they could churn out a quality R-type or Commander Keen clone, I'd buy it. But i sure as fuck am not buying thier third rate Half-Life clone.

And yes, i am thinking mostly of the PC, my consoles have been unused the last few months, so Im not really "in the know"

<insert sig here>
#25 by Your Friend
2002-09-20 23:18:50
Didn't even realize you hadn't been posting, until you just posted.

Sorta like one of those air conditioning systems that you usually filter out and only notice when it turns on or off.
#26 by Huge Wood Farmer
2002-09-20 23:19:01
I'd settle for One Slime to be the loading game for DNF

<insert sig here>
#27 by mgns
2002-09-20 23:19:09
Use banana on cat?

On second thought, don't bother elaborating that one, I don't wanna know.

professional philosophical level design monkey.
#28 by Matthew Gallant
2002-09-20 23:23:56
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
#0 forgot the Simulation and Turn-Based Strategy games, for starters.


IL-2 Sturmovik? Soon-to-be released Combat Flight Simulator 3?

Civ III? Age of Wonders II?

"Is the internet making people less intelligent?"
"You mean like how video cameras cause thrown objects to hit men in the crotch?"
#29 by bago
2002-09-20 23:31:12
manga_Rando@hotmail.com
I still think you could have a really fun 3d shooter. Look at warhawk, why didn't that get a sequel?

iamelectro
#30 by George Broussard
2002-09-20 23:47:01
georgeb@3drealms.com
I'm not saying that new games are bad, quite the opposite, I'm thinking about how great a 2D platform game could be, given a budget and the best damn idea-men this side of the Mississippi.


We take chances from time to time.  Duke Nukem: Manhattan Project was one of those.   But the market didn't exactly respond, so it's unlikely you'll see another one.  Too bad too, because it got fairly poistive reviews overall, and was priced right.

But the reality is that gamers grow up and some yearn for the games of the past, but there really isn't a large market for them.  Even a game like Serious Sam which everyone loved, and called back the days of Doom, didn't break any sales records.  I don't think it sold as well as the most bare bones, basic, modern fps shooters out there.
#31 by LPMiller
2002-09-20 23:48:26
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
space combat sims...I need Freespace 3, dammit.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#32 by Stralutia
2002-09-20 23:53:02
stralutia@hotmail.com None
There should be more adventure games.  How about a petition?
#33 by Leslie Nassar
2002-09-21 00:01:11
http://departmentofinternets.com
I'd buy Sim Petition 2003 for a dollar.

I just want to stand on land...
#34 by Huge Wood Farmer
2002-09-21 00:01:38
Geogre

so, basicly, we're fucked

Please stop fagging up my web browser. -Bailey
#35 by "Col. Kilgore"
2002-09-21 00:14:14
michaelch@corbis.com
A pretty fun rehash of Pong can be found here. At least it was fun enough that it got my 19.95.

It seems like a lot of the old skool games are probably going to be developed by smaller companies with web distribution, rather than boxed up in stores.
#36 by Huge Wood Farmer
2002-09-21 00:18:32
ricochet is damned good, technicly, its a breakout rehash.

which, itself was a rehash of pong.

Please stop fagging up my web browser. -Bailey
#37 by deadlock
2002-09-21 00:48:28
http://www.deadlocked.org/
Most of you chaps have probably seen this already - I first came across it on the IRC channel, so i know you have: CrimsonLand. Great fun and extremely simple, the sole point being to beat your high score. In the last week I've probably spent about two days at work playing it. I introduced one of my work colleagues to it and he basically spent the whole day, 8 hours playing it yesterday. At one point, we both turned around, looked at each other and said 'man, your eyes look fucked!' at exactly the same time. Now that's entertainment!

If he's so smart, then how come he's dead?
#38 by Hoe Muffin
2002-09-21 00:51:41
poontanger@hotmail.com
Syberia IS pretty damned good. Not too expensive either! Hopefully it will hold me off until the next Sam and Max.
#39 by Ergo
2002-09-21 00:55:19
I just ordered the new Combat Mission game that was released today. It's turn-based strategy, but with 3D maps and models. The first game was great.

Disgruntled Keeper of The List.

DVDs
#40 by lwf
2002-09-21 00:59:34
What's the point of voting on topics, they all inevitably make it to the frizzont.

I'd like to debate whether cannibalism ought to be grounds for leniency in murders since it is less wasteful
#41 by lwf
2002-09-21 00:59:56
Except for the one about socks.

I'd like to debate whether cannibalism ought to be grounds for leniency in murders since it is less wasteful
#42 by MCorleone
2002-09-21 01:00:12
Chris - I hope you've bought Tomahawk by now.  I'm listening to it now and it's so sweet.  I'm also drinking.  Corona #5.

For those who love Tomahawk, here's some live shit

Creativity is just synthesis without the introspection.  - John Carmack
#43 by Huge Wood Farmer
2002-09-21 01:11:14
Crimsonland is great

lwf is a homo

all is well

Please stop fagging up my web browser. -Bailey
#44 by deadlock
2002-09-21 01:15:28
http://www.deadlocked.org/
Crimsonland is counterproductive

If he's so smart, then how come he's dead?
#45 by Huge Wood Farmer
2002-09-21 01:16:22
Counterproductive love

Please stop fagging up my web browser. -Bailey
#46 by deadlock
2002-09-21 01:25:24
http://www.deadlocked.org/
you'll get no argument from me. now, tell me, what do you know about my father?

If he's so smart, then how come he's dead?
#47 by chris
2002-09-21 01:27:43
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
MC - They didn't have it. :\

I ordered it from amazon. Should show up next week.

I'll check out the live shit.

-chris
#48 by Hugin
2002-09-21 01:30:27
lmccain@nber.org
Eh, something about Crimsonland annoys me.  The movement isn't crisp or precise enough for me.  And the progression of the monsters seems off to me as well.  And the only weapons that are any good are the shotguns. I miss Heavy Barrel and Ikari Warriors (which I know are different games somewhat, but it's the games I think of and miss most when playing Crimsonland, sue me).

Meanwhile, downloaded Shattered Galaxies.  Personally, so far it's not happening.
#49 by Brandon Reinhart
2002-09-21 01:35:57
brandonr@3drealms.com www.animemuyo.com
There is a new adventure game out called Syberia.  Is it any good?

Adventure games.  Ah.  I have fond memories of Day of the Tentacle.

Wage Mage
#50 by Brandon Reinhart
2002-09-21 01:36:32
brandonr@3drealms.com www.animemuyo.com
Holy crap, when will I learn to read the full thread before posting.

Wage Mage
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