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Unreal Quake Tournament 2003
September 18th 2002, 13:58 CEST by UncleJeet

Unreal Tournament had a certain feel and style to it, apart from the rules and how it played, that gave it a certain class that Quake 3 didn't have.  UT23k strips away every Unreal element from UT, replaces them with the look, feel, sound, and style from Quake 3, and meshes them with the rules and gameplay of Unreal Tournament.

Is this blending of "both worlds" a good thing?  Or did Epic lose their balls entirely to try and be more id than id?

Discuss.
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#1 by Ashiran
2002-09-18 14:07:52
I like the speed of the game (which comes from Q3). Also I kick ass on the public servers. So I like it better then UT!
Seeing that Doom3 won't be a mp experience like UT/Q3/UT2K3 I don't see a problem with the blending.

PS. I don't like Jeet. Jeet is a texan hick who owns 34 heads of cattle. And a ranch.

Online gaming? Frustration commences.
#2 by m0nty
2002-09-18 14:08:38
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
I suspect the sameness of the graphical feel may have something to do with the proximity that modern graphical engines have to maintain to the design specs of NVidia cards. As has been said elsewhere, UT2k3 is very reliant on the graphics card, and presumably this means that it makes use of more of the inbuilt features and subroutines of the Popular-Card-O-The-Times than the original UT did. I may be off base, but I would hazard a guess that this is what makes all the varying engines start to look the same.
#3 by Desiato
2002-09-18 14:09:36
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
The rush to compare quake and UT is disconcerting.

What is the point, really? It isn't as if there's some gaming DRM (Digital Rights Management) that prevents you from playing one game or the other. If you like Quake 3 Arena, by all rights turn up your speakers, dim the lights and play until 4am. If you like UT (any incarnation) then play it with all the maps and mutators and add-ons.

Is it worth it to constantly compare and contrast with the ultimate goal being the declaration of a "winner"? For me it isn't.

I still have many games on my hard drive.

Duke3d, Doom2, Quake, Quake2, Q3A, Unreal Tournament, etc.. The beauty of being digital is you can go back and have fun with these at any time. There's no compelling reason to throw any of them out, and provided your hardware is running fine, you can play these for many years.

I look at gaming like collecting art. You may not like everything, but the work put into these games warrants them being in the collection, regardless. These are little compressed jewels of hundreds of man hours deserved to be played and appreciated.

So, one over the other, one compared to the other....there's no POINT to it.

Just play, and have fun.

Wanting "realistic" weapons in a game makes as much sense as expecting arcade behavior when driving in your car.
#4 by Ashiran
2002-09-18 14:14:23
#3 by Desiato
So, one over the other, one compared to the other....there's no POINT to it.

So what you are saying is.... fanbois are stupid?

Yes they are!

Online gaming? Frustration commences.
#5 by Fallon
2002-09-18 14:16:29
http://www.fagnews.com
UT2k3 = Best of UT plus Best of Q3A.

There.

"Will Wright, creator of The Sims, is 98% carbon and 2% plaster."
#6 by deadlock
2002-09-18 14:21:54
http://www.deadlocked.org/
Desiatio:

that's all very well, but would you please keep the noise down low?

If he's so smart, then how come he's dead?
#7 by Ashiran
2002-09-18 14:32:05
UT2k3 = Best of UT plus Best of Q3A.

I agree.

There.

Online gaming? Frustration commences.
#8 by Darkseid-D
2002-09-18 14:44:35
rogerboal@hotmail.com
how strange, I was under the impression that Digital Extremes made the game and Epic merely took it on to polish it up at the end. Therefore, shouldnt it be DE youre ragging on, for the raw product, not Epic who are merely tightening nuts and applying coats of lacquer as it were.

Flawed arguement.

LOSE LOSE LOSE



Ds

Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
#9 by MCorleone
2002-09-18 14:52:20
NVidia is the new 3dfx and ATI is the new nvidia.  New engine appears to only play well on NVidia boards (but that's most likely because ATI can't write a solid driver).

Creativity is just synthesis without the introspection.  - John Carmack
#10 by Duality
2002-09-18 15:04:50
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
I got yer tightened nuts right here!! *grabs wrench*

UT2k3 can't possibly be Quake 3.  Because I did not like Quake 3.  Thus it is not Quake 3.

But really, I don't understand the idea that it looks like Q3:A.  Q3:A inundated me with these bright, vibrant colors.  While UT2k3 certainly does not look washed out, the colors are subtle and I don't look like I'm watching this moving splatter of colored lighting on my screen.

Otherwise I think yer all smokin' crack when you say UT2k3 is just like Q3.

#11 by Greg
2002-09-18 15:19:51
Duality, its a FPS, so it must be like Q3A.

Duh!

Who is driving?! Oh my god, bear is driving! How can that be?
#12 by MCorleone
2002-09-18 15:26:57
It's more like Wolf3d, actually.  That whole "start with a pistol" thing is tired and cliche.

Creativity is just synthesis without the introspection.  - John Carmack
#13 by Marsh Davies
2002-09-18 15:59:09
www.verbalchilli.com
It only looks like Q3 because the Unreal engine finally can compete with high poly curvy surfaces and funky texture effects.

#14 by Marsh Davies
2002-09-18 16:00:32
www.verbalchilli.com
Oh and Flash MX is godlike.

#15 by LPMiller
2002-09-18 16:08:36
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
I don't think it looks a damn think like quake. Unreal engine games always look brighter and happier to me than quake. And I don't really see it as being all that much faster than the old UT, just more cartoony, which is fine.

Now gimmie a ripper mod, dammit!

I believe I can fly......urk.
#16 by LPMiller
2002-09-18 16:09:06
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
I mean, if you can't get a headshot on yourself once in a while...I mean, fuck man.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#17 by Fugazi(werking)
2002-09-18 16:20:33
I like the game. I don't care what other game influenced its gameplay design. It's moot to me.

"Good health" is merely the slowest rate at which one can die.
#18 by Chunkstyle
2002-09-18 16:27:01
Exactly.  Designers should take whatever influences they can if they improve the game.

And Warren, you guys should really be commended.  Excellent job, excellent demo.  Even if it does prove that I suck badly.
#19 by Hugin
2002-09-18 16:49:34
lmccain@nber.org
It works fine on my ATI card.  Now, I have a crappy old ATI card, so my overall framerates are low.  But it still looks gorgeous, as far as I can tell all the effects work, there are no graphical tears, no weird lockups or error messages.  There's one rendering/texturing error I get when looking at the moving shadows cast on the floor by the spinning fanblades in Asbestos, the "fanblades" dissolve for a second into a mesh of tiny black triangles, but it's minor and goes away as soon as you move (you have to sit still in front of the fans for it to show up, and it doesn't always occur anyway).
#20 by CheesyPoof
2002-09-18 16:53:29
The only thing that felt funny about UT2k3 when I started playing was that it felt like I was a 2 foot tall midget, but I got used to it.

The triangles over your teammates heads are the only Quake3y thing about the game that I notice.  Maybe other on-line games have done that too, but I don't play on-line much anymore.
#21 by Ergo
2002-09-18 17:12:43
It has graphics, so it reminds me of Pong.

Disgruntled Keeper of The List.

DVDs
#22 by UncleJeet
2002-09-18 17:24:18
I didn't really construct an argument, so there isn't really one there to be "flawed" by saying Epic instead of Digital Extremes....INTERESTING BLAHBLAH CAPS ARE COOL.

  Anywho, the only mode I find worth playing is bombing run, and then only with low grav and instagib on.  The rest of UT is more of the same, with too much Quake, and I find it repetitive, trite, boring, and excessively jerk-on-the-unused-penii of the severely geek with the over the top cartoony models, weapon effects, announcer voice over, "sport type feel" etc...

  Hey!  I don't like football, baby - but have you should watch me play a mean game of Bombing Run on the PC!  I r0x0rs!

*sigh*

loseR loseR loseR

Tiptoe through the tulips....

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#23 by UncleJeet
2002-09-18 17:26:18
If you haven't noticed the Quake elements, apart from the size and look of the weapons models, the character models, the level design (especially the outdoor level), the sound effects, the weapon effects, blah blah blah, then you are a silly and stupid person, and it is pointless to debate it with you.

I'd rather be a hammer than a nail....

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#24 by m0nty
2002-09-18 17:28:43
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
JEET FUMBLED
#25 by Charles
2002-09-18 17:30:56
www.bluh.org
My problem with UT2k3 is that the default weapon is fucking useless.  In UT, the enforcer was as viable a weapon as anything else.  

UT2k3 became a hunt for the rocket launcher, just like quake.  I don't like that.  I liked the fact that weapons were balanced and their power only varied for the situation with which you used them in.  But there wasn't really one that was inherently better than the rest.  But in UT2k3, the weapons are like quake, with a few just being obviously better than the rest, and the others being just something to tide you over until you can switch to the rocket launcher.

Bleh.

"'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
#26 by Bailey
2002-09-18 17:33:03
This topic deserves little more than death and mockery.

It's hard for me to grip both the mouse, keyboard, and shamrock shake all at once.
#27 by Neale
2002-09-18 17:33:11
neale@pimurho.co.uk www.pimurho.co.uk
I've just been reading the level design docs - I love the way it's all done with static meshes now. W00t!

signatures are, as I've stated, for perverts
#28 by Charles
2002-09-18 17:33:32
www.bluh.org
Oh, and the announcer makes me want to kill myself.  I won't be playing the game unless there is an option to turn just the announcer off.

"'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
#29 by LPMiller
2002-09-18 17:34:09
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
you haven't played enough...the rocket launcher is NOT the end all to beat all weapon in UT2K3.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#30 by Charles
2002-09-18 17:34:22
www.bluh.org
Or better yet, put the other announcer back in.  They had a female announcer before that kicked ass.

"'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
#31 by Bailey
2002-09-18 17:34:43
I'm sure the threat of not having Nova to kick around will have Epic and DE scurrying to comply to your wishes, master.

It's hard for me to grip both the mouse, keyboard, and shamrock shake all at once.
#32 by LPMiller
2002-09-18 17:35:34
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Well, I'm not playing Deus Ex unless they add an announcer.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#33 by Charles
2002-09-18 17:36:49
www.bluh.org
Yes yes, it's not the most powerful.  There are two or three that are noticeably more powerful than the rest though.  In UT, every weapon was effective.  In UT2k3, half the weapons aren't.

"'Halo 2' is a lot like 'Halo', only it's 'Halo' on fire, going 130 miles per hour through a hospital zone, being chased by helicopters and ninjas," explained Jason Jones, the head of Bungie Studios, "and the ninjas are all on fire, too."
#34 by LPMiller
2002-09-18 17:40:12
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Embrace change.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#35 by m0nty
2002-09-18 17:40:58
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
UNATCO TEAM IS TEH WINNAR!
#36 by Hugin
2002-09-18 17:43:03
lmccain@nber.org
I find the rocket launcher to be probably de-powered  from the original UT more than any other weapon in the game (aside from the default rifle which I agree is disappointingly useless).  Moreover, it's hardly the weapon I find myself trying to find the most, the "apex" weapon.  So far, for me at least, that would be the flak cannon (also depowered a bit, but still love), the lightning gun, or the link cannon, which I may be wrong but somehow feels more powerful than the old...green ball/beam shooty thing from UT.

The only  UT2k3 weapon I truly dislike is the default rifle, no, the grenades don't compensate sufficiently.

I don't like the "well it's the default weapon you're supposed to want to dump it as soon as possible." defense.  I was perfectly happy to keep the Enforcer in the original game, even a single Enforcer, let alone the double. I'm a bit disappointed with the minigun, but I haven't experimented much with the alt fire, supposedly it has explosive rounds.
#37 by Caryn
2002-09-18 17:46:15
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
I'm so used to Quake-style play that I constantly forget there's an alt-fire. There've been times on butter when I've been killed with something and thought, "WTF?! Where did they get that weapon?! Grenades?! I haven't seen a Grenade Launcher yet!!" Then the obvious hits me.

My favorite weapon is the bio rifle. Like Warren says, in the right hands it's pretty deadly. I was having a blast defending the base on Citadel last night with it.

"Thus the fridge contains the possibilities of no beers and some beers existing in simultaneous superposition!"
#38 by Squeaky
2002-09-18 17:52:14
The goop gun feels overpowered to me. It's a good thing that it eats up ammo like popcorn.

#39 by Your Friend
2002-09-18 17:53:52
If anyone wants to argue that UT2k3 is just too much "more of the same" FPS action that we've been playing online since 1996, I'll argue along-side witht them against these infidel hordes who are playing and boostering the UT2k3 demo.

If anyone wants to argue that "UT2k3 is ripping off Quake3", well you're a fucking idiot and you really are just making a serious attempt at a variation of the "all games are Pong" argument.

...

And the argument that games are starting to look alike because they are all designed to run on nvidia hardware is just one of the silliest things I've ever heard.  Yes, there is some truth to the oft-cited issue that OpenGL drivers tend to be optimized for Quake-engine games, but how surprising is that? How many OpenGL-only renderering engines are used in PC games?  

On the looks issue though, Epic and anyone else is free to make their game look however they want within the confines of hardware polygon and texture fillrate limits.  They have the same 32 bits of color to work with as anyone else.  Nothing in the card is going to thunk their data to 'look like' other games.  And the future holds even greater things as all card manufacturers, including nvidia, move away from a fixed-function 3D pipeline.
#40 by UncleJeet
2002-09-18 17:56:14
Don't say that UT2k3 is the best of UT and the best of Quake, then cry about the default weapon being useless.  UT's enforcer was severely underrated, and a highly effective weapon in the game, especially dual enforcers - but Quake 3 had a machine gun.  UT2k3 simply has to have one, too!  Blah.

Somebody's watching me....CAN'T GET NO PRIVACY!

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#41 by Your Friend
2002-09-18 17:58:59

But in UT2k3, the weapons are like quake, with a few just being obviously better than the rest, and the others being just something to tide you over until you can switch to the rocket launcher.


I agree with this.  I wouldn't quite say the weapons are 'like Quake' but more that they are like most 'non-realistic' FPS games, including the Quake engine games, minus Quake 2 which had a great weapon balance that had every weapon being deadly within certain situations (except for the standard blaster which was so useless you might as well have started empty-handed).
#42 by UncleJeet
2002-09-18 17:59:03
Friend, Once Upon A Time You Were Stupid....Then You Just Kept Getting Worse

  Clearly, I'm not saying "Unreal Tournament 2003 ripped off Quake.  Clearly, I said UT's gameplay, rules, and whatnot are all still intact, and by definition, are very different from Quake.

  However, what I did say, and if you read sometimes instead of try and be the hippiest troll on the block, was the everything on the asthetic and artistic side of the coin is Quake 3 through and through.  Next time I'll spell it out just for you, and probably link to a few color slides....now where'd I put that laser pointer....

I have a miniature secret camera....

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#43 by Your Friend
2002-09-18 18:03:51
Also I'd like to announce that Quake 2 is the greatest FPS game ever created.  Better than Quake 1, Quake 3, UT, Unreal, UT2k3 (if the demo is a good indication of the retail), CS, JK2, RTCW, yes even Doom 1 & 2...better even than MidiMaze/Faceball2k.

If Quake 4 manages to come even close to the Quake 2 feel with modern engine enhancements...spontaneous pants jizzing will ensue for Your Friend.
#44 by Ergo
2002-09-18 18:08:51
Q2 was a fantastic multiplayer game, I'll agree. For me, Half-Life is king of single player, however.

Disgruntled Keeper of The List.

DVDs
#45 by Your Friend
2002-09-18 18:11:42
Jeet, I never bothered to read your topic nor was I responding to it specifically (did you see me address you by name anywhere above?).  Plenty of other folks here and on the net in general are making the case that even in terms of gameplay "UT2k3 rips off Quake 3".  

These are the people I am addressing.  

And even if you limit the discussion to aesthetics (who's stupid now, misspelling boy?) and artistic issues, UT2k3 still isn't a Quake 3 "rip-off" any more than its a Tribes or Halo "rip-off".
#46 by Your Friend
2002-09-18 18:14:08
Ergo,

  You're right, I should have mentioned I was talking about multiplayer (like most FPS games, I never finished Quake2 in SP).  And we agree on Half-Life in the single-player space.  See, we're not so different, you and I...  Well OK, maybe we are.
#47 by AnalFissure
2002-09-18 18:14:08
As Marsh said, I suspect a lot of these Q3 comparisons stem from the fact that the maps are no longer just flimsy cardboard boxes with lush textures. Player models aren't skinny little meshes skating along the ground anymore, either. And maybe it's just me, but the whole thing feels a bit more solid -- something I always associated with the Quake games.

Those three things (or the lack of them in previous incarnations of Unreal) were what distinguished UT from Q3, at least in my eyes.

Now that UT2003 has met and surpassed Q3 in many, if not all of those areas, the only thing I'm left with to tell the two games apart is the gameplay itself: Something that's always been as similar as, say, two CTF mods for the same game. eg. Threewave vs. Thunderwalker.

Then there's the whole thing about both games being, not only first-person shooters, but exactly similar in scope (the online dm/offline dm with bots thing), and both games sharing many of the same weapons. If ever there were two games worthy of comparison, UT/Quake would be the ones.
#48 by Darkseid-D
2002-09-18 18:16:45
rogerboal@hotmail.com
must get on to butter with crash and demonstrate what Hammer & Anvil defences look like

even if Ill have a 450 ping, I still killed people in BF1942 :)

(which is much love, even though Ive advanced to the point where its fun to fly upside down under the bridges on the wake island demo)

Ds

Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
#49 by Desiato
2002-09-18 18:16:52
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
Search for "announce" in the user.ini and make the flag value "false".

This will turn off the announcements, except for goals and round countdowns.

I tried it, but turned it back on - I didn't realize how useful it was to know if someone had dropped the ball, without having to look up at the top "Ball Status" display. I could just shift direction in case of a fumble, or better yet - translocate like a bat out of hell towards the center upon hearing "Ball Reset".

I'm still grooving on Bombing Run, but people have started to adapt and my easy goal days are numbered. Especially with actual defenders at the enemy base.

Wanting "realistic" weapons in a game makes as much sense as expecting arcade behavior when driving in your car.
#50 by m0nty
2002-09-18 18:23:51
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
YF disagrees with me? I must be right!
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