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Crazy Co-Op Cop-Outs!
August 20th 2002, 20:52 CEST by Fallon

Back in the days of DooM, co-op was easy to do. Few scripted events, little narrative, basic gameplay - yup, co-op was good. But what's the deal with people whining over the thing so damn much when it's not going to be in a forthcoming shooter?

There's a DooM III co-op petition, numerous Duke Forever flames have been on Shacknews since it won't have co-op either - virtually any FPS out there has a small band of idiots who will boycott it unless they can play with their buddies.

The same arguments are presented - tight scripting and story makes it cumbersome to implement. A typical post-Half-Life shooter would have to be designed from the start for multiple players, and after all, isn't a teamplay mode going to be more fun than shooting AI anyway?

Is co-op relevant anymore, or does it get in the way of a strong narrative and single player experience? More to the point, does anyone over the age of 15 actually miss it so much it'd sway their opinion on whether to buy a game?
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Home » Topic: Crazy Co-Op Cop-Outs!

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#1 by jjz
2002-08-20 20:53:34
No.
#2 by Fugazi(werking)
2002-08-20 20:55:30
Who is responsible for this?

"Good health" is merely the slowest rate at which one can die.
#3 by Shadarr
2002-08-20 21:00:33
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
I usually play co-op in multiplayer RTSs, but that's the extent of it.  The whole multi-singleplayer experience just doesn't excite me.  I'm sure it would be fun to play Baldurs Gate or something with a party of actual serious roleplayers, but I don't know those kind of people (by choice).  The thing about single player games is you can do it whenever you want, save part way through, do other stuff, come back... if you try to do it with someone else (who has a life) it becomes a scheduling nightmare.  I have enough trouble finding a night every week or two to play multiplayer with two friends.
#4 by Greg
2002-08-20 21:02:08
Doom 3 will have co-op.

Who is driving car?! Oh my god, bear is driving car! How can that be?
#5 by Leslie Nassar
2002-08-20 21:02:29
http://departmentofinternets.com
i propose a petition demanding that people at least pretend to do a little research before submitting a topic.

;-)
#6 by Leslie Nassar
2002-08-20 21:03:43
http://departmentofinternets.com
and another petition calling for those who voted yes for this topic to be herded into space barges and sent to the sun.

;-)
#7 by Leslie Nassar
2002-08-20 21:03:55
http://departmentofinternets.com
yes, the sun!

;-)
#8 by Neale
2002-08-20 21:06:50
neale@pimurho.co.uk www.pimurho.co.uk
Greg:

Doom 3 will have co-op.


according to what source?

signatures are, as I've stated, for perverts
#9 by Bailey
2002-08-20 21:08:05
Teh Carmack.

Alcohol is clearly involved here.
#10 by Matthew Gallant
2002-08-20 21:08:33
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
John Carmack.

"Is the internet making people less intelligent?"
"You mean like how video cameras cause thrown objects to hit men in the crotch?"
#11 by "Anonymous"
2002-08-20 21:09:35
isn't a teamplay mode going to be more fun than shooting AI anyway?


Good point, let's get rid of all AI based game modes...'cause it's not as fun as playing against a real person.

Is co-op relevant anymore, or does it get in the way of a strong narrative and single player experience?


Co-op mode is absolutely relevant.  ex: the best way to play Halo is in split-screen co-op mode

More to the point, does anyone over the age of 15 actually miss it so much it'd sway their opinion on whether to buy a game?


I wouldn't refuse to buy a game for not having co-op mode, but I would be encouraged to buy a game for having it.  Just because games aren't currently being produced with this mode of play doesn't mean that it's obsolete.  
Consider, most games consist of more than just AI that meander around like semi retarded speed bumps with slingshots. (Or at least they attempt more than that.)  So, if a single player map is designed to challenge a player and force them to use strategy, then in co-op mode the level should be more of the same, with communication and team work thrown in to the mix.
With the creation of DoomIII, expect to hear more from consumers about co-op mode.  Why? Because when we think back on the Doom series we're reminded of how fun co-op was...and now we're wondering where it went.
#12 by Your Friend
2002-08-20 21:13:21
John Carmack?  What does that jerkoff know about Doom 3?  Isn't he off programming PDA games now after the huge failure of his company Ionsphere?  Quitting Activision was the worst move that jackass ever made!!
#13 by Bailey
2002-08-20 21:17:41
You mean Romero?

Alcohol is clearly involved here.
#14 by Desiato
2002-08-20 21:17:54
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
Initiate public humiliation.

Oh boy.

"When you have a job like me, you'll miss every summer" - H.S.
#15 by Creole Ned
2002-08-20 21:22:10
Co-op is fun, if done right. It's not a deal-breaker if left out, although I doubt I would have played all the way through either Serious Sam game or Diablo II if co-op hadn't been there.

"I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
#16 by Bailey
2002-08-20 21:23:36
I pity the fool who played all the way through Serious Sam.

I pity me.

Nothing beats a forum comedian like this tire iron! *BONK* *CRACK* OW OW!
#17 by Leslie Nassar
2002-08-20 21:23:48
http://departmentofinternets.com
it's a twap!  don't fall for it... too late.

;-)
#18 by Your Friend
2002-08-20 21:28:21
Cue Gap Ad music.


This is toooo easy!
#19 by bago
2002-08-20 21:29:27
manga_Rando@hotmail.com
Co-op: see Halo

iamelectro
#20 by LPMiller
2002-08-20 21:32:50
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Why?

I believe I can fly......urk.
#21 by Matthew Gallant
2002-08-20 21:36:50
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
I've started a petition to have fat, bald zombies in Doom 3. If anyone is interested, I'll post a link.

"Is the internet making people less intelligent?"
"You mean like how video cameras cause thrown objects to hit men in the crotch?"
#22 by Greg
2002-08-20 21:41:31
I'll sign it if you add to your petition a request to make the game take place in Las Vegas.

Who is driving car?! Oh my god, bear is driving car! How can that be?
#23 by Matt Perkins
2002-08-20 21:44:00
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
Can we get a petition for killing?  I heard we weren't going to be able to kill things in Doom3.

This post made sense in my head.
#24 by Ergo
2002-08-20 21:48:11
But will it have Bullet-Time (tm)?

"Brian, there's a message in my Alpha Bits! It says 'OOOOOOO'!"
"Peter, those are Cheerios."
-The Family Guy
#25 by Phayyde
2002-08-20 21:51:13
Coop is not computationally difficult.  There are no intensive problems inherent to coop.

Coop is second banana to deathmatch and therefore it always suffered first when it came time to make tough scheduling decisions.  Also, it takes more time to test coop than DM.

Beat to fit, paint to match.
#26 by Max
2002-08-20 21:51:48
http://massivebraincase.org/
I've started a petition to have all nutjobs who start online petitions herded onto Leslie's space barges prior to launch, and then be housed in a special section of the barges in which "Giant Construction Equipment For Kids" is showing repeatedly until the sundive.

I'm a mushroom-cloud-laying motherfucker, motherfucker! Everytime my fingers touch brain I'm Superfly TNT, I'm the Guns of the Navarone.
#27 by chris
2002-08-20 22:00:48
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Err... excuse me? When did Carmack say Doom3 would have co-op?

He said the multiplayer would be 2-4 players, no late-entry (everyone joins at once). Newsflash for those who still don't get it: That means the deathmatch.

id's official stance on co-op singleplayer remains, to the best of my knowledge, "not unless someone puts it in with a mod."

-chris
#28 by Bailey
2002-08-20 22:04:11
I heard he said that at Quakecon.

Nothing beats a forum comedian like this tire iron! *BONK* *CRACK* OW OW!
#29 by HoseWater
2002-08-20 22:05:00
barneyque@hotmail.com
So like, I've got an idea to do a co-op mod for doom3, all I need is a few coders, some artsy-fartsy types, some level makers, maybe some female tester types with big ones, a few animators, and I think I will do some sounds, but a sound guy too.  Oh, and if you can donate me a computer to work on it, that would help you get on the team, this is going to kick ass, and will include realistic weapons. Just send some sample shit to my roxxors aol address and see if you can make the cut.
#30 by Fugazi(werking)
2002-08-20 22:05:04
So no co-op in Doom 3 then?

Bummer.

"Good health" is merely the slowest rate at which one can die.
#31 by chris
2002-08-20 22:06:54
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Bailey -

I have no recollection of him saying that Doom3 would have co-op. I can go over the tapes again... but I went through them probably five times already, in the process of writing my article.

I know that a *lot* of people could not believe that he meant deathmatch would be 4-player max, peer-to-peer, and assumed he was talking about some kind of co-op mode. But they're incorrect.

-chris
#32 by Bailey
2002-08-20 22:09:35
Look chris, I heard it from some guy, and as far as I can determine, you're some guy too, so I'd say your "opinions" or "facts on tape" or whatever of what the Carmack said are out of phase with the original guy's, and therein, cancel each other out.

Then, I decide I would enjoy co-op, so I insist Carmack said it.

Nothing beats a forum comedian like this tire iron! *BONK* *CRACK* OW OW!
#33 by Shadarr
2002-08-20 22:11:31
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
Hosewater,  that's seriously been done to death.  At least mix it up a bit, put a new punch line in or something.
#34 by Foodbunny
2002-08-20 22:13:31
foodbunny@attbi.com http://www.foodbunny.com
Chris, I remember fairly clearly during the Doom presentation someone talking about going through the game with your friends and how communication would be important because there would be multiple objectives.  Carmack might not have said it but it was said and there was a big reaction to it.

Come back!  You're not a freak, you're just stupid!
#35 by "fyrewolf"
2002-08-20 22:14:29
2-4 players for deathmatch?  You've got to be kidding.  He's gotta be talking about either co-op or some sort of serverless (all peer-to-peer) deathmatch if he said only 2-4 players with everyone joining at the beginning.  Or maybe he was talking about the X-box split-screen deathmatch.
#36 by Matthew Gallant
2002-08-20 22:15:37
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
Kidding? Or kyddyng?

"Is the internet making people less intelligent?"
"You mean like how video cameras cause thrown objects to hit men in the crotch?"
#37 by Foodbunny
2002-08-20 22:16:27
foodbunny@attbi.com http://www.foodbunny.com
He said there would be an expansion pack coming out after Doom 3 that would contain all the multiplayer goodness you could ever want and all the different modes.

Come back!  You're not a freak, you're just stupid!
#38 by Leslie Nassar
2002-08-20 22:17:16
http://departmentofinternets.com
Or maybe he secretly loves petitions... like he gets off by rubbing them all over his naked, genius body.

;-)
#39 by Phayyde
2002-08-20 22:20:22
No. kyyding.

Beat to fit, paint to match.
#40 by Ergo
2002-08-20 22:22:34
He also said that it would be released in 5 delicious flavors.

"Brian, there's a message in my Alpha Bits! It says 'OOOOOOO'!"
"Peter, those are Cheerios."
-The Family Guy
#41 by bago
2002-08-20 22:25:49
manga_Rando@hotmail.com
Hrm, So I get my own little bit of purple doom!

iamelectro
#42 by jjohnsen
2002-08-20 22:28:05
http://www.johnsenclan.com
I thought MAttG said in irc that it would have co-op.  He and Fodbunny were standing next to the 3dRealms staff at the time they heard this from John Carmack if I remember correctly.

No longer must I sweep for you, for I am not your broom.
#43 by Matthew Gallant
2002-08-20 22:37:33
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
My rememberance was that it was one of the questions proposed during the Q&A. He said yes, co-op, and also deatmatch. 4 players max on both. Then what Foodbunny said about increased multiplayer options in an expansion pack.

"Is the internet making people less intelligent?"
"You mean like how video cameras cause thrown objects to hit men in the crotch?"
#44 by HoseWater
2002-08-20 22:37:33
barneyque@hotmail.com
Pffft, everything here has been completely done to death.  Their is no alternate punchline.

I just typed a bit to stay awake.
#45 by Your Friend
2002-08-20 22:38:45
Chris,

Though I have no knowledge of whether Doom3 will have coop or not, to me "no late entry" means co-op a lot more than it means deathmatch.  What would be the point of a no-late entry rule in deathmatch?

Also, Phad said:


There are no intensive problems inherent to coop.


This is untrue.  There's nothing technically difficult about doing co-op, but it introduces a huge host of game design issues (big ones, not just stuff that makes it a little bit harder to test) that don't exist in single player or dm.  If you're just going to make a mindless shooter like Serious Sam, you can ignore all of these issues, but otherwise...
#46 by Shadarr
2002-08-20 22:43:20
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
Nonsense, there's always an alternate punchline.  At the very least you can combine other 'crap favourites to make a crappy gumbo.  Like "I'm looking for a modeller, a mapper, a programmer, and a marketting wizard to create a Cosplay mod for Doom 3.  We will replace all weapons with thrown rocks and a voice yelling "Lightning Bolt!" or "Death!" and the whole thing will be done in voxels."

Seriously, it's not that hard.
#47 by George Broussard
2002-08-20 22:46:07
georgeb@3drealms.com
Co-op is cool.  Just design a game from day one around it and it'll all be cool.
#48 by chris
2002-08-20 22:49:07
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Your Friend -

I guarantee you, he was talking about Deathmatch, not co-op. I've had it confirmed by other developers working with the Doom3 tech (licensees).

Matthew & Foodbunny -

I'm going to go through the audio file again at some point and look for that. I don't think that's what he said, but it is possible. I believe what FoodBunny's referring to, though, was just the part where they were talking about how Doom3 won't be "find key open door" (instead it appears to be "find kiosk, open door")... not that there would be objectives that required multiple people to complete.

-chris
#49 by HoseWater
2002-08-20 22:49:21
barneyque@hotmail.com
Apparently it is.
#50 by chris
2002-08-20 22:53:40
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Fyrewolf -

I'm not kidding, and no, he wasn't talking about X-Box or some special mode. Let me repeat it, just to be clear:

As of right now, the planned deathmatch experience for Doom3, on the PC, is 2-4 players, peer-to-peer. Much like the original Doom. Carmack specifically stated that they're not concentrating at all on the multiplayer. They're just throwing it in for the hell of it. Doom3 is a single-player game. He then said that at some point in the future there will likely be an expansion (a la quakeworld) or standalone product (a la team arena) that gives more multiplayer functionality... likely at the cost of some graphics quality.

Simply put, the doom3 engine in its current incarnation is not built to handle any more than that, both from a framerate standard, and a speed standard (you move much more slowly in doom3 than you do in any previous deathmatch game).

Word from other id members is that this is not 100% set in stone... but what Carmack meant is what I have stated above. And as I mentioned, I've confirmed that that is what he meant with other developers.

-chris
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