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T O P I C
The Gamers Doth Protest
June 6th 2000, 21:21 CEST by andy

Gamers... we're a vocal bunch nowadays, aren't we?



You've probably noticed that there have been a lot of protests and petitions online recently, dealing with every issue under the sun.

Going door to door collecting signatures or handing out leaflets is a time-consuming and often expensive business, more often than not achieving absolutely nothing, but with a few lines of text on a web site and a simple CGI script or even just an e-mail form, you can easily collect thousands of names from all over the world.

Not surprisingly, the games community has seen its fair share of protests recently, and they are becoming more common. Here's a quick round-up:

  • Final Unreal Patch calls for Epic to release an update with all of the latest Direct3D, OpenGL, Glide and sound code. The organiser claims: "As Tim Sweeney said, they owe us this patch."

  • Tiberian Dawn Patch Petition asks that Westwood add some new features and gameplay modes. Not really calling for a patch, just a bunch of people wanting some extra stuff for free.

  • Jane's Attack Squadron Petition currently boasts over five thousand virtual signatures from people who want Electronic Arts to continue funding the game that was being developed by Looking Glass Studios. The petition is organised by one of the project's programmers, who claims it is "very close to being complete".

  • Wing Commander Engine Source Code Release Project asks Origin and Electronic Arts to make the Wing Commander source code available for modification by fans.

  • Paul Steed was Id is the protest page from the Dteam development group, which is boycotting all Id Software products until Paul Steed is given his job back. Ridiculously, the site's poll boasts over a hundred thousand votes, with 90% agreeing that Steed should be reinstated.

  • Ultima Online Protest and First UO Protest in a decade are two pages telling of protests in the Ultima Online world which resulted in the protestors being imprisoned, again in the online world. The original protests were about poor customer service from Origin, with characters being deleted and stats corrupted.

Strangely, these protests are becoming more frequent at the same time as dodgy software is becoming more rare.

From my lofty position atop the Mountain of Righteousness, I've been pleased to see that most titles nowadays are released in a decent condition, usually followed up with a small patch to fix compatibility issues and often add some extra content.

So are these protests on the increase because people are sick of shoddy treatment from games companies, or are they just a bunch of spoiled brats who stamp their feet and start crying when they don't get what they want?

C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "Shirow"
2000-06-06 21:23:52
shirow@3dportal.com http://www.halflife.net
First!
God, I'm pathetic.
#2 by "Matthias Worch"
2000-06-06 21:24:38
mworch@legendent.com http://www.langsuyar.com
Thanks. You saved me from becoming pathetic :P
#3 by "Shirow"
2000-06-06 21:25:51
shirow@3dportal.com http://www.halflife.net
A pleasure sir! It's my job to save people from becoming morons by typing FIRST POST!

At least, thats my excuse.
#4 by "Desiato"
2000-06-06 21:26:48
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com
Perhaps your previous statement about the ease of setup and collection of "signatures" is the main reason that these are launched.

What I would like to see is a study on whether these methods are effective. I mean -- 5,000 sigs look great for a petition, but they don't mean squat unless some actual action is taken as a result.

For example....the whole id thing....I highly doubt any form of protest will reverse what has already been done.

And as for getting stuff for free....well, that is all up to the programmers, isn't it? (At least they're the ones who would have to do the extra work.)

Also -- perhaps because of the web these protests are more visible due to the interconnected nature of gaming fan/news sites.


Desiato
#5 by "Shirow"
2000-06-06 21:28:38
shirow@3dportal.com http://www.halflife.net
Yeah, does anyone know of any online protests that have actually *acheived* anything?

In the case of the Ultima Online protests, OSI have agreed to compensate the players (although they haven't said in what way yet... so don't get your hopes up TOO soon, UO players), although they made it clear this was 'totally unrelated to the protest.'

I find this amusing, when a week before they were completely ignoring all the UO people complaining about the poor service and downtime, or telling them basically to 'live with it'

;)
#6 by "Jafd"
2000-06-06 21:32:41
jafd@whatthefuck.com http://www.therainforestsite.com/
If only PC had been up when UIX was released. My mind staggers under the imaginings. Then you'd hear some FUCKING VOCAL gamers. :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#7 by "Shirow"
2000-06-06 21:37:00
shirow@3dportal.com http://www.halflife.net
Quite.. I *was* looking forward to Ultima Online 2 until I realised the last few Ultima games (Ultima Online, Ultima 9) have been the most buggy, godawful pieces of junk (with every patch issued to UO, one bug is fixed, and two are created)
#8 by "Billy Saw Hurock"
2000-06-06 21:42:38
billysawhurock@hotmail.com http://www.bloweduprealgood.com
The reason(s) programmers release games in such shoddy shape could be

a) They were abused as children
b) They ate lead paint chips as kids
c) Their wife abused them
d) They have a small winkie
e) They believe OJ was innocent
f) Bitterness due to SOAP being cancelled
g) Lives in an alternate dimension
h) Have only one arm, and it's huge!
i) Don't know wrong from wrong
j) Flunked home economics, still crys about it
k) Mistreats the blind kid down the street
l) Keeps dreaming about future SUPERBIKE!
m) Has no idea what fun is
n) Tries to impress ladies with toothpicks
o) Dresses like CliffyB
p) Lives in a van down by the river
q) Thinks Yoda is not only smart, but real!
r) Can't handle the Truth
s) Puts Pauly Shore in same boat as Oliver Reed
t) Too busy looking for lost drool cup
u) Downloading porn took precedence over coding
v) Wants to be in the next Olsen Movie
w) Gargles with Dove Hand Soap
x) Still crying due to Old Yeller being shot
y) Won't accept that Luke & Leia are bro/sis
z) Too busy smelling his own gas.
#9 by "|SnappY|"
2000-06-06 21:46:09
snap@nwlink.com
Maybe it's just that we've become so jaded and expect so much from our own experiences that we like to complain about... well, anything really.

This game sucks, these graphics suck, I wish my joystick wasn't this color/someone should look into that...

We've all got opinions, but what are they really good for?

'No one ever told you that selfishness was wrong...'
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#10 by "Rantage"
2000-06-06 22:06:45
rantage@hotmail.com http://www.steelmaelstrom.org
Wastes of time.  Need I remind anybody of the <A HREF="http://grc.quake2.com/">Green Ribbon Campaign</A>?
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#11 by "None-1a"
2000-06-06 22:10:10
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
Final Unreal Patch - promised so the protest is valid.

Tiberian Dawn -spoiled brats, the game wasn't what I wanted boo-hoo, and I'm a bit on the dim side.

Jane's Attack squadron - People want the game, maybe they should buy more flight sims so it's a valid project.

Wing Commander Engine Srouce Code - spoiled brats, id releaes there old srouces code so every one should, right?

Paul Steed was id - Um, I don't see a resons to protest here, he'll find a nother job (hopfully one that he doesn't have as many problems at) and id will find another modeler that they can work with better.

Ultima Online - The games still buggy as crap, and we're to dim to move to Everquest.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#12 by "Dogbert"
2000-06-06 22:18:34
glock_ready@hotmail.com
Reason enough to silence free-speech and other basic civil liverties.

  -Cry me a river liberals.
#13 by "Andy"
2000-06-06 22:18:46
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#11</b>, None-1a:
<QUOTE>
Ultima Online - The games still buggy as crap, and we're to dim to move to Everquest.
</QUOTE>
I don't think that's fair. They bought the game, they want to play it.

Besides, the protests were from people who were happy with the game but unhappy that their character stats had been screwed up.
#14 by "Andy"
2000-06-06 22:20:16
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#12</b>, Dogbert - then you wouldn't object to your post being deleted?
#15 by "Duality"
2000-06-06 22:21:44
Duality@neo-tokyo.org http://www.uramunch.com/
<QUOTE>So are these protests on the increase because people are sick of shoddy treatment from games companies, or are they just a bunch of spoiled brats who stamp their feet and start crying when they don't get what they want?</QUOTE>
In some instances, I'm leaning toward the latter.  

I don't know that a patch for Unreal is all that necessary, I never did play it multiplayer, so its always been just fine for me.  

The Jane petition is one that should be signed, it had looked to be a great game, and still does if the project can be finished.

I'm not big on mod / port / programming scenes, so I'm not sure, but do many companies ever release the source for the engines?  With the exception of id / Raven, I've not heard it.

Paul Steed is not id ... I don't know what in the world DTeam was thinking when they said that.  Of course it was unfair and unjust, but from rumors I've heard, he was at least considering leaving anyway.

And who cares bout UO ... they've always been bitchin bout that. :P

I think the whole patchware debacle of the last gen of games sort of gave the mass community the mentality that all you have to do is scream frequently enough and the dev will bend over backwards and kiss your ass for peanuts.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#16 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-06-06 22:45:25
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
The Internet makes this more doable, and it's not that games are buggier (they're not), it's a growing sense of gamer entitlement, that because Company A does this, all other companies are automatically beholden to do the same.
#17 by "Seth Krieg"
2000-06-06 23:24:25
seth@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<quote>Final Unreal Patch - promised so the protest is valid.
</quote>
Well, if this is the case - remember when GreenMarine made that dumbass remark about 'Epic doesn't owe it to anyone to support their product.'

That was classic. Does anyone still have that quote?
#18 by "Shirow"
2000-06-06 23:30:03
shirow@3dportal.com http://www.halflife.net
And who cares bout UO ... they've always been bitchin bout that. :P


So that makes it OK? Imagine you buy Half-Life, and everytime you get halfway through the game, it deletes your savegame and makes you start again. Would this be OK, just because it happened all the time?
#19 by "Andy"
2000-06-06 23:30:40
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#17</b>, Seth Krieg:
<QUOTE>
That was classic. Does anyone still have that quote?
</QUOTE>
Oooh I'm sure I could find it somewhere...
#20 by "unDuLe"
2000-06-06 23:45:02
unDule@tampabay.rr.com http://www.planetunreal.com/undulation
Though it was indeed promised, a final unreal patch is pretty unlikely -- I knew that when Sweeney first said it.

It would be like id patching quake2 again -- the work required has no real payoff. And geesh, Unreal works fine with 224 or 225a etc.

Also, I ran today into a petition being formed to um, let me dig it up:

<i>[Important: Support Unreal II]

If you think that Unreal II should be in the spirit of Unreal, please co sign
our open letter adressed to Epic and Legend, and spread the word!
We need your signature.

<a href= http://mythical.ifrance.com/mythical/letter.html>The letter </a>
<a href=" http://mythical.ifrance.com/mythical/>The signatures </a></i>
#21 by "unDuLe"
2000-06-06 23:46:17
unDule@tampabay.rr.com http://www.planetunreal.com/undulation
um, that's odd
don't know what happened to my post there. Ulp.
#22 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-06-07 00:08:21
piramida@usa.net http://www.agsm.net
Anyone else thinks that the DTeam petition uses a poll image which is like, 100% made up?

A. I'm pretty sure they don't get this number of hits  
B. That's an image, no links to an actual poll or poll results
C. The numbers are ridiculous

Looks like a complete joke.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#23 by "Shirow"
2000-06-07 00:13:51
shirow@3dportal.com http://www.halflife.net
Anyone who says Paul Steed IS iD has to be joking anyway.
#24 by "None-1a"
2000-06-07 00:20:55
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#13</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>
I don't think that's fair. They bought the game, they want to play it.

Besides, the protests were from people who were happy with the game but unhappy that their character stats had been screwed up. </QUOTE>

Um, how long has there been unrest in the UO community about some thing, bugs, bad servers, stat problems, etc.. and the players not only bought the game but are also continuing to pay a monthly, stop me if I'm wrong but wouldn't not renewing your account untill the problems are gone be a better protest then protesting from in the game. With the new level of compatision it's just plane stupid to continue to support a product via monthly fee's that after all this time is still having problems. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#25 by "Shirow"
2000-06-07 00:36:23
shirow@3dportal.com http://www.halflife.net
I don't know. I have a UO account, and although it has problems it's still a very immersive and fun game. WITHOUT the problems, I'd enjoy it a hell of a lot more - thats what the protests were about.
#26 by "Andy"
2000-06-07 00:44:47
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#22</b>, PiRaMidA:
<QUOTE>
Anyone else thinks that the DTeam petition uses a poll image which is like, 100% made up?
</QUOTE>
Yep, me.

And notice that they're only boycotting <b>future</b> products? Well, the next Id product will be the mission pack, which isn't likely to sell much anyway, and then it's Doom which is probably eighteen months away. It's unlikely that anyone will even remember this protest at Christman 2001, never mind boycott the game.

I'm not saying that they're wrong to do it, I just think a boycott/protest should at least have an attainable goal.
#27 by "Andy"
2000-06-07 00:45:46
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#26</b>, Andy:
<QUOTE>
Christman 2001
</QUOTE>
Christ man, learn to type!
#28 by "Duality"
2000-06-07 00:46:53
Duality@neo-tokyo.org http://www.uramunch.com/
<b>#18</b> Quothe "Shirow" ...
<QUOTE>So that makes it OK? Imagine you buy Half-Life, and everytime you get halfway through the game, it deletes your savegame and makes you start again. Would this be OK, just because it happened all the time? </QUOTE>
Of course its not okay.  But how long have UO players been plagued?  Customers even filed a law suit, and problems still aren't solved ... what more needs to be said?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#29 by "Rantage"
2000-06-07 00:52:04
rantage@hotmail.com http://www.steelmaelstrom.org
<b>#26</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>It's unlikely that anyone will even remember this protest at <B>Christman 2001</B>, never mind boycott the game.
</QUOTE>

Oh man, my ears are still ringing from <B>Christman 2000</B> last week....woo, that group <B>Stryper</B> sure knows how to ROCK!  ;)

Sorry Andy, couldn't resist.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "Jeff"
2000-06-07 01:00:42
jeffmill@bellsouth.net
Next up from the DTeam:

JOHN ROCKER WAS THE BRAVES! BOYCOTT ...

ah well, you get the idea.
#31 by "OldUncleTed"
2000-06-07 01:17:01
RD_postal@hotmail.com
id like to remind those of you who are protesting the protesters that you are......well...i think you get the idea<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#32 by "Duality"
2000-06-07 01:37:38
Duality@neo-tokyo.org http://www.uramunch.com/
<b>#31</b> Quothe "OldUncleTed" ...
<QUOTE>id like to remind those of you who are protesting the protesters that you are......well...i think you get the idea</QUOTE>
I wouldn't so much call it protesting, as just making an observation which will no doubt convert itself into bitching and complaining and finding faults with the protesters.  Finding fault and bitching is what I do best. :P<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#33 by "McGrew"
2000-06-07 01:44:24
mcgrew@famvid.com http://TheFragfest.com
;)
#34 by "Stephanie"
2000-06-07 01:55:19
Stephanie@allgames.com http://www.allgames.com
<b>#32</b> "Duality" wrote...
<QUOTE>#31 Quothe "OldUncleTed" ...

id like to remind those of you who are protesting the protesters that you are......well...i think you get the idea

I wouldn't so much call it protesting, as just making an observation which will no doubt convert itself into bitching and complaining and finding faults with the protesters. Finding fault and bitching is what I do best. :P</QUOTE>

It's silly. Sorry, Dolomite, you know I love ya, but come on...doesn't id have a right to make their own decisions about who they can and can't hire??

We recently had to let some ppl go here, and lemme tell you, I'd smack anyone who dared to argue with me. Fact is, you don't know why we did what we did.

And NOBODY except the people inside id knows why THEY did what they did.

Paul will land on his feet, he's too damn talented not to. Don't insult him with petitions like this.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#35 by "G-Man"
2000-06-07 03:36:19
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
In the Beginning Andy wrote...
<quote>Gamers... we're a vocal bunch nowadays, aren't we?

You've probably noticed that there have been a lot of protests and petitions online recently, dealing with every issue under the sun.</quote>
This has less to do with gamers per se, than it does with basic human nature. Whenever a group of people under the power of others becomes more educated about the nature of that relationship, and/or the divisions between the two groups begin to diminish, the amount of protesting will increase.

There are a great many more examples of protests and other acts of civil disobediance to be found in the world, than there are in the sub-culture of hard-core gaming. This is in part because of the smaller proportional ratio of elites to peasants in gaming. The reason we are seeing an increase in protests in general is because of the nature of the internet, with it's ability to rapidly educate and unify people to a common cause. Communication and logostics are the two great barriers to any successful revolt.

In the past decade the once nearly insurmountable walls between between the gamers and the game developers, have been rapidly crumbling. In the 1970s when you played Pacman you had no real way of knowing who was responsible for the game and in the 1980s knowing that H. Yakasura was the lead programmer for Contra didn't get you very far either. (Special thanks to YOU THE PLAYER!)

Today I not only know that Joe Developer was responsible for XYZ, but I also have his email address on hand, a year's worth of his quasi-personal diary to read, and a forum filled with thousands of people who are likely to feel the same way about XYZ as I do.

To sum up.. duh

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#36 by "Tim Sweeney"
2000-06-07 04:41:49
tim@epicgames.com http://unreal.epicgames.com/
Some of these petitions are really good ideas.

A bunch of gamers saying "we are your customers, and we believe you should do the following to support your product..." is way more effective than randomly slamming companies and products on message boards.  When looking at flames, it can be hard to distinguish good ideas from maniacal rants.  But a petition shows well-thought-out, widespread public suport for a cause.

Game developers who ignore this kind of thing do so at great risk.

The Unreal patch petition is certainly the #1 issue on our radar screen at Epic right now.

No, we're not issuing a response to the petition...after all, the petition wasn't asking us to put out a press release talking about what we're going to do, it's asking us to FINISH AND RELEASE THE DAMN PATCH, so...

-Tim
#37 by "PainKilleR-[CE]"
2000-06-07 04:46:50
painkiller@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com/tftech/
<b>#36</b> "Tim Sweeney" wrote...
<QUOTE>No, we're not issuing a response to the petition...after all, the petition wasn't asking us to put out a press release talking about what we're going to do, it's asking us to FINISH AND RELEASE THE DAMN PATCH, so... </QUOTE>

lol, I like that method, don't talk about the patch until it's done, then we wouldn't have the kind of mess that Valve is having with the upcoming Half-life patch.

-PainKilleR-[CE]
#38 by "Paperchase"
2000-06-07 05:06:47
f
I think Epic should trash the patch and move on to another game. By doing so, it's possible that these people whose lives are so consumed by their precious little game patch idea that they would actually organize an online protest, could actually get an objective perspective of how ridiculous the whole thing is and get their focus back on the concerns of things that really matter...

LIKE HOW BAD IT SUCKS THAT LOOKING GLASS FOLDED! DO YOU REALIZE THAT MEANS THERE WILL BE NO THIEF 3???? WELL, DO YOU??? WHAT IN CAREY'S CORSET WILL WE DO THEN? HUH?????????
#39 by "MCorleone"
2000-06-07 05:08:37
john_st123@hotmail.com
Did anyone else read Mike Wilson's .plan seeking out Paul Steed?  That was truly sad...

Paul, if you're reading this:  Please don't debase yourself by going over there.  I'm sure you could make a really cool KISS model, but please don't.

---

And just out of curiosity:  Does anyone else secretly wish that Blues and Shuga and /. and all of the other mega-sites don't post links here?  Maybe it's just me being elitist, but I really don't want the signal:noise ratio to degrade further...  (imho, signal is still 95% here)
#40 by "MCorleone"
2000-06-07 05:10:06
john_st123@hotmail.com
Clarification:  Links _to_ here.  Not links in their messages...  ;)
#41 by "DooBall"
2000-06-07 05:27:10
dooball@planetshogo.com http://www.dooball.NET
true... true...
#42 by "Matt Firewalker"
2000-06-07 05:36:16
thanatos_dm@hotmail.com http://arena.gameseek.com
<b>#34</b> "Stephanie" wrote...
<QUOTE>And NOBODY except the people inside id knows why THEY did what they did. </QUOTE>
I've been waiting for someone to say that... people are jumping to conclusions all over the place, as if they know enough to make logical conclusions.  Then again, people by nature become irrational after a loss, no matter how trivial the loss.

A single person doesn't make or break a game development team.  Paul doesn't break id software.  Hell, JOHN CARMACK, with all his coding talent, wouldn't break id software.

No one person is good enough to warrant keeping him/her around if he/she's counterproductive to the rest of the team.

   ~Creation<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#43 by "AmbushBug"
2000-06-07 05:59:42
ambushbug@portalofevil.com
<b>#38</b> "Paperchase" wrote...
<QUOTE>I think Epic should trash the patch and move on to another game. By doing so, it's possible that these people whose lives are so consumed by their precious little game patch idea that they would actually organize an online protest, could actually get an objective perspective of how ridiculous the whole thing is and get their focus back on the concerns of things that really matter...</QUOTE>

I actually picked up a copy of Unreal the other day because I'd been itching to replay a couple of the levels and my original CD has this nasty scratch in it.

Anyway the long & the short of it is that I no longer have a Voodoo2 SLI setup and I was pretty dissapointed with the D3D performance on my Matrox G400 Max.

While I can see where your coming from with your "cut your losses & move on" approach there is something to be said for keeping your promises.

-AB<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#44 by "Andy"
2000-06-07 06:08:26
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#42</b>, Matt Firewalker:
<QUOTE>
people by nature become irrational after a loss

[...]

Hell, JOHN CARMACK, with all his coding talent, wouldn't break id software.
</QUOTE>
Now who's being irrational? John Carmack leaves Id, Id doesn't have any engines. Id would be broken.

It's been said many times before: John Carmack *is* Id Software. He's the guy that builds the house, everyone else just puts the furniture in it.
#45 by "Matt Firewalker"
2000-06-07 06:20:25
thanatos_dm@hotmail.com http://arena.gameseek.com
<b>#44</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>John Carmack leaves Id, Id doesn't have any engines. Id would be broken. </QUOTE>

That's assuming John Carmack is the only one that's ever made a 3D engine.  Granted, he makes damn good ones, but <i>other people have made 3D engines on this planet.</i>  id can still hire someone else to do the engine code.  He may not have Carmack's talent, but that doesn't mean the replacement can't make a good 3D engine.

Baseball pitchers throw the ball, but when someone smacks it clear into left field, that pitcher is helpless.  Point: no one man makes a team.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#46 by "None-1a"
2000-06-07 06:28:56
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#37</b> "PainKilleR-[CE]" wrote...
<QUOTE>lol, I like that method, don't talk about the patch until it's done, then we wouldn't have the kind of mess that Valve is having with the upcoming Half-life patch. </QUOTE>

Acctauly from the petision that's been the problem.

<b>#45</b> "Matt Firewalker" wrote...
<QUOTE>Baseball pitchers throw the ball, but when someone smacks it clear into left field, that pitcher is helpless. Point: no one man makes a team.</QUOTE>

Ha yes, but when your star batter leaves the team, and you made more money selling crap with his name on it your F***ed, which is where id (and it's id damn it, just so no one sarts posting id, iD, ID, crap) stands, my assumtion is that there making as much or more money off of carmak created engines as there are there own games (granted it's impossible for me to back that up since the tearms of these agreements can not be disclosed).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#47 by "Matt Firewalker"
2000-06-07 06:34:23
thanatos_dm@hotmail.com http://arena.gameseek.com
<b>#46</b> "None-1a" wrote...
<QUOTE>my assumtion is that there making as much or more money off of carmak created engines as there are there own games </QUOTE>

Again, any other 3D engine talent could make a 3D engine and still license it to people.  Lithtech is licensed to companies.  Lithtech isn't Carmack.  Summary: id can hire a new 3D engine guy and have him write the engine, and still license it, without Carmack.

~Matt F.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "Andy"
2000-06-07 06:38:52
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#46</b>, None-1a:
<QUOTE>
it's id damn it, just so no one sarts posting id, iD, ID, crap
</QUOTE>
Didn't we have this the other day? It's Id. Capital 'I', small 'd'.

1. According to John Carmack, it's Id Software.
2. Copyright notices always refer to Id Software.
3. The company is registered as Id Software.

You'll often see it written as 'id' in plan files, the body of press releases, logos, interviews - pretty much anything - but the correct capitalisation according to the guy who started the company, and according to the name the company is legally registered under, is Id.

So there. Let us not have any more confusion. :)
#49 by "PainKilleR-[CE]"
2000-06-07 06:39:57
painkiller@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com/tftech/
<b>#47</b> "Matt Firewalker" wrote...
<QUOTE>Again, any other 3D engine talent could make a 3D engine and still license it to people. Lithtech is licensed to companies. Lithtech isn't Carmack. Summary: id can hire a new 3D engine guy and have him write the engine, and still license it, without Carmack. </QUOTE>

I highly doubt there as many Lithtech licenses out there as Q2 licenses. I also doubt Lith gets as much money for licensing their engine as id does. The whole point is that id would lose a lot more money/earnings if Carmack left/was fired than if the whole rest of the company left and Carmack had to come up with people to replace them.

-PainKilleR-[CE]
#50 by "Gabe"
2000-06-07 06:44:03
gakruger@hotmail.com
id Software is known for being amongst the technical leaders of the gaming industry. Replacing John Carmack with just some other programmer would be like trading Pedro Martinez for Mark Wohlers (to stick with the baseball). Sure, maybe another engine could be developed, but the odds are that it would not be near the same quality.

If very high quality 3D engines were easy to develop, we would have a ton of them. As it stands we basically have QuakeX and Unreal. Lithtech 2.0 has not appeared in a released game yet, so the jury is out. It has taken them quite a while to get that out the door, and they have surely thrown plenty of resources at it. What happened to Prey? At one point 3D Realms was pretty keen on getting that done. Point being that even established companies with resources and desire have not been successful.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
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