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Doom gloom, so soon?
June 5th 2000, 20:57 CEST by andy

Two stories about death, destruction, and Doom...



If you can forget for a moment that you're l33t and underground then go and have a look at this article on GameSpy: Possibly the worst idea in the history of gaming. Written by legendary game designer Christopher 'shaithis' Buecheler, it points out why a new Doom game is one great big mistake.

It's certainly an unusual article for GameSpy to post, and you do get the nagging feeling that the focus is more on generating controversy than actually discussing the game, especially as it is somewhat out-of-character for the normally mild-mannered and huggable Chris.

GameSpy is usually a very shiny-happy site, but then, if you look at the article masthead you'll see that they're "jammin' keys for a cause" nowadays, so that's nice. What is their "cause", exactly? To stop posting dull advertorials and come up with something juicy that might score a few extra hits?

But I digress...

The other thing I'd like to wave in front of you is Id's press release announcing the new Doom game. (Thanks to Blue for the link.) Guess what, I'm not going to say anything nice about it. Have a look at this quote from the first paragraph...

Employing an entirely new 3-D graphics engine, the still untitled project will showcase id Software's legendary ability to create an over-the-top, story-based single-player experience.

Huh? Story-based? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the one resounding criticism that is always made about Id's games is that they are NOT story-based!

Ah, but look - the first paragraph of the first press release and already we're seeing some tricky wordplay. Notice that it says "legendary ability to create". Sure, they've got the ability to create story-based games, they just never do.

Now seeing as every man and his dog is guessing about Id's internal struggles last week, here's what my fevered brain managed to come up with...

Doom is being made for strictly business reasons, not artistic ones.

Id has two images to think of, those of engine creator and game developer. Three years ago, if you wanted to license an engine you were going to license it from Id or not at all. Two years ago, you could choose between Id and Epic. Now you can choose between Id, Epic, Monolith if you're mad, and half a dozen others.

The Id name was once synonymous with quality 3D games. Now the name on everyone's lips is Valve, with Raven and Epic following on behind, and of course Id is still mixed in there somewhere.

The only thing Id can do now to be top dog again is get up on a chair and shout "WE MADE DOOM!!" and that's exactly what is happening. In the minds of gamers and engine-licensers alike, the Doom brand name will always beat anything that any other company can offer. Id is playing its joker.

This, I expect, is why Kevin Cloud and Adrian Carmack object to the project. They realised that suddenly they were part of a business machine instead of a game development house, and they didn't like it. Paul Steed would have voted for Doom because he spotted the chance to be part of a legend, and that's why the two owner-artists would have fallen out with him big-time.

There is also the horribly cynical possibility that Id has decided to cash in on the controversy surrounding Doom since the Columbine shootings. For this reason alone, a new Doom game will certainly get plenty of mainstream headlines

However, having said all of that, whatever happened behind the scenes and whatever the motive is for making Doom, I'm still going to look forward to it because I'd much rather play a good old-fashioned blaster than one of these newfangled "story" games that most FPS developers are moving towards.

But that press release... ugh. Let's not start all that again, hey Todd?

C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "Jafd"
2000-06-05 21:01:26
jafd@whatthefuck.com http://www.therainforestsite.com/
<quote>Employing an entirely new 3-D graphics engine, the still untitled project will showcase id Software's legendary ability to create an over-the-top, story-based single-player experience.</quote>

This is the thing that really, really, really made me completely give up hope for this game. Clearly the folks at Id are <b>completely</b> out of touch with reality.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#2 by "Bob Aboey"
2000-06-05 21:01:35
*cough*
#3 by "Jokerman"
2000-06-05 21:02:57
simpel

Carmack creates a brilliant engine . They want to get a game out asap . DOOM
#4 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-06-05 21:10:22
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
Gamespy Article: Hah, made you look.

<quote>Doom is being made for strictly business reasons, not artistic ones.</quote>
Well duh. DOOM II was made beacause DOOM sold. Quake II was made because Quake sold. Quake III was made because Quake II and Quake III sold.

The only reason you'd make a sequel is financial. You leverage your brand, lower your marketing costs, blah blah blah.

Well, maybe if you just HAD to tell another story, you might do a sequel for artistic reasons. Yeah, uh-huh.
#5 by "Andy"
2000-06-05 21:15:56
andy@planetcrap.com
LOL!

<b>#4</b>, Steve Bauman:
<QUOTE>
Well duh.
</QUOTE>
I cut that out just to see how long it would take for someone to say it. :)

It wasn't meant to be any great <i>revelation</i>, just a lead-in to the bit about the artists.
<QUOTE>
Gamespy Article: Hah, made you look.
</QUOTE>
I actually thought it was quite good. I read it all the way through, anyway, which is very rare for me.
#6 by "Duality"
2000-06-05 21:17:15
Duality@neo-tokyo.org http://www.uramunch.com/
I like that take on it ... desperate to keep the following, they make a mad dash for what worked in the past in hopes it'll work again.

As much as I love Doom (I'm even playing them over as we speak), I do think that a new Doom game will do little more than tarnish the name.  Conversely, id may surprise me and I may wind up loving it.  I will <i>not</i> say that I refuse to download the demo, or not buy the game.  Chances are, I will feel my old calling barking at me to buy the next id game. (I was one of those that were very reluctant to get Q2 and Q3 when they came out, but I wound buying them anyway.)

So I will simply put my opinions and my beliefs aside, perch atop the fence and wait for something to manifest that I can properly judge when the time comes. :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#7 by "Jeff"
2000-06-05 21:19:24
jeffmill@bellsouth.net
<quote> They realised that suddenly they were part of a business machine instead of a game development house. </quote>

Well, Andy, they are a business *and* a game development house. Besides, if Adrian and Kevin had artistic qualms about doing Doom 3, then why have they essentially remade Doom in every game they've made since? They've been called Quake, but aside from new tech, the "plot's" about the same and the weapons aren't too terribly different either. Quake 2 even had a BFG, Doom's signature weapon.

It's not really a big deal to me, except for nostalgia's sake. And for that reason, I'm not sure it's a grand idea. Like Shaithis, I think they'll set themselves up for expectations they can't possibly meet.
#8 by "asspennies"
2000-06-05 21:23:09
asspennies@coredump.org http://www.coredump.org
I happen to agree with the Gamespy article, and that's mostly because I don't hold DOOM to the same high and lofty regard that most do.

I liked it, of course - it was hard not to.  But it was rather monotonous at times, certainly nothing more then blasting your way from level to level.  The only thing that kept me playing it was that there was nothing like it at the time.  (I only wish I had heard of System Shock around the time of Doom 2)

But best game ever made?  Even best FPS?  Hardly.

Maybe I'm just a cynical gamer, but I expect more out of my games then just mindless, reckless abandon.  I want a story, some narrative drive, some real REASON for doing what I'm doing, and a reason for getting to the next level, other than just to see what monster they'll throw at me next.  And make the reason compelling enough in the game world to actually continue, not some tacked-on story line and/or cutscene intermissions.

In other words, keep Doom, Quake, and Daikatana, and give me Half-Life, Jedi Knight, Theif, and System Shock(1 & 2).

Now, if id can really make DOOM 3 worth it, and REALLY make it the best FPS out there, then that's one thing.  But while I don't doubt Carmack will make a fantastic engine, and the game will be well designed from a technical gamepoint, I have a feeling they're headed down the same path as John Romero - designing a game that no one wants to play.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#9 by "Jeff"
2000-06-05 21:25:32
jeffmill@bellsouth.net
Or you could just summarize my post as Steve B. did.

<quote> Well duh. </quote>
#10 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-06-05 21:29:49
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>I actually thought it was quite good. I read it all the way through, anyway, which is very rare for me. </quote>
Well, it seemed like a summary of a Planetcrap thread. The interesting parts (like internal conflicts) get passing mention (understandably so, but still...). And all I can say about worrying Romero won't be involved is... Daikatana. I don't think they'd have a problem coming up with an interesting design for a new DOOM. If the internal people can't cut it, there are plenty of talented people who'd want that on their resume.

As for the gameplay, almost every game is distilled down to "keycard" gameplay. However, they could look at Messiah as an example of multiple paths to getting that keycard and opening that door. (There were literally 3-4 solutions to many situations in Messiah, it's one main strong suit.) So you could have "kill everyone" to get past a door, or maybe you could sneak, or maybe you could shoot a girder above and have it drop on the demons... who knows?

As for DOOM's popularity working against it, yeah, maybe to a tiny number of people (um, like us). The public, who actually buys 99.7% of all games, will scarf it up like nothing. We may bitch it's not good, or is too much/too little like the original, but they're not going to care one bit... it's DOOM.
#11 by "Seven Tacos"
2000-06-05 21:34:54
kurto@asgaard.usu.edu
Who's this Shaithis character? Never heard of him. How legendary is he?

Let's face it. Nobody has made a "fantastic" story based single player game. Ever. Every single game ever created boils down to a basic mechanic of doing something over and over. They add storyline to that bare mechanic to make it palatable. However if the mechanic isn't entertaining then a storyline can't save it. Id has typically managed to make a basic game (ie. run around shooting things) that is vaguely entertaining. Their UI is decent. It feels good. You can play their games without getting too frustrated with the interface. Others haven't had as much success doing that.

Even games like Thief, Half Life, etc. fail to create a completely successful integration of storyline and the game mechanic.
#12 by "Jeremy"
2000-06-05 21:37:56
jnthornh@eos.ncsu.edu
Ah, didn't we already "do the DOOM?"

Honestly, I think id has fallen into a sort of "3dfx" syndrome.  They had control of their market for so long, they didn't <I>have</I> to push the envelope.  They just sit back and release new products, which are just enhanced versions of their old products, and watch the cash flow in.

But they ain't sitting on that throne anymore.  Like 3dfx, they have the marketing power and name recognition to keep plodding along like this; but they are just losing ground every step of the way.  Unless they get off their asses and start doing something new, people <I>will</I> stop buying their stuff.

Admittedly, I like Q3:A multi; for nostalgia, perhaps, but I do enjoy it.  But the FPS world is changing, and id needs to wake the hell up and get with the program.  I can only take so much nostalgia before I puke.

Jeremy<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#13 by "|SnappY|"
2000-06-05 21:45:36
snap@nwlink.com
Gone in 60 seconds...

They're remaking a bad 70's movie who's only highlight was a <i>40 minute car chase</i> inspired by Bullitt... (are there no original thoughts?)


PBS showed 'The most requested Public 'made for tv' movie ever... Ursula K. Leguins' "The Lathe of Heaven" last night... it took them 20 years to bring 'the most requested public broadcasting movie' back to the small screen.

I watched the movie inbetween games of Fun House pinball. It had a pretty bad soundtrack, the film was grainy... Ursula's book was a giant message with a cobbled story around it (but good, nonetheless) rather than a giant story with a message within... I digress.

The architecture was nice.. for the 70's... it actually somehow reminded me of today. Ironic.



I said outloud last night... 'It'd be cool to remake this movie today, with our film making technologies..'

I immediately said afterwards 'It'd be funny if 20 years from NOW people say 'the first one was crap, the second one was a little bit better... I bet we could re-re-do it now (or whatever future word comes out of re-re-do, because I KNOW they'll invent one.. ha.) and make it even BETTER than the first two!'



Anyways... what was I saying? <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#14 by "Murfy"
2000-06-05 22:01:00
murfy@fsnet.co.uk
<QUOTE> There is also the horribly cynical possibility that Id has decided to cash in on the controversy surrounding Doom since the Columbine shootings. </QUOTE>

...and there's the horribly cynical Andy who could even begin to think that's one of id's reasons for a new DOOM...
#15 by "Seth Krieg"
2000-06-05 22:02:34
seth@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Here's what I think should happen. John Carmack should leave id, go work for Epic where he and Sweeney would conspire about what to put into their next generation engines. Have them work seperately, on their own "projects" and eventually merge the two. Then they can just let Shane Caudle do his thing and make them both look really good.

With Carmack gone, Devine, Kevin Cloud and Adrian Carmack license the red faction (or even use the Q3 engine) to design their next game. If the RF engien does what it's supposed to - playing Willit's levels with the RF engine is probably as close to an epiphany as any of us will ever get.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#16 by "flamethrower"
2000-06-05 22:04:28
flamey_at_evil@hotmail.com http://flamethrower.evilavatar.com
Red Dwarf time.

"They've re-made CASSABLANCA? The Philistines! The version with Gary Linekar was the <i>definitive</i> one.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "Jafd"
2000-06-05 22:10:44
jafd@whatthefuck.com http://www.therainforestsite.com/
<b>#11</b> "Seven Tacos" wrote...
<QUOTE>Let's face it. Nobody has made a "fantastic" story based single player game. Ever. </QUOTE>

System Shock 2.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#18 by "PainKilleR-[CE]"
2000-06-05 22:11:02
painkiller@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com/tftech/
I think that if the mission pack they're planning on releasing for Q3A had shipped as part of the original game (or at least the features they've been talking about that are in the pack), they probably would've taken a lot less flack over Q3A. I like the fact that they're planning on making a completely new engine for this Doom sequel, it's a good sign, because there are a lot of problems with continuing to update the old (Q3) engine. Hopefully this time Carmack can get those wide open spaces and large numbers of enemies on our screens without our CPUs going into overload and melting down.

As far as the story aspect of the game, I just hope they realise before they ship the game that they need to have someone in there that can come up with a good design for the gameplay and plot, as well as integrating the plot into the game (hell, the only story I got out of the Doom games was whatever I read off the screen between episodes, in a nice text format). Actually, now that I think about it, I don't really know what it would take to really make this a good game. I haven't played an FPS game in quite a while that compelled me to keep playing. I think the last one I finished in single player was the first Quake, and the only reason I did that was because it was insanely easy (after playing multiplayer for a year or so).

-PainKilleR-[CE]
#19 by "Andy"
2000-06-05 22:15:54
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#18</b>, PainKilleR-[CE]:
<QUOTE>
I think that if the mission pack they're planning on releasing for Q3A had shipped as part of the original game (or at least the features they've been talking about that are in the pack), they probably would've taken a lot less flack over Q3A.
</QUOTE>
What flack have they taken? I'm sure I've just missed it, but I've not seen/heard anything bad said about Q3A. I can't fault it myself.
#20 by "Darkseid"
2000-06-05 22:17:48
Darkseid-D@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
#11 "Seven Tacos" wrote...
  Lets Face it. Nobody has made a "fantastic" story based single player game.Ever.


Looking Glass Studios

Ultima Underworlds
System Shock 1 & 2
Thief The Dark Project & The Metal Age



Care to reconsider your blanket statment ?



Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#21 by "DanM"
2000-06-05 22:25:15
http://www.yadayada.com
I happen to think they may be going in the right
direction. Don't forget that G. Devine is on board
now and there is a large hiring pool available now
that LG Studios dissolved. Id needs to get back
to the single-player arena
#22 by "Grinder"
2000-06-05 22:29:28
pimurho@cableinet.co.uk http://www.pimurho.org.uk
<b>#19</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>What flack have they taken? </QUOTE>

From what I recall seeing on various Quake-related sites and message boards, iD(Id, id, whatever) was slammed for making an add-on pack that a lot of people thought should have been included if not in the initial release then in a free add-on. Hence the term "missing pack" instead of mission pack was coined. To a certain extent, I agree with them. Q3 didn't ship with anything near the gameplay or replayability of UT. Merely my opinion, however.
As for Doom3- I'm unsure. I'd prefer it if they contracted it out to someone like Gearbox, but I'll be interested in what they do finally come up with. In a way, I'm glad they're not saying anything about it until they've got something to show, and if they've got any sense, there's a whole world full of people that LIVED the Doom experience to draw ideas from.
I wish them luck- they're really going to need it to live it up to the expectations of the baying crowd of Doom fanatics.

-Grinder (ex lurker)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#23 by "Seth Krieg"
2000-06-05 22:34:34
seth@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#19</b> "Andy" wrote -
<QUOTE>
What flack have they taken? I'm sure I've just missed it, but I've not seen/heard anything bad said about Q3A. I can't fault it myself. </QUOTE>

I think the success of UT coinciding with the "good, but only kinda good" reviews Q3 got, that constitutes as flak to Id software. :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#24 by "Fyrewolf"
2000-06-05 22:37:31
<quote>Care to reconsider your blanket statment ?</quote>

I think he already answered you when he said:

<quote>Even games like Thief, Half Life, etc. fail to create a completely successful integration of storyline and the game mechanic.</quote>

I liked Thief and Thief 2, but the story was still incidental to the action.  I also enjoyed SS2 (right up until they started using organic alien technology which I cannot stand anymore), but I didn't find the story particularly engrossing.

f.
#25 by "Billy Saw Hurock"
2000-06-05 22:38:59
billysawhurock@hotmail.com http://www.bloweduprealgood.com
They are remaking Willy Wonka too!  Nobody can ever do Willy Wonka justice like Gene Wilder, he WAS Willy Wonka!
#26 by "asspennies"
2000-06-05 22:43:33
asspennies@coredump.org http://www.coredump.org
<b>#24</b> "Fyrewolf" wrote...
<QUOTE>
I liked Thief and Thief 2, but the story was still incidental to the action. I also enjoyed SS2 (right up until they started using organic alien technology which I cannot stand anymore), but I didn't find the story particularly engrossing.</QUOTE>

So what's the point here?  We haven't had a "Gone with the Wind" or "Grapes of Wrath" of gaming yet?  I don't think you'd get much of an argument there, but the genre is still young.

Up until now and for the forseeable future, I definitely see Half-Life as the "Citizen Kane" of the gaming world - An experience where everything is so tight, so *dead on*, that there's really no denying its greatness.  If gaming is an art, then this is one of the great masterworks.

But the very idea that we haven't had a good story-based game is preposterous, based on the idea that a game should be as fully engrossing as a book.  It's not, it can't, and it won't be, because you're dealing with two different mediums - one an excercise for the imagination, the other an excersize of the senses.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#27 by "loonyboi"
2000-06-05 22:50:20
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#11</b> "Seven Tacos" wrote...
<QUOTE>Let's face it. Nobody has made a "fantastic" story based single player game.</QUOTE>

I can name about ten or twenty - all from Infocom. Of course, none of them have graphics, but you get my point.

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#28 by "|SnappY|"
2000-06-05 22:52:11
snap@nwlink.com
Whatever... didn't you ever play Wings of Fury?

Where oh where has Steve Waldo gone?

We need to remake Wings of Fury and bring it to the hi-res age.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#29 by "loonyboi"
2000-06-05 22:52:28
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#25</b> "Billy Saw Hurock" wrote...
<QUOTE>They are remaking Willy Wonka too! Nobody can ever do Willy Wonka justice like Gene Wilder, he WAS Willy Wonka! </QUOTE>

Sorry homie, Roald Dahl was Willy Wonka. Don't get me wrong, I think the movie's got some charm, but it was never even remotely as good as the book(s).

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "Asmosis"
2000-06-05 22:58:26
tenael@hotmail.com
Unless my mind is cluttered from insomnia...didn't Id also make Hexen and Heretic? Both of them had half-way decent plots...still half-assed though. Half-Life didn't really have a story...you just had to escape from Black Mesa with scientists telling you what you need to do next after you kill a bunch of stuff. Not many games shooters on the PC have compelling storys (except of course for the afformentioned system shocks thief etc..) I've found shooters on the consoles to have better plots then PC shooters (Medal of Honor, GoldenEye, Perfect Dark). I wonder how badly I'll get flamed for this?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "Grinder"
2000-06-05 23:00:37
pimurho@cableinet.co.uk http://www.pimurho.org.uk
<b>#30</b> "Asmosis" wrote...
<QUOTE>...didn't Id also make Hexen and Heretic? </QUOTE>

Sorry, Hexen and Heretic were done by Raven (although I think at least one of the two had input from Jon Romero?). They just used id's Doom engine.

-Grinder<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#32 by "Fyrewolf"
2000-06-05 23:01:55
<quote>But the very idea that we haven't had a good story-based game is preposterous, based on the idea that a game should be as fully engrossing as a book. It's not, it can't, and it won't be, because you're dealing with two different mediums - one an excercise for the imagination, the other an excersize of the senses.</quote>

You know, you had some good points here.  You didn't have to ruin it with a complete and utter strawman.  There was no mention of books or that games should be as engrossing as a book.

f.
#33 by "asspennies"
2000-06-05 23:08:05
asspennies@coredump.org http://www.coredump.org
<b>#32</b> "Fyrewolf" wrote...
<QUOTE>You know, you had some good points here. You didn't have to ruin it with a complete and utter strawman. There was no mention of books or that games should be as engrossing as a book.</QUOTE>

My point was, how engrossing do you want to get?  Formy money, the most engrossed you can get in a storyline is with a book.

I think that decrying a game's lack of storyline is rediculous unless there really *is no storyline* - like in the case of Doom.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#34 by "Jafd"
2000-06-05 23:10:12
jafd@whatthefuck.com http://www.therainforestsite.com/
#29 - Is it really necessary to quote the troll when you feed him? That really defeats the purpose of the ignore function.

Er, wait, I know; *click*<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#35 by "Asmosis"
2000-06-05 23:13:28
tenael@hotmail.com
<b>#33</b> "asspennies" wrote...
<QUOTE>#32 I think that decrying a game's lack of storyline is rediculous unless there really *is no storyline* - like in the case of Doom.</QUOTE>

Doom had a story...you were a marine and had to go kill stuff, how much more indepth do you want then that! *sarcasm implied*<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#36 by "Jeff"
2000-06-05 23:16:08
jeffmill@bellsouth.net
loonyboi said:
<quote> I can name about ten or twenty - all from Infocom. Of course, none of them have graphics, but you get my point.</quote>

Did they ever. Floyd's death and solving the murder in The Witness, those were great moments.

Thankfully, it's not dead. Fans are still making games that rival and even surpass good old Infocom's best work. There was even a commercial product released in the past year called "Avalon," with neat little doodads in the package, much like the "feelies" the old Infocom games had (my fave was the cool stuff in The Witness).

The game itself, alas, was merely passable. Not nearly as good as the stuff available for free.
#37 by "PainKilleR-[CE]"
2000-06-05 23:25:23
painkiller@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com/tftech/
[19] Andy (NEW!)
<quote>What flack have they taken? I'm sure I've just missed it, but I've not seen/heard anything bad said about Q3A. I can't fault it myself.</quote>

Pretty much what was already said in the above responses to the question. Basically, when you ship a game with ~30 DM maps and 4(!) CTF maps, then ship it off to be squared up against UT (anyone know the numbers of maps for each game type in UT?) which included DM, CTF, Domination, and Assault game types, better(IMO) replayability, etc. it makes Q3A look worse than it really is. Overall, I don't think Q3's a bad game, but it's really easy to see that it could've been a whole lot better.

Plus, a commercial add-on has never been as popular for multiplayer as the game that it goes with, making it a waste of time to buy it unless you're planning on playing those team-based game types with the bots. I know this quite well, as I own all of the major Q and Q2 mission packs. No matter how good or bad they were, there was never anywhere to play the multiplayer portion of them, or just try looking for servers running Op4DM. As much as I'd like to play Op4CTF when it comes out, there's not much chance of there being a lot of servers for that either (one of my favorite TFC map makers, Hellface, had a large hand in Op4CTF, including making 3 of the 7 maps that will be included in the initial patch, he's also credited for concept and design of the mod if I remember what I saw this morning correctly).
 
Basically, if you look at what the Q3 mission pack brings to the table for Q3, it's more weapons, more models, and more game types. With the exception of the models, UT already had that (UT has very few models, but definitely has the weapons and the game types). Maybe I perceive id as taking a lot of flack over Q3 because it simply didn't seem to live up to the hype, at least to me, and because someone else came out with a superior (IMO) product.

-PainKilleR-[CE]
#38 by "Fyrewolf"
2000-06-05 23:30:18
Asspennies:

<quote>I think that decrying a game's lack of storyline is rediculous unless there really *is no storyline* - like in the case of Doom. </quote>

Another strawman here.  I didn't say System Shock 2 didn't have a storyline.  I said I didn't find it very engrossing.

f.
#39 by "Greg"
2000-06-05 23:34:22
<B>#25,</B> Billy Saw Hurock wrote:

<QUOTE>They are remaking Willy Wonka too! Nobody can ever do Willy Wonka justice like Gene Wilder, he WAS Willy Wonka!</QUOTE>

That is funny, considering a couple days ago I saw Wonka bars (for the first time I can remember), and they included Golden tickets!

Greg
#40 by "Gestalt"
2000-06-05 23:35:26
john@eurogamer.net http://www.eurogamer.net
Seven Tacos - "Even games like Thief, Half Life, etc. fail to create a completely successful integration of storyline and the game mechanic"

Suit yourself. I thought Thief was about the closest any company has come to creating a perfect story-led single player game in recent years... It wasn't perfect, but it came pretty damn close.


flamethrower (#16) - "They've re-made CASSABLANCA? The Philistines! The version with Gary Linekar was the definitive one."

LOL! I was just watching that episode yesterday as well... Actually, on my Casablanca DVD there's a feature that includes clips from a bunch of re-makes. The Loony Tunes one with Bugs Bunny as Rick looked pretty cool... ;) I wouldn't mind seeing the Marx Brothers version either.
#41 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-06-05 23:35:32
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>I happen to think they may be going in the right direction. Don't forget that G. Devine is on board now and there is a large hiring pool available now that LG Studios dissolved. </quote>
No disrespect intended to Mr. Devine, but whasn't he mostly the technical lead on 7th Guest and 11th Hour. He came up with the compression technology that made the game a reality. I'm not entirely sure how much he had to do with the puzzle design, but I'd hardly call 7th Guest a "design-driven" kind of game. While there's no denying its place in the history, it was successful in large part as a technological showcase, one of the first "gotta have" CD games.
#42 by "asspennies"
2000-06-05 23:42:17
asspennies@coredump.org http://www.coredump.org
<b>#38</b> "Fyrewolf" wrote...
<QUOTE>Another strawman here. I didn't say System Shock 2 didn't have a storyline. I said I didn't find it very engrossing.</QUOTE>

Well then, no disrespect or insult intended, but you were one of very few.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#43 by "Jafd"
2000-06-05 23:42:45
jafd@whatthefuck.com http://www.therainforestsite.com/
That's another thing; the Quake 3 "Mission Pack." What, pray tell, are the actual "missions" going to be? Get together with people and go kill other people? That's not a 'mission,' that's a frigging playstyle.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#44 by "Nathan McKenzie"
2000-06-05 23:57:08
Here's my feelings on this whole story issue(just because I like to hear myself talk, I guess):

Half-Life: If Half-Life is such a great story, who's your favorite character in it?  Barney?  The beast with tentacles?  A grunt?  Come on, here... god.  Half-Life attained a level of _immersion_ I have never seen equaled in any game, hands down.  Valve was brilliant in their execution of it.  But to lift Half-Life up as an example of fantastic story is to reveal a decided lack of understanding of what a story is.  Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine, but if our reviewers are going to be using a game as a measuring stick against which other games are to be compared, it seems like it would be in everyone's best interest if they got their definitions clear and accurate.  Half-Life isn't a story - it's more of a situation, and one that is actually strikingly similar to Doom's.

As Loonyboi pointed out, there have been games with well done stories for almost as long as there have been computerized games.  Many old text adventures certainly had strong stories.  If you don't mind a bit of melodrama, a number of Japanese RPG's have extremely developed and well done stories.  Just a week ago I had my faith restored in Computer RPG's by playing through Planescape:Torment, which had an excellent and original story.

FPS's are perhaps the worst possible format for presenting a story... and at the same time it is also easily the strongest.  It is the weakest because you have to show EVERYTHING - telling or describing in a first-person game works very strongly against the perspective's greatest strength, its ability to immerse (especially in real-time).  The kind of art and content creation required to do ANYTHING in first person is restrictive and prohibitive.  That is why even our most developed and advanced attempts at first person games still have relatively shallow and simple levels of interaction compared to most other styles of games.  BUT, when done right, first person does have an immersive quality that is extremely powerful.  That is why (in my opinion), when done correctly a game that is fundamentally a fairly limited narrative (again, HL springs to mind) can still be an incredibly powerful experience.

I can't help but feel that the sorts of people who say "Half-Life has the best story ever written" because it has a better story than Quake are the same sorts of people who say "Paul Steed is the best modeler EVER" simply because they prefer his models to the ones in Unreal Tournament (this isn't intended as a slight against Paul Steed, by the way).  There's something to be said for having a bit more breadth for discussion, I think.

Bah - someone just distracted me so I'm afraid I've run out of steam.  I'll pester you folks some more later =)

Um, so to recap, games can have great stories, but FPS's are probably the last place they'll be developed properly.  The end.

Nathan
#45 by "George Broussard"
2000-06-06 00:02:31
georgeb@3drealms.com
The bottom line is that Half-Life is the new standard for FPS games.  Doom or not, id better meet and exceed Half-Life in design and plot/story or there will be mobs marching to burn the place down ;)

Fans do not want another run, shoot bad guy game with no depth.

This will be a challenge for id (as much as us trying to follow up Duke Nukem 3D).  You have millions of fans that all have their own idea of what they want in a remake.

id really has to go above and beyond on this one, and I don't think people will accept another straight shooter.  Not this time.

George Broussard, 3D Realms
#46 by "Duality"
2000-06-06 00:05:50
Duality@neo-tokyo.org http://www.uramunch.com/
<b>#37</b> Quothe "PainKilleR-[CE]" ...
<QUOTE>Maybe I perceive id as taking a lot of flack over Q3 because it simply didn't seem to live up to the hype, at least to me, and because someone else came out with a superior (IMO) product.</QUOTE>

That is so very true.  I think of Q3 as a complete failure compared to its predecessors.  I think I played it all through January and the first couple weeks of February before I put it back on the shelf next to Battle Arena Toshinden 2 (ouch).  I played Q3DM maybe 3 times, Q3CTF a few more times (the maps were sub-par, I would have even settled for a McKinley map :P).  As a matter of fact, I got real tired of playing multiplayer games period after I hit Q3. :(  I can't even play Tribes without getting disgusted.  (Perhaps its because I'm the Last of the Modem Users :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#47 by "loonyboi"
2000-06-06 00:10:45
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
Stories be damned...

I just downloaded JDoom, and played Doom 2 for a good 30 minutes or so. It's a great port, but it crashed Windows 2000 on exit.

ANYway, I have to say, that I don't really <i>want</i> id to make some lame attempt at Half-Life with Doom X (it can't be Doom 3 because of Final Doom, and they've only got 6 months to make it Doom 2k).

Doom had no story. Doom 2 had no story. And you know what? I love those games. When they were good, they were great. Admitedly some of those levels got to be real annoying when you were running around trying to get a key (ugh). But when it was action-packed, Doom just couldn't be beat.

What I hope id does, is recreate that with new technology.

Here's hoping.

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "loonyboi"
2000-06-06 00:12:42
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#36</b> "Jeff" wrote...
<QUOTE>Did they ever. Floyd's death and solving the murder in The Witness, those were great moments. </QUOTE>

Aye. My personal favorite games were the more surreal ones, like A Mind Forever Voyaging and Suspended, mostly because nobody has attempted anything remotely that creative ever since (except for possibly Kenji Eno, but I can't play his more original games because I don't speak Japanese).

<QUOTE>Thankfully, it's not dead. Fans are still making games that rival and even surpass good old Infocom's best work. There was even a commercial product released in the past year called "Avalon," with neat little doodads in the package, much like the "feelies" the old Infocom games had (my fave was the cool stuff in The Witness).

The game itself, alas, was merely passable. Not nearly as good as the stuff available for free. </QUOTE>

Ever play Pick up the Phonebooth and Die? One of the best games i've played in years.

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#49 by "loonyboi"
2000-06-06 00:15:26
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
Off topic:

Ladies and gentlemen, John Romero has the last laugh.

<a href="http://208.232.126.139/npd_trsts/lookuptrsts.asp?id=15&date=5/21/00">http://208.232.126.139/npd_trsts/lookuptrsts.asp?id=15&date=5/21/00</a>

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "crash"
2000-06-06 00:22:26
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
this is interesting. Nathan (#44) says:
<i>Um, so to recap, games can have great stories, but FPS's are probably the last place they'll be developed properly.</i>

and the saddest part of this statement is that FPSs are the genre good stories will be most effective in.

if, you know, anyone bothered to develop 'em.

and from the intro:
<i>Correct me if I'm wrong, but the one resounding criticism that is always made about Id's games is that they are NOT story-based!</i>

id's games have always had a story. they don't take developing the story too much into consideration, but they're all based on one. and granted, it's not much of one, and not very immersive, to be sure, but there it is.

so. id's games are all NotMuchOfAStory-based. all games are, for that matter. :)
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