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The end of email as we know it?
July 7th 2002, 13:39 CEST by Morn

Spam sucks. I guess we all agree on that. I don't know about you people, but I get something like 150 spam mails each and every day. If I only I was getting that many real mails, too! But no, sifting through my daily pile of spam to find the one or two legit mails that I do get resembles the needle and haystack thing just a wee little bit too much.

There are a number of tricks that can help you battle spam. The most simple of them all is installing local filters in your email client. There are also server-side solutions that automatically reject incoming emails based on the hosts they are being sent from. All these are "blacklist" solutions; you essentially maintain a list of blocked hosts/subjects/addresses.

But now there is something new: TMDA, calling itself a "whitelist" solution, runs on your mail server and blocks all mail on default. When someone sends you an email, TMDA replies with a confirmation mail to find out if this someone really is a human trying to send you a real email. After replying to this confirmation mail, the sender's address will be put on the whitelist, and all subsequent emails sent by him will be forwarded to your actual mail account.

At first sight, this is a great way to battle spam, since spammers never use a valid reply address. But, and this is what I'm trying to find out with this thread, do systems like TMDA really bring a new golden age of email, or do they take away some of its usefulness? Do we really want to end up having to authenticate every time we email someone new? What about mailing lists -- wouldn't mailing list maintainers get really pissed about all the confirmation mails they would suddenly be getting from people who forgot to put the mailing list addresses on their whitelists manually?

And just how secure is this system? Couldn't spammers just set up some kind of mailbot that automatically replies to these confirmation mails, and use its address as the reply address in their spam mails? And even if it is 100% secure, when will spammers move to Instant Messaging systems? Will we have to use something like TMDA on IMs, too?

Oh yeah, security vs. freedom. Your thoughts?
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: The end of email as we know it?

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#1 by "Anonymous"
2002-07-07 13:41:00
first post hehe
#2 by "Anonymous"
2002-07-07 13:43:52
and i hope there will be a topic about romero and hall teaching  about games at uni soon
#3 by "Anonymous"
2002-07-07 13:47:30
http://www.dallasnews.com/business/technology/stories/070602dnbusromero.4f557.html
#4 by Speed
2002-07-07 13:49:00
speed@crew.fragland.net http://www.fragland.net
I doubt very much that this is a solution to spam. Unless carriers start actually blocking clients that send out spam, spam will not stop.

Of course, it's the choice between business and policy. Carriers and ISP's would have to take action against their clients (who pay them money) and although some are big enough to stop a few customers, there are alot of internet providers that cannot afford to loose customers, even if they don't comply to their acceptible use policy.

And next to that there's the problem with law. Having worked at KPNQwest (which used to be the biggest carrier in Europe) I know that it's hard to cut one of your customers because he has a customer who sends spam.

As an example : we had a customer who's customer sent spam, and it took us about 6 months before we could actually take action against our customer because of legal reasons.

I never said I was healthy
#5 by Duality
2002-07-07 13:50:21
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
I have to send an email ... to send an email ... amazing!

I email at least 5 people a day outside of my company and its always a one time thing.  I'd personally rather sift through the spam than have to send an email ... wait what can be up to 20-60 minutes for an auto-response, reply to that and THEN hope the person got my emails!

But it sounds like I have a lot less spam than most people (about 4-5 pieces per day counting work and personal) so its not that big of a deal to me.

-Jon
#6 by HoseWater
2002-07-07 13:59:47
barneyque@hotmail.com
Interesting.  One of the nasty things about fighting spam, is that it is nearly impossible to find out who actually committed the crime, at least in a cost effective way.

If the spammers were forced to abandon their parasitic use of evil open relays, and be forced into using a mail-bot, which presumably would need to be of a more stable nature on an identifiable host, it would give the generals of the war, a target to attack.

We are at the point where most good ideas are better than doing nothing. If each idea is applied, one on top of the other, perhaps we can one day spray paint on the invisible bogeyman spammer, and snuff him out.

I've not read the article yet, and may have more to say after that. These comments are just initial thoughts on the material in the main post.
#7 by "Anonymous"
2002-07-07 14:02:22
sorry, i mean
http://www.dallasnews.com/business/technology/stories/070602dnbusromero.4f557.html
#8 by HoseWater
2002-07-07 14:12:24
barneyque@hotmail.com
The one problem I see with this, is important automated mailings from a source who may, or may not change their sending address, but which is not monitored for reply.

The example that comes to my mind is billing notices.  I have transitioned most of my month to month bills, to email only where possible, I receive no paper notice for things like my cable bill, or my phone bill, or my utilities.  The consequences of those mails being blocked are quite costly.

I personally still think this sounds promising, if for no other reason other than that five minutes of contemplation, and lack of a good argument against to convince me otherwise.
#9 by Scott Miller
2002-07-07 14:37:53
scottmi11er@hotmail.com
I use McAfee's Spamkiller, and it blocks 95% of the spam I would have gotten.  Highly recommended.

"A game should not be judged only on its appearance. It should be played before drawing conclusions." - Miyamoto
#10 by HoseWater
2002-07-07 14:42:53
barneyque@hotmail.com
I am always afraid of spamkillers incase they kill something important.  

I find it hard to trust software to decipher my phone bill from a two more inches of penis offer.
#11 by jjohnsen
2002-07-07 14:59:11
http://www.johnsenclan.com
I use spamkiller, but let it wait to kill until I have looked over it.  I'll do that for a week or two to make sure its blocking/not blocking what I want.

The incredible insights you've given on many topics have brightened all of our lives and touched us in ways we can never fully describe.
#12 by jjohnsen
2002-07-07 15:00:48
http://www.johnsenclan.com
And Anonymous, your hijack doesn't seem to be taking effect.  Why don't you submit it in the bin?

The incredible insights you've given on many topics have brightened all of our lives and touched us in ways we can never fully describe.
#13 by Fallon
2002-07-07 15:20:57
http://www.fagnews.com
Ooooooh do we really need another witless Romero-bashing thread? We could all go read Voodoo Extreme comments if we wanted humourless insults of game developers.

I'd feel more fulfilled making Christmas cards with the mentally ill.
#14 by Warren Marshall
2002-07-07 15:38:50
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
I use SpamKiller as well.  It's a thing of beauty.

HoseWater

The way the program works is :

- it downloads all spam and keeps it in it's local database
- all email that it perceives as legit is left on the server for your real email program to pick up
- you can review the spam and add new filters and such as necessary to let specific email through in the future

It also includes an option to send error messages to spammers so maybe they'll take you off their lists.  Probably won't work, but I send them anyway because it makes me feel good.

Plus, it downloads new filters regularly from McAfee ... the filters are excellent.  It catches, I'd say, 95% of my spam automatically.  I'm teaching it how to catch the rest.

"It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
#15 by HoseWater
2002-07-07 15:54:49
barneyque@hotmail.com
Interesting, it sounds like it does most of the job, I just can't bring myself to spend money on the darn thing.

I suffer too many self inflicted wounds it seems. I'll put it on my gift list, and see if I can't turn it into a birthday present or something.
#16 by Warren Marshall
2002-07-07 16:20:03
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
It really is worth it.  I open it up once a day to review the spam it filtered (and make sure nothing legit got stopped) and I'm floored by how much is there.  It brings a tear to the eye.

"It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
#17 by Count DuCu
2002-07-07 17:30:53
DuCu@ez2www.com
Don't waste your time with spam, and spam topics, and people who sign in to spam, and people who sign in to spam and then download spam filters to filter the spam they signed up to previously, but end up recieving spam from the people who coded the spam filter about how good their spam filter is, to download another filter that is yet bypassed by spammers, because between the time they got the first one and the last one they signed in for a thausand new hosts with a thausand new newsletter and ticked a thausand more boxes on how they are all up about games and music, how they have an income of 100 000K a year...
Not to mention that they told their mailhost company how they liked games and apple pie and the host bypassed their filters and spammed them anyway to fill their mailbox and then complain that they got passed the limit of diskspace they are allowed to have ot store the spam that multiplies on the server of host company that decided it was to be so but yet complains about it... And then that limit is overrun by an spam email by the host company how you can buy more diskspace from them to store your spam...
#18 by Fallon
2002-07-07 17:52:50
http://www.fagnews.com
Spam, spam, spam, spam.

I'd feel more fulfilled making Christmas cards with the mentally ill.
#19 by HoseWater
2002-07-07 17:59:38
barneyque@hotmail.com
I am not sure who exactly you are referring to in that piece Count, but you are certainly not even remotely describing any habits of mine.  Nor, I imagine a good portion of the readership here. My sister...yes, that would be her, but most people around here I think already have a clue.

I tell people nothing, and lie when I do, uncheck check boxes with the best of them, and my new plan to defeat the spam telling me how I can order more drive space to hold more spam, is that I am going to allow it to top out, specifically so that more spam will not fit, in particular the host sanctioned spam, which I believe a lot of the hotmail shit is.

I am going to let them fuck themselves in the ass, they can't have it both ways.  Screw that.

As for morn, he gets spammed to death because he owns too many domains, and participates in too many forums, and probably worse yet, his address's are probably being mined left and right from usenet archives. I can see how TMDA would help him a great deal.
#20 by mgns
2002-07-07 18:56:03
I think Bailey should do teh intarweb folks a service and go pay all the spammers a personal visit.

professional philosophical level design monkey.
#21 by Leslie Nassar
2002-07-07 19:13:26
http://departmentofinternets.com
worst. hijack. attempt. ever.

and the doctor's praying to Buddha, "send me to another town!"
#22 by Cliff
2002-07-07 19:56:14
cps46@rcn.com
The idea has some merit...yes, there's plenty of potential problems with mailing lists, problems with "don't reply to this email" billing notices (although, someone should educate such losers on the "reply-to" field), etc., but some judicious tweaking might be able to solve most of them.

But is there a potential problem of spammers "catching on" and setting up mailbots or what have you?  Setting up mailbots that'll handle the 357,932 replies they'll get in one sitting one from every person they spammed yesterday?  I think not.  There's no technical obstacle to doing it, but it would actually require them to pay for the traffic for a fucking change, which sweet as it would be, they're going to after careful consideration and review of the costs and benefits choose to, like, not fucking do.  

Apropos the McAfee program with its filter updates -- there's some distributed spam blocking project out there whose name escapes me where people contribute spam descriptions or hashes or something which is supposed to work pretty nicely.  

Of course, that's still wouldn't help my Hotmail account, unless I paid for the privilege of POP3 retrieval -- included in what Microsoft so endearingly calls Hotmail Extra Storage.  More like Hotmail Extra Fucking Spam Storage Which You're Fucking Paying For, Sucker.

On preview:  fuck you, you fucking fucks.

Fight terrorism, grow your own weed.
#23 by zimbardo_ugly
2002-07-07 20:01:46
zimbardo_ugly@hotmail.com
It really is worth it.  I open it up once a day to review the spam it filtered (and make sure nothing legit got stopped) and I'm floored by how much is there.


So you actually skim through the spam once a day? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of the program?

.i lu doi ringos.star. xu do puku'aroroi dunli dopecaku leni virnu li'u
.i lu go'i co'i le pamoi se morji be mi li'u
#24 by jjohnsen
2002-07-07 20:18:33
http://www.johnsenclan.com
Warren I use the send complain message when I see a lot coming from the same domain.  I've actually had one or two replies saying they are looking into it.  Not sure if it will have any effect, but it feels good.

The incredible insights you've given on many topics have brightened all of our lives and touched us in ways we can never fully describe.
#25 by Cliff
2002-07-07 20:26:01
cps46@rcn.com
Those replies from admin@spamming.server saying they really, really give a shit, thanks for letting them know, and they'll look into it?  

Those are mailbots.

Fight terrorism, grow your own weed.
#26 by "Bill "Fucking" Gates"
2002-07-07 20:32:59
jism@insideyourfuckingmouth.org http://welcome.to/yourmotherfuckersarseandtit
I have just had THE GREATEST FUCKING IDEA EVER!!!

we had a gazillion threads about EULA's and shit like that!!
gues what i NEVER[b/] saw pointed out, which of course *I* just thought of.
and may you bitch about me or whatever but remain true to yourself and think about it.
and that is THAT:

A VERY LARGE PORTION OF END USERS (GAMERS) ARE KIDS UNDER 18. THAT MEANS THAT THEY CAN NOT LEGALLY ENTER INTO A CONTRACT OR LEGAL AGREEMENT. THIS APPLIES AS MUCH TO THE USA AS TO MOST OTHER WESTERN COUNTRIES. SO WHATEVER THE SWEET FUCK BLIZZARD WANTS YOU TO SUCK ON DOESN'T REALLY MATTER SINCE YOU ARE A MINOR!!

forget all you overgrown hornbags and remember that 55% of gamers are under 18. well under 18, more like 13-16.

so what do you think ???? what do you superficial bastards think of that ? i know you agree and are probably in SHOCK right now that this was never pointed out!!! i wonder what millionare scott "fuck me i'm rich" miller and his gay pal george "fat bastard" bousard would say RIGHT about now ?!?



ps: morn you fat pig. go die in a corner somewhere!! and take a jar of honey with you!!!

pps: i really really really REALLY want to smell jennifer love hewitt's arse when she has a dump. am i sick ?
#27 by Foodbunny
2002-07-07 20:35:35
foodbunny@attbi.com http://www.foodbunny.com
I think you've been playing Water Closet.

"Ever been fucked by a bed?  You have no choice now. Feel my sheets. Feel my mattress. Feel my pillows. Feel me!"
#28 by Fallon
2002-07-07 20:51:53
http://www.fagnews.com
Wow, insulting people on the internet. Now there's an idea.

I'd feel more fulfilled making Christmas cards with the mentally ill.
#29 by Warren Marshall
2002-07-07 21:15:33
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Zimbardo_ugly
So you actually skim through the spam once a day? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of the program?

I don't sift ... I skim the subject lines and look for anything that might have been incorrectly filtered.  This takes about 5 seconds.

It's a hell of a lot more convenient than dealing with it 50 times a day as it trickles in.

"It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
#30 by BobJustBob
2002-07-07 21:29:09
This thread is getting way more spam than the others.

So there.
#31 by Cliff
2002-07-07 21:38:41
cps46@rcn.com
If you were stuck on a desert island and could only bring one phrase with you to filter spam on?  "This is not spam".

Fight terrorism, grow your own weed.
#32 by None-1a
2002-07-07 22:07:32
A VERY LARGE PORTION OF END USERS (GAMERS) ARE KIDS UNDER 18. THAT MEANS THAT THEY CAN NOT LEGALLY ENTER INTO A CONTRACT OR LEGAL AGREEMENT


Being under 18 just makes the contract voidable, it's done to give people under 18 an easy way out in case they wheren't thinking at the time. Of course once it's considered void you also lose all rights the agreement gave you (including that little part about giving you the right to use the software).
#33 by Ashiran
2002-07-07 22:13:20
People who send me spam should be shot in the head.

Repeatedly.

"Good writers are harder to find than nice breasts" - morn
#34 by Fallon
2002-07-07 22:17:39
http://www.fagnews.com
If you were stuck on a desert island and could only bring one phrase with you to filter spam on?


"The"

I'd feel more fulfilled making Christmas cards with the mentally ill.
#35 by bishop
2002-07-07 22:19:07
http://www.darkintel.org/00FF00/
So, people under 18, buying mature titles, aren't held accountable for the EULA contained therein, because they're under 18?

Hrm.

May the end of the world be warm and smoldering.
At least for some of you.
#36 by Petri Jarvilehto
2002-07-07 22:26:47
petri@remedy.fi http://www.remedy.fi
Our IT guys installed a new spamkiller two months ago. Now everything going through the mail server that looks like spam gets an additional *** SPAM *** inserted into the subject. So far it's been 100% accurate. I still store the mails, but don't even bother to check them more than once a week or so.

Then again, I only get something like 10-20 spam per day, so it's not that big deal to delete them manually either.
#37 by Ashiran
2002-07-08 00:15:29
I only get something like 10-20 spam per day


There is something very wrong with this statement. Do you see what it is?

Even one spam mail is too much. Fortunately unsubscribing seems to work so far.

"Good writers are harder to find than nice breasts" - morn
#38 by Squeaky
2002-07-08 00:22:51
I haven't recieved a spam in over 2 weeks!






So there.

"Understand? Good. Play!" -- Hatsumi-Sensei
#39 by Warren Marshall
2002-07-08 00:29:46
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Ashiran
Even one spam mail is too much. Fortunately unsubscribing seems to work so far.

Never, EVER, do that.  All you're doing is confirming that the email account is active and that the person using it reads and responds to spam.

"It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
#40 by "Michael's Pipe"
2002-07-08 02:52:23
That's great, it starts with an earthquake, birds and snakes, an aeroplane -
Lenny Bruce is not afraid. Eye of a hurricane, listen to yourself churn -
world serves its own needs, don't misserve your own needs. Feed it up a knock,
speed, grunt no, strength no. Ladder structure clatter with fear of height,
down height. Wire in a fire, represent the seven games in a government for
hire and a combat site. Left her, wasn't coming in a hurry with the furies
breathing down your neck. Team by team reporters baffled, trump, tethered
crop. Look at that low plane! Fine then. Uh oh, overflow, population,
common group, but it'll do. Save yourself, serve yourself. World serves its
own needs, listen to your heart bleed. Tell me with the rapture and the
reverent in the right - right. You vitriolic, patriotic, slam, fight, bright
light, feeling pretty psyched.

It's the end of e-mail as we know it.
It's the end of e-mail as we know it.
It's the end of e-mail as we know it and I feel fine.

Six o'clock - TV hour. Don't get caught in foreign tower. Slash and burn,
return, listen to yourself churn. Lock him in uniform and book burning,
blood letting. Every motive escalate. Automotive incinerate. Light a candle,
light a motive. Step down, step down. Watch a heel crush, crush. Uh oh,
this means no fear - cavalier. Renegade and steer clear! A tournament,
a tournament, a tournament of lies. Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives
and I decline.

It's the end of e-mail as we know it.
It's the end of e-mail as we know it.
It's the end of e-mail as we know it and I feel fine.

The other night I tripped a nice continental drift divide. Mount St. Edelite.
Leonard Bernstein. Leonid Breshnev, Lenny Bruce and Lester Bangs.
Birthday party, cheesecake, jelly bean, boom! You symbiotic, patriotic,
slam, but neck, right? Right.

It's the end of e-mail as we know it.
It's the end of e-mail as we know it.
It's the end of e-mail as we know it and I feel fine...fine...

(It's time I had some time alone)
#41 by jjohnsen
2002-07-08 03:11:22
http://www.johnsenclan.com
Even one spam mail is too much. Fortunately unsubscribing seems to work so far.


It's never worked for me.

The incredible insights you've given on many topics have brightened all of our lives and touched us in ways we can never fully describe.
#42 by Neo-Reaper
2002-07-08 03:27:35
neoreaper@excite.com http://octobermoon.homeip.net
#39 by Warren Marshall
Never, EVER, do that.  All you're doing is confirming that the email account is active and that the person using it reads and responds to spam.

I disagree.  I've had quite a bit of luck 'unsubscribing'.  Especially from spam that results from signing up for something on the web.  Though it doesn't always work, I've never had my spam increase because of it.  Honestly, your e-mail address is just one of thousands on a mailing list, I don't think they hold back and save a special dose of spam for those who reply back...

"Dream of me... and maybe, just maybe, this nightmare will end."
#43 by Warren Marshall
2002-07-08 03:35:56
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
No, but they DO have "good lists" which are verified email addresses ... those are worth more than just a random spidering of the web.

The thing is, allowing you to unsubscribe is of no benefit to them.  You aren't their customer and it costs them nothing to send out email ... so why do they give you the option?  To collect verified addresses.

"It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
#44 by Sgt Hulka
2002-07-08 04:30:06
Hulka Finally Saw Minority Report.. ->> SPOILER ALERT!!! << --


WARNING: SPOILERS FOLLOW


Okay, the film is good. Not great, but very good.  I like it 100 times better than AI, and 50 times better than AOTC.

The one major problem I had with the story is as follows:

SPOILER HERE:

When he returns to find the Minority Report at the lab and kidnaps the female, he uses his old eye to gain entrance to the building.

This is 2054 we're talking about in the film.  

Here in 2002 when you're fired or asked to leave a job, let alone on the lamb for murder, your access to EVERYTHING is immediately cut.  All access cards are turned in, and you are usually escorted out of the building by cops should you try and assasinate your boss or something on the way to your car.  

Do things change so much in 50 years that we allow people to keep access to the most secret labs in the world after they're accused of a crime and on the lamb for pre-murder?  

Plus, on top of that, after he uses his old eyes to get the female, it's nearly two or three days later when his wife uses his eyes AGAIN to bust into the jail to get him out.  Wouldn't they have seen in the logs his old eyes were used to get into the lab and cut off his access then? Perhaps they fucked up by nothing cutting off his access when he went on the lamb to begin with, but a second time too?  That just doesn't make any sense at all, perhaps we're more trusting in the future.  This is something I couldn't make myself ignore.  If he had to tunnel under the pool to get to the girl, or some other way to gain entrance, I would have had no other real issues with the story.. (I think)..

All in all, it was a fun film, a bit too long, the spiders were cool, Cruise was a tool.  The film could have been 20-30 mins shorter.

DOOMED! - Videogames Turn Deadly.
#45 by _Fury_
2002-07-08 04:39:17
ajhill@wi.rr.com
I disagree with what you wrote.

Research has been shown to cause cancer in laboratory rats.
#46 by Sgt Hulka
2002-07-08 04:41:33
Of course you do!

DOOMED! - Videogames Turn Deadly.
#47 by Max
2002-07-08 08:36:35
http://massivebraincase.org/
I get several thousand spams per month - same problem as Morn, too many domains and too many years of having my addresses on web pages.  I use procmail almost exclusively and over the years have developed an extremely solid recipe file.  RBL stuff has never worked well for me - I guess most of my spam is from smaller operators.  The number one filter I have is the one that looks for the words "to unsubscribe" in the body, followed by "concerned about your privacy" and "unsolicited commercial email"... the ONLY people who send you mail with "we are concerned about your privacy" in it are spammers.  I suppose they're telling you the truth as well; they're concerned that you'll assert your right to it.

Having a spam trap email address (which is all Hotmail is good for) to use in webforms probably saves me from a significantly larger volume of spams - my main Hotmail spam trap address gets several hundred per day and probably rejects half the ones that get sent to it because it's full all the time.

Anyone with a website ever set up something like RobotCop, to honeypot email spiders?  I was stunned at the number of email-gathering spiders that were crawling my various sites - several hundred per day.  You can tell that it's a bad little spider if it ignores your robots.txt file.  Evil fuckers.

Hey, did you know you have stretch marks in the corners of your mouth? Odd...
#48 by Ashiran
2002-07-08 10:04:29
Never, EVER, do that.  All you're doing is confirming that the email account is active and that the person using it reads and responds to spam.
Well like Neo-Reaper said I had a lot of luck with this aswell. I managed to keep my ashrain.net address clear so far.

"Good writers are harder to find than nice breasts" - morn
#49 by Ashiran
2002-07-08 10:04:44
Ah crap forgot the quote tags :/

"Good writers are harder to find than nice breasts" - morn
#50 by Matt Davis
2002-07-08 10:09:07
http://looroll.com
I've found that you have to be careful who you unsubscribe from, but it does work in some cases.

The worst culprit for spam after viagra/porn spam for me is verisign, I can't believe how much shit they send to my inbox, renew this, special offers on that, if you unsubscribe it may take 30 days to remove you and in that time we'll have added you to our 'other' list that send exactly the same shit.

This week I will be mostly wearing no pants
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