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Taking "Civilization" too literally?
July 9th 2002, 16:52 CEST by Cliff

It's a way of playing Civilization that Sid Meier probably didn't anticipate: as a full-fledged democracy, with a Constitution, elections, the whole nine yards.

Not being a Civ3 player myself, when I first read about this (at Metafilter) it sounded like a cool, PIGlike deal -- apparently it isn't exactly: there's only one actual player, the President, who enacts the decisions that filter up through the various departments etc.  But still...

Is something like this indeed for "civfanatics" only, or does this contain the seed for some interesting future PIG dynamics?  

Bring on the online massively multiplayer Middle East simulation with full on Realm vs. Realm play...
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Home » Topic: Taking "Civilization" too literally?

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#1 by Matt Perkins
2002-07-09 17:04:21
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
Ok, everyone who voted for this topic raise your hand as you jump of the tallest building near you!

Ok, not really...don't bother raising your hand.

<Matt is cranky about useless topics>  :)

"I want a neural interface to the governments fully functional Star Wars class 'Defense, honest!" sate system. This way, anytime someone got into the games as art thing, I'd just have them killed."  - LPMiller
#2 by Greg
2002-07-09 17:05:24
I vote that the guy playing the game surrenders.

You should do, what should be done, by you.

-Ancient Japanese Proverb
#3 by UncleJeet
2002-07-09 17:13:04
I don't understand this at all, so I'm against it.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#4 by Ergo
2002-07-09 17:13:45
*yawn*

"Brian, there's a message in my Alpha Bits! It says 'OOOOOOO'!"
"Peter, those are Cheerios."
-The Family Guy
#5 by q-bert
2002-07-09 17:18:13
q_bert_2000_2000@yahoo.com
I think Civ 3 is a great game but dont exactly  understand the question
#6 by Matt Davis
2002-07-09 17:36:45
http://looroll.com
what?

This week I will be mostly wearing no pants
#7 by Dinglehoffen
2002-07-09 17:41:40
Fanny Fungus
Yes, I'm very sure pigs will like the game. The hardest part is making them learn how to use the keyboard. Mud gets everywhere, and if you can keep most of the drool off the screen, I'm sure the PIGfans will love it.

But then again, since the game is so friggin' BORING, I'm sure they might have better things to do, like rest in the mud or walk around.

NEXT TOPIC????????????

"Cause you'll be LIVIN' IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER EATIN' GOVERNMENT CHEESE!"
#8 by Matthew Gallant
2002-07-09 17:44:38
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
<DemocratusCouncilMember>
ah-babababa
</DemocratusCouncilMember>

Your choice whether this refers to the people doing this or the preceding posts.

Current market value of the Max Payne IP according to a comparison of the market capitalization of Take Two pre- and post- sale: approx. -$296,000,000.
#9 by Dinglehoffen
2002-07-09 17:45:41
Fanny Fungus
"...or does this contain the seed for some interesting future PIG dynamics?"

Uhm...I doubt the PIGS will dynamically sow their dynamic seeds during a a computer game they are playing. Usually, a male and female pig in a small fence will copulate with no game nearby...even!  

"Bring on the online massively multiplayer Middle East simulation with full on Realm vs. Realm play..."

Uh...how about a transition next time so everyone and their fine, apricot butt hair knows what the hell this means?

"Cause you'll be LIVIN' IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER EATIN' GOVERNMENT CHEESE!"
#10 by Hugin
2002-07-09 17:47:30
lmccain@nber.org
I didn't really understand the topic either, so I followed the link and read all that stuff there.  

I think it sounds tedious and slow and subject to the whole universe of things I tend not to like about multiplayer gaming.
#11 by UncleJeet
2002-07-09 18:09:34
Boobies.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#12 by Max
2002-07-09 18:12:11
http://massivebraincase.org/
Yeah, why make decisions in your own boring game when you can have a hundred other people voting on them?

Hey, did you know you have stretch marks in the corners of your mouth? Odd...
#13 by BobJustBob
2002-07-09 18:13:55
I voted yes.

I think this way of playing is rather silly. Everyone under the President would be better off playing their own game instead of vaguely, slightly, not really influencing this one. And as for the President himself, I'm sure he gets frustrated when he has some grand tactical strategy in mind and then the idiot voters send him off on a diplomatic mission to discover the Chinese.

Just remember, one of the best things about Civ3 is that the Senate no longer overrides your decision to attack someone. These fools have taken that kindness and thrown it back into Sid Meier's face. The repercussions shall be harsh.

So there.
#14 by Shadarr
2002-07-09 18:35:03
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
Are there really that many people who like to watch other people play videogames?  Cause that's all they're doing.  I have to wonder how long a turn takes, too.  Do they vote on whether to build a road first or a mine?
#15 by Ergo
2002-07-09 18:37:17
A more interesting subject:

Great article

on a subject that's been debated here a lot.

"Brian, there's a message in my Alpha Bits! It says 'OOOOOOO'!"
"Peter, those are Cheerios."
-The Family Guy
#16 by Cliff
2002-07-09 18:54:18
cps46@rcn.com
Hey don't blame me, I just submitted the thing (insert drug reference).  You people voted it in.

OK, I guess I could have been ehm, a bit clearer.  I've never played Civ3.  When I first saw the blog entry about this, for a minute I took it to mean these people were all playing, and had created an actual in-game democracy.

And the question is, could something like that actually be added to a PIG?  It would create a different dynamic than the old level treadmill -- would it be sucky, weird, boring, cool?  Could you have realm-vs-realm play with different countries run along different political lines, so that e.g. you could have an actual barbarian invasion of your nice democracy?  Etc.

Ah fuck it.  That is kind of boring.

Because sometimes, we all need a little hot camel lovin'.
#17 by Phayyde
2002-07-09 19:05:11
It's not boring.  It's simulation.

Beat to fit, paint to match.
#18 by Shadarr
2002-07-09 19:23:20
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
I think the ideal PIG is one where the players have complete control.  In this situation, I bet there would be a series of different political systems (mostly tyranny) and revolutions.  Could it become a democracy?  Sure.  But I think it would take several years of basically civil war before it would happen.

The important thing is that everyone is playing the game, and the game is designed such that they actually have things to do.  In the case of Civ, they're taking a bunch of people and trying to make them one person so they can play a single player game.  Where's the fun in that?
#19 by ProStyle
2002-07-09 20:30:42
http://prostyle.deviantart.com
For a minute I took it to mean these people were all playing, and had created an actual in-game democracy.

And the question is, could something like that actually be added to a PIG?  It would create a different dynamic than the old level treadmill -- would it be sucky, weird, boring, cool?


I'd actually be surprised if it wasn't a bad system at all. Now, i'm totally talking out of my ass here because I've never really played a PIG or a MUD or anything more than 5 seconds because the text was just too boring for me, but that's where i'm banking this. It'd be a not-very-accessible situation so I think if you had enough people who *really cared* about the game it'd be fun for all. Personally though, I'd still be bored out of my mind.
#20 by crash
2002-07-09 20:33:55
to start with the better questions (sorry Cliff, but these would have worked better in the topic):

And the question is, could something like that actually be added to a PIG?  It would create a different dynamic than the old level treadmill -- would it be sucky, weird, boring, cool?  Could you have realm-vs-realm play with different countries run along different political lines, so that e.g. you could have an actual barbarian invasion of your nice democracy?

in order:

1. yes, but it wouldn't matter a bit.

2. sucky, not weird, boring, not really cool unless Dilbert's pointy-haired boss is your role model.

3. sure, but it would just degenerate into a random gankfest, like all MMOG PvP ever has. look at AO for an example of that--you think clanners are waxing OTers because they differ politically? no, they're grid-campin and gankin 'em because they're able to target one another. it doesn't get much more complex/deep than that.

bottom line: it's difficult to have any sort of meaningful political system when your entire constituency can and does vanish 20 hours a day. successful politics depend on persistence. had a bad vote? log out. reroll. or just ignore it. what can anyone do? not much. it's really sort of silly. and the worst part is the people that will stay logged in long enough to make it... meaningful?... are exactly the kinds of people you don't want doin that kind of stuff.

i guess it'll be fun as a "ooh we have POWAH" virtual circle-jerk, but i dunno. it's just got a weird vibe to me.

Sorry, I misread your second point, remove 'unreal tournament' and replace with 'tetris' -Ryvar
#21 by Your Friend
2002-07-09 20:46:32
Dearest Friends,

  It has come to my attention that the vast majority of people who play online games don't, in fact, want to deal with complexity.  As one example of this in action, take any FPS game, whether it is SOF2, Quake(1|2|3), etc.  If you watch this game being played online you will notice that the most ardent players will play the same level over and over despite many other levels being available.  They also tend to choose one or two weapons within the game that are 'blessed', the rest being relegated to 'n00b' status (God forbid someone should use a gun other than the AK47 in SOF2 or the railgun in Quake2/3 for example).  These people want a simple experience.  They don't want to think.  And yes this extends to MMO games as well.  No matter how deep you make the game, gamers will gravitate towards repetitious easy-on-the-brain tasks like looting the big monster over and over.

   With Love,
  
     Your Friend
#22 by Post-It
2002-07-09 21:09:19
keithlee@speakeasy.net
no.

"It's a bird!  It's a plane!  Oh shit, It knows we're home!"
-Chris Johnson
#23 by Shadarr
2002-07-09 22:49:27
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
Temporary Thread Hijack:

How come ShareReactor hasn't been shut down yet?  It's exactly the kind of web site that didn't exist but people talked about as an example of how rampant warezing is.
#24 by Your Friend
2002-07-09 22:53:30
ShareReactor is a glorified link site.  Instead of links on the web it points to eDonkey links.  Since the site doesn't actually host content, its in a quasi-grey legal area.

Personally I wonder a lot more why the software/music/movie industries haven't gone after usenet providers, particularly the 'premium' services that charge $x/month for access due to their 'great binary retention'.  Usenet may be next to useless as a communications forum due to spam, etc, but it looks like its still going strong as a super warez trading system.
#25 by Greg
2002-07-09 23:00:28
Your Friend:

ShareReactor is a glorified link site.  Instead of links on the web it points to eDonkey links.  Since the site doesn't actually host content, its in a quasi-grey legal area.


I'm not sure if it is so quasi-legal anymore. Napster didn't host any files either, but they were zonked pretty badly.

But then again, it isn't unusual for the legal system to go after the enablers.

You should do, what should be done, by you.

-Ancient Japanese Proverb
#26 by Owen-san
2002-07-09 23:05:27
ojacobson@3sygma.com http://www.lionsanctuary.net
Is this the first time Your Friend has broken persona?

Will the persona stay down?

Juke Joint Jezebel's coming for my cremation
#27 by Your Friend
2002-07-09 23:13:46
Dearest Owen-san,

   Since my good friend Shadarr declared this a temporary thread hijack I thought it would be prudent to dispense with the formalities for once.  I am sorry if this has offended you.  In retrospect it may have been bad manners for me to do so.

 With Love,

   Your Friend
#28 by Post-It
2002-07-09 23:17:38
keithlee@speakeasy.net
While my feet do not garner the vast worship and praise that Caryn's do, I have had some compliments directed towards them on PC. As such I feel it is my responisbililty to inform you that this past weekend I re-broke my toe and fractured the ball of my foot. Specifically, my big toe was pushed all the way until it touched the top of my foot. It, sucked. A lot. Regardless, here is a picture of my (very) swollen and bruised foot before I had a cast put on.

"It's a bird!  It's a plane!  Oh shit, It knows we're home!"
-Chris Johnson
#29 by Max
2002-07-09 23:29:59
http://massivebraincase.org/
Awww. Here I thought there would be a cool purple bloody mangled meatbag to look at, and all I get is a bit of a swollen corn closeup?  Your broken-foot-photo-fu is weak!

Hey, did you know you have stretch marks in the corners of your mouth? Odd...
#30 by Creole Ned
2002-07-09 23:37:21
I would rather see Mr. Nutty post under his original account.

I voted no on the topic.

I have nothing else to add.

"I don't bemoan the great paste" - LPMiller
#31 by jafd
2002-07-09 23:43:29
Minor annoucement - there are 3 Crap Perusers playing in a MTGO league right now, with a couple other people mulling over the idea. Anyone interested has about 18 hours or so to decide if they want to participate.

just FYI. I'm sure most of you are only half-geek, so...

"You go to HELL! You go to HELL and you DIE!!"
#32 by Ergo
2002-07-09 23:44:17
MTGO?

"Brian, there's a message in my Alpha Bits! It says 'OOOOOOO'!"
"Peter, those are Cheerios."
-The Family Guy
#33 by Warren Marshall
2002-07-09 23:45:23
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Magic : The Gathering Online?!?!

*quietly weeping*

"It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
#34 by Ergo
2002-07-09 23:46:14
Look at it this way, Warren--at least you won't smell your opponent.

"Brian, there's a message in my Alpha Bits! It says 'OOOOOOO'!"
"Peter, those are Cheerios."
-The Family Guy
#35 by Shadarr
2002-07-09 23:46:45
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
Magic: The Gathering Online.
#36 by Shadarr
2002-07-09 23:47:10
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
Christ you people are fast.
#37 by Shadarr
2002-07-09 23:58:03
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
Back to ShareReactor for a second.  The thing I find wierd is that it's basically exactly like all the warez sites I saw when I was just a lad that linked from the web to private FTP sites.  They usually got shut down pretty fast (although if you wrote down the address, the FTP server was still there).
#38 by Greg
2002-07-10 00:03:23
Shadarr,

I see that with ROM sites, though usually the link sites are up, but the actual sites with the ROMs are dead. So some people have started getting smart, by going after where the actual files are located, and not just some page with links to them.

Though I suppose most of the dead sites are solely traffic related, as GeoCities and the rest of the bunch don't appreciate all the bandwidth used.

You should do, what should be done, by you.

-Ancient Japanese Proverb
#39 by jjohnsen
2002-07-10 00:03:32
http://www.johnsenclan.com
Sharereactor is just the list though right?  Napster's servers kept track of everyone, and could block them out, or block certian songs.  Sharereactor doesn't have this control.  

It hasn't been shut down yet, but the only thing that seems to be getting updated lately is the porn.

The incredible insights you've given on many topics have brightened all of our lives and touched us in ways we can never fully describe.
#40 by jafd
2002-07-10 00:12:18
This should be able to block Warren indefinitely.

Say hello to someone's new friend!

"You go to HELL! You go to HELL and you DIE!!"
#41 by Dinglehoffen
2002-07-10 00:13:26
Fanny Fungus
Who cares about THAT?

The only important thing is that my computer WILL run Doom 3.

Suck it down.  (John Romero)

"Cause you'll be LIVIN' IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER EATIN' GOVERNMENT CHEESE!"
#42 by jjohnsen
2002-07-10 00:15:46
http://www.johnsenclan.com
Mine won't.  Time to ask Santa for an upgrade for Christmas.

The incredible insights you've given on many topics have brightened all of our lives and touched us in ways we can never fully describe.
#43 by Dinglehoffen
2002-07-10 00:20:51
Fanny Fungus
jafd:

Why such an attraction to suicide? I mean, here you are living, telling everyone else to kill themselves and showing them how to do it? Is that really all you've chosen to offer the world? Wow.

"Cause you'll be LIVIN' IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER EATIN' GOVERNMENT CHEESE!"
#44 by InsideWhat'sLeft Behind
2002-07-10 00:22:41
Does this have anything to do with those MMOGs? A.K.A. Obsessive-compulsive disorder toys. If so, I'm against it.

"It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
#45 by Shadarr
2002-07-10 00:24:16
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
Well, ShareReactor could certainly be forced to remove links to any content they don't own the copywrite to, which is all of it.  I think the Napster parallel is bang on.  Neither of them actually hosted any files, but both provided access and searching.  The thing that gets me is how utterly blatant it is.  Say what you will about nocd cracks (I love them), but actual ISO images have no legal niche on the internet.
#46 by jjohnsen
2002-07-10 00:26:50
http://www.johnsenclan.com
What about those thousands of people that bought the game, but the disk got scratched, or lost?   It only there for them right?

The incredible insights you've given on many topics have brightened all of our lives and touched us in ways we can never fully describe.
#47 by Shadarr
2002-07-10 00:34:38
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
I know that the software companies want you to believe that you're just licensing the software, but I happen to believe you're buying it.  In which case, it's similar to buying a CD or a toaster or a car.  The manufacturer bares no responsibility for your stupidity, and if you break it you don't get another one for free.
#48 by webrunner
2002-07-10 01:20:15
webrunner@adventurers-comic.com http://www.adventurers-comic.com
occasionally it's not due to stupidity.  FF7PC's disks seemed to scratch if you looked at them wrong, and my Starcraft CD got scratched by my CD drive from overuse.

You know, some people say things about ambiguity.
#49 by Phayyde
2002-07-10 01:24:40
If consumers would educate themselves and make purchases based on the best overall DEAL rather than based on the shiniest packaging, then fair use would be properly enabled and sold as the feature it should be, rather than outlawed, tainted and disabled.

Beat to fit, paint to match.
#50 by Your Friend
2002-07-10 01:29:36
Dearest Phayyde,

People do make purchases based on the best overall deal.  That's why they get warez and mp3s, free is a pretty good deal.

With Warmest Love,

    Your Friend
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