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Genie Shoved Back Into Bottle; Genie Vows Vengeance Against Harsh World
July 1st 2002, 14:30 CEST by LPMiller

Hey look! The RIAA has had the bright idea of charging royalties for used CD sales.

Double Dipping, anyone?

No, not a warez thread.

Ok, I don't care where you stand on p2p downloads, I don't care if you are John Law or John McPirate, this is bogus. Quite simply, it's double dipping.

I don't care what the product is. Except in cases of public safety or national security, it has been traditional that once a product has been sold, that's it.  You made your money, make new product.  But according to MP3 Newswire and the San Diego Union-Tribune, that's just not good enough for the record industry. They want you for life. The RIAA likes the idea not of ownership, but renting their product. What's yours isn't.

No one else gets royalties for used sales. Not cars, not books, not that old china set from your late Aunt Beth. In fact, there are laws against double dipping. Part of this might be considered a response to P2P file trading - though there has been plenty of evidence of late that file traders have actually boosted CD sales, not hurt it - but really, it's just another revenue stream. Business wise, it's free gold. I'm sure Random House would love royalties from your local dust filled used book store. Heck, if they could get royalties every time you got a book from the library, I doubt they'd bitch.

But used sales have been around since the first Garage. Used LP/CD/Tape sales have been around for decades.

Seems to me the record industry is begging to be ripped off. Is that the way things will go now? Ownership turning into grabbing the neighbors chainsaw on not returning it, as long as you pay for it? Anyone else think things are just getting a little silly?
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#1 by Darkseid-D
2002-07-01 14:34:14
rogerboal@hotmail.com
First post.

good luck RIAA


not going to happen.




Ds

Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
#2 by LPMiller
2002-07-01 14:38:49
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
2nd post, first thread EVAR!!

I roxxers!!!

I believe I can fly......urk.
#3 by Matt Perkins
2002-07-01 14:52:42
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
course you're not spiffy enough to get first post in your thread...

"You're asking for humans to be considerate and think of others, Caryn. Don't you know that's reaching a little far?" - Bailey
#4 by jjohnsen
2002-07-01 15:08:21
http://www.johnsenclan.com
Is it even possible for the RIAA to keep track of what used cd's are bought and sold?  What about ebay?

The incredible insights you've given on many topics have brightened all of our lives and touched us in ways we can never fully describe.
#5 by Leslie Nassar
2002-07-01 15:36:00
http://departmentofinternets.com
OMG RFID tags! EOD! EOD!

i like monkeys.  are you a monkey?
#6 by haplo
2002-07-01 15:52:12
maybe taco bell will start charging a tax for the...by-product...made from eating there :)

hey look, a 3 headed wookie!
#7 by Warren Marshall
2002-07-01 15:54:05
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
jjohnsen

I wouldn't be surprised to see eBay create new rules banning the sale of used music.  They already do it (supposedly) for warez'd software, although I still see tons of Commodore "disk packs" being sold.  Hundreds of disks sold under the context of "spares" ... but they may have software on them.  Heh.

"It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
#8 by Fallon
2002-07-01 16:01:42
http://www.fagnews.com
Let's talk about warez.

I'd feel more fulfilled making Christmas cards with the mentally ill.
#9 by mgns
2002-07-01 16:14:57
Let's not.

professional philosophical level design monkey.
#10 by Greg
2002-07-01 16:25:58
If the RIAA starts charging royalties for used CDs, does that mean they will start lowering new CD prices?

That's a rhetorical question, and the answer is no...

Oh, I guess that last sig don't make sense anymore...
#11 by "Dev"
2002-07-01 16:33:12
deleted deleted
Its a fine day when multi-million dollar global corporations start trolling as well.
#12 by Matt Davis
2002-07-01 16:52:10
http://looroll.com
RIAA will just have to learn the hard way... by me slashing my music spending budget in half and therefore bringing the downfall of all the major music companies overnight.

This week I will be mostly wearing pants
#13 by Matt Davis
2002-07-01 17:00:34
http://looroll.com
Seriously though, this is another avenue that they think they can suddenly get massive revenue from but in reality they'll do very poorly out of it. Wouldn't be surprised if a lot of 2nd hand music shops got together and made a claim against it tell them they were 70 years too late in trying to enforce it.

I remember hearing somewhere that the RIAA want to add DRM to all seperates equipment so new music thats released is tied to that device, that'll be handy when you want to use it in your car stereo.

This week I will be mostly wearing pants
#14 by Stralutia
2002-07-01 17:01:26
stralutia@hotmail.com None
So I guess Toyota should get a cut when I decide to sell my Camry.

I think not.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that a long time ago book publishing houses attempted to do this sort of thing to used bookstores, and were promptly told to go to hell and die.  Quickly.  

I did a little search on google and this is what I came up with on the matter:

"The "Doctrine of First Sale" (Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 109) [says] that a copyright holder's distribution rights of a specific copy of a work ends at the first sale. The purchaser of that copy is free to sell, lease, loan or give away the copy without violating the copyright owner's exclusive right to distribute the work."
#15 by haplo
2002-07-01 17:20:01
maybe someone should forward that little tid bit to the RIAA

hey look, a 3 headed wookie!
#16 by Max
2002-07-01 17:27:28
http://massivebraincase.org/
Quoting current law is pointless, as when the RIAA starts buying judges the way they already buy politicians, precedent and prior art will have zero chance at stopping them.

Anyone want to buy a used copy of Money Makes The World Go 'Round before it's forbidden?

Hey, did you know you have stretch marks in the corners of your mouth? Odd...
#17 by Matt Davis
2002-07-01 17:32:29
http://looroll.com
Perhaps the RIAA should tell it's respective corporate members to drop the prices on older titles, not up them, the Beatles older titles and Pink Floyd titles here are generally an absolute rip-off as they're more than when they were in the released chart (for pink floyd anyway).

This week I will be mostly wearing pants
#18 by Bailey
2002-07-01 17:36:07
As the only albums I buy these days are to support bands I truly respect (nuzzling latest GWAR album) I'm having a hard time being motivated about this. Live music's better anyway, and unless you're going through ticketmaster, minimal rapage ensues.

Functioning Alcoholic: (fngkshnng lk-hlk) n. 1. A person who isn't trying very hard.
#19 by Ed
2002-07-01 17:41:12
coj@funkatron.com http://www.funkatron.com
There was talk of this back in 93, when I was working at a record store.  I remember Garth Brooks being one of the artists who was peeved about the growing used CD business.

I will say that record stores don't endear themselves to the labels when they sell their cutouts/promos for $10 a pop in the used CD rack.

i need assertion devils inside my eye won't let up any motion
i need a surgeon devils inside won't cut me any slack
#20 by Greg
2002-07-01 17:51:08
Methinks Garth Brooks should work on his songwriting skillz if he is pissed about used CDs. 2 decents songs combined with 10 tracks of crap does not a good album make.

Oh, I guess that last sig don't make sense anymore...
#21 by Ashiran
2002-07-01 19:05:33
Didn't we have this discussion some time ago? Or was it about books then?

"Good writers are harder to find than nice breasts" - morn
#22 by Charles
2002-07-01 19:18:52
www.bluh.org
I think it was about SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP

...is the new SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP.
#23 by Ed
2002-07-01 19:51:15
coj@funkatron.com http://www.funkatron.com
Books.  and shutting up sir.

i need assertion devils inside my eye won't let up any motion
i need a surgeon devils inside won't cut me any slack
#24 by Duality
2002-07-01 19:59:04
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
We had a discussion like it.

I'm personally glad that the only music I buy is from quality bootleggers in Taiwan.

-Jon
#25 by BobJustBob
2002-07-01 20:11:55
All this will do is cause more people to download music off the Internet. And at the end of the day, that means we all win.

As I said before, if new cds were $5 and new dvds were $10, I would spend obscene amounts of money on them. Stupid RIAA.

So there.
#26 by Bailey
2002-07-01 20:19:20
Sonmay is the show.

Functioning Alcoholic: (fngkshnng lk-hlk) n. 1. A person who isn't trying very hard.
#27 by bago
2002-07-01 22:31:23
manga_Rando@hotmail.com
uhm... no.

iamelectro
#28 by Bailey
2002-07-01 23:52:28
Name one better!

Functioning Alcoholic: (fngkshnng lk-hlk) n. 1. A person who isn't trying very hard.
#29 by Bezzy
2002-07-02 00:47:14
painberry@hotmail.com http://www.antifactory.org
Next we'll be forced to wear ear plugs that filter out music and copyrighted sounds that we haven't bought yet. Jesus Christ on a chocolate cake.

The best way to create an award winning game is to write the acceptance speech first.
#30 by jafd
2002-07-02 01:17:57
"When it won't help to slow down, pour it on"

Is there any possible way the RIAA could flip a 180 in the public's mind, and become the "good guy"? Any way at all?

Sure, they talk about it, but I doubt any of the real string-pullers in the music business think that's possible to any realistic degree. Their window of opportunity to get Internet distribution under their thumb vanished before Napster did.

They've got a pantsload of money; why not roll the dice? A good judge might float to the top, if they pump enough hot air and money into the process. So they believe.

It's clear that something needs to be done to address the situation... who's doing anything besides the RIAA and "pirates"? You can trust both of those parties to take the route of extremes, to be sure.

"You go to HELL! You go to HELL and you DIE!!"
#31 by Charles
2002-07-02 02:52:44
www.bluh.org
I just can't, for the life of me, see how much different downloading MP3s is supposed to be from copying tapes, burning audio cds.  

Before I knew about MP3s, I'd be making copies of tapes and CDs.  If I didn't want to buy something, then I just didn't.  I'm sure it's the same way for everyone else.  So why is it a magical problem now?

Nowadays, a kid presses search and download.  Five years ago, you searched your friends for a cd or tape, plops it in the stereo/computer, and presses copy.

...is the new SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP.
#32 by bishop
2002-07-02 02:58:16
http://www.darkintel.org/00FF00/
Ease of use for EVERYONE, not just people with 'connections'?

Presents a massive, large scale situation, where it was just maybe half of the people now?

May the end of the world be warm and smoldering.
At least for some of you.
#33 by VeeSPIKE
2002-07-02 03:06:10
#31 - Nova Z

So why is it a magical problem now?


Simple. Scope of distribution.

Prior to internet and MP3 compression - it was somewhat more difficult to pirate an album to a large number of people. Hand to hand piracy, while a problem, was not one they could effectively stop. Too small a target, and hard to find. You let 5 or 6 people copy your album, and it stops there - hard for them to stop that. Even large piracy operations are somewhat complicated - you had to have the materials, sources, and distribution lines - all of which are not available to the average idiot. Now, 1/2 the United States has the ability, if they have the knowledge, time and inclination, to get a free copy of an album from one person, with no direct connection between the two. That - rightly - concerns them. Actually, that scares the shit out of them. Their cash cow has an arterial hemorrhage, and they are doing whatever they think they need to do in order to stop the bleeding.
#34 by Charles
2002-07-02 03:17:43
www.bluh.org
But if everyone just gets a copy from their friends, how is that any different from large scale distribution?  If people who wouldn't pay for it then, don't pay for it now, I fail to see the difference.

I see what you are saying however, I just don't think it's as applicable as you think.

...is the new SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP.
#35 by LPMiller
2002-07-02 03:23:07
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Keep in mind, recent studies are indicating that they AREN'T bleeding due to P2P, but are bleedind due to poor product and a pissy economy.

It's been said before - produce a product worth my money, you'll get my money. Doesn't matter how easy it is to download; most folks still like having the CD in hand.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#36 by Warren Marshall
2002-07-02 03:35:07
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
But if everyone just gets a copy from their friends, how is that any different from large scale distribution?  If people who wouldn't pay for it then, don't pay for it now, I fail to see the difference.

It's ease of theft though ... finding a file on eDonkey is about as simple as breathing.  Finding a friend who has the tape you want, getting together with them so you can borrow it, etc is a LOT more effort.

The net result is the same ... the scope is dramatically increased however because of how easy it is.

Not to bring up warez, but it will reach similar levels of attention once most of the world is on broadband.  It will get much worse before it gets better (if ever).

"It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
#37 by Charles
2002-07-02 04:27:27
www.bluh.org
It's more effort, true, but if the end result is that people who won't pay don't pay... is it really all that different?

Regardless, you are right.  It will get worse before it gets better.  Half the problem there, is convenience.  Why get up and go to the store when you can just click 'send to donkey'?  

The common problem between game, music, and video piracy, is that physical distribution is, for the most part, a thing of the past.  I should be able to buy and download everything that I want.  I mean, I like having the original cd so I can delete mp3s for space or whatnot, but I can back things up myself if I need to.  If I could pay 10$ and download any album I wanted online, I'd be one fucking happy camper.  As it is, half the music I listen to is freakin hard to get in a physical format.  Rare cds, low run albums, labels that went out of business.  

Bleh.

...is the new SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP.
#38 by Warren Marshall
2002-07-02 04:38:09
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
No kidding.  I just bought a rare speed metal CD off of eBay.  I paid more than I really wanted to, but there's just nowhere else to get it.  Lame.

"It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
#39 by George Broussard
2002-07-02 04:39:41
georgeb@3drealms.com
You can't restrict people selling what they already bought.  It's not even legal.  If you try to make it part of some user license when you open a CD, somebody will class action sue you.

You could never enforce this in a million years anyway.  If this ever did pass, then everyone from toaster makers to lawnmowers would try it.

It's just stupid beyond belief.

If I buy something and want to turn around and sell it for $2 on ebay....fuck you.  You already got paid.
#40 by Scrozzy
2002-07-02 04:45:43
No kidding.  I just bought a rare speed metal CD off of eBay.  I paid more than I really wanted to, but there's just nowhere else to get it.  Lame.


I'm sure I could re-create that music for you. It'd be crackle-free and CD quality, but you'll need to buy me the right hardware for the job (some trash cans, microphone, a fat 'n' hairy man, and a Squire Strat copy with lightning motif). I'll then sell it to you royalty free.
#41 by Charles
2002-07-02 04:51:28
www.bluh.org
Just out of curiosity Warren, what band?

I find that metal and experimental electronic are the two most difficult kinds of music to get your hands on.

...is the new SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP.
#42 by Dinglehoffen
2002-07-02 05:03:41
Fanny Fungus
"It's been said before - produce a product worth my money, you'll get my money. Doesn't matter how easy it is to download; most folks still like having the CD in hand."

After forking out $40 for Wheel of Time, I learned that the producers of games know when they have a piece of shit. They'll put the best level on the demo in order to dangle the carrot, and then after you bite they'll hand you the biggest piece of garbage you can carry. I haven't warezed games and don't plan to, but if anything has Warren Marshall's name on it, I'll waREZ THE DAMN GAME THREE  HUNDRED TIMES, burn it and sell it until I get my $40 back PLUS. That game was complete CRAP.

"Cause you'll be LIVIN' IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER EATIN' GOVERNMENT CHEESE!"
#43 by lurvy
2002-07-02 05:16:16
lurvas_the_dog@yahoo.com
Well spoken.

Fjortis is not an age but a state of mind.
#44 by Warren Marshall
2002-07-02 05:35:21
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
George
You can't restrict people selling what they already bought.  It's not even legal.

Yet.  RIAA has deep pockets ... that's most of what it takes to get laws changed.

Nova Z
Just out of curiosity Warren, what band?

Razor.  They were a local (Toronto, ON, Canada) speed metal band when I was growing up.  I had all their tapes, but those are long gone now ...

"It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
#45 by Post-It
2002-07-02 05:50:04
keithlee@speakeasy.net
Speed metal, what an odd form of music. I listened to some of it fir awhile just to give it a try, but I just couldn't get in to it. I still have a couple ATR CDs sitting around here somewhere, and they were the the only "speed metal" band I could get myself to listen to on a semi-regular basis.

Nevertheless, I try and be open to new sounds.

Looking up at my playist at a glance I see:

The Seatbelts - "Rush"
Neptunes - "Lapdance"
White Zombie - "I'm your Boogie Man"
The Chemical Brothers - "Galaxy Bounce"
Radiohead - "Everything in its Right Place"
Animaniacs - "The Monkey Song"
Mathew Sweet -"Girlfriend"
The Alpha Conspiracy - "Girl From Ipanema <Live re-mix>" (Thanks for turning me on to them Caryn)
Ben Harper - "Always Have to steal my Kisses From You"
Asian Dub Foundation - "Jericho"
etc.

Speaking of new sounds, what band/style of mucis, the first time you ever heard it, just made you sit back, struck by the sounds. Was it the music or the time and place. I'm always interested to know what music really strikes a chord (sorry) with people when they heard it fir the first time, it's usually worth listening to.

"It's a bird!  It's a plane!  Oh shit, It knows we're home!"
-Chris Johnson
#46 by InsideWhat'sLeft Behind
2002-07-02 05:52:59
It's not illegal to download MP3s of copyrighted material, nor burning copies of friends' CDs in Sweden (not yet at least). So suck it, RIAA! Oh, wrong discussion... The consensus still is that RIAA is the devil and we all know it. Or rather, it's the 5 major record companies' fault, because they more or less own RIAA and half of the world with their immense monetary power.

"It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
#47 by Caryn
2002-07-02 06:09:03
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
Post-It:

The Alpha Conspiracy - "Girl From Ipanema <Live re-mix>" (Thanks for turning me on to them Caryn)


Sho' thang, but part of that thanks goes to chris, who was the one who introduced ME to them. New album is out really soon, and I've got a bunch of his mp3's if you want them (email me), from stuff that he's released on CDs to stuff you can't find. Andrew released all the mp3's from "cipher" shortly after the album's released and he encourages distribution of them as long as you don't claim ownership or alter them.

"Deathmatch rules, nobody plays coop, and people who play single player are regarded as a little strange. Just like real life." submitted by astute reader Mark
#48 by Warren Marshall
2002-07-02 06:20:55
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Post-It
Speaking of new sounds, what band/style of mucis,

Quite honestly, the music that hit me hardest was speed metal.  I was in high school and one of my friends came over with a tape of this band I HAD to hear.  That was my first introduction to Metallica ("Kill 'Em All").  After that I started checking out other speed metal bands, and one of them was Razor.  They were amazing.  Perfect amount of distortion, unintelligible lyrics and grinding guitars to piss off parents.  I mean, it's impossible for parents to put up with a band that incoporates chainsaws into their music.  It just is.

"It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
#49 by Warren Marshall
2002-07-02 06:22:11
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
These days I listen to just about every kind of music there is.  Lately I've been listening to a mix of Fear Factory and Sheryl Crow.  I can't wait for that Razor CD to get here ... Mmm ...

"It's pretty common for pussies, dumbasses, and their families to blame their problems on vague influences like the media and society. The truth is, fuck you."
#50 by LPMiller
2002-07-02 06:34:23
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Queen, first time I heard Queen I thought...damn,that's the stuff. Same with Devo, and Billy Idol, but I think Queen most of all.

Of course now, I'll listen to anything. I find myself getting into Default, Saliva, POD, bands I wouldn't have cared for a few years back. It's like the older I get, the wider ranging my tastes become.

I believe I can fly......urk.
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