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Back to the .plan wars!
June 2nd 2000, 20:37 CEST by andy

Two years ago, Paul Steed and Brian Hook made our pathetic lives that little bit brighter by using their .plan files to settle personal disputes. It made for some good entertainment at the time but thank goodness those days are over...



Because now, instead of the two loveable clowns that have since gone on to bask in the cold glow of obscurity and unemployment, we've got John Carmack and Kevin Cloud -- two of Id's owners -- battling it out in public. You make the popcorn, I'll bring the drinks!

Okay, so ding ding, round one. Yesterday's .plan update by John Carmack was very clear on why he felt Paul Steed had been sacked:

Kevin and Adrian fired Paul Steed in retaliation, over my opposition.

Paul has certainly done things in the past that could be grounds for dismissal, but this was retaliatory for him being among the "conspirators".

I happen to think Paul was damn good at his job, and that he was going to be one of the most valuable contributors to DOOM.

Not so, claims Kevin Cloud in his own .plan update today:

Although Adrian and I alone made the decision to fire Paul, it is the general opinion among the rest of id that we made the right decision.

Paul was not fired as a result of his support for DOOM.

I've seen several comments in the last day from people who thought John Carmack's comments signalled the beginning of the end for Id. What a load of rubbish, I thought, we're just getting a sneak peak at some internal wrangling. Nothing to worry about.

But now we've got one of the company's other two owners effectively calling Carmack a liar, and instead of settling it privately he too has decided to go public. That is NOT a good sign. That's a very, very bad sign.

Unless this is all some horrible wind-up, the situation now is that John Carmack is working on a new DOOM engine, Adrian Carmack and Kevin Cloud are reluctantly doing the art for the game when they'd rather be doing something else, and tensions are running so high that instead of sorting things out over coffee and some mild verbal abuse, two of the company's owners have decided to go public with their disagreements.

Beginning of the end? Let's hope not. But...

C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "Darkseid"
2000-06-02 20:39:51
Darkseid-D@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
First ;)

I thought Clouds .plan was a very smooth counter



more going on than meets the eye



but an id _wanting_ to do Doom ... hrm


Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#2 by "Dethstryk"
2000-06-02 20:49:24
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
Firing an employee for doing what they are doing now? Unless it continues on and starts to get very un-professional like, I wouldn't compare it to that. Similiar, but by a long shot.

And like I said in one of these previous threads, there is no way this thing is going to end with the two of them (maybe more will get involved) spouting statements that are at the opposite ends of the spectrum.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#3 by "Valeyard"
2000-06-02 20:50:34
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
I didn't see it as a .plan war at all.  What I saw was a little glimpse at an internal struggle that appears to have worked itself out.

Maybe Paul was fired for being one of the conspirators, but that certainly wasn't the only reason.  I have a feeling that there was some internal foot-stomping and chest-thumping going on during the argument over the DOOM game and Kevin and Adrian just saw that as the "last straw".

This is a business, and it's going to have internal arguments just like any other business.  There will always be personality conflicts, disagreements over the "right" thing to do or the "right" way to do it.  It happens.

The only difference here is that SOME of this argument became public knowledge.  When you consider the two big decisions made, this was ALL going to be public soon.

Maybe John's .plan update was an attempt to be fair to Paul and prevent the typical speculation that would have been posted at sites like PlanetCrap.  That would explain why Kevin had to update to clarify the situation.

Either way, I've got a new game to add to my "watch" list.

-Valeyard
#4 by "Apache"
2000-06-02 20:53:36
apache@warzone.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
.plan wars rock!
#5 by "OldUncleTed"
2000-06-02 21:04:15
Fifth

sorry   but what does
 .plan
mean?
#6 by "flamethrower"
2000-06-02 21:09:44
flamey_at_evil@hotmail.com http://flamethrower.evilavatar.com
Andy - I have to agree - I was wondering if it's all some kind of huge wind-up. The question is, what POSSIBLE reason would they have?

Answer - to gauge public reaction to DOOM III Arena? [snigger]

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#7 by "Morn"
2000-06-02 21:32:59
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Another interesting aspect of this is the actual use of the .plan files... imagine telling someone <i>outside</i> the gaming industry how game developers make their internal affairs public, with quadzillions of fanpages copying every update only a couple of seconds later.

The gaming industry (and scene) is... funny. :-)

- Morn
#8 by "Ryan Greene"
2000-06-02 21:33:08
Random (related) bits form my head an fromm things I've read.

Paul had stated previousy that he wants to do animated stuff in Hollywood.

The MMP JC wants to make is nowhere near possible given todays bandwidth limitations.

Paul Steed has been known to rile people up.

Making a new rendering engine that will play nice with the new networking engine (rhater than tacking it into the "old" one from Q3 may be easier.

Doom had massive computer controled hordes. How will modern rendering tech work when that is attempted now? Why not make a ggame that will let me have massive hordes on screen, so we can see what that looks like before we go with an online product?

All the above is just mee guessign at what the various motives are for going with Doom rather than a MMORPG.
#9 by "Jafd"
2000-06-02 21:34:47
jafd@whatthefuck.com
<b>#0</b> "andy" wrote...
<quote>Beginning of the end? Let's hope not.</quote>

I disagree.

I don't see any particular advantage to Id staying together as a company. If they split up, JC is still going to code engines, certainly working with nearly anyone he wants to code engines with, no matter whether his company is called "Id" or "Ego" or "Endocrine" or wtf ever. Doesn't matter.

There's no disagreement that Id's strength is its tech. But think back to all the single player stuff they've ever done... ALL OF IT was severely lacking.

I know, I know, yes I hear you chanting "Doom... Doom..." like a pack of mewling ferrets. Guess what? Doom was pretty insipid. While blowing the crap out of waves and waves of monsters is remarkably entertaining (and much more than 50% of the entertainment in Doom came from the remarkable technology)... if it was supremely entertaining, you'd be seeing dozens of moderately-to-wildly succesful games today that provide the same thing.

Doom was a fantastic game at a fantastic time. That time is past. I don't think that making a follow up to doom is a great idea; but it surely is an <i>inevitable</i> idea. I always hated the way I couldn't look up or look down in Doom; when Heretic came along I jumped ship lickety-split. Remaking Doom with the q3 engine sounds like a great idea to me... same maps and everything, just with updated tech. I'm hoping that is what Doom3 is going to be, actually. It wouldn't take long to make, that's for sure. But if they're going to try and make some brand new game "in the tradition of Doom" it's going to suck major portions of ass (although it will still sell gangbusters, of course).

Many of the people who worked on Doom and made it great are gone, a substantial portion of Id are working on Doom3 under duress, tensions at Id are... uhm, tense, I guess (currently I suspect this is all an elaborate hoax designed to grab mindshare and slingshot Steed into an even better position than he could have gotten otherwise), Doom wasn't all that hot of a game to begin with... godblessit, that's a whole lot of deadwood, eh?

JC said in that nice DK writeup, "Shipping a game is hard even under the best of circumstances." Doesn't sound to me like these are the best of circumstances (unless it really is a hoax, in which case they OWN US ALL :) at all. And even if these were the best of circumstances... Id hasn't been able to put out a decent single player game ANYway. What makes anyone think they're just going to pull a brilliant game out of their asses now? Because Doom is such a fantastic, intricate, sophisticated property? Bwa ha ha yah right.

So, I say... the hell with it. Let them split up and find other things to do apart from each other that pleases each of them. Would it be such a horror? Cripes, Looking Glass wanted to stay together and couldn't, Id is staying together and... shouldn't?

Of course my opinion doesn't matter for squat; but my point is, so what if Id is on the verge of death? J. Carmack would still be coding engines if he were by himself, most likely. I mean it isn't like Looking Glass, where the company is making great games <i>right now</i> and their dissolution spells the death of future promising products. (I'm not a big fan of Thief personally, although I recognize its genius, but what was spoken about Thief 3 gave me night sweats.)

If Id Software (the company, not the people) fell into a black hole tomorrow... what difference would it make, is what I'm asking? We would still have John making engines. The Doom legacy would inevitably show up in a game at some point; and you just know that no matter how good or bad it is, there will be those who love it no matter how much it sucks and those who hate it now matter how much like the original it is... so just, what, exactly, other than really nice technology, does Id have to offer the gaming public?

It's not like any of them would have any trouble getting jobs.

If my previous theory is wrong, here's my backup hypothesis: unless Doom3 is an outrageously outstanding game, it will be Id's last game.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#10 by "Sgt Hulka"
2000-06-02 21:39:40
sgt_hulka@yahoo.com http://www.hulka.com
DOOMNESIA - By the guys who brought you Quake III Arena Beyond Thunderdome.
================================================

Firing Steed: Their biz, probably justified in someones eyes, it always is. The whole mess is really none of my bees wax. I don't find it interesting at all, but that's just because I have a don't give a shit attitude I guess. I've been fired from many jobs, it sucks, but you get over it.  Actually, I think I've been fired from more jobs than I've quit.  

================================================
Trust No One.  Where're all the White Women At?
#11 by "Darkseid"
2000-06-02 21:43:45
Darkseid-D@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
Ladies, Gentlemen, Jeet ... and lowtax.

I hereby postulate, that Half Life was in fact, Doom 3


1) Enemies coming through portal

Doom, Check
Half life, Check

2) 'Friends' became possesed and turned upon you

Doom, Check
Half life, Check

3)  Shotgun

Doom, Check
Half Life, Check

4) Find card/key for door

Doom, Check
Half Life, Check

5) Tech setting of many levels

Doom, Check
Half Life, Check

6) Teleporting enemies into strange locations to attack you

Doom, Check
Half Life, Check

7) Deathmatch

Doom, Check
Half Life, Check

8) Pistol as low end projectile weapon

Doom, Check
Half Life, Check

9) Shoot to blow up objects

Doom, Check (barrels)
half Life (explosive crates/barrels) Check

0) Teleportation as a game/puzzle feature

Doom, Check
Half Life Check



Therefore, the point is moot, Doom 3 has already been done in all but name......



Now, for Doom Evolution, I would see things as single player, borrowing from Half Life / System Shock 2 / Aliens Vs Predator... Not just run down this corridor and shoot 20 imps..

perhaps extend the interactivity, this door is locked, blow through it, hack it open, crawl up and over the vent above it, pick the lock ......

This way you could have DOOM universe game you COULD play as a pure shoot em all, or a more cerebral challenge...


DS<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#12 by "flamethrower"
2000-06-02 21:44:08
flamey_at_evil@hotmail.com http://flamethrower.evilavatar.com
Of course, if Doom X is given poor-to-mediocre reviews... JC will be hearing 'told you so'.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#13 by "PainKilleR-[CE]"
2000-06-02 21:50:23
painkiller@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com/tftech/
<b>#11</b> "Darkseid" wrote...
<QUOTE>I hereby postulate, that Half Life was in fact, Doom 3 </QUOTE>

Doom: kept me playing for months, no matter how many times I finished it, until Doom 2 came out ;)

Half-life: puts me to sleep, no matter how many times I TRY to play it and enjoy it

Doom was an ACTION game, Half-life was mostly an ADVENTURE game, without the thoughtfulness that usually goes into an adventure game, basically like Tomb Raider in 1st person with aliens instead of bats, wolves, & bears.

Half-life: jumping puzzles
Doom: does anyone remember spending much time jumping in Doom? I know you CAN jump in Doom, but it never came to my attention the way it did in HL.

Yes, I know a lot of people truly enjoyed the HL single player and that the game's engine brought some new things to the table. Personally, I wouldn't have spent more than a couple of hours on the game if they hadn't released TFC for it.

-PainKilleR-[CE]
#14 by "Jafd"
2000-06-02 21:51:08
jafd@whatthefuck.com
<b>#11</b> "Darkseid" wrote...
<QUOTE>This way you could have DOOM universe game you COULD play as a pure shoot em all, or a more cerebral challenge... </QUOTE>

I think you are right. But I don't think Id could do it.

I'd rather see them just make engines, and have little subdivisions in-house that make games with the engines. There's too much hoopla about Id's games, when only their technology means anything.

Additionally, if they had little subdivisions, think of the .plan flame wars! An added entertainment bonus!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#15 by "Desiato"
2000-06-02 21:56:14
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com
I think the best game would be a development company simulator.

Think about it -- watch your bottom line, keep surly artists in check -- and you'd better keep an eye on your satisfaction index on the websites...

UH OH!! Random .plan file release by one of your underlings!! *WOOOP WOOOP WOOOP (red klaxon, with twirling light)*

Damage control? Or do you make a move to discredit your bosses/partners?

Dammit!!! We've released a gold master and someone already upped it to a 0-day warez site!! CRAP! Increase CD authentication slider, but watch that user frustration level.....

Now THAT would be a good game.


Desiato
#16 by "loonyboi"
2000-06-02 21:58:22
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#5</b> "OldUncleTed" wrote...
<QUOTE>Fifth

sorry but what does
.plan
mean? </QUOTE>

It's a *nix thing. Each mail account has a file created that is listed as ".plan". When you use the command: "finger email@domain.com" you pull back the .plan file. Carmack started off the whole .plan thing back in the early days of Quake, by posting his work log into there.

Soon, other id folk started using it, and the real topper was when .plan tracking became automated with the creation of QuakeFinger (newsies used to have to manually finger each id address on a regular basis). Once that happened, it became an exponential thing, with every company starting to add them.

Which brings us back to doe.

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "Happy cow"
2000-06-02 22:06:18
happycow30@hotmail.com http://happycow.home.icq.com
Looniboi is Da Man...... Er,boi?

Happy Cow (I mean that in a nice way Loon, don't look for offence)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#18 by "crash"
2000-06-02 22:26:47
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<i>Doom: does anyone remember spending much time jumping in Doom? I know you CAN jump in Doom, but it never came to my attention the way it did in HL.</i>

er. the reason you don't remember it is because you couldn't. :)
#19 by "PainKilleR-[CE]"
2000-06-02 22:35:05
painkiller@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com/tftech/
<b>#18</b> "crash" wrote...
<QUOTE>er. the reason you don't remember it is because you couldn't. :) </QUOTE>

Hmm, ok, was it just me or was there a level early on in Doom 2 where you had to run & jump to get to the red key? Or was it just that you had to run to be able to cross the gap? bleh, it's been too long.

-PainKilleR-[CE]
#20 by "Karl Palutke"
2000-06-02 22:39:13
palutkek@asme.org
<quote>UH OH!! Random .plan file release by one of your underlings!! *WOOOP WOOOP WOOOP (red klaxon, with twirling light)* </quote>

Cool.  Will you be able to slap you underlings to make them work harder (like in Dungen Keeper)?
#21 by "Happy cow"
2000-06-02 22:41:54
happycow30@hotmail.com http://happycow.home.icq.com
FPS= First person Slapper
It could work.

Happy cow (thank you sir may I have another)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#22 by "Andy"
2000-06-02 22:44:25
andy@planetcrap.com
I really don't have much to say on this apart from what you could probably guess from the topic.

If there's going to be a big public slagging match going on over at Id, great, it'll be fun to watch. As long as it all blows over, nobody loses their job and the company stays together, no problem.

I really, really hope Id doesn't split up, or go through any major staff changes. With Steed gone, as much as I dislike the way he left, Id is now back to how I personally want it to be. Bring back Romero and McGee and it will be even better, but I'm sure that won't happen.

Id's single player games are great. I know it's cool to say that Id is just an engine company but I disagree.

Quake is one of my all-time favourites. Q2 wasn't exactly my cup of tea but I played it, enjoyed it, and will probably play it again someday. Q3A is a lot of fun and, while it's not traditional single player, playing it on my own against bots is always entertaining. (And as an aside, it has one of my favourite game levels, q3dm2.)

I'm really looking forward to playing Doom. I'm sure it will be great. I'll be very surprised if it isn't.

With Hook, Steed and Kang gone, I don't think we'll see any more of the 'nastiness' that Id was prone to a year ago, so the development time should be fun for spectators. I'll enjoy reading the previews, seeing the screenshots, anticipating the game, etc. Just like the good old days.

Now wait for tomorrow's announcement that Id has split up...
#23 by "None-1a"
2000-06-02 22:48:10
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#19</b> "PainKilleR-[CE]" wrote...
<QUOTE>

Hmm, ok, was it just me or was there a level early on in Doom 2 where you had to run & jump to get to the red key? Or was it just that you had to run to be able to cross the gap? bleh, it's been too long.

-PainKilleR-[CE] </QUOTE>

Yeap it was run across gap, not jump. I can defnetly see a System Shock/Dues Ex style of game play with Doom x, there is some room with the doom universe to create a compeling story (I can deffinetly see a conspricy type story line involving UCA and the demons)

O and on the Half-Life=Doom thing

Doom - Co-op multiplayer
Half-Life - Nope.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#24 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-06-02 22:50:07
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Painkiller
<quote>Hmm, ok, was it just me or was there a level early on in Doom 2 where you had to run & jump to get to the red key? Or was it just that you had to run to be able to cross the gap? bleh, it's been too long. </quote>

Yeah .. jumping in Doom was a matter of getting up enough speed to clear the gap.  ;)
#25 by "Dethstryk"
2000-06-02 22:55:38
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>#19</b> "PainKilleR-[CE]" wrote...
Hmm, ok, was it just me or was there a level early on in Doom 2 where you had to run & jump to get to the red key? Or was it just that you had to run to be able to cross the gap? bleh, it's been too long.</QUOTE>
You hit it right on the head. There was an area in one of the games that was just how you described, where you had to run to cross a gap.

Either that or I'm completely forgetting the years I spent on the game, but hey.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#26 by "Dethstryk"
2000-06-02 22:57:17
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>#23</b> "None-1a" wrote...
<QUOTE>Yeap it was run across gap, not jump. I can defnetly see a System Shock/Dues Ex style of game play with Doom x, there is some room with the doom universe to create a compeling story (I can deffinetly see a conspricy type story line involving UCA and the demons)</QUOTE>
Ever seen the DOOM book series written by Dafydd ab Hugh and Brad Linaweaver? I always thought they were pretty enjoyful, and that they translated the DOOM feel pretty well. I wish that DOOM movie deal wouldn't have fallen through so long ago.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#27 by "Illbuddha"
2000-06-02 23:00:29
colin_kawakami@bossgame.com http://www.databass.com/ck/
pretty enjoyful?

lol
#28 by "Doom Trooper"
2000-06-02 23:01:17
doomtrooper@planetquake.com http://www.planetquake.com/futurewars
One thing I hated about later incarnations of Doom (Ultimate Doom, Doom II, et al) is the movement away from killin' and toward puzzlin'.  I *really* hated how every level turned into a huge Rubik's Cube of a maze where you'd be trying to jump Mario-style across floating pillars so you could press a button and then climb some stairs really fast and hope the door didn't close before you made it in while some Cacodemon is firing belchballs at you from a cage you can't fire into.

...all in a level called "The Medlab".

uh huh.

please, if we're gonna do another Doom, let's get the architecture right!  Doom 1 was the best.  Keep the flavor.
#29 by "Dethstryk"
2000-06-02 23:01:57
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>#27</b> "Illbuddha" wrote...
<QUOTE>pretty enjoyful?</QUOTE>
C'mon, they are about DOOM of all games. Of course they are enjoyful!

I don't write book reviews, so I don't know how else I'm supposed to say it. :)


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#30 by "loonyboi"
2000-06-02 23:09:53
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
A Blue's News reader sent this in:

<a href="http://www.idsoftware.com/cgi-win/idbios.exe/who/psteed">http://www.idsoftware.com/cgi-win/idbios.exe/who/psteed</a>

Note this part:

<QUOTE>Family. Pool halls. Beer. Exercise. Not fighting. Working on my people skills. Trying to figure Adrian out. </QUOTE>

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "Dethstryk"
2000-06-02 23:12:36
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>#30</b> "loonyboi" wrote...
<QUOTE>Family. Pool halls. Beer. Exercise. Not fighting. Working on my people skills. Trying to figure Adrian out.</QUOTE>
Very interesting. Now that this is out, wonder how long till that gets taken out?


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#32 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-06-02 23:21:04
piramida@usa.net http://www.agsm.net
<b>#13</b> "PainKilleR-[CE]" wrote...
<QUOTE>Doom: kept me playing for months, no matter how many times I finished it, until Doom 2 came out ;)

Half-life: puts me to sleep, no matter how many times I TRY to play it and enjoy it

</QUOTE>

Second that, while HL was amazing and stuff after playing it through two times it became... boring. DOOM never did. Heck, even today (the only thing keeping me from playing DOOM today is the absence of vertical movement, which kinda makes your neck feel broken).

I am not sure what would possibly come out of DOOM3, because the mood... It was the result of the right people gathered together at the right time and the right place, not only Carmack's revolutionary engine with superb graphics. It's hard to recreate the mood of DOOM, so I really think id will be trying to milk the dead cow.

I think it'd be better for JC to sit down for a while and come up with the next big thing, and what that can be my simple mind can't possibly predict now.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#33 by "OldUncleTed"
2000-06-02 23:25:55
thanks lonyboi,



i think for FPS to be more fun they should get away from energy weapons and switch
to Actual weapons and not huge multi rocket launchers
like if u get even 2 diffrent types of each weapon  that is diffrent in its own way
like 2 pistols or shotguns  and maybe a grenade launcher with very limited ammo

so basicly take all tha weapons from CS and put it into a Doom type game
#34 by "PainKilleR-[CE]"
2000-06-02 23:32:33
painkiller@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com/tftech/
<b>#33</b> "OldUncleTed" wrote...
<QUOTE>so basicly take all tha weapons from CS and put it into a Doom type game </QUOTE>

heh, I'll stick with my UT weapons for a while thanks. I do think that a realistic-styled game the likes of Counterstrike, done really well with a good engine would do quite well today, but it's not what I'm interested in (which I've seen mean absolutely nothing in the past, so big deal). The problem is that whenever people do games of that nature (Delta Force, Rainbow 6), the engines they use tend to be really bad. SOF probably went a little too much for the gore factor, which is holding it back, and I think the multiplayer team-play factor has a lot to do with CS' success as well. Let's face it, there's no easier way to force team-play than to make each individual player so weak that they die instantly if they run out on their own. Not to mention making you sit around until the last camper is hunted down or the last objective completed once you die.

-PainKilleR-[CE]
#35 by "OldUncleTed"
2000-06-02 23:45:05
obviously u didnt get my point  

im not saying anything about tha game play  just the weapons
#36 by "dolomite"
2000-06-02 23:45:25
dolomite@planetquake.com http://www.captured.com/dteam
Dammit you all must go here now:
www.captured.com/dteam

:)

/d
#37 by "Chango"
2000-06-02 23:52:53
blahblah@something.com
Jafd:
"<i>I always hated the way I couldn't look up or look down in Doom; when Heretic came along I jumped ship lickety-split. Remaking Doom with the q3 engine sounds like a great idea to me... same maps and everything, just with updated tech. I'm hoping that is what Doom3 is going to be, actually. It wouldn't take long to make, that's for sure. But if they're going to try and make some brand new game "in the tradition of Doom" it's going to suck major portions of ass (although it will still sell gangbusters, of course).</i>"

Make the very same 'Doom' with the Q3 engine?  What a waste of programmer's time and money that would truly be.  And not to mention a waste of teh Q3 engine.  Doom was a fantastic game, but the restrictions that held it back then should by no means hold it back now.  If you love those old levels so much, with their phoney 3D invirons and their re-scaleable flat sprites (which cannot coexist with another sprite in the same place, btw) - but be able to look up and down and jump - then just go download GLDoomLegacy for nothing.  And I have't even gone into the 'Sectors' pretending to be doors and windows...

Doom gave us a horribly demented netherworld full of demons and zombies and evil.  The 'one man versus the legions of the dead' idea was as fantastic then as it is now - I would certainly welcome a new doom universe, a universe where, thanks to the brilliant Q3 engine, will finaly be realized the way it should be.

Insanely deep firey-red abysses, monks chanting, 30ft-high cyberdemons that shake the room with their footsteps (through sounblaster Live! of course) - the ability to rip apart those zombies and cacodemons in a million different ways with a million different weapons...

The possibilities are quite endless with the new engine, and I can honestly say that if Doom3 was just doom in new 3D pants, I won't even bother witht he demo, thankyouverymuch.



-Chango
#38 by "Tom Cleghorn"
2000-06-02 23:58:23
tc10@spammeandfeelpainlikenootherpain.st-andrews.a http://www.fisty.com/~tom
<B>Andy:</B>
<QUOTE>Id's single player games are great.</QUOTE>
Oh, come off it... let's start with the proposition that it is self-evident that their engines are better than the games they make with them, insofaras these things can be quantified. That can be followed to conclude that, since their engines are great (as in 'a great engine', not 'Boyzone are playing? Great!'), their games are not great. :)
Seriously though - they have never used the full potential of Carmack's work. Compare Quake and Hexen II - to all intents and purposes, they used the same engine; there was very little difference between Id's original and Raven's tweaked version - so I think we're safe to call them one and the same. So now compare the games: Quake - a hodge-podge of faux-Chthulhu (sp? Who gives?) -cum-Giger cyberpunk oddness and mediaeval surreality. Hexen II: a coherent sequel to Hexen, with something that looked a bit like a plot (well, it was an excuse at worst), innovative gameplay and original design (not to mention <i>supreme</i> levels, especially the Blackmarsh hub). I know which I'd choose for a 'Best Game' award. But they're made with the same tools - hence, Id must not have been exploiting them to their full potential, and therefore their emphasis is squarely on technical innovation, rather than the games. Do the same thing with Quake II and Half-Life - I'm not saying that Id's games are bad, but rather that other people make better games: i.e. that Id's games are not <i>great</i> games.

I'm sorry, officer, I do believe I'm rambling.
I assure you, I've only had a few ales. ;)
#39 by "PainKilleR-[CE]"
2000-06-03 00:00:49
painkiller@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com/tftech/
<b>#35</b> "OldUncleTed" wrote...
<QUOTE>obviously u didnt get my point

im not saying anything about tha game play just the weapons </QUOTE>

Actually, I got your point quite well, I just didn't base my entire post on your post ;) Besides, once you put realistic-looking weapons in the game, and take out all of the energy weapons, what's the point of not having the realistic physics and damage models to go with them? I like the over-the-top out of control weapons that people actually have to make up, rather than just modelling what we already have. Obviously there's a market for the realistic weapon models though, as they're starting to permeate just about every fps game around (HL has some realistic looking weapons, definitely the majority of the HL mods follow that path, there are a couple of UT mods coming along with that in mind, SOF, etc.).

The question is, if I put a rocket launcher in there, and my .45 kills anyone in 1 well-aimed shot, what is the rocket launcher going to do? If the rocket launcher doesn't take out a city block, why even bother with it? I don't know, really, what the answer is, as I've played games that model them realistically and games that don't. Even Quake 2 had a couple of weapons that were semi-realistic looking, though we all know the damage model was completely off. It still seemed to work pretty well, though. Of course, Q2 still had the rockets and the BFG...

-PainKilleR-[CE]
#40 by "Darkseid"
2000-06-03 00:04:50
Darkseid-D@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
Hrmm

anyone played the Half Life mod ... They Hunger ... or maybe USS Darkstar

Neil Manke makes some excellent levels ;)

there are times when there you are literaly surrounded by about 10 zombies .. and only have the crowbar...

or having to do some frantic scrambling because the floor fell out and youre in the lap of _something_ nasty


Rather than just run and gun, Doom Evolution _needs_ to expand on that level, not just make it death match against hordes of bots,

Think System Shock 2, Think Half Life, Think Spy vs Spy ....

you can still have your 'get from here to there' or 'open this door' type puzzles, but expand them out, so they dont seem like they are that kind of puzzle.

Put alternate routes and solutions in, say youve got to get to the other side of the UAC base... do you risk taking the mono rail when you can see winged demons, do you jump on a jeep and try to drive your way through, do you go building to building, using cover, do you try to get into the storm drains...

each route can have little elements in it, the monorail route, may require you to restore power, so you have to side track into some buildings, and clear a blockage in the storm drains

taking a jeep, youve got to get some fuel, which requires locating a dump, then getting into it...

going building to building, youre on foot, so its slower, but you get to explore more, a demon blows up a building, blocking your main route, forcing you to skirt along side a chasm then climb up on the mono rail .. which is out of control ...

going via the storm drains, you get knocked off your feet and dragged further than you intended to go and have ended up at a hydro plant or treatment works, you can get to the launch pad via .....


get the idea ?  


Ds
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#41 by "Tom Cleghorn"
2000-06-03 00:04:57
tc10@spammeandfeelpainlikenootherpain.st-andrews.a http://www.fisty.com/~tom
<B>OldUncleTed:</B>
<QUOTE>obviously u didnt get my point</QUOTE>
obviously u didnt lissen in gramma class

Seriously though - 'real' weapons in commercial games won't be happening in the mainstream. Can you imagine the outcry from 'concerned mothers'?
<B>EVIL GAME TAUGHT BOY, 7, TO KILL!(Mother evasive about '18' certificate on box)</B>
Is that whatchoo want? Coz thass what'll appen!
On another note, <i>why</i> do you consider that such additions will make FPS games 'more fun'? That's kind of a fucked-up way of thinking, if you don't mind me saying so.
#42 by "crash"
2000-06-03 00:08:56
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<i> Let's face it, there's no easier way to force team-play than to make each individual player so weak that they die instantly if they run out on their own.                                                Not to mention making you sit around until the last camper is hunted down or the last objective completed once you die.</i>

you just described EverQuest to a "T".
#43 by "OldUncleTed"
2000-06-03 00:09:38
ok

In my opinion i would call HL the best First Person Mod Base  Ever    

mostly because of a great engine  

but tha game itself (not including the 1st time thru Opposing Force) single player and
death match   really sucked
#44 by "Darkseid"
2000-06-03 00:12:32
Darkseid-D@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
sounds like counter strike ...

sadly too many deathmatch/deathwish idiots play it and rush out only to be cut down in a hail of bullets ..

they then proceed to scream about camping fags and lag.


meanwhile Ds and his merry band of rogues are quietly sneaking up on the rest of his team mates who are running around wearing what seems to be Dr Marten boots with steel plates on them. Gee this must be what a herd of elephants sound like when they move around.

the merry squad pops said fools heads off with interlinked fields of fire .... and on the start of the next round, the insults and accusations fly.



teamplay ..... is the reason I dont like playing by myself online, much rather have a clan mate with me.


DS<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#45 by "OldUncleTed"
2000-06-03 00:26:40
well Tommy  
 first off im TYPING not TALKING so i really dont give a shit how gramatily correct my writing
is      
So dont be a little Prick

Secondly   my point wasnt to say that tha weapons should perfectly resemble actual
weapons im just saying i think weapons would be better in a game if they didnt revolve around
the ammount of ammo they put out    
weapons should have to be mastered according to their rate of fire and range   but do
it in a way that doesnt take up too much of tha player's time but lets them develope skills with each
weapon.

lastly i find addons like CS to be more fun because they require team work and skill
unlike death match

and Yes i do mind u saying that Son
#46 by "Union Carbide"
2000-06-03 00:27:45
smythe@bangg.org http://www.bangg.org
<b>#41</b> "Tom Cleghorn" wrote...
<QUOTE>Seriously though - 'real' weapons in commercial games won't be happening in the mainstream. Can you imagine the outcry from 'concerned mothers'? </QUOTE>

Uh. . . correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Rainbow Six and Rogue Spear use real world weapons?

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#47 by "OldUncleTed"
2000-06-03 00:30:19
See,  unlike  
Tom Cleghorn

Mr.Darkseid  knows EXACTLY what hes talking about and appears to a very smart man

not a confused little boy that thinks he is one(Tom Cleghorn)
#48 by "Jafd"
2000-06-03 00:32:45
jafd@whatthefuck.com http://www.therainforestsite.com/
re: #45

Go away.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#49 by "OldUncleTed"
2000-06-03 00:32:58
THANK U TOO MR.UNION CARBIDE!!!

GOD ALOT OF SMART PPL HERE  

 I Bet u feel very alone Tommy
#50 by "OldUncleTed"
2000-06-03 00:36:07
Jafd?    wats ur problem?

have i offended u in some way?
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