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T O P I C
The Unbearable Lightness of Dying. A Lot.
May 28th 2002, 10:45 CEST by Bailey

Here's the matters which raise umbrage with me surrounding SoF2. I'll number them real easy-like so you guys can tick off the reasons I'm a jaded fuck in an organized, numerical fashion rather than the usual projectile vomitus about my hating all life, creation, and substance on the planet.

1) In the Columbian levels, the enemy shows a particular proclivity for being able to peg you in the head from 200 yards while you're crawling through waist-high shrubbery on your belly. You, on the other hand, need some magic pixies circling the head of your enemies while sprinkling glowing fairy dust to find a Columbian standing five feet away. Note that the Columbian is also waving a red flag.

2) Enemies which spawn in areas you've already been just to punish you for exploring. You know the drill. You clear an area, you check all the doors, nooks, crannies, then open the vault to get some weapons before heading to the next area, and turn around to find the Wu-Tang Clan and their respective firepower aimed at that particularly embarrassing mole on your left testicle that looks like J. Edgar Hoover in a string bikini.

3) The impressive ability that everyone in the world has (except for you) to strafe back and forth wildly while shooting their desired target in the face, repeatedly. Over and over. At 30kmph. With blindfolds on. From 100 yards off. With a micro-uzi.

4) Stealth missions. The grand joke being the "stealth" part lasts, on average, 15-45 seconds into the mission, which quickly devolves into a running firefight with 60 or so guys.

5) Privacy curtains, a wonderful invention of the early medical system, are thin, pliable, and easily shot through. That's great. The problem is that terrorists have apparently been blessed by the aformentioned sparkle pixies, because they can see you through said solid, opaque, indestructible curtains. You, adversely, cannot see them. Or destroy them. Or bypass them. The quickload key defaults to F8, in case you're wondering. You'll be needing that.

6) The random map generator. Never has something been so over-hyped since Daikatana, New Coke, or the cure for cancer. And it was barely hyped, but even being included in the game is a grotesque error. Simple example: In tonight's game, the defenders spawned 50 feet from the offence. After a quick laugh over the poor design, the map was re-seeded, which left the defenders locked in a valley to the SE, while the offence had an easy, care-free jog to the briefcase. Oh yes. Loving the RMG. Did I also mention every single RMG level is a vast, empty area dotted with tree houses and roman columns? Sniper paradise, you say? No thanks, I'm full.

7) All the levels being designed for an average team population of five. So in case you ever planned on that cozy little LAN party with you and your three friends, prepare for a rocking good time of running around looking for someone, anyone, to shoot.

8) The marines, who while supposedly on my side, shot me in the head if I ran away from them, or when they casuallywandered in front of my steadily-firing gun. They also had the charming tendency to tell me to go into a house and clear it out on my own. Woe be unto me should I open the front door to find a rebel behind it, as the marines would open fire into my spine in an attempt to take out said rebel. The real charmer was the marine who threw a grenade in after me as I scrambled for cover. Thank you, Raven AI team!

Share your opinions, experiences, fanboi spewings, etc.
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Home » Topic: The Unbearable Lightness of Dying. A Lot.

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#1 by Squeaky
2002-05-28 10:59:56
Based on everything I've read thus far on PC tells me to stay far away from purchasing this game.

As for multiplayer, I'll play Unreal Infiltration instead.

We've also revolutionized the boob technology
#2 by Squeaky
2002-05-28 11:01:43
oh yeah I almost forgot...

1st!

suck it!

We've also revolutionized the boob technology
#3 by Arach
2002-05-28 11:31:01
http://www.ng-gamers.com/
Stealth ends in 60 seconds or so? God I wish. Fucking Train Station, with the alarm going off for ZERO apparent reason.  Im not enjoying SOF2 very much at all, despite being on the goddamn 4th level, oh and what's with the Jumping Puzzle after walking down 1 street of the single player. Fucking hell Raven MORE generic boring crap, nice touch with ripping off MOH during that truck mission too. Why is it that Raven has no balls to take a risk and try something new. GAH!

Burger King - Where ALL Dragonmasters eat!
#4 by Arach
2002-05-28 11:33:14
http://www.ng-gamers.com/
Mind you said question in last post does not need an answer, It's blantantly obious. Just a preemptive post to stop the "Money, duh!" post that's bound to follow.

Burger King - Where ALL Dragonmasters eat!
#5 by Max
2002-05-28 11:41:50
http://massivebraincase.org/
It's funny you should mention a mole that looks like J. Edgar Hoover in a string bikini, because I have a mole that's an amazing likeness of Elvis wearing a funny hat. It's not on my left testicle though. Actually, I guess that's not really very funny.

Topically... I haven't played it at all so I wouldn't know.  Is there anything to like about the SP?

Mouthpunch Arcade
#6 by "flamethrower"
2002-05-28 11:51:07
It'll be much more impressive once it's patched ( by the user community ).
#7 by Sgt Hulka
2002-05-28 12:07:35
eh? I'll play it when I get it. Until then I'm watching this 1960's movie on AMC that has Ron Howard, Tommy Kirk and Beau Bridges in it.  It's so bad, it's terrible.

DOOMED! - Videogames Turn Deadly.
#8 by Sgt Hulka
2002-05-28 13:08:55
Dinglehoffin

DOOMED! - Videogames Turn Deadly.
#9 by Ashiran
2002-05-28 13:15:46
Causes of the list of Baileys bitchings.

1) Crap AI.
2) Crap AI. (AI isn't smart enough to be difficult so the game relies on void spawning instead)
3) Crap AI.
4) Crap mission design. (This can be overlooked seeing that the game is a shooter and not a Thief clone)
5) Crap AI.
6) Crap generator component (everyone who expected much from this is quite dumb to begin with imho).
7) No small maps. (This can be fixed with usermade maps)
8) Crap AI.

Anyone besides me who notices a distinct trend here?

"...so I can send him a dead dog with the word "YOU" taped to its face." - Cliff Yablonski
#10 by InsideWhat'sLeft Behind
2002-05-28 13:19:26
*spoilers* *spoilers* *spoilers* *spoilers*

Remember you fighting a helicopter in SoF1?

You do it in this game too. Twice. One time of which is the end boss. Creative huh?

And what's with the getting stuck on invisible geometry throughout the game?

Anyway, I won't whine much because it was about as crappy as I had envisioned, it being made by Raven and all...

"It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
#11 by ADoomedMarine
2002-05-28 13:29:35
http://www.planetmaxpayne.com/
yeah I totally agree with you Bailey...

I hated the fact that they have such good aim.. but then they are so easy to kill as well.  It's like they have leprosy with their arms and legs falling off so easily.

#10

I also hated that invisible border around every object.. damn thing wouldn't let me shoot enemies even though I had a perfect shot at them and also wouldn't give me my knives back when I threw it and it landed on a mounted gun.

Although I loved the fact that where ever you shot a bullet hole appeared on the enemy.. also the glass effect when it rains down on the enemy.
#12 by zimbardo_ugly
2002-05-28 13:33:22
zimbardo_ugly@hotmail.com
It was clear from the beginning that the entire game was going to be centered around "Salad days".

- skazal Rzhevskij i razmazal govno po bil'jardnomu stolu...
#13 by InsideWhat'sLeft Behind
2002-05-28 13:36:35
#11, I finished the game today and well, I think I had to use noclip at least 7-8 times total because I got stuck in the floor for some obscure reason.

Oh btw, was I the only one who had problems with the sniper rifle, shooting people leaning around a corner? I had them squarely in my crosshair but nooo, no hit.

One good thing with the game though: a nice shotgun (not the automatic one, it seemed its pellets just disappeared after a certain distance, not accountable by its spread).

"It goes without saying that technical proficiency should be the first acquistion of a student who would be a fine pianist." - Sergei Rachmaninov
#14 by ADoomedMarine
2002-05-28 13:40:18
http://www.planetmaxpayne.com/
Oh btw, was I the only one who had problems with the sniper rifle, shooting people leaning around a corner? I had them squarely in my crosshair but nooo, no hit.


Yeah that's what I meant about the invisible border around every object.. although I didn't just have a problem with the sniper rifle doing that, pretty much every weapon.  Even the AK47 which has the most sharp shots in the game.
#15 by Ashiran
2002-05-28 13:42:04
Poor SoF2. I have yet to hear a positive sound about it's SP.

So how's the MP?

"I've got a spoiler for you. YOU WILL DIE ALONE!" - Triumph
#16 by DevPac2
2002-05-28 14:32:31
devpac2@hotmail.com
Point 2 (respawning baddies) was the reason i just stopped playing SoF1. I got to a point where i would turn a corner to face 4 or 5 baddies, retreat about 5 yards to be met by another 4 or 5 baddies coming from an enclosed area i'd just cleared. I'l still get SoF2, but thats more for the MP (which i really enjoyed) than for the SP game.
#17 by MCorleone
2002-05-28 14:33:24
...And every preview touting the AI as the "new breed" where it's actually improved tremendously over every previous game.  Every game in development pimps it's AI as the next best thing.  Every game underdelivers.  

What's the issue with AI in games today?  Is it a question of the AI programmers being poor at their jobs or of today's tech not being able to handle complex algorithyms?  From my amateur programming experience and dabbling in AI in University, I can't see why it would be so hard to had a little bit of randomness into the firing subroutines of the enemies.  Maybe give them a cone of firing rather than a direct line to the player...  

So does SOF2 also suffer from the one symptom of Ravenitis that we all hate, the "ten doors in a corridor and only one works"?

Build a man a fire and you'll keep him warm for the rest of the night.  Light a man on fire and you'll keep him warm for the rest of his life.
#18 by "flamethrower"
2002-05-28 14:51:12
Point 2 (respawning baddies) was the reason i just stopped playing SoF1. I got to a point where i would turn a corner to face 4 or 5 baddies, retreat about 5 yards to be met by another 4 or 5 baddies coming from an enclosed area i'd just cleared.


Then why didn't you play SOF1 without spawning?

It's not a Jap/Console game, it was an initial option.



I played SOF1 right through, barely without stopping. Hardest difficulty, least carrying capacity, but light respawning. I was a fucking ninja.

That moonlight train ride level with the camera sweep, and the copter? That's the sort of game Raven should have been aiming at making - a fun one.

Very much liked Kosovo, esp once out of the very "Rune" sewers and into building-site rubble, at dusk, with very good air-raid whooshing noises. The African levels were superbly done, the drumbeats, fucking 'WoW'. And though it was sterile and Dilbert, I REALLY liked gunning down shirts & suits in The Office. Siberia rocked too.

The Iraq levels were the worst, especially the second-time-around one, and though the German castle was impressive the sci-fi sewers & ending sucked the sweat off a dead dogs balls.
#19 by Ashiran
2002-05-28 14:53:44
#17 by MCorleone
Welcome to the "Banging the AI nail" club! And here is your free, for members only, shiney hammer!

When it comes to previews combined with predictions about the quality of AI I just cry a lot.

"I've got a spoiler for you. YOU WILL DIE ALONE!" - Triumph
#20 by Leslie Nassar
2002-05-28 14:54:22
http://departmentofinternets.com
Thank God multi-player is so much fun, because single-player is bugging the hell out of me.  Respawning baddies on the mansion level can bite my shiny metal ass.

i like monkeys.  are you a monkey?
#21 by Darkseid-D
2002-05-28 15:13:43
rogerboal@hotmail.com
/me looks smug

I did tell you so. I really did, but nobody would believe me.

now you`ve played it for yourselves and seen I wasnt exaggerating.


Soldier of Fortune 2: Deja Vu

anyone wish to argue with me that theres something screwed up in how the AI meshes with the game world after playing SOF2? Anyone? Bueller?


the `clipping` issue around models drove me bugfuck, being unable to snipe someone standing between two trees at a medium distance because both trees had `magical protection barriers` that extended around them  that the AI could see you (and amazingly shoot at you) but you couldnt reply in kind..

oh deary deary deary dear.


Oh and any bets on how long itll be before you see `remakes` or `ports` of the most popular CS maps....



Ds

Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
#22 by LPMiller
2002-05-28 15:53:53
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
They don't respawn, they come from previously locked doors, at least near as I can tell.

I guess I'm all alone in liking the single player. The jungle was a blast, prague easy once I figured it out, the mansion pretty cool, and I dunno what the hell that was about a jumping puzzle, because I ain't seen a one.

MP is a blast too, we had a little lan session on sunday with 4-6 people, it was killer.

1)Having been waxed by Bailey and Anal more times then I care to admit, they don't seem all that accurate to me.

2)doesn't feel like respawning to me, like I said. Hasn't been an issue - made me jump though.

3)haven't noticed this on the normal level at all.

4)yes and no. You can do those stealth missions, but it's basically one big puzzle. If you can figure out the pattern, you can do it, but it is a challenge. I've been liking the challenge, and when I don't, fuckit, I set off the alarm.

5) Noticed that a little bit, though I have killed a few through closed doors. I have also noticed in the biohazard level, bodies in the hospitals have their shadow floating above them. No wonder they are sick.

6) have only used it for MP, and then only capture the flag. Wasn't a lot of variety, but seems ok. I don't have any real expectations of it.

7) at one point on sunday, we had just 4 people playing deathmatch and CTF. Infiltration doesn't work with 4, but the others were fun.

8) Yeah, they were annoying, though one of them went rogue and went double speed and cleared out most of the jungle. It was actually kinda funny. Then the POW I rescued got waxed, but later on I still get credit for saving him.

I dunno, the first one bored me after awhile. Oh look, more arabs. Yay. This one is more interesting to me, level wise, and I'm having fun. But, I'm getting rather tired of being jaded, I'd rather just enjoy myself.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#23 by jjohnsen
2002-05-28 16:04:28
http://www.johnsenclan.com
I've been in Yellowstone for a week so forgive me if someone has talked about this already.  No one has said a lot about the level generator, was it everything I hoped and more, or not even close?

jjohnsen's Mighty Mormon M203 O' Murderin'
#24 by Leslie Nassar
2002-05-28 16:09:33
http://departmentofinternets.com
They don't respawn, they come from previously locked doors, at least near as I can tell.

I was able to make the same guy appear three times.  I always wondered what the septuplets would do once they were all grown up.

i like monkeys.  are you a monkey?
#25 by "germz"
2002-05-28 16:21:07
The random map generator is in fact VERY impressive imho. Most of the random maps Iíve played on were really good for CTF especially, some of them even excellent. I think that one bad experience bailey point out is really just a fluke. Probably had the random map generator seeded with 0, which seems to be a known bug. The medium and large maps are really quite huge, but the small ones are great for any number of players. Sure your going to get snipers who will take advantage of some areas on the map, but you can always counter with snipers on your own team. Playing on a random night map is especially exciting twist. You canít see jack, plus the area is completely foreign to you, which makes things very intense.

    As far as the enemy AI in the single player, it has its good points and bad points. The AI just spawning out of thin air when you hit some trigger is definitely the most annoying thing about the game. I hoping it had to do with some limitation of the q3 engine or memory resources, and not implemented in the game just to fuck with you. MOH:AA did the same shit too, so I wonder if they were not just trying to get around some limitation inherent to the engine or something.

    Most of the time though the AI was fun to play against. Yes, they are very good shots though, and there is a lot of dying in this game - even for experienced players.

     And this is no doubt the main reason this game is getting knocked a lot - imho. Experienced players seem to feel they can just load up the game and just have their way with the AI like they do with every-other FPS game. Instead they get their ass handed to them over and over again - on the medium difficulty at that. Their first reaction seems to invariably be ďTHIS AI IS CRAP.Ē In reality, the AIís only real fault is that they are good shots. Iím betting that if Raven had gone just a little softer on the AI, and fed the egos of the players a little more, reviews of the AI would be drastically different.

   If you think they are 'unrealisticly hard' you really ought to question the reality of one man taking on dozens and dozens of armed combatants and expecting to come out alive at all. The very fact that it is possible to beat the game at all should mean that it is 'unrealisticly easy.'

     The friendly and NPC stuff I enjoyed. There is that one mission in an airport where you have to clear out the bad guys while trying not to kill any civilians, which was really the highlight in the entire game for me. Some times civilians come running straight at you while you are in the middle of a firefight and get shot in the face by you, or in the back by the terrorists, and the mission ends instantly - and you curse and swear. But I felt it added to the whole excitement of the mission and wasnít annoyed by it too much

     My only 2 real gripes about this game are the cinematics, and that annoying triggered spawning thing. The cinematics are what people should be raising hell over, NOT the enemy AI. The ending cut scene definitely makes my list of worst endings ever. I feel the game would have been much stronger overall if they actually put some effort into the cinematics.
  
    Overall though, I feel this is a very solid game. I had a lot of fun playing the SP, and am sure to continue having fun with MP.

-g3rmz
#26 by deadlock
2002-05-28 16:32:33
http://www.deadlocked.org/
gezmo:
If you think they are 'unrealisticly hard' you really ought to question the reality of one man taking on dozens and dozens of armed combatants and expecting to come out alive at all. The very fact that it is possible to beat the game at all should mean that it is 'unrealisticly easy.'

There's no point in playing a game of this type if it isn't beatable.

There's an interesting article on AI in this month's Edge. A couple of  game AI coders have their say and most of them basically say that AI in games such as Soldier of Fortune, Deus Ex and even HalfLife is just an illusion. If a 'proper' AI was implemented, nine times out of ten it would be too good and would have to be dumbed down, so you'd just get shit with NPCs walking into walls and shit; like on some Quake 3/Unreal Tournament maps where the bots can't figure out how to get out of a room for some reason. The key is to create the illusion that the entities are strategising, when in reality they're just following pre-scripted actions at random.

Jafd! Warren! Stop bickering or I'll be forced to change your opinions manually!
#27 by ADoomedMarine
2002-05-28 16:47:28
http://www.planetmaxpayne.com/
Hey is it just me or is all the daytime maps are are made using the RMG all have fog in them?

That pisses me and makes the graphics even worse.
#28 by Charles
2002-05-28 17:11:34
www.bluh.org
AI doesn't have to be smart.  It has to be fun.  Fun is in appearing smart, not necessarily being smart.  All that BS about "If anyone did good AI it would kick your ass" blah blah blah is just a cop out.  

If you want good, fun AI, I direct you towards either Halo, or MGS2.   In Halo, the aliens do fun things like hide from you and find cover...  I once kept chasing an alien around a tree.  God damn that was fun!  In MGS2, they don't ever magically know where you are... they have to search, and find you.  And if you are good enough, you can avoid being found.  

I don't care what anyone says... good AI, in the form of fun AI, is completely attainable.  Any game that has obviously stupid and un-fun AI is just another game where the developer didn't think that AI was a priority.  Hate to break it to you, but in a game where all you are doing is killing AI, it should at least be entertaining.  And fallible.  That's the thing... AI in games like Quake, UT, etc, are omniscient.  They don't have to determine anything but line of sight... they know where you are.  Real people are fallible, and AI should be too.  AI that knows exactly where you are every time isn't exactly realistic, nor is it fun.  Which is the most important part.

Bailey:  Beep beep, motherfucker.
#29 by Matt Perkins
2002-05-28 17:13:12
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
someone make it stop, I'm agreeing with Nova again.

On this point, he is completely right.  Making AI is not about making "real" AI or anything else.  Only about making it fun for the player...  duh!

my monkey name is Bobo.
#30 by Bailey
2002-05-28 17:27:04
Admittedly, I'd completely forgotten about the Prague train station, which was a "true" stealth mission, and a real nazi about it at that. But after about five FUBAR'd attempts, I figured out you just have to keep throwing the knives at people's heads, retrieve, sneak up on the next guy, throw, retrieve... pretty easy to work your way through in a big hurry as long as you can keep the guards from seeing the corpses.

So, one real stealth mission, two "suggested" stealth missions, and neither of them coming across anything like the crudest Thief imitator. The engine obviously isn't designed for it, so why bother including these elements?

But, as has been mentioned, the MP rocks, and was really the sole reason I bought the game to begin with, so I'm content in that respect. I would've been much happier buying an UT-esque "Online Only" discount version and bypassed the whole SP experience, however. They just need A) more maps, B) more map size variation, C) more variants of online play. I mean, Infiltration's just a one-sided CTF, then you got CTF, then DM, Team DM, and Elimination... which is deathmatch without respawning. Hopefully the low-level modders will add some factors to spruce it up a bit, but so far, Inf seems to be the only game the PC crowd enjoys.

Say the phrase "marketable intellectual property" to find out how long it takes me to leave the room.
#31 by Sgt Hulka
2002-05-28 17:29:29
I don't intend on playing the SP of SOF2.  I was thinking about writing a review of it, but have changed my mind.  Same with Q3.  Never did the SP, only MP.  WTF?  CYA, BRB, BYOB.

DOOMED! - Videogames Turn Deadly.
#32 by deadlock
2002-05-28 17:29:39
http://www.deadlocked.org/
That's what I was saying. The AI in MGS2 is very simple and is really just a couple of tests. Is the player inside the cone of sight of the entity ? If yes, can the entity see him (ie, is the player in a dark corner or under a box/shelving unit) ? If yes, go to alert mode - is the player still visible ? If yes, then shoot him, otherwise begin searching. There's no real AI, because everything is scripted. The tests are fairly sophisticated (the sentries will notice things like blood trails etc.) and the scripts are very lifelike, but they're still just scripts and the AI isn't adaptive in the way that the AI in Quake 3 should be. No matter how many times you alert the AI and then hide in a locker in MGS2, for example, the sentries will never ever conduct a systematic search of every single locker. I've played games of Quake 3 where the bots have broken off attacks on each other and concentrated on killing me when I've been sniping with the Rail Gun; in team games where I've repeatedly killed bot members of my own team, they've retaliated and killed me a few times.

Jafd! Warren! Stop bickering or I'll be forced to change your opinions manually!
#33 by "one"
2002-05-28 17:30:00
a game that had really fun ai was the marines in halflife
#34 by Ashiran
2002-05-28 18:09:52
#28 by Nova Z
I know it, you know it. Now how do we get people in key positions to realize it?

Fun AI is much much easier to create then you might think. It's just that they don't bother to put the extra time in. It's not a difficult thing to do just a timeconsuming one. And time is usually in short supply.

That's why I'm hoping DNF will have some suprises regarding AI.

"I've got a spoiler for you. YOU WILL DIE ALONE!" - Triumph
#35 by Hugin
2002-05-28 18:10:58
lmccain@nber.org
I'd like to see a game where the enemies screwed up in a comical fashion once in a while.  Mis-throws a grenade, and is scripted to say "Oh shit" when it bounces back at thier feet.  Or runs away (or charges in), but trips and drops thier weapon. Or, once in a moon, thier rifle jammed and they muttered a curse and came at you using it like a club instead. Or, maybe after 75 percent of them in an area died, some random percentage said "Screw this, I'm out of here." Or something.  Maybe you couldn't see a group of them when heading into an area you needed to go, but if you stopped and listened, you could hear "Go on, get him." "Um, no. You go first." "No, you." "Look, we can take him if we all go together." And then they charge. Or you ran across an enemy, in some off the beaten path area, clearly just finishing up peeing (and consequently without thier weapon). Etc.  Stuff like that, scattered around, could be lively and funny.
#36 by Darkseid-D
2002-05-28 18:14:54
rogerboal@hotmail.com
all ai is just a series of scripts

even human ai.

cause, effect, result, learning.

you know that if you throw that brick in your hand what the outcome will be.  Not necessarily because youve thrown a brick, but because you have thrown something and you know how heavy a brick is and you know what heavy objects can do to other objects. You have the ability to recognise and adapt existing `scripts` you have in your head.

modern ai, just knows that throwing the grenade will blow something up, but not picking up that fire extinguisher and lobbing at the player would hurt them also. Why ? because that eventuality or possibility hasnt been programmed into it.  `Smart` appearing ai just have more decision trees and possibilities and their emplacements compliment those scripts, eg the marines in HL are quite simple but their deployment in tight areas with multiple lines of fire makes them effective. Put the same marine ai into say facing worlds from UT and they`ll appear quite stupid and fall off the edge a lot.

Now if the ai could learn and was capable of free form association (semi impossible without eating all your cpu time) so that it could learn tricks from you and utilise them to a greater or lesser degree. Well thats a kind of holy grail for ai.

the problem then would be beating that ai, you`d always have to get better, faster, smarter, more accurate, and well, shit, newbies  dont wanna face off on the digital equivalent of Thresh & Kornelias mutant offspring, so you have to make it behave at their level. How to make it dumber?  limit its decision paths? slow down its ability to make decisions, give it blind spots, reaction time issues, handicaps with various weapons.  Figure in weightings to its behaviours,  it can learn to be more camp prone, or to snipe, or to charge in guns blazing. Hell for all B&W`s problems it did have a decent `learning` system for your pet, it did retain and it did associate actions and movements, translate that to an FPS game and you may be on to something..

All of which is cpu and memory overhead, which translates to `less on screen but smarter`, like the move from Doom to Half Life, the change from simple `if see enemy, go attack` to `if see enemy, check range, if long select grenade, if close select voice{play squadmovein}`.  Take that complexity factor up by 5x (maybe) for the q3 dm bot ai, the next gen bots.. *sigh* I want opponents with discernable foibles and behaviours, I want a bot that can be suckered with lateral thinking, I want a bot that can be ambushed from the shadows, I want a bot that screws up and unloads a grenade into the wall when I duck past it. I want the bot that doesnt make me think its a bot

Ds

Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
#37 by Bailey
2002-05-28 18:15:04
I seem to recall scripted moment or two like that in Max Payne... it was amusing at the time, and hell, it made sense when dealing with the "one-man army" scenario.

Say the phrase "marketable intellectual property" to find out how long it takes me to leave the room.
#38 by Charles
2002-05-28 18:21:15
www.bluh.org
deadlock -

No matter how many times you alert the AI and then hide in a locker in MGS2, for example, the sentries will never ever conduct a systematic search of every single locker.


You didn't play enough then, because if they know you went in to a room with lockers, and they don't see you in the room, they WILL check the lockers.

Bailey:  Beep beep, motherfucker.
#39 by Charles
2002-05-28 18:22:25
www.bluh.org
Darkseid,

I remember reading an article on the sims' AI, and it said that they sort of inverted the AI problem.  Instead of the AI actively looking for things to use,  the things told the AI that they could be used.

Subtle difference, but would cut down on a lot of the required calculations.

Bailey:  Beep beep, motherfucker.
#40 by Darkseid-D
2002-05-28 18:30:11
rogerboal@hotmail.com
now that would be an interesting way round things

*mental image of running into a room in Max Payne and things like the Tv chirping "pick me up and bash his brains in, pick me uuuuuuuppppppp"*

egads...


Ds

Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
#41 by ADoomedMarine
2002-05-28 18:30:56
http://www.planetmaxpayne.com/
Oh yeah MGS2 is really realistic.. I mean when people know there is an intruder they always stop looking after a certain amount of time and go back to what they were doing.

What I'm trying to say is that MGS2 was a completely different type of AI system, it cannot be compared to SOF2 or other traditional FPS' because the rules are completely different.

SOF2's AI was alright but it was abit unbalanced giving the enemies the upperhand.
#42 by HoseWater
2002-05-28 18:31:39
barneyque@hotmail.com
Interesting Hugin. I am going to go with that line.

A fun AI scenario that would blow me away the first time I saw it, would be something like this:

In the middle of a firefight, you run out of ammo. The enemy, realizing this, charges toward you to finish you off, but in the process, wipes out tripping on the body of a fellow dead combatant, falling flat on his face with a bit of a bounce, his fully loaded weapon slides across the floor right to your feet. Him, then comming to grips with what has just happened, responds in some appropriate manner.

That would, like I said, just blow me away. And if the AI were to do it on purpose in response to the fact that I have run out of ammo,would be a much cooler way for a game to deal with ammo than inserting a hovering glow in the dark ammo box, or just happening to have an armory in nearly everybuiling, or storing bullets on the counter of bathrooms.  The current ammo solutions for games are completely boring.
#43 by ADoomedMarine
2002-05-28 18:34:09
http://www.planetmaxpayne.com/
Now if the ai could learn and was capable of free form association (semi impossible without eating all your cpu time) so that it could learn tricks from you and utilise them to a greater or lesser degree. Well thats a kind of holy grail for ai.


That has been done before.. I'm not sure which game but the bots learn your moves and use them against you and the more you play the harder it is to win.
#44 by mixuk
2002-05-28 18:37:47
Hugin,
I think Halo has at least that grenade mis-throwing, and fleeing after most of your ai-buddies die next to you. Personally I think Halo has the best AI i've ever seen.
#45 by Charles
2002-05-28 18:38:46
www.bluh.org
ADoomedMarine -

Oh yeah MGS2 is really realistic.. I mean when people know there is an intruder they always stop looking after a certain amount of time and go back to what they were doing.


I never said it was realistic.  I said it's fun.  How much fun would the game be if the enemy found you every time?  Might as well just end the mission the instnat you are discovered...

Them giving up after a bit is a tradeoff for being fun.  Fuck realism.  Fuck it up its stupid ass.  

Realism is not a substitute for good gameplay.  Never has been, never will be.

Bailey:  Beep beep, motherfucker.
#46 by "Ghost in my Shell"
2002-05-28 18:41:29
Thing is in MGS2 if you pissed off the enemy enough in one area, they will look in every nook and cranny.

Someone gave me my copy of SoF2, and from what it sounds like I wont bother play SP at all.

I dont mind stealth missions, but the consequences for failing the mission is very annoying. Just ending the level/death is just lazy game design. There should be some penalty to the player like making them play through an extra level to find out where the commander went if you failed to follow some trooper to his secret location.

I am not sure if Deus Ex had that or in some form.

From my experiences with MP in SoF2, a good majority of the maps suck. The Shop was their best level, some of the other maps are good for CTF but horrible for INF. The Hong Kong map is absolutely the worst piece of shit I have ever seen. Its very possible for the offense to get to the case before the defending team even shows up. I am amazed though that it feels more like a team game then DM first objectives second like in CS.

As for the RMG, I am a sniper, and I love them like a motherfucker. It was awesome sitting in a night jungle mission in brush watching people run by and sniping them. I dont use goggles, and enjoyed sniping the guys who used them with their bright ass green eyes and "humming" sounds. Some of the RMGs do spawn the objective too close to the enemy area, that does suck but at least Raven tried something new. The fog on every level does suck, I feel like im playing Tribes 2.

Thank god someone else is experiencing the same problem of hitting enemies near object, I thought there was going crazy trying to hit hiding enemies.

The only real annoying thing in MP is when the q3 engine shows an enemy name if your crosshair sorta floats over them. Sorta hard to hide when people can do this to you from accross the map when you snipe at them, then they know your location.
#47 by "Ghost in my Shell"
2002-05-28 18:43:49
#41 The enemy in MGS2 were invading a base, and had an objective. I don't think a commander would want his troops looking for someone when theirs work to be done in a limited time frame.

I would only assume they would hunt down an intruder hiding in their own base.
#48 by ADoomedMarine
2002-05-28 18:44:17
http://www.planetmaxpayne.com/
I never said it was realistic.  I said it's fun.  How much fun would the game be if the enemy found you every time?  Might as well just end the mission the instnat you are discovered...

Them giving up after a bit is a tradeoff for being fun.  Fuck realism.  Fuck it up its stupid ass.  

Realism is not a substitute for good gameplay.  Never has been, never will be.


Ahh sorry.. I understand now.. yeah MGS2 AI is fun and I agree with what you say.

Although you say "Realism is not a substitute for good gameplay" it sure looks like Game developers are heading that way.
#49 by UncleJeet
2002-05-28 18:44:20
Good Single Player AI does NOT equal Great Realistic Human AI.

  If I want to fight other people, I'll join a multplayer game.  If I want to play bots, I'll play bots.

  In a SP game, I want to be the "one man army" who can snipe from a bazillion yards away, who can blast a bazillion enemies whilst strafing with a shotgun.

  I want the enemy AI to appear clever, but not be great shots and uber smart.  I don't want them to circle strafe me, in other words.  It should look like they're "roleplaying" what an actual firefight would be like (using cover, working in groups, retreating, etc...) instead of being a kick ass bot for me to fight against, with unrealistic circle strafing and weapons switching and jump jump jump.

Blah.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#50 by ADoomedMarine
2002-05-28 18:46:41
http://www.planetmaxpayne.com/
#47

In one of the cutscenes (well voice-overs) during the start it says to find that intruder.. yet they do what they do normally, just walk around.
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