PlanetCrap 6.0!
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
T O P I C
Character Development?
May 25th 2002, 18:42 CEST by JThacker

Scott Miller has on more than one occasion stated that Duke Nukem is the most well-developed video game action hero in existence.  Seriously.  He said that.

Now while I'm all for character development and all, especially in roleplaying games and adventure games -- hell, how are you supposed to role play if you don't know what role it is you're playing -- do we even need to CARE about character development in a full on action shooter like Duke 3D, Doom, Quake, or any other shooters (FPS or not)?

I'm not saying we don't need story progression; Max Payne would have been a lot of nothing without the story progressing on about the conspiracy against Our Protagonist and all, but did Max ever actually develop any that resembled a character?  I'd say no, he simply developed a bad grimace, a fully-impacted case of constipation, and, evidently, a healthy murderous rage.

But that's all he needed for the game.

Doom3 is gonna have a writer.  Why?  No id game up to now has had a plot more than a single page in a cd-case-sized manual, basically saying, "well you've got guns, and the Big Bads are here from another dimension/Hell/a Collection Agency, so go kill them without remorse."  Doom3 will more than likely be exactly the same.  And it works.  No story necessary.  (And really, do you really need a professional writer for this sort of thing? "Hey, writer!  I need you to write a scene that involves getting a color coded key, opening a door, and blowing the shit out of some mal-formed organic mechanical beasties."  "You got it Mr. Carmack!")  These are not epics of a grand scale, and almost no game is, so why the hell do people bitch and moan as if they were?

And really for everyone who gripes about how shooters are devoid of stories, there's seeminly tens or hundreds of people that will buy it and enjoy it as it is, so why bother?

Oh and for the record, Mr Miller: Duke Nukem is not even a thinly developed action character.  Duke Nukem is a one-dimensional steroidal idiot who spews so-called "witty one liners" after blowing the shit out of things that look remarkaby like Tony the Tiger and the warthog from The Lion King.  The following is a theoretical version of a marginally developed character named Duke Nukem:

Born Joseph Eugene Niedermeyer, "Duke Nukem" grew up in a fairly nondesript strict Christian household in suburban Detroit.  He always felt awkward nad was laughed at by his peers; most likely as a result of his thing frame, need for thick-lensed eyeglasses, and a helathy sheen of oil and zits on his face.  But beyond that he never fit in.  As he got closer to graduating college he decided to move to Dallas, and settled into the Oak Lawn area of Dallas, known for being a bit more "liberal" in its thinking than the rest of the area.

Living in Texas, he developed a love for weaponry and living in Oak Lawn, he developed a sense that he was living a lie by trying to pick up the "fine womenz" he saw around town.  he also discovered Sam Raimi films, and began to use quotes from them to defuse situations he saw as potentially harmful.  Befriending some local gentlemen, Bruce and "Bruce's partner," Joseph began working out with them, toning his physique and enjoying the attention he was getting form the other gentlemen in the area.  However his strong Christian upbringing forced him to hide is latent homosexuality (although the haircut and overt over-compensating macho posturing usually gave away his true feelings for those who really could tell).  He further hid this by attmepting to bed any woman he saw, and trying to blow up things, in order to project his own self-loathing onto the world, and rid himself of his personal demons.

The military saw this and found him to be quite an astute killer, and although his penchant for wearing wife-beater shirts emblazoned with the slogan "Sodomizer" and cusing drag-bars in his pink cadillac with the bumper sticker "I <heart> NAMBLA" was against their normal desire, his abilities to handle weaponry in times of strife made the higher ups in the military chain of command overlook his "personal issues".  

When aliens came and abducted his Bolivian houseboy Javier, all bets were off, and Joseph (now known by the more masculine "Duke" at the request of his commanding officers) was pissed and ready to destroy everyone and everything in his way to get back Javier.  (Of course when Duke discovers the joys of the spicy Guatemalan gentleman just arriving in town, the fur will fly, but that's a plot point of Duke Forever we don't want to spoil...)


But really, do we need character development like this, or just a page of info and a quick-start guide so that we can begin to blow shit up?
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Character Development?

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
#1 by Rodzilla
2002-05-25 18:47:15
http://www.seriouszone.com
First!

Sorry, couldn't help myself :P

Official Serious Sam Forums Admin
UTO Site Director
#2 by Rodzilla
2002-05-25 18:48:48
http://www.seriouszone.com
On the topic of character development, it really depends what kind of a game it is.  Sure, all-out first person shooters don't need it, as in UT and Quake 3...I think the fact that they've fabricated a story for UT2k3 is rather stupid...but with FPSs like Doom 3, where the game is actually based around the story, yes, it's necessary.

Official Serious Sam Forums Admin
UTO Site Director
#3 by sentinel
2002-05-25 18:53:37
Actually, I think character development in games is very important, but instead of playing some character that supposedly has all kinds of character traits and an entire history, it would be much more fun if you'd have the option to develop the character yourself, e.g. choose how he goes about things.

The reason Max Payne doesn't involve any real character development is not because it's not needed but because it's impossible. You can't really solve any of the stuff happening in the game in any other way than blowing everybody involved away, so his character is pretty much fixed regardless of the backstory or how you feel about him.
#4 by UncleJeet
2002-05-25 18:55:54
Jesus, that was bad.  Please, listen to the man!  There is no need for that kind of "character development."

  If you insist on having the written word in your game, please learn from this excellent example we have before us....proof that not everyone who writes word is a writer.

  Blah.  I don't know....it was just....bad.  Not funny bad.  Just bad.  Bad.  Bad.  Bad.  (That's like, cubed and shit.)

  Don't mind me.  I'm in the office on a Saturday.  We have to work Monday.  Fuck all of you and your three-day weekend.  (And that goes for you Brits, too.  Just because.  Damned limeys.)

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#5 by Leslie Nassar
2002-05-25 19:00:22
http://departmentofinternets.com
Are you sure Scott was talking about character development from a story/backstory point of view and not from a product point of view?

It's be a shame to base an entire topic on a misinterpreted quote.

i like monkeys.  are you a monkey?
#6 by UncleJeet
2002-05-25 19:03:57
I don't blame Scott for saying goofy things.  I'm sure this was probably taken a bit out of context, anyway.

Besides, it's not his fault.  The man works under tremendous amounts of pressure and stress on a daily basis.  If he says something odd, it's probably just because he's nervous.  George is probably hungry again, and is salivating in Scott's general direction.

I'd say some fucked up shit too, if I was scared that I was could be eaten by a gluttonous cow at any moment!

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#7 by EricFate
2002-05-25 19:22:28
Quick start.  I don't want to know anything about about Duke's inner workings beyond what object I need to pick up to restore damage to them.

The entertainment comes from the carnage, not from the story.

Show me something interesting, and let me fill something full of bulletholes, knock it over, and set fire to it.  Which reminds me.  I really should go pick up GTA3 today.
#8 by Matthew Gallant
2002-05-25 19:24:44
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
Every game can benefit from a good character or ten. Even puzzle games. There is no such thing as a game that doesn't need characters. A lack doesn't preclude a game from being successful, but to say they aren't needed is to say extra sales aren't needed.

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#9 by Funkdrunk
2002-05-25 19:30:44
jflavius@bellatlantic.net
Matthew

Even puzzle games.


Explain please?  I agree with you on everything you wrote, but I can't figure out how a good character can help something like bejewled.

Funk.
#10 by UncleJeet
2002-05-25 19:41:20
Funk:

  DOCTOR MARIO!  ITZA MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Oh shit.  I've crossed into insanity - I just know it.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#11 by Matthew Gallant
2002-05-25 19:42:02
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
Funkdrunk:
Your proof, sir.

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#12 by Max Diablos
2002-05-25 19:49:15
Oh and for the record, Mr Miller: Duke Nukem is not even a thinly developed action character.  Duke Nukem is a one-dimensional steroidal idiot who spews so-called "witty one liners" after blowing the shit out of things that look remarkaby like Tony the Tiger and the warthog from The Lion King.


Philosophically this is enough to give a character substance however thin, as is the form of Lara Croft in the Tombraider games. But, it doesn't give the character depth. I'll cut Scott some slack and agree with him for the sake of argument. Duke Nukem is the best developed game character out there. But, that doesn't say much about Duke Nukem. It says more about the pathetic state of the game industry and the shallow crap it spawns.

No helter skelter. No over the rainbow bad trip apocalypse. Just us and this moment now. This is how it ends.
#13 by HoseWater
2002-05-25 19:50:40
barneyque@hotmail.com
I can not believe this made it in the state it is.  Someone should be embarrassed.

1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
#14 by Nathan McKenzie
2002-05-25 19:58:38
Matthew:

" Every game can benefit from a good character or ten. Even puzzle games. There is no such thing as a game that doesn't need characters. A lack doesn't preclude a game from being successful, but to say they aren't needed is to say extra sales aren't needed. "

Er...  um...

Saying that any game can benefit from a good character or ten is like saying that any paragraph can really benefit from an analogy, to use a tortured analogy :)  Good characters can be an extremely potent and compelling element of a game.  There is also an awful lot to be said for making your game tight and focused, though.

Should Archon have had some well-developed characters?  I'm sure an interesting game could be developed along those lines, but I don't think it would be the same.

Should Civ 3 or Alpha Centauri have meaningful, deep characters?  The Sims (mentioning this feels like a trick question)?  I feel like the closer you get to pure game, rather than one-off interactive experience, the more the presence of characters should be looked at with a critical eye.

I guess it depends on what you mean by a "good character".  Bub and Bob in Bust-a-Move are cute and appealing, and I think they enhance the game.  They also can't talk.

Adding characters can add a lot, but it can also hinder, mute, or dilute things, especially from first person.  I wish that Gordon Freeman hadn't existed in Half-Life.  There are of course people who would disagree with me, and quite strongly.  But Half-Life, to me, was just staggeringly immersive - and in that context, I don't want to be burdened with someone else's character when I'm looking at the world through my eyes.  The fact that all the scientists and barneys were pretty faceless and non-descript also worked in its favor for me - there was a certain sense of loneliness that the game provided that wouldn't have worked if more fleshed out characters had been present.

I just played through most of episode 1 of Doom earlier today, and I was likewise struck by the loneliness in the game.  I think it's actually because there are the corpses of dead marines and such everywhere - it gets across the feeling of a space that was once inhabited by people you could talk to, of a space that OUGHT to be inhabited, that has been emptied... which I think is a lot like Half-Life, and quite different from most other recent shooters...  there's sort of an implication of recent dramatic history in both conveyed by the environments.

Anyway, for me, that works very much in both games' favors.  I would not want every game ever to take the same approach, though.  Same with attention to characters.

Nathan
#15 by ProStyle
2002-05-25 20:01:45
http://prostyle.deviantart.com
I think we need to evaluate the idea of "characters" and "development" here. First off, in any FPS you have to realize you *are* the character. Part of the reason these games are fun is because when you do *uber-l33t-cool-things* like capturing the flag to win your match in TF or double-backing thirty-gazillion times to kill all the terrorists that outnumber you in CS, it's YOU that did it, and your heart is pounding out your chest. It doesn't really have anything to do with why you're a soldier or why you're a Counter-Terrorist. These things are just excuses to put you in a certain environment/gameplay situation, and they've all been/will be far cries from realism; enough so that you as a random spectator or person who had never played the game or heard anything about it before would not be able to make a judgement call as to what this game is *all about*. That's not what I'd call well 'developed'. Something that's instantly recognizable like the "bad guy" in action movies or something of that sort is "well developed."

But that's nothing more than a cheap stereotype, and I hope that's not what they're begging for in their games. I don't think you need any of this so called "development" at all. For example if I had to slosh through a back catalog of stories/text relating points about how my character acts in certain situations in the beginning of the game I don't think i'd be particularly impressed when after killing my first sewer-rat my character spits out a one-liner relating to the time he lit his asshair on fire at the boyscout lodge.

Backstory presented in a very artistic manner through more cinematic approaches like flashback sequences or different flybys could be really cool though, I don't think that it's totally worthless. It hasn't really been executed all that well though, I suppose. I don't know about you guys but i'm pretty damn impressed with the Doom3 screenshots and I imagine they could easily make an incredibly suspenseful game, and I don't imagine they'd be able to do it all that well without a professional writer to direct certain scenes that link up powerful sequences of events at x point in the game plot. It's alot harder to do that with just a level editor at your hands and no script, methinks. But, I certainly have no experience in the matter so I'll be quiet now.
#16 by Trunks
2002-05-25 20:08:39
Funkdrunk:
Your proof, sir.


Magical Drop rules!  Though for some reason I still prefer MD2 to MD3.

Oh yea, and the series also can't avoid the case of the scantily-clad bouncies.
#17 by Leslie Nassar
2002-05-25 20:39:48
http://departmentofinternets.com
Trunks:
Though for some reason I still prefer MD2 to MD3.

Heresy.  MD3 is the power and the glory, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end!  I don't know why people waste time making puzzle games in a post-MD3 world (I'm talking to you, Brian Hook).

i like monkeys.  are you a monkey?
#18 by Bailey
2002-05-25 21:02:22
Magic Drop II was the shizow. Mind you, I haven't had a chance to play MD3.

Life without shame.
#19 by Bailey
2002-05-25 21:07:16
Just a test.

#20 by Terata
2002-05-25 21:11:08
Magical Drop 3 is cool, but their characters are pretty wack.  Everybody just ends up picking the Empress or Strength all the time.  They've got far and away the best drop patterns.  The later Bust a Move games had the same problem, unfortunately, so I'm pretty happy to stick with the original.

I think the game's just too insanely frantic for me anyway, I think I saw the poor A button smoking last time I had it in the machine and let Matt Festa get near it...
#21 by Charles
2002-05-25 21:51:16
www.bluh.org
ProStyle -

Backstory presented in a very artistic manner through more cinematic approaches like flashback sequences or different flybys could be really cool though, I don't think that it's totally worthless. It hasn't really been executed all that well though, I suppose.


Oh please.  Do you even play games?


Anyway, on this whole topic of characters selling games, I really don't think it's that big of an issue.  The main point is brand recognition... not character recognition.  If Duke Nukem had been called, say, Yet Another Alien Game, people would know the game as Yet Another Alien Game, and things would most likely be the same as they are today.  

To dispute that fact would be to say that the Monkey Island games should have been called "The Adventures of Guybrush Threepwood" or something.  People remember the game... the title has little to do with it.  In the case of duke nukem, same as anything else, people remember the game.  

Of course, that isn't to say characters can't sell games...  For instance, if Bioware were to release an action adventure game called "The Adventures of Boo and Minsc", you can be damn sure that it would sell like hotcakes.  If only for the character development.  Minsc is one of the most entertaining characters I've seen in ages, and anyone who's played any of the Baldur's Gate games would most likely agree.  If you remember one character from any of the games, Minsc is who you'd remember.  Squeek.  

However, that doesn't mean that the Baldur's Gate games would have sold better if they'd been named "Minsc the Ranger".

Bailey:  Beep beep, motherfucker.
#22 by George Broussard
2002-05-25 21:57:55
georgeb@3drealms.com
Leslie,

Are you sure Scott was talking about character development from a story/backstory point of view and not from a product point of view?


I'm certain he meant from a franchise perspective and NOT a character depth perspective.  I'd think that was painfully clear to the article writer.  I assure you, we don't sit around talking about how "deep" Duke is as a character.

But yet another semi-anti 3DR thread.  We win.  More name recognition for Duke.

Maybe the writer should have focused on games like Deus Ex, or Metal Gear or something else where the characters grow a little more.  Raiden certainly changed from the start of Metal Gear 2 and transformed a bit.

Yes, even in action games, it would be nice to have characters that are 3 dimensional and grow over time.  I'm sure that's where action games are headed.  It'll just be a little time.
#23 by HoseWater
2002-05-25 22:28:23
barneyque@hotmail.com
No word from Scott in the last few days. I've seen posts from George on a bunch of sites though.

My theory, is that they have Scott locked away with Petri in a dark dingy room, a couple of bulging suits guarding the door, a single light hanging from the ceiling, very smokey, sitting across the table from each other, big sacks all around, we hear Scott speaking:

Scott: "One for me, one for you", "One for me, one for you"...
#24 by George Broussard
2002-05-25 22:33:22
georgeb@3drealms.com
Scott's been at E3.  Same for Petri.  I know better than to even post here anymore, but I was bored and you guys drew me into your den of evil once again :)
#25 by HoseWater
2002-05-25 22:35:46
barneyque@hotmail.com
I kind of thought that was what was going on, but I also heard that you guys were passing it up.

Just having a little fun though, no harm intended.  :)
#26 by Matt Perkins
2002-05-25 23:10:32
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
While the cats away, George will play.  Or something along those lines.

You know PC love to have developers with their wily ways post here, it makes it all the more fun.  :)

I think everygame is a beast onto itself.  You can't say all games are better with this rule, generally generalizations don't work.  :)

As for topic, the quote looks to be taken out of context...  and I voted no!  Whoever voted yes needs a smack with a goat.  And not one of those pretty goats...

LPMiller - "Really, I'm just a get along kinda a guy, all about the love."
#27 by Foodbunny
2002-05-25 23:13:45
foodbunny@attbi.com http://www.foodbunny.com
I always play Magical Drop as Temperance because she's cute.

If I have to fuck a garbage can I'm gonna fuck it in the ass.
#28 by Sgt Hulka
2002-05-25 23:28:20
In his day, Duke was the king of FPS.  Those days are gone.  Can Duke recapture that with DNF?  That's yet to be seen, but they've done it before, perhaps they can do it again.  

The first time I played Duke, I really didn't care much about him as a character.  He shot guns, and kicked things, and sounded like Bruce Campbell.  That's about all I remember of him as a character, but as a game, Duke kicked ass in it's day.  It had excellent multiplayer, remote camera systems, pipe bombs, jet packs, and other aspects of gameplay that wasn't being done in any other game.  That was the appeal of Duke, not the character himself.

....Don't be Left with the chimps. Evolve with us...
#29 by Leslie Nassar
2002-05-25 23:34:48
http://departmentofinternets.com
I play MD3 as Lovers because it looks like she's humping a flying pig.

i like monkeys.  are you a monkey?
#30 by Foodbunny
2002-05-25 23:49:31
foodbunny@attbi.com http://www.foodbunny.com
I think Twinkle Star Sprites also has a little girl humping a flying pig.

If I have to fuck a garbage can I'm gonna fuck it in the ass.
#31 by Matthew Gallant
2002-05-25 23:56:26
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
I can't say I really prefer playing with any character, I've been playing as The Wheel because she's good to get quick wins. I'm trying to get the Black Pierrot secret stage but the damn game cheats. I keep getting to the stage before when Black Pierrot would appear and losing. One time I got past that stage without losing but I didn't have a high enough score. BLEH!

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#32 by Terata
2002-05-26 00:07:58
I always throught Lovers was a he.
#33 by Nathan McKenzie
2002-05-26 01:17:31
This reminds me: I've always found it enormously odd that the Final Fantasy games haven't had any continuity - I mean that from a marketing perspective.  Very strange.  I await Suikoden 3 with rapt attention almost entirely because it's set in the same world as Suikoden 1 and 2 with some continuing characters.  The Dragon Warrior games did the same thing, I think - I'm not certain, but I have a feeling that was reflected in the tremendous sales of Dragon Warrior 7.  I know, I know the FF games already sell by the metric ton, but...

If there was another game that had Cloud, Tifa, Barret, and crew, it would be mine immediately.  If there were another game with Locke, Celes, Edgar, Sabin, and the rest of the cast of FF6, it would be mine as well.  I don't think I'm alone in this.

I _think_ I've read that FFXII continues with some of the same characters as FFX...  and so if I ever get around to playing through that, maybe that will make me nice and excited.  It's still no continuation of the worlds from 6 or 7, though :/

Silly square needs to listen to George B. more, dammit!  ;)

Nathan
#34 by Charles
2002-05-26 02:06:08
www.bluh.org
No way.  The best part of final fantasy games is that you know that when you finish the game, it's done with.  I much prefer completely contained stories than something that doesn't conclude properly.

Bailey:  Beep beep, motherfucker.
#35 by BobJustBob
2002-05-26 02:20:56
I think stories should stay out of my games. Some of the best games, such as Doom, Simcity, and Civilization, had no stories. The more games focus on story, the closer we get to crap like FFX.
#36 by Foodbunny
2002-05-26 02:24:48
foodbunny@attbi.com http://www.foodbunny.com
There's place for both types of games.  I like RPGs with strong stories and characters a lot.  Skies of Arcadia is a great example.  I also like more open-ended games like Fallout.  I wouldn't call either way of doing things "crap".

If I have to fuck a garbage can I'm gonna fuck it in the ass.
#37 by BabiG
2002-05-26 02:27:58
If there was another game that had Cloud, Tifa, Barret, and crew, it would be mine immediately.  If there were another game with Locke, Celes, Edgar, Sabin, and the rest of the cast of FF6, it would be mine as well.


Funny thing is if they followed your advice for the final fantasy series, one or both groups of characters that you like so much wouldn't exist...

"God is dead." --Nietzsche, 1883
"Nietzsche is dead." --God, 1900
#38 by Greg
2002-05-26 02:56:26
Hulka:

He shot guns, and kicked things, and sounded like Bruce Campbell.

Its funny, I remember playing Duke Nukem when he just shot guns and kicked things. And the big thing was that with it, you could get a Sega Genesis quality game on your PC!

-RAWWWWWRRRRRR!!! Quit cramping my style, bitch! RAAAAAWWWRRRR!!!
#39 by Bailey
2002-05-26 03:09:34
BabiG, are you suggesting fighter, black mage and thief aren't deeply involved characters who's appeal would last through the millenia? You fool!! Red mage is the most desirable IP in the gaming universe right now! I mean... a fighter AND a mage?

re: MD Lovers flying pig-humpery

I require linkage.

#40 by Bailey
2002-05-26 03:10:07
Wait, wait... who's... or whose? I'm hungry.

#41 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2002-05-26 03:16:33
Darkseid@captured.com www.sluggy.com
Doom did have a story and a backstory.
Civilisation does have a story, but not much backstory.

Ds
#42 by Matthew Gallant
2002-05-26 03:18:15
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
L'humpage du cochon

It's at the bottom.

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#43 by Jamiekin
2002-05-26 03:20:22
You know, pong could've done with a bit of character developement... you know, make him say "come get some" before every round.. I'm sure they could have coded that in under 1k...
#44 by Scott Miller
2002-05-26 03:42:15
scottmi11er@hotmail.com
>>> Scott Miller has on more than one occasion stated that Duke Nukem is the most well-developed video game action hero in existence.  Seriously.  He said that. <<<

Actually, no, I did not say this.  But, don't let the truth stop you.  ;-)

"A game should not be judged only on its appearance. It should be played before drawing conclusions." - Miyamoto
#45 by Terata
2002-05-26 03:50:20
I apologize, I clearly was thinking of Fool, who also rides an animal of some sort... I think.
#46 by Terata
2002-05-26 03:54:37
Also, Fighter and Black Mage kick ass.
#47 by JMCDaveL
2002-05-26 04:42:59
Greg bringing up the "Sega Genesis quality", you da man! Brings back memories..

--jmc
ICQ-121684 AIM-jmcdavel U=FAG0T
#48 by Bailey
2002-05-26 04:43:34
MattG

Thank you. My life is complete. Is this available in ROM form?

Terata

The difference with 8-Bit Theatre is they actually have been given entirely original character development. And yes, they do kick ass, especially BM.

#49 by Matthew Gallant
2002-05-26 04:43:53
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
No, Fool just has a kitty that he likes to throw around when he gets excited.

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#50 by Foodbunny
2002-05-26 04:49:34
foodbunny@attbi.com http://www.foodbunny.com
And that he occasionally stuffs in his mouth.

If I have to fuck a garbage can I'm gonna fuck it in the ass.
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Character Development?

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
P O S T   A   C O M M E N T

You need to be logged in to post a comment here. If you don't have an account yet, you can create one here. Registration is free.
C R A P T A G S
Simple formatting: [b]bold[/b], [i]italic[/i], [u]underline[/u]
Web Links: [url=www.mans.de]Cool Site[/url], [url]www.mans.de[/url]
Email Links: [email=some@email.com]Email me[/email], [email]some@email.com[/email]
Simple formatting: Quoted text: [quote]Yadda yadda[/quote]
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
There are currently 0 people browsing this site. [Details]