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T O P I C
A lucky man who made the grade
June 1st 2000, 23:39 CEST by Seth

In a move that suprised everyone, id software has announced that Paul Steed has been terminated from his position at the company.

Big news? Kinda - but it has nothing on why he was terminated. According to this John Carmack plan update, he was fired because he (possibly along with others) had presented Adrian Carmack and Kevin Cloud with an ultimatum that unless he (they) were fired he (they) would only work on Doom 3 for id's next project. So a rift developed at id between those who did, and those who didn't want to do it.

Is the id softare dynasty truly in demise?

I've never been a big fan of Paul Steed as a person, but there is no denying the art he is capable of producing. And he seems to have been fired for no good reason. Granted, I've never worked with the man - so I can't say I would enjoy working with him for any amount of time, but he seemed to get his job done with some kind of unnatural effeciency (that I only see really exhibited in John Carmack, out of everyone else in this industry). But it just seems strange that Kevin Cloud and Adrian Carmack (who own a 50% stake in id) would agree to do the project but fire him anyway.

Something tells me I shouldn't say "And that's the rest of the story." quite yet.

C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "Apache"
2000-06-01 23:39:47
apache@warzone.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
its insane!
#2 by "Billy Saw Hurock"
2000-06-01 23:41:40
billysawhurock@hotmail.com http://www.bloweduprealgood.com
Crazy Baby, Yeah!  That's what it is.  John C has lost his mind.  He is nothing more than a manipulator of variables.
#3 by "Andy"
2000-06-01 23:43:19
andy@planetcrap.com
"Kevin Cloud and Adrian Carmack (who own a 50% stake in id)" - they own more than 50%, that's why there was an ultimatum and why they were able to fire Steed.
#4 by ""
2000-06-01 23:45:09
<i>Thinking...</i>
#5 by "Dark Rabbit"
2000-06-01 23:45:27
dark_rabbit@mindless.com http://www.darkrabbit.com
I believe they - Kevin Cloud, Adrian Carmack, and John Carmack - each own third.  Of course if John got a divorce he would own a sixth and so would his wife...
#6 by "loonyboi"
2000-06-01 23:50:00
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#5</b> "Dark Rabbit" wrote...
<QUOTE>I believe they - Kevin Cloud, Adrian Carmack, and John Carmack - each own third. Of course if John got a divorce he would own a sixth and so would his wife... </QUOTE>

That's my understanding as well. So between them, those two artists own 66% of the company. I suppose this is a weird side effect of all the recent departures...although I don't know: was Cash an owner of the company? I don't believe so.

I said it on the Blue's messageboards, and I'll say it here: Doom without Romero just won't feel right.

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#7 by "Karl Palutke"
2000-06-01 23:53:30
palutkek@asme.org
Was PC down earlier?  I couldn't get to it from work today.
#8 by "MCorleone"
2000-06-01 23:56:00
john_st123@hotmail.com
Whoever posted this topic got some facts wrong, I think.  From what I read, it was more like Steed backing Carmack in the decision to make DoomIII.  Carmack was the only person who threatened to walk.  

As Carmack is the "meal ticket" for the rest of them, they had to give in to his wishes.  As a price, however, they exacted their revenge on Steed for siding with The Big C.  

Steed wouldn't be stupid enough to threaten resigning because he's replacable.  The Carmack is not, however, so he knew he was okay.  

With this much in-fighting, I can't see iD lasting through this summer.
#9 by "Seven Tacos"
2000-06-01 23:56:41
kurto@asgaard.usu.edu
No I don't think Cash was an owner. The last hired on employee who got a stake in the company was Abrash (I think.) I don't think we can say for sure why Steed was fired. Reading the various "tours" of the id offices it's known that the art team shared an office, so it's possible that words were shared... I think JohnC feels an obligation to Do The Right Thing, which is why we heard about it and it's only his interpretation of what happened.

I doubt that John would lose a half stake in the company if he were to get a divorce. He's not been married to Anna long enough for her to claim the normal part of being a behind the scenes player that allowed their spouse to build the company yada yada yada. It's possible that she would get something because she did work there, but then again she quit so maybe not.

It's too bad that Adrian and Kevin aren't known for sharing their thoughts with the world at large. I don't think we're going to hear their side.

But I'm excited about the prospects of Doom 3. Hopefully their contract with Bobby Prince again to do the music.
#10 by "Diseased"
2000-06-01 23:58:18
diseasedanimal@yahoo.com
Just curious here...what tangibly did Romero contribute to Doom?  Or Quake for that matter?  Was the the inspiration behind the enemies, the overall concept perhaps?  I keep hearing that he was an integral part in the creation of the two games, but am yet to hear what specifically he contributed that was so amazing.
#11 by "Karl Palutke"
2000-06-01 23:58:21
palutkek@asme.org
<quote>But it just seems strange that Kevin Cloud and Adrian Carmack (who own a 50% stake in id) would agree to do the project but fire him anyway.

I think they almost <i>had</i> to do the project . . . if J. Carmack left and took a few people with him, id would lose a lot of talent (since they're a small company, losing a few people would hurt).  Since id seems to be known for their technology over their content over the past few years, losing Carmack would be catastrophic.

I wonder . . . will this affect the further release of id source code?  Carmack said something about having to twist the other two owners' arms to get them to agree to relase the Quake source under the GPL.  If they have bad will after this is all done, they might be less agreeable to doing so in the future.
#12 by "Seven Tacos"
2000-06-02 00:00:23
kurto@asgaard.usu.edu
#8 Don't be silly. John Carmack may be an important part of id software, but the art team has absolutely done their part to contribute to the successes of id's games. Kevin and Adrian are easily as much a part of id's success as JohnC & JohnR.

After hearing the interviews with Carmack about how Q3A came about, I do think that there may be some stress developing. But I doubt that any of the principles at id are unable to deal with the situation.
#13 by "Karl Palutke"
2000-06-02 00:00:28
palutkek@asme.org
OK, let me try again.

<quote>But it just seems strange that Kevin Cloud and Adrian Carmack (who own a 50% stake in id) would agree to do the project but fire him anyway. </quote>

I think they almost had to do the project . . . if J. Carmack left and took a few people with him, id would lose a lot of talent (since they're a small company, losing a few people would hurt). Since id seems to be known for their technology over their content over the past few years, losing Carmack would be catastrophic.

Steed was probably fired because he was a target of opportunity.  Carmack said he'd done things that warranted dismissal.

I wonder . . . will this affect the further release of id source code? Carmack said something about having to twist the other two owners' arms to get them to agree to relase the Quake source under the GPL. If they have bad will after this is all done, they might be less agreeable to doing so in the future.
#14 by "Apache"
2000-06-02 00:03:24
apache@warzone.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
if we want to speculate, It's my take that the majority of guys at id wanted to make the doom game, a couple people did not (Adrian and Kevin) and had enough stock to make their opinion count more than it should've in the first place.

Paul probley got sick of the stand-off, made a move, and got the shit done. I can't even imagine an id without Paul Steed; quality animator/modelers don't grow on trees and it will be interesting to see if they (Adrian and Kevin) have enough sense to bring Paul back into the fold.
#15 by "Andy"
2000-06-02 00:04:24
andy@planetcrap.com
Seth - I hope George Broussard feels this is important news, or you'll be in <a href="http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/blammo.pl?mode=mboard&action=viewpost&id=8716#MSG_8716">trouble for reporting it</a>. :)

As for the new DOOM game - great news. I didn't 'discover' the original until after I'd played Quake so I found it hard to enjoy the engine. I'm looking forward to seeing what all the fuss was about.

Now, the Steed thing...

It sucks. Big-time. According to John Carmack, the guy was sacrificed in the temple of ego.

Adrian Carmack and Kevin Cloud were given a choice - sack John Carmack or do what they were told - and really that's no choice at all. They were forced to change their minds, so they took away a man's job just to show that they could.

From what I know of Paul Steed, I don't like him. From my personal involvement with him, I don't like him. Contrary to what the rest of the world has been saying, I thought he was <i>at best</i> a competent modeller and an average animator. All things being equal, I'm happy that he is no longer working at Id.

But it makes me sick that it happened in this way. This is the sort of thing that makes me want to boycott a company. There is already a petition online demanding that Id give Steed his job back. (I don't have the URL, but I'll try to post it later.)

The other angle...

Again, going solely on what John Carmack has said, Adrian Carmack and Kevin Cloud didn't want to make another DOOM game. And now they're making another DOOM game. Great, so let's get this straight - both texture artists are working on a game that they don't really want to make?

The project is only just beginning. Already we know that neither of the artists have their hearts in it. Not very promising, is it?

I hate to be negative, especially about a game that I'm already looking forward to playing, but when artistic people don't care about what they're creating, the end result generally isn't as good as it could have been.

--
"<i>Bring back Paul Steed! And then sack him for some other reason.</i>"
#16 by "Chris (kanaeda)"
2000-06-02 00:05:45
kanaeda@planetquake.com http://www.freshteam.co.uk
Quite honestly, I don't think we will ever find out about the real reason(s) for Paul's sacking at id. I'm <i>guessing</i> that the only reason that John mentioned it was to prevent this mess from refelcting negatively toward Paul Steed in future employment situations. And to start the hype machine for the next DooM game, of course. ;p

my <B>personal speculation</b> is... *snip*

yeah, i just deleted what i typed out before posting. why? cuz we aren't gonna find out what really went on at that company meeting, nor is it any of our business. anything regarding said meeting is nothing but what i had typed before... pure speculation.
#17 by "AmbushBug"
2000-06-02 00:21:18
ambushbug@portalofevil.com
I'm a bit curious as to what the project was that iD was originally working on, as much as I'm looking forward to a new doom it would still be nice to know what was behind door number one..

-AB
#18 by "Grinder"
2000-06-02 00:25:51
pimurho@cableinet.co.uk http://www.pimurho.org.uk
-AB
<b>#17</b> "AmbushBug" wrote...
<QUOTE>I'm a bit curious as to what the project was that iD was originally working on, as much as I'm looking forward to a new doom it would still be nice to know what was behind door number one..

-AB </QUOTE>

Rumour has (had?) it that they were working on a Massively Multiplayer game. That may have been complete bollocks though.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#19 by "Andy"
2000-06-02 00:33:18
andy@planetcrap.com
The Steed petition isn't a petition, it's just a poll, and it's nothing like I understood it to be. But here's the address anyway:

<a href="http://hypothermia.gamershardware.com/id_software.htm">http://hypothermia.gamershardware.com/id_software.htm</a>

The results page claims that over 10,000 people have voted so far. I find that <b>very</b> hard to believe!
#20 by "Phayyde"
2000-06-02 00:34:54
phayyde@chaosnow.com http://chaosnow.com/
All we have is one side of the story.  
And an announcement of a game that is at the very very least 18 months away.

Hardly enough meat here to fuel a true 'Crapping.
#21 by "MCorleone"
2000-06-02 00:40:44
john_st123@hotmail.com
The fact that an injustice commited in the field of gaming warrants a true crapping.  

And yes, there is a lot of speculation.  Unless you're new here, you'd know that's what the Crap is all about.
#22 by "crash"
2000-06-02 00:49:25
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Diseased (#10):
<i>Just curious here...what tangibly did Romero contribute to Doom?</i>

the complete level design for episode 1, minus the last level (E1M8--the star level). i.e. the shareware version. and, in my own personal opinion, the best fucking levels ever created for a first-person shooter. dunno about the rest of what he did for Doom, but i know this part for sure.

as for the rest of it, hmm. let's take the names out of this, and look at the situation objectively:

a development team is deciding the direction of their next project, and three of the team are 1/3 owners of the company. two of the owners do not wish to pursue a certain project, while the third--along with what this third person says is "everyone else on staff"--wishes to do something else. the pair do not wish to lose the third owner, so they grudgingly agree to the project. at the same time, however, an outspoken and controversial member of the team is let go. the third owner speculates that this is retaliatory in nature, while admitting that the person let go has been worthy of termination in the past.

other than this, we don't know what happened, and i'm sorry, but until CarmackNoRelation and Cloud speak up, i won't be making up my mind what happened in that room that day.

and i have to agree with Andy, as much as it pains me :) --when both your artists don't want to work on a project, the quality of the final product is worrying. then again, they'll have a year and a half (i'm thinkin next xmas, because it's likely they won't be making an entirely new engine) to hire more artists or whatever.

in any case, it's a startling development, but hardly a surprising one.
#23 by "None-1a"
2000-06-02 00:59:32
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#10</b> "Diseased" wrote...
<QUOTE>Just curious here...what tangibly did Romero contribute to Doom? Or Quake for that matter? Was the the inspiration behind the enemies, the overall concept perhaps? I keep hearing that he was an integral part in the creation of the two games, but am yet to hear what specifically he contributed that was so amazing. </QUOTE>

He's credited as an Artist, his real role was as a level designer (which is some times lumbed in with artistic development work if the company doesn't seperate levels, 3d, and textures).

<b>#22</b> "crash" wrote...
<QUOTE>a development team is deciding the direction of their next project, and three of the team are 1/3 owners of the company. two of the owners do not wish to pursue a certain project, while the third--along with what this third person says is "everyone else on staff"--wishes to do something else. the pair do not wish to lose the third owner, so they grudgingly agree to the project. at the same time, however, an outspoken and controversial member of the team is let go. the third owner speculates that this is retaliatory in nature, while admitting that the person let go has been worthy of termination in the past</QUOTE>

I'm acctauly a little shocked they acctualy admited he was worthy of termination at all, id has a history of creating some convencing stories where some one is fired so it doesn't mess with carers at a latter date I'm willing to bet the whole thing will turn into a creative differences report for the gaming rags (which it was this time, or at lest the story there telling at this point). <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#24 by "loonyboi"
2000-06-02 01:02:32
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#9</b> "Seven Tacos" wrote...
<QUOTE>No I don't think Cash was an owner. The last hired on employee who got a stake in the company was Abrash (I think.) I don't think we can say for sure why Steed was fired. Reading the various "tours" of the id offices it's known that the art team shared an office</QUOTE>

Nope, Paul had his own office.

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#25 by "loonyboi"
2000-06-02 01:04:14
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#8</b> "MCorleone" wrote...
<QUOTE>With this much in-fighting, I can't see iD lasting through this summer. </QUOTE>

Ahh....no.

id has <i>always</i> had this much in-fighting. I can't say i'd be shocked if Graeme Devine were to leave the company (it was his game that was canned by this announcement), but they're not going anywhere.

-jason<b>#8</b> "MCorleone" wrote...
<QUOTE>Whoever posted this topic got some facts wrong, I think. From what I read, it was more like Steed backing Carmack in the decision to make DoomIII. Carmack was the only person who threatened to walk.

As Carmack is the "meal ticket" for the rest of them, they had to give in to his wishes. As a price, however, they exacted their revenge on Steed for siding with The Big C.

Steed wouldn't be stupid enough to threaten resigning because he's replacable. The Carmack is not, however, so he knew he was okay.

With this much in-fighting, I can't see iD lasting through this summer. </QUOTE><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#26 by "Seven Tacos"
2000-06-02 01:10:33
kurto@asgaard.usu.edu
#24 - Steed had his own office in the new place or the old place? I distinctly remember reading that Steed shared an office with Cloud at least. But I also remember reading that they moved recently. Dunno though. It's more likely you would know these things than me, you being who you are and me being who I am...
#27 by "Stephanie"
2000-06-02 01:45:28
Stephanie@allgames.com http://www.allgames.com
<b>#26</b> "Seven Tacos" wrote...
<QUOTE>#24 - Steed had his own office in the new place or the old place? I distinctly remember reading that Steed shared an office with Cloud at least. But I also remember reading that they moved recently. Dunno though. It's more likely you would know these things than me, you being who you are and me being who I am... </QUOTE>

I think it may have been only in the new place...I remember the pic well of Paul bashing in the doors on the old offices from out in the cubby area.

Something's hokey here. I don't know what, or where, but something's hokey. You do NOT publically say you've fired an employee until a serious amount of time has gone by, 'specially in an arena as public as this one in good business practice (heh, of course, this is the gaming industry). Paul's out, fine,  he's talented as hell, I'm sure he'll land on his feet...but the way Carmack put the whole story is just weird.

I'm pretty much assuming we don't have the whole story, and reserving all judgement until we get it.

I do feel rather bad for Graeme Devine tho...what does this to do to him and his game?


<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#28 by "Stephanie"
2000-06-02 01:45:38
Stephanie@allgames.com http://www.allgames.com
<b>#26</b> "Seven Tacos" wrote...
<QUOTE>#24 - Steed had his own office in the new place or the old place? I distinctly remember reading that Steed shared an office with Cloud at least. But I also remember reading that they moved recently. Dunno though. It's more likely you would know these things than me, you being who you are and me being who I am... </QUOTE>

I think it may have been only in the new place...I remember the pic well of Paul bashing in the doors on the old offices from out in the cubby area.

Something's hokey here. I don't know what, or where, but something's hokey. You do NOT publically say you've fired an employee until a serious amount of time has gone by, 'specially in an arena as public as this one in good business practice (heh, of course, this is the gaming industry). Paul's out, fine,  he's talented as hell, I'm sure he'll land on his feet...but the way Carmack put the whole story is just weird.

I'm pretty much assuming we don't have the whole story, and reserving all judgement until we get it.

I do feel rather bad for Graeme Devine tho...what does this to do to him and his game?


<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#29 by "loonyboi"
2000-06-02 02:02:21
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#26</b> "Seven Tacos" wrote...
<QUOTE>#24 - Steed had his own office in the new place or the old place? I distinctly remember reading that Steed shared an office with Cloud at least. But I also remember reading that they moved recently. Dunno though. It's more likely you would know these things than me, you being who you are and me being who I am... </QUOTE>

In the old place he had his own office...I don't know about the new office space, but I assume he did there as well.

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "McGrew"
2000-06-02 02:07:58
mcgrew@famvid.com http://TheFragfest.com
If I were a betting man, my money would say Steed will be back. Of course, there's a reason I'm not a betting man...

-Steve
#31 by "Jeremy"
2000-06-02 02:08:14
jnthornh@eos.ncsu.edu
<b>#28</b> "Stephanie" wrote...
<QUOTE>You do NOT publically say you've fired an employee until a serious amount of time has gone by.... the way Carmack put the whole story is just weird. </QUOTE>
The company hasn't yet officially announced <I>anything</I> about the issue.  Carmack's .plan seemed to be an effort to beat everybody else to the punch; by being first, he in turn is hoping to be heard the loudest.

I don't pretend to have any inside knowledge of what's going on at id, but it seems to me that Carmack is harboring some serious bitterness toward A.C. and Cloud.

No matter how it all turns out... this is definitely interesting.

I just have this sneaking suspicion that this is the beginning of the end for id.

Jeremy<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#32 by "Darkseid"
2000-06-02 02:24:46
Darkseid-D@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
*tosses rock into pond*

what would id be sans John Carmack.

does carmack _need_ the rest of id


Tom Hall, John Romero, John Carmack, Abrash, Hook.... were the guys mainly behind Doom.


Hall is now Gathering of Developers

Romero is now Ion Storm

Carmack is id



Now, as I recall, the codeword 'Trinity' was bandied about, what say ... that Carmack Hall and Romero reunited as Trinity developments ..... bringing with them elements of their teams to make Doom Evolution (yeah concept name)

sounds outlandish ..... but feasble and oh my wouldnt that create waves...


Doom Evolution, take the landscopes of Halo/Tribes, take the development of System Shock 2 / Half Life, Add the quake3 glitz and networking models, take the design abilities of Hall and Romero, the modelling abilities of Steed, the engine genuis of Carmack .... and the desire of all to make the game, and not have to worry about funding..

*tosses next rock into pond*

Oh John, I know just where you could pick up a whole new team ..... *points at TTLG*.....



Speculation of course .... but you have to admit .. its enough to make you salivate.


Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#33 by "Darkseid"
2000-06-02 02:32:04
Darkseid-D@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
addendum

DOH!

Hall is at Ion on Deus Ex

thinking of Mike Wilson, the ex Biz guy (pre Anna Kang/Carmack)

Barret 'Bear' Alexander is at ROgue I think ....




if it falls through ... anyone want to lay bets as to where Mr Steed ends up ?

Bungie working on Halo ?
Epic working on 'Worlds of Unreal'
Raven working on SOF2
Gaia working on Werewolf
3Dr working on Duke4ever
Ion Storm working on Anachronox or perhaps Romeros next title
Eidos working on Tomb Raider 5 (joke...)


Ds
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#34 by "Dethstryk"
2000-06-02 02:33:04
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>#31</b> "Jeremy" wrote...
<QUOTE>I don't pretend to have any inside knowledge of what's going on at id, but it seems to me that Carmack is harboring some serious bitterness toward A.C. and Cloud.</QUOTE>
I think this much is obvious just by how he stated Paul Steed was fired:

<QUOTE>Kevin and Adrian fired Paul Steed in retaliation, over my opposition.</QUOTE>
In a way, I know John Carmack has to be sorry. Because they can't get rid of one of the corner stones of id Software, they fired one helluva modeler because he was in the opposition, and they are going to have a time finding someone with equal amounts of talent. I think that is apparent by id wanting to hire <b>two</b> now artists to replace the amount of talent Paul had. Also:

<QUOTE>Paul has certainly done things in the past that could be grounds for dismissal, but this was retaliatory for him being among the "conspirators".</QUOTE>
Once again, the word retaliation has been brought up. If you ask me, John Carmack is saying that Adrian and Kevin did this because they are a big bunch of crybabies, if you ask me. It also seems to me that they had some mixed feelings about Paul Steed and this was the perfect opportunity to get rid of him.

I wish the best of luck to Paul Steed. Surely, this was an inredibly unfair way to get rid of him and I wish there was some way Adrian and Kevin could be reprimanded.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#35 by "Dethstryk"
2000-06-02 02:35:39
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
I heard a comment today that they doubted id Software could recreate Doom that well because they didn't have John Romero to help design the game.

Just so people remember, and I know you are already trying to put it out of your head, but <b>John Romero also designed Daikatana.</b> He's not a god.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#36 by "Andy"
2000-06-02 02:36:13
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#32</b>, Darkseid - I've always got the impression that Carmack and Romero didn't get along very well, so I can't imagine them both abandoning their current companies to start working together again.

But yeah, it's a dream combination. Carmack's tech and Romero's design, mmm...
#37 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-06-02 02:38:41
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Most of LG has been snatched up by other companies I believe.  That window of opporunity is closed.  :)
#38 by "crash"
2000-06-02 02:40:46
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<i>Just so people remember, and I know you are already trying to put it out of your head, but John Romero also designed Daikatana. He's not a god.</i>

couple of major differences here, Dethstryk (and yes, i know he's not a god :) --

1. in Doom, he was working on the game directly as his primary responsibility
2. in Doom, he was not responsible for any administration whatsoever (to the best of my knowledge)

i can't help but wonder how Dai would have turned out had Romero done more actual hands-on game design, rather than finishing-up and polishing work. yeah, i know that would have meant a three-year dev cycle... hmm. but it did anyway. :)

i wonder. if he knew then what he knows now, would he have had a more hands-on approach, and, if so, would that have made a better game? guess we'll never know.
#39 by "Ouroboros"
2000-06-02 02:57:39
ouroboros@volitionwatch.com http://descent.gamestats.com
If this is accurate, we've just witnessed the beginning of the end for id software. With the flub that is Quake III, they slipped up. Royally. Frankly, all the other major online games - Tribes, Unreal Tournament, TFC - whupped it. These internal issues are reminding me - a lot - of what happened in Ion Storm. Frankly, I don't know why John Carmack even bothers with id if there's so much bad blood. Think of how much money he could make just by programming and licensing engines for a living. Because, face it, that's all id is making these days. Engines. It started with Quake 1, and it's gotten really severe. id starts with an engine and then releases it with content almost as an afterthought. Besides, we already had Doom III - it was called Quake II. Think about it - Hyperblaster==Plasma Rifle. BFG==BFG. Exploding barrels. Great raw-action single play where the player is a downed marine. Great multiplayer. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
#40 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-06-02 03:00:43
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>I wish the best of luck to Paul Steed. Surely, this was an inredibly unfair way to get rid of him and I wish there was some way Adrian and Kevin could be reprimanded. </quote>
Well, if you look over Carmack's statements, he mentions that Steed could of/should of been fired on some other occasion. If there was dissention, this was an opportunity to effectively retroactively fire the guy for the things he'd done in the past.

In a sense, Steed did Steed in when he did whatever he did originally... (erm, yeah).
#41 by "Dethstryk"
2000-06-02 03:04:35
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>#40</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<QUOTE>Well, if you look over Carmack's statements, he mentions that Steed could of/should of been fired on some other occasion. If there was dissention, this was an opportunity to effectively retroactively fire the guy for the things he'd done in the past.

In a sense, Steed did Steed in when he did whatever he did originally... (erm, yeah).</QUOTE>
I don't disagree with you in the least bit, but if they are firing him for things he did in the past, then they should have done so when the "bad things he did" happened in the first place. It doesn't make any sense to me for these two to wait and get rid of him when he did nothing but side with John Carmack in an issue that Carmack made clear that most of the company was behind.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#42 by "loonyboi"
2000-06-02 03:15:06
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
Personally speaking, I don't know what to think of the new Doom game. Like the whole Return to Wolf thing, I think the game concept itself is going to feel sorta...dated.

I mean, really...does anyone still think all that silly satan/pentagram/evil demon guys is still cool? The few references of that nature in Q3A feel weird, but at least it's not the whole game.

On the other hand, a giant, 3D Cyberdemon has got to be the coolest concept ever for a videogame. Unfortunately, Steed won't be animating it...can you <i>imagine</i> how badass a huge Steed/Scott Cyberdemon would be?

Damn.

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#43 by "Dethstryk"
2000-06-02 03:21:21
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>#42</b> "loonyboi" wrote...
<QUOTE>I mean, really...does anyone still think all that silly satan/pentagram/evil demon guys is still cool? The few references of that nature in Q3A feel weird, but at least it's not the whole game.</QUOTE>
I'd much rather prefer the Satanic stuff, which was carried out quite nicely in DOOM, over something that is truly silly, like robotic frogs and mosquitoes in a recent game. You know what I'm talking about.. I'm just too burned out on the game to even mention it.

<QUOTE>On the other hand, a giant, 3D Cyberdemon has got to be the coolest concept ever for a videogame. Unfortunately, Steed won't be animating it...can you imagine how badass a huge Steed/Scott Cyberdemon would be?</QUOTE>
Sure, and this has been a dream for DOOM fans for quite a while. Personally, after this whole new DOOM game comes out, I hope I see a project to recreate the original levels in the first game with this new technology. Who wouldn't want to fight the Cyberdemon in E2M8 all over again?


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#44 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-06-02 03:34:28
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<quote>It doesn't make any sense to me for these two to wait and get rid of him when he did nothing but side with John Carmack in an issue that Carmack made clear that most of the company was behind. </quote>
Maybe he was on probation for swearing at (not John) Carmack or Cloud, and during the heated meeting he called him something extremely manly (since he's a manly kind of guy).

But no, it doesn't make a lot of sense, unless it was a way for Carmack to help Steed get another job...
#45 by "Andrew Stine"
2000-06-02 03:34:36
linguica@doomworld.com http://www.doomworld.com
Thanks to Frans de Vries for this...

DOOM
====

Map Name Who?
----------------------------------------------
E1M1 Hangar John Romero
E1M2 Nuclear Plant John Romero
E1M3 Toxin Refinery John Romero
E1M4 Command Control Sandy Petersen
E1M5 Phobos Lab John Romero
E1M6 Central Processing John Romero
E1M7 Computer Station John Romero
E1M8 Phobos Anomaly Sandy Petersen
E1M9 Military Base John Romero

E2M1 Deimos Anomaly Sandy Petersen
E2M2 Containment Area Sandy Petersen
E2M3 Refinery Sandy Petersen
E2M4 Deimos Lab Sandy Petersen
E2M5 Command Center Sandy Petersen
E2M6 Halls of the Damned Sandy Petersen
E2M7 Spawning Vats Sandy Petersen
E2M8 Tower of Babel Sandy Petersen
E2M9 Fortress of Mystery Sandy Petersen

E3M1 Hell Keep Sandy Petersen
E3M2 Slough of Despair Sandy Petersen
E3M3 Pandemonium Sandy Petersen
E3M4 House of Pain Sandy Petersen
E3M5 Unholy Cathedral Sandy Petersen
E3M6 Mt. Erebus Sandy Petersen
E3M7 Limbo Sandy Petersen
E3M8 Dis Sandy Petersen
E3M9 Warrens Sandy Petersen

Ultimate DOOM
=============

Map Name Who?
----------------------------------------------
E4M1 Hell Beneath American McGee
E4M2 Perfect Hatred John Romero
E4M3 Sever The Wicked Shawn Green
E4M4 Unruly Evil American McGee
E4M5 They Will Repent Tim Willits/Theresa Chasar
E4M6 Against Thee Wickedly John Romero
E4M7 And Hell Followed John Anderson
E4M8 Unto The Cruel Shawn Green
E4M9 Fear (secret level) Tim Willits

DOOM II
=======

Map Name Who?
----------------------------------------------
MAP01 Entryway Sandy Petersen
MAP02 Underhalls American McGee
MAP03 The Gantlet American McGee
MAP04 The Focus American McGee
MAP05 The Waste Tunnels American McGee
MAP06 The Crusher American McGee
MAP07 Dead Simple American McGee
MAP08 Tricks and Traps Sandy Petersen
MAP09 The Pit Sandy Petersen
MAP10 Refueling Base Sandy Petersen
MAP11 'O' of Destruction! John Romero
MAP12 The Factory Sandy Petersen
MAP13 Downtown Sandy Petersen
MAP14 The Inmost Dens American McGee
MAP15 Industrial Zone John Romero
MAP16 Suburbs Sandy Petersen
MAP17 Tenements John Romero
MAP18 The Courtyard Sandy Petersen
MAP19 The Citadel Sandy Petersen
MAP20 Gotcha! John Romero
MAP21 Nirvana Sandy Petersen
MAP22 The Catacombs American McGee
MAP23 Barrels O' Fun Sandy Petersen
MAP24 The Chasm Sandy Petersen
MAP25 Bloodfalls Shawn Green
MAP26 The Abandoned Mines John Romero
MAP27 Monster Condo Sandy Petersen
MAP28 The Spirit World Sandy Petersen
MAP29 The Living End John Romero
MAP30 Icon of Sin Sandy Petersen
MAP31 Wolfenstein Sandy Petersen
MAP32 Grosse Sandy Petersen
#46 by "Phayyde"
2000-06-02 03:49:39
phayyde@chaosnow.com http://chaosnow.com/
Hey [21] McCorleone,

This yours?
<QUOTE>"And yes, there is a lot of speculation. Unless you're new here, you'd know that's <B>what the Crap is all about</B>. "</QUOTE>

So you know <B>what the 'Crap is all about</B>, eh pudgy?  Why don't you enlighten us?  Unless, of course, it's all just your <B>personal speculation</B>.
#47 by "Dethstryk"
2000-06-02 03:53:26
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>#45</b> "Andrew Stine" wrote...
<QUOTE>E2M1 Deimos Anomaly Sandy Petersen
E2M2 Containment Area Sandy Petersen
E2M3 Refinery Sandy Petersen
E2M4 Deimos Lab Sandy Petersen
E2M5 Command Center Sandy Petersen
E2M6 Halls of the Damned Sandy Petersen
E2M7 Spawning Vats Sandy Petersen
E2M8 Tower of Babel Sandy Petersen
E2M9 Fortress of Mystery Sandy Petersen </QUOTE>
You know, speaking of which, what has Sandy Petersen been up to these days? I didn't think he was still at id.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#48 by ""
2000-06-02 03:54:36
it looks like sandy petersen did more than romero. where does sandy petersen work now?
#49 by ""
2000-06-02 03:55:53
#47 damn you beat me to it
#50 by "Serpwidgets"
2000-06-02 03:56:52
serpwidgets@hotmail.com http://people.ce.mediaone.net/serpwidgets/index.ht
Welcome to the kindergarten department at iD...<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
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Home » Topic: A lucky man who made the grade

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