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How much does SafeDisc cost?
May 6th 2002, 22:58 CEST by Matthew Gallant

Because for Bethesda, it almost cost them that plus whatever chunk of my $50 they get.

This is not a warez thread. Read more.

I purchased Morrowind today, and proceeded to try and install it. Big mistake! I get to 67% complete-- catastrophic error. I try again, get a CRC error at 95%, retry, it moves on, gets to 100%, another error. But, the icon is on the desktop. Maybe it will run. No, it won't. Won't uninstall either. And now all my JPG files have the Morrowind icon.

No problem, that's what the System Restore feature is for. Everything's back to how it was yesterday. I try again and fail again. I finally have the idea of sharing the CD-ROM drive of another computer on my network and installing from that. Luckily, I can still play the game by putting the CD into my computer instead of having to put it into the other computer. Thank goodness for small favors.

I mean, sure, I have a three week old CD-ROM drive that reads every other disc I've put into it fine, but apparently that's not good enough. No, I need a five year-old Plextor that won't go too fast and misread the crazy messed up SafeDisc.

So, I guess what needs to happen is that InstallShield needs to add some special cases to their code when installing from a SafeDisc CD. Or maybe CD-ROM drive manufacturers should put "SafeDisc Compatible" stickers on their boxes. Or, or publishers could demand that SafeDisc not prevent legitimate users from installing the software. How about that?
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Home » Topic: How much does SafeDisc cost?

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#1 by "r a w p o w e r"
2002-05-06 22:59:34
backonthemap@hotmail.com
Useless.
#2 by crash
2002-05-06 23:00:46
who published it?

just... weary.
#3 by "Zaccix"
2002-05-06 23:14:30
zaccix@beyondunreal.com http://www.beyondunreal.com/
Remember the problems with Safedisc and Tiberian Sun as well?

Safedisc is a piece...
#4 by Tom Cleghorn
2002-05-06 23:23:35
Folks, if we all concentrate at the same time on Safedisc vanishing from history, it might happen.

Hit me - I'm wasting valuable time.
#5 by jjohnsen
2002-05-06 23:29:09
http://www.johnsenclan.com
So return the game.  We all keep buying games that have safedisc, and publishers keep putting it on their games.

love is good, butter brings on the love...
#6 by jjohnsen
2002-05-06 23:30:33
http://www.johnsenclan.com
How many copies of JK II have been sold, and did not having copy protection affect that number?  If it sold millions of copies I'm guessing publishers wouldn't care as much about safedisc.

love is good, butter brings on the love...
#7 by JP
2002-05-06 23:31:40
any views from 'crappers employed by a game publisher on this matter?  i still haven't heard any arguments as to why safedisc is a good idea.

as a developer, anything that potentially prevents paying customers from playing something i made is on par with a class A bug in the final version.  very bad news.

any numbers on / conjectures as to whether the inclusion of safedisc protection has any impact whatosever on the speed and extent to which a title is warez'd?  i can't recall any game - ever - that didn't get circulated in pirate circles because "man, that copy protection was just too tough to crack, sorry kids no warez version of this game!".
#8 by jjohnsen
2002-05-06 23:38:35
http://www.johnsenclan.com
#7 JP

As far as I can tell, copy protection like safedisc just makes them look that much cooler to their friends when they crack it.

The game was on the donkey almost a week ago so I'm thinking safedisc hasn't done its job.  Publishers need a totally uncrackable copy protection that works.  Not a copy protection that works sometimes, but crashes your computer other times.

And for Matthews troubles, just wait a few days for the no-cd crack and your worries are over.  Most games I buy go immediately back into the box for safekeeping while I play with the crack.  Any cd left in my computer eventually gets used for a frisbee by my daughter.

love is good, butter brings on the love...
#9 by jjohnsen
2002-05-06 23:40:18
http://www.johnsenclan.com
And there's another thread in the submission bin concerning Morrowind.  Could Bethesda be the new nazis?

love is good, butter brings on the love...
#10 by Bailey
2002-05-06 23:44:39
The no-CD crack is already out, and from what I saw of it, worked quite nicely. The occasional stuttering in the game was removed, at the very least.

Um... Sorry about all that genocide.
#11 by Matthew Gallant
2002-05-06 23:58:58
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
Oh, I already have the crack. It was out almost immediately. Apparently somebody's developed a program that works like a virus detector to clean all the SafeDisc code out of any executable. The SafeDisc-less Morrowind .exe improves performance in-game too supposedly. I don't know because I've never run it un-cracked.

That wouldn't have helped with the install though. And it certainly doesn't help Casual Gamer who has no idea about cracks.

The game was on the donkey almost a week ago so I'm thinking safedisc hasn't done its job.

I don't think the goal of SafeDisc is to stop all piracy, just EZ CD-Creator piracy.

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#12 by Charles
2002-05-07 00:24:47
www.bluh.org
And there's another thread in the submission bin concerning Morrowind.  Could Bethesda be the new nazis?


It's not about morrowind, read the full topic :P

Bailey:  Beep beep, motherfucker.
#13 by Ed
2002-05-07 00:40:10
coj@funkatron.com http://www.funkatron.com
Quick hijack:

http://homepage.mac.com/rickmccallum/.Movies/YodaTrailer.mov

Holy Shit!

i need assertion devils inside my eye won't let up any motion
i need a surgeon devils inside won't cut me any slack
#14 by Ed
2002-05-07 00:40:32
coj@funkatron.com http://www.funkatron.com
ah fuck

http://homepage.mac.com/rickmccallum/.Movies/YodaTrailer.mov

i need assertion devils inside my eye won't let up any motion
i need a surgeon devils inside won't cut me any slack
#15 by Matthew Gallant
2002-05-07 00:42:56
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
404, Ed.

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#16 by jjohnsen
2002-05-07 00:43:41
http://www.johnsenclan.com
I thought Yoda would look foolish in battle until I saw that.  He looks pretty pissed about something.

love is good, butter brings on the love...
#17 by Chris Johnson
2002-05-07 00:48:46
Ed:  Mac.com apparently shut down the page.

"My main objective is to be professional but to kill him.  That's what it comes to. He should want to kill me because I want to kill him. But I still love him."  -Mike Tyson, waxing philosophic about Lennox Lewis.
#18 by Ed
2002-05-07 00:49:54
coj@funkatron.com http://www.funkatron.com
Yes.  Shut down, and I didn't wget it.  Curse ye, Odin!

Anyway, it was pretty badass.

i need assertion devils inside my eye won't let up any motion
i need a surgeon devils inside won't cut me any slack
#19 by Creole Ned
2002-05-07 00:54:14
I would rather see Episode II when it, you know, opens in theaters...and not have to weed through potential spoilers on PC before the movie is even out. Does no one here want to be surprised by anything anymore?

As for Safedisc, I spit on thee, but I doubt publishers will stop using it, regardless of the complaints. They're obviously willing to suck up a few returns if it keeps Joe Compaq from making copies for all his friends.

I thought crates are the new space nazis bearmonkeys. - Funkdrunk
#20 by Ed
2002-05-07 01:04:06
coj@funkatron.com http://www.funkatron.com
I would rather see Episode II when it, you know, opens in theaters...and not have to weed through potential spoilers on PC before the movie is even out. Does no one here want to be surprised by anything anymore?


No, I don't want to be surprised by anything.  And I hope I eliminated surprise for everyone else by posting a link to a fuzzily-filmed 30-second clip of a character doing stuff that everyone already knew he was gonna do.

i need assertion devils inside my eye won't let up any motion
i need a surgeon devils inside won't cut me any slack
#21 by Duality
2002-05-07 01:06:19
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
I read all of the spoilers on Corona's Coming Attractions.  So I've ruined any sort of surprise for myself.  And I'm happier for it.

The butter religion will spread nicely.
#22 by Bailey
2002-05-07 01:20:35
The yoda.mov loaded just fine for me? Anyway, are people really that fucking raucous in theatres? I've never heard anything like that.

Um... Sorry about all that genocide.
#23 by crash
2002-05-07 01:26:13
Creole Ned:

Does no one here want to be surprised by anything anymore?

having a highly-trained and deliberately poor short-term memory does wonders for the element of surprise. people tell you all kinds of secrets when they're sure you'll forget 'em 45 seconds after they stop talking, too. plus you can always bust out, "Sorry, I forgot what you said" less than a minute after you've been told something--and it'll be true!

all kinds of advantages there, i think.

just... weary.
#24 by LPMiller
2002-05-07 01:32:42
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Hmmm?

I believe I can fly......urk.
#25 by curst
2002-05-07 01:33:24
curst@zombieworld.com
The no-Safedisc crack is an absolute MUST in my opinion.  My framerates didn't increase too noticably - I have a shit system but with a GeForce 3 it runs well enough, say, around 20FPS at low detail even in high-detail areas like towns, and this may have gone up 1 or 2 FPS, it's just that I can't notice any improvement.  However, the load times are MUCH MUCH MUCH faster.  Given how many times I've died because of my almost uncontrollable urge to mug every shopkeeper I encounter, this is an enormous improvement.

And the beauty of this crack is that it isn't completely devoid of Safedisc code.  You still need the CD to start the game, and naturally you'll need the CD to install it (which unfortunately is no help to fellows like Matthew - that truly sucks, man).  It only removes the almost non-stop Safedisc, um, 'spamming' that was occuring while you were actually in the middle of a game.  So call me crazy, but I believe it does a flawless job of ensuring that it won't cause rampant illegitimate copying, yet improves game performance on at least one level for almost everyone who uses it.  Hell, RPGPlanet left a forum thread that linked to the patch untouched because the moderators recognized its usefulness.

Also, note to jjohnsen - a Safedisc boycott, in theory, maybe a good idea, assuming that enough people who were up in arms about Safedisc could actually make a noticable dent by refusing to buy games that use it.  The problem is, how do you know that it's being used?  Safedisc caused major problems for Pool Of Radiance 2, yet I didn't have a damn clue as to its usage until people started complaining about not being able to read the CD in the tech support forums.  It's not mentioned on the box, and I saw no mention of it in the three reviews I read (Gamers, Gamespot, Avault).  The Morrowind box doesn't mention it either.  How do I boycott the correct products when there is no industry standard for boxes to display a "Warning: Safedisc Is Used For This Product And Will Likely Prevent Your Legitimately-Purchased Game From Running Optimally Or Even At All On Your Next-Generation Machine" label on them?

ODBhuddist
#26 by HiredGoons
2002-05-07 02:13:46
Creole Ned

I would rather see Episode II when it, you know, opens in theaters...and not have to weed through potential spoilers on PC before the movie is even out. Does no one here want to be surprised by anything anymore?


A loud amen to that.

A **spoiler alert** about any Ep II material would be much appreciated.  It wouldn't have hurt with Spiderman either.

kthx.
#27 by Chris Johnson
2002-05-07 02:17:49
The yoda.mov loaded just fine for me? Anyway, are people really that fucking raucous in theatres? I've never heard anything like that.


From what I understand it was filmed at a... well... a geek festival during a seminar on Star Wars, the FX in it, etc.  This was basically a teaser dealing with the FX of that particular part, if I undertstand correctly.

So yeah.... under THOSE circumstances, it's likely it's common.

"My main objective is to be professional but to kill him.  That's what it comes to. He should want to kill me because I want to kill him. But I still love him."  -Mike Tyson, waxing philosophic about Lennox Lewis.
#28 by "Anonymous"
2002-05-07 02:37:37
A **spoiler alert** about any Ep II material would be much appreciated.  It wouldn't have hurt with Spiderman either.



******* SPOILER ALERT !!!!! *************




























 Yoda is a fucking badass.

 -Xian
#29 by Hugin
2002-05-07 02:38:48
lmccain@nber.org
An action or sci-fi movie in a black neighborhood can get pretty raucus.  Cheers, editorial comments, all sorts of things.  Usually more clever than the dialogue on screen.
#30 by Bailey
2002-05-07 03:01:50
Huh. Small wonder it's new to me, this ain't called the Great White North for nothing, you know.

Um... Sorry about all that genocide.
#31 by jjohnsen
2002-05-07 03:03:41
http://www.johnsenclan.com
The yoda.mov loaded just fine for me? Anyway, are people really that fucking raucous in theatres?


I saw Episode 1 the saturday after it opened and when the Lucasfilm logo came up people started yelling and cheering.  Needless to say, my wife got worried right then about what kind of geekfest was about to take place.

From what I understand it was filmed at a... well... a geek festival during a seminar on Star Wars, the FX in it, etc.


Yeah, its called Star Wars celebration.  Theres a blow-by-blow account here.  Basically standing in line for hours to get an autograph with C-3PO and listen to speeches by special effects artists.

love is good, butter brings on the love...
#32 by Kinetech
2002-05-07 03:29:12
#11, Matthew Gallant
I don't think the goal of SafeDisc is to stop all piracy, just EZ CD-Creator piracy.


Precisely.

SafeDisc won't prevent warezing, and we know that. But, if it prevents Joe Casual from burning a copy for his buddy, then it's worth it. Unfortunately, we have to do something to try to stem the tide of casual piracy.

To address the main question, I'm not at liberty to divulge our actual costs on implementing SafeDisc, but suffice it to say that it is a negligible addition to the final Cost of Goods on finished product.

SafeDisc sucks, and I know that the error you describe is not uncommon for many games. I have fought with Macrovision on this, and they always give me a runaround. I just wish Macrovision would admit that sometimes, under certain configurations, their "solution" doesn't work, and then fix the fucking thing.

I am, admittedly, watching the PCData numbers on JKII with great interest. I think this is an interesting experiment that could impact how the industry deals with IP protection.

Look upon me! I'll show you the life of the mind!
#33 by LPMiller
2002-05-07 04:26:26
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
We've had this discussion before though. Safe disc doesn't do shit about casual copying, thanks to the wonderful world of no cd patches and gamecopyworld.

It prevents super duper casual piracy by Warren's Dad. Maybe my mother. That's about it.

But because of how it writes at the lowest level of the CD media, it gives way too many drives fits in trying to read it. A drive needs to be designed with the proper emf encoding right at the start - which Phillips and Lite On both do with the CDROMs and CDRW drives. Plextor does it, but only because of Variable Rec, there music ripping protocal, requires it. Lite On wants to corner the market on cheap burners you can make perfect copies with, and they are doing it. 88 bucks, and I have a Safe Disc 2 killer - though half the time I recommend them just so people can play the damn game they bought.


How much does Safedisc 2 hurt the brand name when it takes 10 mins for the install program to even launch? How much does that cost? How much does it cost in tech support calls? Forum support?

Seems to me, whatever you are paying for safe disc is too much.  Hell, laserlock and cactus shield don't cause near the problems, and they will work just as well at stopping casual copying. In fact, if all you want to do is to stop casual copying, put a media check in there to see if it is launching from a CDR disk. That ain't nothing to put in, most devs could come up with it themselves. Serial numbers work there too.

Maybe you publishers are the ones getting bamboozeld here. Because each generation of Safedisc - I think we are up to 2.51 now - works with few drives then the one before. To me, that's intentional, Macrovision is trying to defeat the true warez artist. Your goals don't match at all, I think, and it's time to go to a more practical method of copy protection.

If, that is, you really mean the part about only stopping casual copying. Me, I don't believe it. I think you - the in general you - have bought into Macrovisions claims of stopping a lot more copying then in reality happens. I think they've got y'all by the balls, and you're liking the warm silky feeling. But your wallet is a bit lighter, and I can still rip your games.

I don't get it. I understand, you have to put in the effort, but there are less painless methods.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#34 by LPMiller
2002-05-07 04:27:46
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Hmm, Tonto talk too much to white man. Tonto sorry.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#35 by Warren Marshall
2002-05-07 04:31:22
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
I'll say 2 things about SafeDisc:

1)  It sucks (from an end user standpoint).

2)  If it didn't work, they wouldn't use it.

WoT?
#36 by Matthew Gallant
2002-05-07 04:40:26
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
Because publishers never do boneheaded shit.

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#37 by BobJustBob
2002-05-07 05:07:12
Is SafeDisc the reason MW just pauses all the time for no reason? Just suspecting that it is, I'm downloading the patch now.
#38 by LPMiller
2002-05-07 05:09:39
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
I'll say 2 things about SafeDisc:

1)  It sucks (from an end user standpoint).

2)  If it didn't work, they wouldn't use it.


Working, and being effective, are not the same thing. I'd like to see someone, anyone, prove to me that safedisc is actually preventing piracy. I'd like to see proof that it isn't anything other than a rip off for all involved.

CDR checks would work too - and wouldn't fuck up the users PC at the same time.

I believe I can fly......urk.
#39 by Bailey
2002-05-07 05:32:20
Bob

Yeah. It'll still do frequent exterior loading sequences, but the strange pauses when you're running around doing your own thing disappeared.

Um... Sorry about all that genocide.
#40 by jjohnsen
2002-05-07 05:45:21
http://www.johnsenclan.com
Working, and being effective, are not the same thing. I'd like to see someone, anyone, prove to me that safedisc is actually preventing piracy.


It isn't stopping piracy at all.  Games are still on the net before they reach store shelves.  It might be stopping casual piracy, but aren't users getting smarter all the time?  How long can something that is bypassed by a  200 kb download stop people from pirating?

2)  If it didn't work, they wouldn't use it.


I'm not saying you are wrong Warren, I don't have and data on the subject.  But the data that is out there, where does it come from?   Macrovision?  Who is telling all the publishers that safedisc is saving them thousands or millions?  Macrovision?

love is good, butter brings on the love...
#41 by crash
2002-05-07 06:22:44
it was the best of times, it was the worst of times. it was LP's post. (figured there'd be an epic in here sometime because now it's sort of a hardware issue.)

In fact, if all you want to do is to stop casual copying, put a media check in there to see if it is launching from a CDR disk. That ain't nothing to put in, most devs could come up with it themselves. Serial numbers work there too.

one problem. copyright law says i can make a single copy of whatever i buy for archival purposes. in fact, back in the day, it was strongly recommended to immediately make a copy of the original floppies, put them away for safekeeping, and use the copies for playing. if i want to make a copy of my brand-new game to play it--completely within my rights--and run it off a cdr so i don't damage the original because the media is required (insert flamey rant about TA here. again), and your code doesn't let me? oh, yeah, that'll fly. plus the whole concept has sort of been grandfathered in, from this chair... you can see shades of it in EULAs. and yes, i read them. "But SafeDisc2 prevents that right now!" uh, no, it doesn't. i'm hardly a w4r3z w1z4rd, but even i can write a SD2 "protected" game. yeah, i'm above the curve and whatnot, but not that far.

serial numbers, i could see that. and honestly i didn't totally mind those code wheels, except when the CGA graphics couldn't adequately display funky characters like the pool of radiance elvish bullshit. id/q3a's keygen is supposedly rock-solid, is it not? hell, license that technology too.

Maybe you publishers are the ones getting bamboozeld here. Because each generation of Safedisc - I think we are up to 2.51 now - works with few drives then the one before. To me, that's intentional, Macrovision is trying to defeat the true warez artist.

ironic, when you think about it, because the true warez artists have as much time, and as many drives, as they need to get the job done. they only need one to actually work, after all. only joe casual is stuck with one drive.

I don't get it. I understand, you have to put in the effort, but there are less painless methods.

agreed. is qualifying "less painful" to append "for the casual user" accurate?

what's truly ironic is the warez scene rarely waits for boxed anyway. i can't think of a game in recent memory that hasn't been available on IRC or the donkey or whatever before the game shipped. not a one. they're not payin 50 bucks, busting open the box, and slappin it in the drive, y'know.

Warren:

2)  If it didn't work, they wouldn't use it.

i can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. another statement that needs to be qualified. or changed completely. to something like this:

"If it cost more to have it than not, they wouldn't use it."

the key is quantifying costs. and i seriously, seriously doubt anyone at EA or Infogrames or Ubi or Eidos or MS is really charting how many customer complaints they get on copy protection issues. even if they did, tech support contacts are infinitesmal against the number of copies you ship, or whatever product you sell. and really, joe casual buys himself a game, the shit don't work well, he takes it back. he can't take it back, he'll chalk it up to a lesson learned, and maybe complain, but that's about it. it's only a game, after all. not like a car or something.

so nobody'll tell 'em better, they don't really care as long as the money keeps coming in, and it's a cheap fast way to "ensure" the title doesn't get casually copied. or, really, played, but shit, as long as they grabbed the SKU, it's all good since they can't take it back. ka-ching, motherfuckers!

just... weary.
#42 by crash
2002-05-07 06:25:00
and funny, i left out Activision. hm. that's probably because they're in LA, and i used to work more closely with bay area companies and their PR machines. nothing personal Caryn. :)

just... weary.
#43 by George Broussard
2002-05-07 06:28:27
georgeb@3drealms.com
Safedisc has a 1-2% failure rate on any given product.  It sucks.  It isn't going away any time soon, as it's the only viable protection against casual piracy.

You people that say Safedisc doesn't stop piracy are wrong.  It won't stop you or any other PC reader.  And it won't stop any really advanced pc user.  But please remember that you are in the 5% minority.  Most pc users don't know about Safedisc, or where or how to get cracks for it, or anything else.

Safedisc exists to stop Mr. Sixpack from burning a copy of the game for his drinking buddy.  As long as it stops the casual "insert disk, hit copy" piracy, then it's doing it's job.  It's truly a shame that it has to inconvenience 1-2% of the end users thouogh.  And we all wish there was a better system.

For those of you arguing about data, it comes from experience and publishers looking at game sales with and without forms of protection.  The simple fact is that once you make it inconvenient enough for someone to copy a game, the likelyhood increases that they will buy it.
#44 by Post-It
2002-05-07 06:44:02
keithlee@speakeasy.net
Ask and ye shall recieve. Here is a rumor posted to the Dumpshock Forums that a Shadowrun role-playing game is in development from Day 1 Studios (MechAssault) for the Microsoft Xbox console system.

I have been told by a very reliable source that Shadowrun is indeed in early development for Xbox.

As you may or may not know, Jordan Weismann (creator of Shadowrun) works at Microsoft as the head of the Xbox games division, and is is currently producing Crimson Skies. Battletech ("MechAssault") is also in production at Day 1 Studios. But at the same time, they are working on Shadowrun with their huge internal studio.


 Maybe we'll see at E3?

"It's a bird!  It's a plane!  Oh shit, It knows we're home!"
-Chris Johnson
#45 by George Broussard
2002-05-07 06:46:15
georgeb@3drealms.com
LPMiller,

I'd like to see someone, anyone, prove to me that safedisc is actually preventing piracy.


Well, there's essentially no piracy on things like the XBox or PS2 or GameCube, and their games sell an order of magnitude better than most PC games.  The thought of pirating a console game doesn't even cross people's minds.  You just go buy it.  You have to.
#46 by Bailey
2002-05-07 06:48:25
I miss the code wheels.

Um... Sorry about all that genocide.
#47 by Bailey
2002-05-07 06:49:45
George

Actually, PS2 games have been warezable for quite some time, and if you believe the recent hoopla, the kiddiez figured out an Xbox warezing tactic sometime recently.

Um... Sorry about all that genocide.
#48 by Warren Marshall
2002-05-07 07:08:21
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Warezable, yes, but the scene is nowhere near the size of the PC scene.  And WELL out of the hands of the average user.  It takes more than a CD burner to copy console games.

WoT?
#49 by Sgt Hulka
2002-05-07 07:13:19
EP 2 SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!

















































Yoda is no longer a Muppet.  He's a 3D Model now.  His rendered fight scene is pretty cool.


and, this is not 100% confirmed yet, but I've heard through the grapevine, from a trusted source at Fox that at the end of Ep. 2, we discover that Queen Amidala has a penis.  Note, that's Fox TV, home to shows like "When Babies Attack" and crap like that, so take it with a grain of salt.

....Imagine how thick Japanese people's photo albums must be.
#50 by George Broussard
2002-05-07 07:18:36
georgeb@3drealms.com
Dammit Hulka...get that shit outta here.  I haven't even seen a preview trailer yet.

/goodbye! :)
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