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T O P I C
Trojans V Spartans, Part DCLXVI
April 28th 2002, 18:06 CEST by m0nty

Most Web users would be familiar with the old browser wars, which were at their most virulent when Microsoft Internet Explorer and Netscape Communicator would continuously fight over your registry entry as to which was the default browser. The "adware" industry now has its own bloody battlefield, with AdAware and the Slashdot-inspired forces of good against the adware and spyware programs like Gator, CyDoor, Alexa and Comet Cursor, usually installed as "trojan horses" with free software sharing apps. The match-up was never going to be fought using Marquis of Queensberry rules, but the latest tactics have become downright dirty - striking at the installation of the programs themselves.

LavaSoft's AdAware app has built a reputation for being a reliable anti-adware program, but it has suffered its own attack from a Slovenian-made applet called RadLight, an otherwise unremarkable DivX multimedia player which in its 3.03 version uninstalls AdAware, and includes a full disclosure of this within its 1100-word EULA.

When installing RadLight, a document is displayed explaining that the program comes bundled with two "small optional programs from other companies." The programs include WhenU.com's SaveNow browser shopping "companion" and New.net's Web navigation plug-in.
According to the document, "You are not allowed to use any third party program (e.g., Ad-aware) to uninstall application bundled with RadLight. Such programs will be removed."

The anti-adware movement is responding with its own uninstall tactic, with a US college student calling himself Dr Damn releasing versions of the file sharing programs which usually carry the adware programs free of third-party software. Although he is apparently not the first to do this, the news of his work did get slashdotted, with some users even expressing distrust at Dr Damn's motivations.

I'd be very suspicious of 'cleaned' applications floating about on p2p networks.
Whilst it's likely the author had your best interests at heart there's some chance he didn't.
It wouldn't be too hard to build a trojan into one of these, and if it were done well you could have your trojan version of kazaa send requests onto the network that immediately identify to anyone watching that it's an infected copy.

Personally, this is yet another good reason for me not to use P2P networks. What about you, especially all you donkey riders? Are you prepared to have adware drones and anti-adware hacktivists fight over your registry? Are you going to read EULAs of freeware progs more closely in future? Is there anything more than comedic value in these shenanigans, or is there some important ideal actually being contested?
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Home » Topic: Trojans V Spartans, Part DCLXVI

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#1 by HoseWater
2002-04-28 18:08:33
barneyque@hotmail.com
First?

© 1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
#2 by HoseWater
2002-04-28 18:09:06
barneyque@hotmail.com
w00T!  Chalk one up to living the shut-in life.


Now to go read the article, and hopfully have something worthy to contribute to make up for this.

© 1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
#3 by HoseWater
2002-04-28 18:14:44
barneyque@hotmail.com
OK, here's the deal, I don't get affected by these silly tag along products often, maybe twice in my life.  I run adaware once every few months just to check up on the state of things, usually, just cleans out cookies.

I don't think more than one program should be covered by a single EULA.

I don't think more than one product should be installed when running setup once. Want me to install something else, make me run setup again.

I don't think it is playing fair to hide details that you know ahead of time, will not be popular with the users.

However...

I think it is everyones responsibility in the end to read before you click, otherwise, you are left with no recourse. If you agree to something, then you agree to something.  End of story.

You cant tell a judge, "Well, the agreement was really long, so I decided not to read it before I agreed."

© 1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
#4 by EvilAsh
2002-04-28 18:20:36
evilash@eviladam.com www.eviladam.com
well.... I installed Filefront.. and There was no mention of having adware.. After running Norton Firewall every time I booted my pc up this Rednsclient was trying to access the internet from pc..  I searched ad-remove and found it and uninstalled it..  I went back to Filefront to download a patch.. and Voila got the message that I had to install the P2p client again.  Then it hit me.  I allowed it to install and and sure enough after a reboot Norton saw the same app trying to access the internet.

Fuck Adware and they horse they road on.

On 2002-04-18 04:47:00  Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me."
#5 by BobJustBob
2002-04-28 18:27:21
EULAs suck. Microsoft does not own all my Word documents, dammit!
#6 by Durzel
2002-04-28 18:29:10
durzel@barrysworld.com http://www.superficial.net
I personally use KazaaLite, and for me it has been a godsend.

I usually consider myself to be pretty computer literate but it wasn't until recently I was made aware of the BDE (Brilliant Digital) player being installed on my system, sat there waiting for its call to misappropriate my hardware resources.  Had there not been the amount of negative publicity on ZDNet about this Kazaa-bundled spyware I would most likely not have noticed it for weeks, by which time it could've activated and done Lord only knows what.  Fortunately through a bit of investigation and other peoples hard work I quickly discovered how to manually remove this foul spyware (which is now handled by newer versions of AdAware).

What leaves a nasty taste in my mouth is not the fact that it was installed on my system, but that it was done so covertly.  I recall when installing Kazaa that I was given 3 or 4 (I dont recall exactly how many and I would rather not risk starting to install it for fear of what spyware it might reinstall) checkboxes for "third party programs I might like to install".  Naturally I chose not to install any of them, because I don't really have any interest in casinos and the like.  Imagine my disdain therefore when I find that Cydoor and BDE are interwoven into Kazaa in such a way as to render Kazaa (the actual program I wanted to use) inoperable if you choose to opt out of having the spyware installed on your system.

I can understand software houses using more direct tactics in these times of advertising banner revenue being shot to hell, but installing software on my computer without my knowledge or consent (it wasn't in the EULA as far as I remember) that will - by the company's own admission - eventually activate and use my CPU/bandwidth as it sees fit, without my permission, is one step too far.  In fact, it's a great many more steps than one.

So - until the likes of Sharman Networks and the third parties they do business with decide to be more open and honest about their activities, they can count on me being equally as dishonest by using unauthorised software like KazaaLite.
#7 by Bailey
2002-04-28 18:35:30
The scam networks need to die messy deaths, as far as I'm concerned. Someone needs to point some DoS kiddiez towards Brilliant and let them go to town.

Drinking is fun! It makes me feel horrible and sexy!
#8 by Ashiran
2002-04-28 18:57:38
I hate spyware and everything coming with it with a passion. I never EVER press yes to install. Yet Gator still managed to weasel it's way into my system.

In short my opinion about adware and spyware;
I DON'T CARE FOR YOUR CRAPPY OFFERS SO FUCK OFF!

You see it's not just the fact that I get unwanted spam. It's the fact that I get unwanted spam I will never ever need. "Lose weight fast" is a classic one. Unfortunately I'm 2.03 meters tall while weighing 84 kilos. So "Losing weight fast" is more of a death trap then a blessing.
And don't get me going on all those others "offers you can't refuse".

I hope Lavasoft makes a program that not only deletes all of those crap but DoS attacks the companies who created that fuckware in the first place.

KILL, MAIM, CRUSH!

Civilized barcode, quick id.
#9 by OmegaFoRCe
2002-04-28 19:17:56
#2 by HoseWater
w00T!  Chalk one up to living the shut-in life.

Guess you haven't seen any alligators then, have you? :P

... These aren't the craps you're looking for ...
#10 by "sepultufart"
2002-04-28 19:19:40
sepultufart@yahoo.com http://www.mp3.com/sepultufart
If you agree to something, then you agree to something.  End of story.

You cant tell a judge, "Well, the agreement was really long, so I decided not to read it before I agreed."


That reminds me of some Wav. music app. called the "little drummer boy". Before being able to run that app, you needed to find & install some useless software. Then, during the installation process of this thing, whatever it did, you had to go through a 50 questions quiz about the licence agreement.

You're right about reading it! But I'm not sure that you would want to sit for half an hour answering questions about the licence agreement off some app, especially if you fished it out of some warez site...
#11 by VeeSPIKE
2002-04-28 19:31:00
I use adaware about once a week, and would consider its removal by another app to be an assault on my computer. Would that I had the knowledge and the time to fire back.

I think people will start actually reading the EULA's. Or at least search them for spyware inclusions. Particularly for small downloaded apps. I have been doing it lately, and I do not see myself as overly paranoid.

The thing that really bothers me is: Now that sombody has decided to use the ability to uninstall other applications during an install routine, who is next?. Will you install the newest version of the RealPlayer virus and find that Media Player does not work anymore? IE breaks Netscape? (oh wait, that already happened, they just did not tell they were doing it at the time.)

re: This article

So Altnet, as conceived now, is primarily a way to distribute secure content.

One hundred percent secure. Users cannot propagate their own content through Altnet



Quite honestly, this is bull. The only thing this makes me 100% sure of is that there is group of clowns out there right now ripping through the code for this thing, trying to find a way to appropriate the p2p clients without Altnet's knowledge. And I am almost as positive that they will find a way to do it.
#12 by "Battle-Dwarf"
2002-04-28 19:43:06
Quote:
[You cant tell a judge, "Well, the agreement was really long, so I decided not to read it before I agreed."]


If you have enough CAPITAL, you can.

What's interesting about the judicial system here in NY (or the entire North American sector)  is that without proper representation, the court systems can render your request/ pleas virtually useless!

No capital, and you may have to rely on legal-aid appointed liars---er, I mean, lawyers!  Who are people who _really_ don't_ give_ a _damn_about_your_case.

You need capital to refute such a case.







the male battle-D
#13 by Caryn
2002-04-28 20:02:53
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
Durzel:

How can I find out if BDE is installed on my system? I installed Kazaa a while back and would like to make sure it's not on my system. I'm assuming it's not something that makes itself obvious on my system...?

Dear Briefcase, how are you? I hope you are good. Has anyone captured you yet? Please write back! XOXO
#14 by EvilAsh
2002-04-28 20:17:02
evilash@eviladam.com www.eviladam.com
No its not obvious. I installed Adaware today and watched about 41 files  get removed
half of which was Bde.

On 2002-04-18 04:47:00  Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me."
#15 by OmegaFoRCe
2002-04-28 20:25:05
Is BDE listed in the Add/Remove Programs form in the Control Panel? I think I'll check out AdAware when I get home from work -- sounds like a useful app.

... These aren't the craps you're looking for ...
#16 by WeeMadArthur
2002-04-28 20:52:48
smarteyman@interia.pl
OmegaFoRCe:
There was something like b3d projector in Add/Remove Programs on my system. That thing is definitely BDE, but there might be something else apart from b3d.

Kittens fucking burn.
#17 by Post-It
2002-04-28 21:05:15
keithlee@speakeasy.net
Caryn, jsut uninstall Kazaa and put in KazaaLite. Exact same thing, just no spyware.

Bad game designs are the new crates
-Greg
#18 by jjohnsen
2002-04-28 21:15:10
http://www.johnsenclan.com
I picked up the b3d projector somewhere else because I've never used kazaa, I wonder which program gave it too me?

EvilAsh's pet crocodile
#19 by EvilAsh
2002-04-28 21:58:33
evilash@eviladam.com www.eviladam.com
JJ that story was spot lighted on Ripley's Believe it or Not. The american Croc is tiny in comparison to most gators.

On 2002-04-18 04:47:00  Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me."
#20 by None-1a
2002-04-28 22:21:31
Uninstalling ad-aware isn't the scary part of Radlight. After this was posted in the IRC channel I ran down the radlight site, and it's forums. The creator was defending his inclusion of adware. Just before the version that uninstalls ad-aware was released he call both ad-aware and ZoneAlarm bullshit software, for the simple fact they can uninstall or block spyware (most firewalls can do that). Kind of makes you wonder if he plans on uninstalling firewall software at some point.

Also interesting that with some versions of radlight you can opt-out others you can't (the included spyware also changes every few releases). Not that opting  out helps at all since it's programed to only run if the spyware is installed anyway.
#21 by jafd
2002-04-28 22:24:33
I could not be paid to use KaZaA these days. Even since before the Morpheus split, the whole thing was shaky; and now, while I'm terribly fond of what I hear about the Lite version, I just can't see it as being anything I want to get anywhere close to. Is there really a bunch of whoopin' content to be found there that isn't also found on WinMX or the Donkey?

FastTrack == "Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!"


Also, just the other day, I found a pop-up advert that installed a toolbar in IE. How this happened, I have zero idea; I remember adding something called "Desktop Search" to my pop-kill list, then a few minutes later I opened a new window, and there it is, inviting me to click and get "Desktop Cash." I'd sooner click a button that said "Desktop Herpes."

How many firewalls is an appropriate number to run, these days? two? three? ALL? It isn't just the use of p2p networks that makes one susceptible, although that surely helps.

It's going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better. Don't forget your jimmy-hats, folks.

This is no time for a slow PC!
#22 by Durzel
2002-04-28 22:25:26
durzel@barrysworld.com http://www.superficial.net
If there is an option to remove BDE from Add/Remove programs, you can guarantee it wont remove everything.

The latest version of AdAware will remove BDE/b3d entirely from your system.  Best bet is to uninstall Kazaa (and BDE if it appears in Add/Remove programs), run AdAware to clean your system of everything Kazaa/BDE wont remove in the uninstall, then install KazaaLite.

One point I should add is that KazaaLite installs a dummy DLL that mimics Cydoor (but without the spyware functionality) - without this Kazaa(Lite) doesn't function at all.  You should make sure you ignore all AdAware detections of Cydoor related DLLs AFTER you have installed KazaaLite.  This is why it is important to run AdAware before installing KazaaLite, to purge your system of everything spyware related.

Hope this helps.
#23 by Bailey
2002-04-28 22:28:55
Uh... what if there's other, non-Kazaa-Lite related Cydoor .dlls that show up?

Drinking is fun! It makes me feel horrible and sexy!
#24 by OmegaFoRCe
2002-04-28 22:33:15
That's why he said to install AdAware and have it remove all spy programs PRIOR to installing Kazaa lite. That way if it detects anything following Kazaa lite's install it is more than likely the cydoor dummy dll.

Of course I could be mis-reading your statement -- you may be leaning in the direction of "After I install Kazaa-lite, does that mean my Cydoor Removal functionality of AdAware is effectively neutered?". If that is your question, I'd believe the answer is probably "yes". Only Space Alligators know for sure.

... These aren't the craps you're looking for ...
#25 by Durzel
2002-04-28 22:42:36
durzel@barrysworld.com http://www.superficial.net
From Kazaa's EULA:

(b) You hereby grant BDE the right to access and use the unused computing power and storage space on your computer/s and/or internet access or bandwidth for the aggregation of content and use in distributed computing.
I find this highly questionable, even if it is in a EULA.

Most of the time my computer is sat idle, except for when Im playing games - does this mean BDE has full entitlement to use the 40 odd Gb left on my HD, and 99%+ of my CPU when I'm sat on IRC?  Presumably so, since I will have given them the right to.

EULAs are all well and good, but is it unreasonable for the general public to assume that completely unrelated and invasive third-party programs that have absolutely no relevance to the product you are installing will be installed?  I'm struggling to think of a decent analogy here - but to me it seems roughly akin to buying a rowing machine and finding a paragraph hidden away in the invoice that says by installing the equipment in your home gym you are giving anyone carte blanché to use your entire gym whenever they see fit.

Ok, so its a very poor analogy.
#26 by Durzel
2002-04-28 22:46:35
durzel@barrysworld.com http://www.superficial.net
Uh... what if there's other, non-Kazaa-Lite related Cydoor .dlls that show up?

I have no idea whether or not the real Cydoor will install itself over dummy DLLs (with the same name) that KazaaLite will install, so in that respect I can't say for certain whether or not you are forever protected from the evils of Cydoor.  What I meant originally (as OmegaFoRCe reiterated) is that after having uninstalled Kazaa/BDE, run AdAware and purged your system of everything unsavoury you would be in a position to install KazaaLite safe in the knowledge that the Cydoor files AdAware will report after it is installed are fake.

Unfortunately AdAware works on the names of files/folders rather than any intelligent heuristics - which is a shame really.
#27 by jafd
2002-04-28 22:47:35
EULAs are all well and good

*blinks slowly*

Give 'em an inch, they'll take a mile.

This is no time for a slow PC!
#28 by Durzel
2002-04-28 22:50:50
durzel@barrysworld.com http://www.superficial.net
(b) You hereby grant BDE the right to access and use the unused computing power and storage space on your computer/s and/or internet access or bandwidth for the aggregation of content and use in distributed computing.

Thinking about this in more detail, it seems very sketchy...

The term "computer(s)" is particularly interesting.  Since I don't know the ins and outs of how BDE works I can only presume that once you've installed it on one machine, it must either propogate itself to other machines on any network it can see (much like a virus) or will just use any and every storage area - including network shares - for its wonderful distributed content providing system.

So - if I installed Kazaa at work, surely wouldn't I be granting BDE the rights to use the "unused computing power and storage space" on the entire work network?
#29 by jjohnsen
2002-04-28 22:55:34
http://www.johnsenclan.com
I just can't see it as being anything I want to get anywhere close to. Is there really a bunch of whoopin' content to be found there that isn't also found on WinMX or the Donkey?


I use it (well, morpheus now) because I have trouble finding anything good on the donkey unless I get a link from sharereactor or another site.  The search itself doesn't seem to do much for me.

EvilAsh's pet crocodile
#30 by Durzel
2002-04-28 22:56:08
durzel@barrysworld.com http://www.superficial.net
jafd #27
No you misunderstand me - I'm not questioning EULAs persay, I'm simply questioning whether or not most people would expect these sorts of third party programs to be installed with a simple music sharing system.

If a EULA for a piece of software stated somewhere in the mire of disclaimers and statutory rights declarations that by installing the software you were giving the publishers the non-exclusive rights to drive your car about any time they liked - would anyone actually expect that as a clause for a piece of software?  And more importantly, would it stand up in court?

(I'm not making assumptions here, I'm genuinely curious)
#31 by The_Joker
2002-04-28 23:17:12
http://www.jackinworld.com
FUCK YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!!! YOU WILL ALL DIE!!!!!!

ah yes, that was good.

My impression of a german is getting better and better.

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
#32 by The_Joker
2002-04-28 23:18:32
http://www.jackinworld.com
Thinking...

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
#33 by The_Joker
2002-04-28 23:19:00
http://www.jackinworld.com
Thinking...

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
#34 by OmegaFoRCe
2002-04-28 23:30:21
Wow! Joker has begun the journey into thought! Congrats!

... These aren't the craps you're looking for ...
#35 by None-1a
2002-04-28 23:53:29
If a EULA for a piece of software stated somewhere in the mire of disclaimers and statutory rights declarations that by installing the software you were giving the publishers the non-exclusive rights to drive your car about any time they liked - would anyone actually expect that as a clause for a piece of software?  And more importantly, would it stand up in court?


No, and No. Both for the same reason that clause has nothing to do with using the software. Adware is different tho since those third party apps are there to provide money to the creator (and it's resonable that a creator should be paied for his work).

However most of these things end up using a much longer EULA then needed, then hidding what's installed at the very end. Needlessly making the contract longer in a blatent attempt to get people to stop reading before they get to the section they may not agree with.
#36 by EvilAsh
2002-04-28 23:54:40
evilash@eviladam.com www.eviladam.com
Does joker ever talk about the topic on hand? Or is that beyond his grasp?

On 2002-04-18 04:47:00  Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me."
#37 by mgns
2002-04-28 23:57:04
I could mention something about bringing aligators into debates.

But, I won't...

professional philosophical level design monkey.
#38 by EvilAsh
2002-04-28 23:59:04
evilash@eviladam.com www.eviladam.com
If you actually knew the whole story you wouldn't be making comments sunshine. And that ends up making your point moot.

On 2002-04-18 04:47:00  Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me."
#39 by HoseWater
2002-04-29 00:01:25
barneyque@hotmail.com
The bottom line, is that if it is in the EULA, it is legit.

Basically, you are getting free software, the reason you are able to get free software, is because it is financed on the back end with things like advertising.  If you agree to let them install this stuff, then that is that, you agreed.

The alternative, and this is just like the warez argument, is that you answer NO to the eula, and the setup program exits, and all is well.

I don't fault the creators of this stuff for installing the crap, provided it is in the EULA.

Installing a program that is supposed to be paid for by allowing them to do other things with your computer that you agreed to, then breaking it with something like ad-aware, is not cool.

I do fault them for being sneaky about it.

© 1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
#40 by Neale
2002-04-29 00:01:45
neale@pimurho.co.uk www.pimurho.co.uk
but not half as moot as your original "point" about alligators. It was either so dumb as to be incomprehensible, or so massively intelligent that it's beyond the abilities of us mere mortals to comprehend it.

I know where my money's going, "sunshine"

Eradicators! - www.eradicators.co.uk
#41 by Neale
2002-04-29 00:02:25
neale@pimurho.co.uk www.pimurho.co.uk
Damn you for breaking the continuity HoseWater. Damn you to heck!

Eradicators! - www.eradicators.co.uk
#42 by EvilAsh
2002-04-29 00:05:14
evilash@eviladam.com www.eviladam.com
Neale ,.. I was involved in the topic of xbox.. before I got dragged out of it because someone can't keep their mouth shut and actually do as they say. But because I respond to him , I get blamed for it. 2 others did notice this. And I will repeat till the oceans dry out.. it takes 2 to tango.

On 2002-04-18 04:47:00  Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me."
#43 by "Anonymous"
2002-04-29 00:05:51
Leslie Nasser

Thank you for putting up that SoF2 server last night, I had a great time.

(grumbling) would have had more kills if it wasn't for everyone using FORCE PUSH to knock me off the stupid ledge.

/puts on shiny cowboy hat and leaves to go alligator hunting.
#44 by HoseWater
2002-04-29 00:05:56
barneyque@hotmail.com
Sorry man.  It wont be much of a discussion if someone does not pick up the baton for the other side.  :)

© 1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
#45 by LPMiller
2002-04-29 00:06:08
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
But you really need 3 or 4 for a really rousing game of Twister.

Will warez for food.
#46 by Neale
2002-04-29 00:06:16
neale@pimurho.co.uk www.pimurho.co.uk
Then for pity's sake - sit this dance out. Please

Eradicators! - www.eradicators.co.uk
#47 by HiredGoons
2002-04-29 00:06:34
Damn, #43 was me.
#48 by Neale
2002-04-29 00:08:08
neale@pimurho.co.uk www.pimurho.co.uk
GOD DAMN IT!

Will you all stop posting before I do?!

Gargh!

Eradicators! - www.eradicators.co.uk
#49 by Warren Marshall
2002-04-29 00:22:24
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
EvilAss
Neale ,.. I was involved in the topic of xbox.. before I got dragged out of it because someone can't keep their mouth shut and actually do as they say. But because I respond to him , I get blamed for it. 2 others did notice this. And I will repeat till the oceans dry out.. it takes 2 to tango.

I posted a link.  I said nothing about the topic at hand, or the subthread that was going on and I certainly didn't say anything directly to you.  I posted a link that you, for whatever reason, decided was an attack against your person and you started in on me.

So in short, bugger off.

WoT?
#50 by Martin
2002-04-29 00:24:08
http://www.mocol.nu
In response to the original question posed at the end of the topic: I don't care. I run Ad Aware and Norton Firewall so I catch most of the junk. And I uninstalled Radlight and got BSplayer instead when I heard how Radlight worked.

EOD.

"that fatty crocodile! what a glutton!"
- Kayin
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