PlanetCrap 6.0!
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
T O P I C
Forget the Whales, Save the Crappy Games!
April 27th 2002, 17:33 CEST by Chris Johnson

In a previous thread, "Kinetech" blathered:

It is about the quality of the game, George. but sometimes, good marketing and PR can save a crappy game.


WT-Everloving-F??!??!??

Why the hell should a crappy game be saved?  In this day and age, after all the crappy games that have been saved and hyped and sold to the gaming masses, while other better games and game concepts (Amen?  TORN?  anyone?) get dropped, wouldn't the marketing and publishing parts of our great games industry actually be better served by devloping and supporting the actual ideas and games that are worth a damn and show promise, rather than the crappy games just to please an investor or two in the short term?

And if the games that are developed and supported are good, thus prompting more sales and stronger returns to the publishers, investors and developers, thus creating better financial strength for the companies, and better brand loyalty among the consumer public, wouldn't this be a much better plan for the publishers and such in both the short and long term?

Are publishers really THAT short-sighted?

(And why did you read down this far?... the thread's just gonna get hijacked anyways...)
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Forget the Whales, Save the Crappy Games!

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
#1 by EvilAsh
2002-04-27 17:51:04
evilash@eviladam.com www.eviladam.com
Why was this voted in? this Topic sucks.

On 2002-04-18 04:47:00  Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me."
#2 by OmegaFoRCe
2002-04-27 18:02:53
Publishers are dumb, stupid, ya ya ya. Been there done that. Topic is not just done, or well done, but damn near cremated ;) Next please <G>

... These aren't the craps you're looking for ...
#3 by m0nty
2002-04-27 18:32:36
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
Drive this thread to Cuba.
#4 by Ashiran
2002-04-27 18:47:59
Is the voting system broken or something? Or are n00bs abusing it?

Civilized barcode, quick id.
#5 by Warren Marshall
2002-04-27 19:00:16
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Why the hell should a crappy game be saved?

Because significant money and man power has been put into the product, and it would be nice to recoup some of that cost?

I'm just guessing here, but ...

WoT?
#6 by Gabe
2002-04-27 19:25:07
http://www.dartpublishing.com
So they should market it and trick people into buying it?

HONK!
#7 by Warren Marshall
2002-04-27 19:31:04
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
It's business.  If you put a lot of money into something, you need to a see a return.  This is the same in any industry.

I'm not speaking from the position of morals here ... it's not "right".  But it's reality.

WoT?
#8 by HoseWater
2002-04-27 19:32:45
barneyque@hotmail.com
And now we know why marketing and PR and all of that has a bad reputation in some corners of the world.

Often, if the people who use such services are not careful, they can be tarred with the same brush. Hint hint.

Trying to make money off a bad game, will not earn you many friends. Someone who gets suckered on a bad game, just might remember who did it, the internet has a pretty long memory in certain instances. This is just like the 'A late game will be forgiven, but the bad game, will smear your reputation forever' argument.

You wont hear many gamers say "Wow, I really got suckered on this one, but it's OK, they were just trying to get back some spent money, and felt I wanted to contribute."

1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
#9 by HoseWater
2002-04-27 19:43:40
barneyque@hotmail.com
I sure wish I could run my posts through the 'Dude!, you are stating the obvious' filter before I hit post.

1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
#10 by LesJarvis
2002-04-27 19:47:41
I donno, I don't think the memory of the internet plays in when it comes to people being burned after buying a bad game.  I can say, from personal experience, that just because a company releases a bad game (or a game I didn't like) doesn't mean I won't buy a good game from them in the future.

Take the original Unreal.  I bought it, was sorely disappointed with it, and swore off all future Epic games.  UT comes out, gets good reviews, good word of mouth, and there I am in EB all of a sudden surrenduring my $50.

Monolith is another good example.  Bought Blood 2, was pissed as all hell, but I bought, loved, and played the hell out of NOLF after it started generating positive buzz.
#11 by Bailey
2002-04-27 19:47:44
Y'know Johnson, you can just post a reply in the thread you're referring to rather than starting a new topic about your reply.

Just an idea.

Drinking is fun! It makes me feel horrible and sexy!
#12 by Scott Miller
2002-04-27 19:50:35
scottmi11er@hotmail.com
Marketing saves bad movies all the time.  Like Tomb Raider, which was launched with a giant marketing blitz, and ended up doing okay, box office-wise.

"A game should not be judged only on its appearance. It should be played before drawing conclusions." - Miyamoto
#13 by HoseWater
2002-04-27 19:54:12
barneyque@hotmail.com
Well LesJarvis, it seems to me, and by all means, correct me if I am wrong, but you just remembered two games that had issues, and told everyone else here, now we all remember that unreal and blood 2 had issues.  Not to mention the fact that you stood on the sidelines waiting for good reviews instead of in the store waiting for it to come out of the shipping container.

1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
#14 by HoseWater
2002-04-27 19:55:46
barneyque@hotmail.com
Does tomb raider actually suck, or is it just not a 'hard core' or shall we say, a gamers game?

1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
#15 by Hugin
2002-04-27 20:08:21
lmccain@nber.org
The original Tomb Raider game was cool.  Subsequent sequels had less and less gameplay/level design/storyline improvement, running on increasingly dated/ugly engines, and "Lara Croft and her boobs" hype became an increasingly large percentage of the overall experience.  It became a repetitive parody of itself.

The movie was basically good natured and inoffensive.  It could have been a disposeable popcorn actioner if not for an incredibly shoddy storyline, (I mean significantly sub-Mummy quality for goodness sake), and relatively poorly edited action sequences. It did reasonably well due to the Lara Croft name, lots and lots of marketing money, and the star power of Angelina Jolie, which was brilliant casting that saved thier asses.
#16 by LesJarvis
2002-04-27 20:11:50
I'm not disputing the notion that the internet has a long memory, it certainly does.  All I'm saying is that if a company who has previously released buggy/poor/whatever games releases a really good game, that memory doesn't really amount to much, as people will buy the game anyway.

As for not being first in line to buy New Great Games, well, I rarely am.  I bought the original Unreal based on some very positive reviews.  In general I wait until I hear from a few unrelated sources on the finished product before I make a purchase.  In the case of Blood 2, well, I have no excuse...
#17 by Bailey
2002-04-27 20:36:24
Eh... boob hype was in from day one. The original wasn't a bad game by any means... but I would say the style was new enough that the game could get away with being rather bland in regards to actual play.

Drinking is fun! It makes me feel horrible and sexy!
#18 by "Chris Johnson"
2002-04-27 20:59:57
Y'know Johnson, you can just post a reply in the thread you're referring to rather than starting a new topic about your reply.


Yeah but what's the fun in that?

Plus this is tackling a very different subject as the main thrust of the topic, not just as a sub-argument as it would have been before.

Plus I like pissing you off, it's fun, it's easy, and it's universal. :P
#19 by jafd
2002-04-27 21:10:08
What I found the most interesting about all this is the casual way that Anonetech fellow just tossed off that line. I mean, I read it, I read it again, here we are talking about it... and I still can't believe it.

"Yeah, this is crap; but we'll just offer it to people who don't know any better; as long as we make money, we can sleep at night."

The mind boggles.

This is no time for a slow PC!
#20 by HoseWater
2002-04-27 21:12:49
barneyque@hotmail.com
I can only imagine its easier to sleep when your not hungry.  

Don't forget the children.

Nice token use of the semi colon there.

1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
#21 by Bailey
2002-04-27 21:28:04
Heh. People hitting me in the head with a beer bottle piss me off. Kids screaming in the street don't even register.

Drinking is fun! It makes me feel horrible and sexy!
#22 by Warren Marshall
2002-04-27 21:29:29
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
You people are either extremely naive or just playing that you're upset.

WoT?
#23 by "hoodoo"
2002-04-27 21:37:03
These topics are getting really stoopid.
#24 by HoseWater
2002-04-27 21:37:45
barneyque@hotmail.com
So we are either naive, and can't believe that a publisher would ship shit just to get money, or we are pretending to be upset?

What happened to C) we know that publishers ship shit, and it genuinely does not make us happy?


If you think we should just acknowledge that publishers ship shit, and expect us to be happy about it, then your balls just got too big for me buddy.  That is quite an admission on your part.

1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
#25 by "Chella"
2002-04-27 21:38:46
You people are either extremely naive or just playing that you're upset.


Fuck you Warren!  You whiny crybaby!  Fuck you and every thing you stand for!  I'm so sick of you whiny developers and game industry insiders whining when I know everything!  Fuck you!  Fuck all of you!  I'm dying.  Fuck off!  Fuck fuckity fuck fuck fuck.  Ooh, I think I blew an ovary on that last one.  Fuck.  Oh and Apache's dumb too.  Fuck him as well.  Did I mention I'm dying?  Fuck.
#26 by m0nty
2002-04-27 21:40:36
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
I miss the IP number listed beside the pseudonyms of anon trolls in PC 5.
#27 by Whisp
2002-04-27 21:45:19
Me too, I tried to get morn to put it back in.  I'm not sure why he wouldn't.
#28 by jafd
2002-04-27 21:45:47
Nice token use of the semi colon there.

I was paraphrasing a publisher; of course they didn't have time to QA!

Speaking of which... beware the colon.

This is no time for a slow PC!
#29 by Hugin
2002-04-27 21:46:30
lmccain@nber.org
Bailey,I mean that the boob hype took a greater and greater percentage of the "experience", I know it was there in the beginning.
#30 by Warren Marshall
2002-04-27 21:49:58
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
HoseWater

It's the "OMG I can't believe this happens!" vibe I'm getting, that's all.  If you didn't already know this stuff went on ... well, what can I say ...

Here's another shocker for those people : this happens in -every industry-!

*shock*

*gasp*

WoT?
#31 by "hoodoo"
2002-04-27 21:50:42
Why can't our topics be as brilliant as this?

"Perhaps the biggest difference between virtual warfare and real warfare is that on the computer screen you are insulated from direct confrontation with the most grotesque features of human-to-human violence. With computer war games, you are not exposed to the pungent stench of death and the tactile feel of gore that you are in real life. No matter how detailed the depiction of carnage on the screen, it is just not the same. A good litmus test here is that many are repulsed to the point of vomiting when confronted with the grisly facets of destruction in a combat zone, but how many of us have felt truly nauseous from anything we have ever seen on our computer screens?"

http://www.avault.com/articles/getarticle.asp?name=warhor

Awesome insight, isn't it? Real war is much nastier than anything we'll ever play on our computers. It never occurred to me, but by jove, he's right!
#32 by HoseWater
2002-04-27 21:53:34
barneyque@hotmail.com
That is cool, but the way you are phrasing things, in at least two posts, you are comming dangerously close to sounding like you accept, and approve of the practice.

1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
#33 by HoseWater
2002-04-27 21:57:24
barneyque@hotmail.com
What do you mean, "our topics", you need to register before you can take ownership in our topics.

And when you do, you can pen up anything you think we are missing as a topic here and submit it into the queue for consideration. Given our history, it will take about two days, and we will be discussing it.

1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
#34 by jafd
2002-04-27 22:21:44
It's the "OMG I can't believe this happens!" vibe I'm getting, that's all.

It's not that I can't believe shit is covered with lard and sold as wedding cake; oh, I believe that very well.

What sticks in my craw is the attitude that this is okay to do. Yes, I'm aware that this attitude obviously exists, or it wouldn't be done. Maybe it's surprise that people think it's okay to think that it's okay to have that attitude? Or something.

this happens in -every industry-!

Space travel? Neurosurgery? Veterinary hospitals? Fire departments? Hrrrm. Maybe those things aren't 'industries,' not sure. At any rate, I don't care if it is a life or death matter, or a simple matter of entertainment; that attitude shouldn't be tolerated.

"I don't know which species is worse; you don't see them screwing each other over for a goddamned percentage."

This is no time for a slow PC!
#35 by OmegaFoRCe
2002-04-27 22:28:30
Does the PC IRC server have a connection limit? I keep receiving a "Connection Refused" message when attempting to connect via mIRC. Does anyone have any suggestions? I can connect to other servers so I doubt that it's the client but I could be wrong.

... These aren't the craps you're looking for ...
#36 by Bailey
2002-04-27 22:37:18
Hrm. I dunno, it might be wrong for corporations to steal from the consumer, but it certainly isn't new or surprising. File it away for next time the warez discussion comes up, paste it, then proclaim "It's a double-edged sword!" or somesuch.

Drinking is fun! It makes me feel horrible and sexy!
#37 by deadlock
2002-04-27 22:40:17
http://www.deadlocked.org/
jafd:
What sticks in my craw is the attitude that this is okay to do. Yes, I'm aware that this attitude obviously exists, or it wouldn't be done. Maybe it's surprise that people think it's okay to think that it's okay to have that attitude? Or something.

Okay.

Jafd! Warren! Stop bickering or I'll be forced to change your opinions manually!
#38 by Bailey
2002-04-27 23:09:04
Good frigging lord of the monkey gods, whatever you do, do not even vaguely consider, observe, touch, or breathe the air in the vincinity of Diehard: Nakatomi Plaza. I'm blaming the developers and the publishers on this festering pile of VD-riddled code ever reaching the factory.

This is one of those games that started the whole "it's fun to hate on the internet" fad. Demo, begone!

Drinking is fun! It makes me feel horrible and sexy!
#39 by Matt Perkins
2002-04-27 23:23:31
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
#22 by Warren Marshall
  
You people are either extremely naive or just playing that you're upset.

Just because you know it happens doesn't mean you want it thrown in your face...  That publishers actually deal with it as our topic starting friend has said, with no conscience at, all is just discouraging...

#38 by Bailey

I'm blaming the developers and the publishers

Didn't you just see the big argument where the developers said it's not their fault ever?  Of course they can't be at fault for releasing a shit product, it has to be the publishers, shame on you.

I don't buy that...  If I make a vacuum cleaner that explodes dirt everyone instead of cleaning it up and I ship it because I had to or the distributor of my vacuum was going to get cranky/sue/leave/whatever, I'm still at fault.  You have to take responsibility for what you do, it's that simple...  That doesn't make it easy, but just because it isn't easy don't make it wrong.  imo.

Just thought I'd use your quote to make a point....  :)

Change of business notice: New, pimping game love, from yours truly.  Want to advertise your game on PC, but want to hear the pansies complain about 'pimping'?  Just ask wzrd, your new neighborhood pimp...rates cheap, integrity not intact, no game to stupid!
#40 by Warren Marshall
2002-04-27 23:38:18
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Bailey
Good frigging lord of the monkey gods, whatever you do, do not even vaguely consider, observe, touch, or breathe the air in the vincinity of Diehard: Nakatomi Plaza. I'm blaming the developers and the publishers on this festering pile of VD-riddled code ever reaching the factory.

This is one of those games that started the whole "it's fun to hate on the internet" fad. Demo, begone!

Too late.  I plunked down good money for that game yesterday.  It's now sitting on my shelf of games I will never play again.

When will I learn that "Lithtech" is another word for "don't buy me".

WoT?
#41 by deadlock
2002-04-27 23:42:20
http://www.deadlocked.org/
I'm curious Warren; do you just buy games on a whim, or do you ever read reviews first/talk to friends etc. ?

Jafd! Warren! Stop bickering or I'll be forced to change your opinions manually!
#42 by deadlock
2002-04-27 23:50:11
http://www.deadlocked.org/
I have but one question:

Who the fuck is kinetech ?

Jafd! Warren! Stop bickering or I'll be forced to change your opinions manually!
#43 by Warren Marshall
2002-04-27 23:51:47
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
I buy them on a whim most times.  I usually wander down to the local EB every Friday and if anything looks interesting, I pick it up.  I get burned sometimes, but often I'll come across something I wouldn't have discovered normally.  Games like "The Sting!".  An enjoyable little game that I bought for the hell of it ...

I also found "Delta Force : Land Warrior" and SimGolf this way ... games I wouldn't have bought normally, but they caught my eye at EB.

WoT?
#44 by crash
2002-04-28 00:08:22
funny. i actually read that sentence differently, and it kind of makes sense.

...sometimes, good marketing and PR can save a crappy game.

firstly, i posit that the "crappy game" in question is not done--i.e. is still in development. secondly, i posit that the reason the game is crappy is because it is unfinished, or does not have enough time to be "polished", or for any number of other reasons that could be rectified with (a) more money, (b) more time, or (c) both.

good marketing and PR can save this game by doing the following:

1. generating hype/fan interest/"buzz". if the PR and marketing is good, people will give the "crappy" status the benefit of the doubt (i.e. "Well it looks like shit now, but it's still in development--anything could happen. Yeah, they're using Lithtech, but you just never know..."). they will show their interest by making fan sites, talking on usenet, whatever.

2. if the buzz is sufficient, PR/marketing can point to this interest and say, "Look. It's worth throwing more money at this to get it out the door, because people really want it." they can say, "Look, we'll give 'em three more milestones outside the original contract--we can append it, maybe--to finish this and ship it." they can say, "Check it--if you release it now, you're going to lose an assload of money, but by spending maybe 10% more, you can increase that return on investment by 50%".

3. if this flies, bean-counters throw more money and time at dev team, giving them that crucial 3-4 months "polish". if it doesn't fly, we get (insert name of crappy game here). of course, this isn't a panacea--the game may still be crappy--but the odds are better.

to see this concept applied in a real-world situation, click here. time will tell if the marketing/PR helped 'em much, but at least they've got resources to give it a shot.



at least, that's the way i read it. only Kinetech knows for sure what he meant when he wrote it.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#45 by deadlock
2002-04-28 00:19:12
http://www.deadlocked.org/
Warren:

Ah, 'too much spare cash syndrome' 8P I suffer from that (very) occasionally. Although sometimes that's the best way to discover things that you would've otherwise missed. That new Eidos label looks cool from that point of view.

Jafd! Warren! Stop bickering or I'll be forced to change your opinions manually!
#46 by Charles
2002-04-28 00:27:52
www.bluh.org
Warren -

When will I learn that "Lithtech" is another word for "don't buy me".


I have a few slogans they could use to market their engine...

Lithtech - The Sunfire of game engines.
Lithtech - For when quality comes second.
Lithtech - We like wide FOVs.
Lithtech - For that 'three year old' look.
Lithtech - We have over 100 engine developers, and still can't match John Carmack.

Bailey:  Beep beep, motherfucker.
#47 by Bailey
2002-04-28 00:28:43
Good lord Warren, if there's a demo out, why take a chance? Even if you are a jet-set designer playboy with ice on yo wrist, bling bling.

Because of you, those sick fucks at Sierra, Fox, Monolith, and the other three logos I skipped past while the demo began make a buck or two! A buck or two TOO MUCH!

Drinking is fun! It makes me feel horrible and sexy!
#48 by "Zippertit"
2002-04-28 00:29:08
coming soon zippertit@redwingsloth.com
You must first ASK THE ORACLE!  Would you like to know ANYTHING FROM GOD? Well, GOD'S site is now up and running. His Magic 8-ball style says that if you ask him a question, "the ORACLE OF GOD will answer in a way you've never seen before." Have a burning question? Want to know the future? Ask GOD!

http://www.summum.org/GOD/godboard.htm

PS...this guy's a hoot!
#49 by deadlock
2002-04-28 00:31:04
http://www.deadlocked.org/
Oh yeah, that FRESH! link requires Flash.

Flash sux.

Jafd! Warren! Stop bickering or I'll be forced to change your opinions manually!
#50 by "Erik"
2002-04-28 00:31:08
When will I learn that "Lithtech" is another word for "don't buy me".


Global Operations is really good.
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Forget the Whales, Save the Crappy Games!

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
P O S T   A   C O M M E N T

You need to be logged in to post a comment here. If you don't have an account yet, you can create one here. Registration is free.
C R A P T A G S
Simple formatting: [b]bold[/b], [i]italic[/i], [u]underline[/u]
Web Links: [url=www.mans.de]Cool Site[/url], [url]www.mans.de[/url]
Email Links: [email=some@email.com]Email me[/email], [email]some@email.com[/email]
Simple formatting: Quoted text: [quote]Yadda yadda[/quote]
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
There are currently 0 people browsing this site. [Details]