PlanetCrap 6.0!
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
T O P I C
Why MMORPG item trading is not bad
April 18th 2002, 23:01 CEST by piramida

It is a generally accepted fact among MMORPG players that trading game items for real money is a Bad Thing. Most of the time, however, the reasoning beyond that statement is far from perfect. I would really love to hear PC elder's view on this subject.

MMORPG worlds, naturally, spawn item trading marketplaces, with their own unstable economies, akin to economies of third-world countries. Black markets of hard currency do exist in both and there's nothing that could be done to stop it, probably besides putting everyone in a separate prison cell (prohibiting item exchange at all). Abstracting from the gameplay itself, each MMORPG has thousands of people daily creating items which are demanded by thousands of other people. Instability (dependance on hacks, patches, server glitches, etc) makes the black hard currency market unevitable evil. No matter how hard the government would try to ban the very notion of dollar, the dollar is not going anywhere. In MMORPGs, it's even worse - moment when the item changes hands is not immediately tied to the moment cash changes hands, which makes tracking and banning item sales a laughably impossible task. But I'll skip the details of the process and discussion of possible fraud, since I believe this to be well known to those who've read past the first sentence. Let's just say that despite everything, item trade is booming, just visit your favourite auction site (or even the "slimy" Player Auctions) and do a few searches - tens of thousands of real dollars are exchaning hands every day.

Let's get straight to the moral and the question of this text: why are MMORPG item sales bad? Common answers are:

1. Because EULA prohibits it.
        Yeah... right. Next.

2. Because it gives hackers and fraudulent players a better incentive for doing all the Bad Things, perverting the intention of the original game and making the game world an unhappy greed-infested place without love.
        The universal answer, which always made me scream "bullshit". For most players, the incentive of having the uberitem in the game far outweights the possible gain of twenty dollars. Hacks have nothing to do with item trading - though used by traders wherever possible, it's just a tool rather than direct result of item trades. Even if items would have no value whatsoever people would be looking for a way to cheat the game, just do a research on popularity of cheating in single-player games. If there are loopholes, people would find them sooner or later, if there are people to fool, they will be fooled, and that's human nature.

3. Because game companies feel troubled that item losses caused by bugs in their software, networking glitches and people's stupidity can now be measured in dollars, which makes it a whole different situation requiring commercial security and tons of legal mumbo-jumbo.
        Most if not every MMORPG service provider states that everything contained on their server, including items, accounts and characters, always remains their property. I don't see how any player's claim could be ever tested in court, if they had never owned any of their items in the first place, and were never promised any insurance for their items - but then, I'm no lawyer. It just seems very logical.

4. Because it is not morally right to gain advantage over other "honest" players using your real-world financial status.
        Everyone plays the game the way that gives him/her the most satisfaction, even if that does not meet other player's expectations - the same way playing 24/7 gives you an "advantage". Most casual players, who form the demand for purchasable game items, can not dedicate much time to playing. Why do they have to keep themselves from buying something that they'd never be able to find in their lifetime but Really Want to have? It's their problem that they did not receive the satisfaction of "honestly" obtaining that item.

Besides, if you have a well established account in EQ and want to switch to an account in AC, you have no other means but sell/buying or starting all over leaving an unused account behind. Not everyone enjoys tedious leveling, some may like the status in itself, like most of you would not like (warning: irrelevant car analogy ahead) to save money for another year just to switch your (hypothetical) Porshe for Ferrari, throwing the Porshe away since you don't like it anymore. I know, legally you never owned the EQ account, but I'm talking about the motivation, and why this form of cheating known as item trades would stay.

Most casual players I approached on the subject immediately responded "People who buy items are idiots, I would never buy a virtual item for real money", and the very same people would, when given an item of outstanding usefullness for just 10$, would say "Sure, 10$ is nothing really, and it'll help make my game more fun". Maybe other people simply have more money to spend on their golf^H^H^H^Hhobby?

No, I'm not talking directly out of my ass, I'm generalizing what I've seen and researched on the matter. Game item trades are not bad, there is supply and there is demand, they are not going anywhere no matter how hard game companies are banning them, so why does almost everyone think it's something abnormal like eating babies? Because the traded subject is virtual? But so is, say, visiting a museum.

What do You think, besides obvious response that author is a moron who can't speak english?
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Why MMORPG item trading is not bad

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
#1 by Neale
2002-04-18 23:03:57
neale@pimurho.co.uk www.pimurho.co.uk
Foist!

Eradicators! - www.eradicators.co.uk
#2 by Max
2002-04-18 23:04:34
http://massivebraincase.org/
Author is a moron who can't speak english.

"I don't call him Rico Muerte or whatever his name was, he is and always will be Fatty McPantsdown." -MattG
#3 by Gunp01nt
2002-04-18 23:04:47
supersimon33@hotmail.com
I'm still unsure whether I would consider items in a computer game to be real commodities, but if there are ph00lz who are willing to pay actual money for an item, well, I dunno.. it's their loss.

Don't you wanna seize the day?
I wanna go back to reality
But I'm just addicted to stay
Guide me the way out of infinity
#4 by jafd
2002-04-18 23:05:02
The computer I'm working on was paid for almost wholly by Steins of Moggok. IOW... capitalism roxx0rs my boxx0r.

You just don't like being told what to do. Admit it.
#5 by Max
2002-04-18 23:05:13
http://massivebraincase.org/
Oh, wait, you said besides that. Sorry.

"I don't call him Rico Muerte or whatever his name was, he is and always will be Fatty McPantsdown." -MattG
#6 by bishop
2002-04-18 23:06:05
http://www.darkintel.org/00FF00/
I think that instead of trying to (in)validate the morality of doing it in existing games, we should have a game where it's either tied directly into the mechanic of the game, or where doing so is completely and totally worthless.

May the end of the world be warm and smoldering.
At least for some of you.
#7 by jjz
2002-04-18 23:10:10
Who would like to buy my Progressquest character?  It's ranked at 287 this second.
#8 by Martin
2002-04-18 23:11:54
http://www.mocol.nu
There should be a "Mark all posts read" next to a topic on the frontpage and / or in the archive so I don't have to open it to "read" the posts.

-- Martin
Free love! As in "Free beer!" And "Free Kevin Mitnick!" I suppose. Only he's already free.
#9 by Post-It
2002-04-18 23:12:18
keithlee@speakeasy.net
#6 Yeah, ... it's called Project Entropia.

Florida is the New Nazi FuckMonkeys.
-LPMiller (warzed quote, used without permission)
#10 by Gunp01nt
2002-04-18 23:13:04
supersimon33@hotmail.com
where doing so is completely and totally worthless.

As far as I'm concerned it already is.

It's just like paying money for rare Ninja Turtle stickers when you can buy a pack of bubblegum that might contain that sticker. then why pay money for the sticker alone? (ahh nostalgia)

when you come at that point, (I'm talking about MMOG's now, not Ninja Turtle stickers) is it about the game or about the marbles? fun or food? and isn't it kind of a silly trade to be in?

"What do you do for a living?"
"I sell virtual weapons, ma'am."



(that reply is even worse than "I fok horses." !)

Don't you wanna seize the day?
I wanna go back to reality
But I'm just addicted to stay
Guide me the way out of infinity
#11 by m0nty
2002-04-18 23:13:26
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
Hacks have nothing to do with item trading - though used by traders wherever possible, it's just a tool rather than direct result of item trades.

I disagree with what you wrote - or more to the point, the causal relationships you assert. Sure, hacks didn't start with item trading, but item trading relies on hacks. You can't run a company like Black Snow Interactive without major hacking of game systems.
#12 by Max
2002-04-18 23:13:41
http://massivebraincase.org/
I think developers should embrace this sort of thing, build it into their game, and take a cut of every transaction.  Imagine having 10% of every EQ transaction ever accomplished.

"I don't call him Rico Muerte or whatever his name was, he is and always will be Fatty McPantsdown." -MattG
#13 by HiredGoons
2002-04-18 23:13:55
About the first point:

Why the casual dismissal of the EULA?  I hate to be a literalist -- but unless there is something inherently immoral about the contract -- what is so bad about abiding by the terms of a contract you voluntarily agreed to?

If you don't like the contract, then don't play the game.  

They have the right to set the rules, and the players have the right to say "No, thanks."

It looks like you're saying the players have the right to play the game AND set the rules.
#14 by Matt Perkins
2002-04-18 23:14:15
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/

Game item trades are not bad, there is supply and there is demand, they are not going anywhere no matter how hard game companies are banning them

You might be on crack if...you hold the opinion that trading items in a game for actual money, doesn't upset the economy and player respect of any game.  (see camping items for money in EQ...people lose a lot of respect for other peoples time when they are doing it for money, not to mention how it affects the flow of the game).

This whole post makes no sense.  You state:

1. Because EULA prohibits it.
        Yeah... right. Next.

Yeah, fuck the EULA...  it means nothing, we only agree to it, it only holds up in a court of law...  but whatever, fuck it.

Hacks have nothing to do with item trading

Yeah, item traders that do it seriously don't hack the game, yeah, right!  you did see this, right?

Besides, if you have a well established account in EQ and want to switch to an account in AC, you have no other means but sell/buying or starting all over leaving an unused account behind.

Awww...  I can't just buy way into a game?  WTF!  What kind of world is this where I have to do my own game playing instead of paying someone else to do it for me...  that's just plain wrong.  (note the sarcasm)

So, I don't see a real point here...  you like item trading, you have "reasons", but no real justification for it...

My name comes up in conversation when you mention teh spelin.
#15 by Post-It
2002-04-18 23:14:58
keithlee@speakeasy.net
#12 see my post at #9.

Florida is the New Nazi FuckMonkeys.
-LPMiller (warzed quote, used without permission)
#16 by Leslie Nassar
2002-04-18 23:16:09
http://departmentofinternets.com
Welcome to the year 2002.  Here in The Future we don't care about little things like artist rights, contracts, or fair play.  It's all about fucking over whoever you can to get whatever you want.  Ethical standards are for those squares living in the past.

Want to talk on your cellphone in a theatre showing total disregard for fellow paying patrons?  Go right ahead!  You've got important business to conduct.  Be proud.

i like monkeys.  are you a monkey?
#17 by Matt Perkins
2002-04-18 23:18:58
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
#16 (Leslie has a point)
Yeah, you fucking payed for your cell phone and the air time right?  Tell everyone else to go to hell, it's your damn airtime!!!

This type of attitude could not be more annoying...  it applies to many things...  I'd like Bailey to kill everyone now, please.

My name comes up in conversation when you mention teh spelin.
#18 by Max
2002-04-18 23:19:27
http://massivebraincase.org/
You expect me to follow a link?  Bah.  This technology crap is overrated.

"I don't call him Rico Muerte or whatever his name was, he is and always will be Fatty McPantsdown." -MattG
#19 by Bailey
2002-04-18 23:20:18
wizard

Do not question the new economy.

I do believe piramida used both hands to shovel this pile, and have little else to say on the subject.

Stuck flat smack dab in the middle of a century with nothing to lose.
#20 by crash
2002-04-18 23:23:03
whee!

Let's just say that despite everything, item trade is booming, just visit your favourite auction site (or even the "slimy" Player Auctions) and do a few searches - tens of thousands of real dollars are exchaning hands every day.

millions and billions of real dollars are being made selling explosives to terrorists. millions and billions of dollars are made selling illegal pharmaceuticals. millions and billions of dollars are made selling tobacco products--legally, mind you--which are proven to kill people.

Let's get straight to the moral and the question of this text: why are MMORPG item sales bad?

because every game has rules, and breaking the rules of the game is only okay when it affects no one else. in MMOGs, which are closed systems, breaking the rules--by definition--affects everyone else. some directly, some indirectly, some acutely, some diluted.

to answer this another way: why aren't cheat codes allowed on public multiplayer servers? they're allowed in single play, after all--what's the difference? i should be able to type "noclip" or "allweps" any time i like, right? it's in the game code, so it must be okay.

The universal answer, which always made me scream "bullshit". For most players, the incentive of having the uberitem in the game far outweights the possible gain of twenty dollars. Hacks have nothing to do with item trading - though used by traders wherever possible, it's just a tool rather than direct result of item trades.

hi there. welcome to Generalization Land. my name is piramida, and i'll be your tour guide. for most players, eh? show me that survey, please. thanks. by the way, the sentence above needs correction:

Although hacking the game to obtain illicit items is by far the most popular and prevalent method for traders to ply their trade, hacks have nothing to do with trading.

it makes more sense that way. really. it does.

Even if items would have no value whatsoever people would be looking for a way to cheat the game, just do a research on popularity of cheating in single-player games.

comparing single-player games to multiplayer games when discussing cheating is a fallacy.

Everyone plays the game the way that gives him/her the most satisfaction, even if that does not meet other player's expectations - the same way playing 24/7 gives you an "advantage".

this statement is incorrect. everyone plays the game within the terms agreed upon that gives him/her the most satisfaction. if it's satisfying to me to abuse pathing or AI issues in EverQuest, guess what? ban. if it's satisfying to me to train on newbs and zone, guess what? ban. if it's satisfying to me to macro my character unattended in UO, guess what? ban. if it's satisfying to me to kill-steal people in EQ? ban.

if it's satisfying to me to sell virtual items that i exploited or hacked to obtain?

ban.

Why do they have to keep themselves from buying something that they'd never be able to find in their lifetime but Really Want to have? It's their problem that they did not receive the satisfaction of "honestly" obtaining that item.

here we go. this is the root. i'll break it down so it's easily understood: just because you want A Thing badly enough does not automatically give you the right or privilege to have said Thing.

Besides, if you have a well established account in EQ and want to switch to an account in AC, you have no other means but sell/buying or starting all over leaving an unused account behind.

gee, i know. playing the game the way it was designed sucks, don't it? here's a thought: don't like the mechanics? stop playing the games. gee. don't have to be a rocket scientist.

"But I want to buy a high-level account with lots of goodies to get to The Fun Part™!"

tip: the fun part is playing the game. that's it. you get no prize for "reaching the end" and there is no way to "win". thus, cheating is doubly stupid, because there's literally no point to it. you're not defeating the game--you're defeating the entire purpose of playing it.

No, I'm not talking directly out of my ass, I'm generalizing what I've seen and researched on the matter. Game item trades are not bad, there is supply and there is demand, they are not going anywhere no matter how hard game companies are banning them, so why does almost everyone think it's something abnormal like eating babies?

because it defeats and circumvents the entire purpose of playing the game. it's like buying tickets to tour europe, then paying someone else to go and take pictures and tell you what a good time you had.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#21 by EvilAsh
2002-04-18 23:39:12
evilash@eviladam.com www.eviladam.com
I Want to be a Rock Star... But I don't have the talent.. So I Am paying someone else who does have the talent to pass themselves off as me.. And then I can tell everyone I am that Rock  Star. WOOOT! ME special!

On 2002-04-18 04:47:00  Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me."
#22 by m0nty
2002-04-18 23:40:00
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
I just don't understand how much money is changing hands. I mean, why do people pay so much for these items? Are Americans so rich that they can afford to spend three- and four-figure sums to outfit their avatar? Some of the reserve prices at Player Auction are truly obscene.
#23 by jafd
2002-04-18 23:42:58
It's more like buying a backstage pass, so you can go on tour with the band and see all the neat stuff, than it is buying a photo album of someone who went backstage, really.

You just don't like being told what to do. Admit it.
#24 by Ergo
2002-04-18 23:43:00
EULA. EULA. Yoohooohooo EULA. By playing the game, you agree to it. End of story. Don't like it? Don't play.

"I want you to remember me just as I am...filled with murderous rage!" --Homer Simpson
#25 by EvilAsh
2002-04-18 23:45:16
evilash@eviladam.com www.eviladam.com
Most of these inviduals scarely enough can afford  it. Reading statement after statement from gamers who make well over 100k  a year and don't mind buying these items.

On 2002-04-18 04:47:00  Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me."
#26 by bishop
2002-04-18 23:48:54
http://www.darkintel.org/00FF00/
Reading statement after statement from gamers who make well over 100k


You mean their parents make well over 100K.

May the end of the world be warm and smoldering.
At least for some of you.
#27 by LPMiller
2002-04-18 23:59:09
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
I just don't understand how much money is changing hands. I mean, why do people pay so much for these items? Are Americans so rich that they can afford to spend three- and four-figure sums to outfit their avatar? Some of the reserve prices at Player Auction are truly obscene.


Are you trolling on purpose?  The game states are sold on an international level. It is hardly an American thing.

Hell, many of the hacks are made by you foreigners *spit*

It has nothing to do with money, and everything to do with obsession, followed by not understanding the "you don't win the game" concept.

Sometimes, its just to grab a useful character you don't have the time to create. Clerics in EQ were hot at one point, because of rezzing. People switch to the cleric to rez some guildmates, and that's all they use the cleric for.

A Character with Jboots - very hot at one time, because you could litterally camp the spawn spot for 48 straight hours and not get those damn boots. After awhile, it's just bloody easier to buy the damn things.

In UO, when there was ZERO land to build guildhouses on, it was pretty much the only way to get a home in game.

In dark age, because some folks just want to do RVR, and cannot devote the time needed to level that high.

I'm not saying any of that is right or proper - I think it's bent myself - but it isn't just a need to uber, and really doesn't have much to do with money, from a buyers standpoint - there are other in game reasons to do it.

Will warez for food.
#28 by None-1a
2002-04-19 00:00:02
I think developers should embrace this sort of thing, build it into their game, and take a cut of every transaction.  Imagine having 10% of every EQ transaction ever accomplished.


What happens when all of the nice item drops are being camped by people farming items? As soon as you say it's ok more people will be doing it, preventing every one else from getting those items with out paying for them. Leave things as they are now and those that really want to pay for crap will still be able to pay for it, every one else stays happy since they can play your game with out needing to put themselves in a debet hell for it.
#29 by jafd
2002-04-19 00:01:44
What happens when all of the nice item drops are being camped by people farming items?

Then you're playing a poorly designed game.

You just don't like being told what to do. Admit it.
#30 by Charles
2002-04-19 00:12:52
www.bluh.org
I think the main issue here is the fact that if the games were truly fun, people would just play them.  Except it's not fun to play until you have all the 'uber' items.  

If the games were more fun and less shit, I think the whole selling/buying of characters would be less overall.

Bailey:  Beep beep, motherfucker.
#31 by Bailey
2002-04-19 00:12:59
That phrase encompasses all known GIPs currently on the market. Go innovation!

Stuck flat smack dab in the middle of a century with nothing to lose.
#32 by Bailey
2002-04-19 00:13:25
Dammit Nova, I'm posting here. #31 in reference to #29.

Stuck flat smack dab in the middle of a century with nothing to lose.
#33 by HiredGoons
2002-04-19 00:19:57
Just out of pure malice, I'd like to see the game devs take a look at the hottest items selling on Ebay, and then adjust the game parameters to make those purchasers absolutely worthless.  

Ie, +12 Olsen Sword going for $300 on Ebay --- start giving them away by the bucket at the newbie spawn point.


I know, I know, that introduces distortion of a different type into that market.

Still...I'd like to see some of these hawkers take a bath on their "investments."
#34 by yotsuya
2002-04-19 00:22:32
LP hit it right on the head.

Arizona Diamondbacks 2001 World Series Champions
#35 by EvilAsh
2002-04-19 00:26:23
evilash@eviladam.com www.eviladam.com
Bishop that's not the case. I have read so many Cases of Product MAnagers.... CFo of businesses, LAwyers, Doctors who all play these type of games and spend money on them. Parent's are foolish to a point.. but after a while.. when you start seeing $2000 charges on your credit card.. you are going to Seriously look at your child a little differently.

On 2002-04-18 04:47:00  Some Sick fool said this.
"awww yeah, buzz baby, buzzzzz just for me."
#36 by Max
2002-04-19 00:31:52
http://massivebraincase.org/
Never having played any of these types of games, I'm not qualified to take much of a stance on this. That said... why is this such a problem?  Is it not possible to introduce some sort of item tracking that degrades the capability of any item permanently any time it's traded/lost/dropped/etc.?  Player A finds a +1 Olsen Sword, uses it for a while, upgrades it to +12 or whatever. As soon as it changes hands, it's a +1 Sword again.  Player B finds a +12 Olsen Sword (spawned by the game this time), but if it changes hands, it's just a +1 Sword again.  Or perhaps the capability is cut in half with each possession.

I'm sure there's some good reason, gameplay or otherwise, why this isn't done or possible. I haven't thought about it enough to tell you what it is, though. I guess much trading would be pointless, but... bah.

"I don't call him Rico Muerte or whatever his name was, he is and always will be Fatty McPantsdown." -MattG
#37 by LPMiller
2002-04-19 00:48:10
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
LP hit it right on the head.


and managed to show an obsessive love of -. - and -.

Will warez for food.
#38 by Max
2002-04-19 00:56:41
http://massivebraincase.org/
I love dashes - they're so immediate or something.

"I don't call him Rico Muerte or whatever his name was, he is and always will be Fatty McPantsdown." -MattG
#39 by "MrNutty"
2002-04-19 01:18:43
misternutty@hotmail.com
I fully agree with Nova.  These games (MMORPGs) aren't fun, they are just obsessive compulsive disorder acctuators.  That's why people don't have a problem 'cheating' at them.   I know lots of people who play Everquest and they pretty much all claim to hate the game, yet they play for hours on end...There really is something to 'game addiction' when it comes to these types of games..Not that I think the game companies should be liable (in the end people are responsible for their own actions)....
#40 by Nacho
2002-04-19 01:19:29
Here's what I'm wondering... (and maybe someone already touched on this, but I don't feel like reading all of this right now.) Do you, the player, actually have legal ownership over the items you collect? What you're collecting in these games are items that are stored on servers, which are owned by someone who allows you access to them, as long as you pay your monthly fee. Sounds a bit like a lease of intangible property, doesn't it? And, I don't believe you can just can sell off something you're just leasing.

I'm not a legal expert, so I may be wrong about this. So, anyone who happens to know a bit about property law, feel free to prove me wrong.

<smartandfunnysig>. .</smartandfunnysig>
#41 by jafd
2002-04-19 01:31:32
As far as I know, no EULA has any legal authenticity, as of yet.

Am I mistaken about this?

Personally, I don't see the EULA being any more respectable than the wishes of the authors that Amazon is ignoring...

You just don't like being told what to do. Admit it.
#42 by Martin
2002-04-19 01:34:56
http://www.mocol.nu
#40 by Nacho
(and maybe someone already touched on this, but I don't feel like reading all of this right now.)

Which of course is the best way to jump into a discussion...

-- Martin
Free love! As in "Free beer!" And "Free Kevin Mitnick!" I suppose. Only he's already free.
#43 by crash
2002-04-19 01:35:29

These games (MMORPGs) aren't fun, they are just obsessive compulsive disorder acctuators.

they're a lot of fun, once you get over the fact that the entire point of the game is to play, not to win. and uber items are not necessary to have fun. they only are if you're led by the lure of "winning" the game.

but then, you've all been trained to "get to the end" and "win" for nearly your entire gaming existence, so it's understandable that this might cause some confusion and misinterpretation.

i'll agree that they could be a whole lot more. but i disagree that the "whole lot less" they are now is utterly dissatisfying. the only people that complain about level treadmills? powergamers. too busy trying to win to bother to play the game. jumping from game to game to be the firstest with the mostest and the bestest, when--in the final analysis--it doesn't really matter, and isn't an impediment to having "fun".

sad, really. but they're sad, not me, and whether they're frustrated or not, i still have a good time.

and bottom line, end of the day, that's all that matters to me.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#44 by HiredGoons
2002-04-19 01:36:18
In common law, there might be something to that, Nacho.

However, in almost all situations a voluntary contract between two consenting adults is controlling.  

To get out of a contract (ie, to get a court to let you out of it) you have to prove something like:  unconscionability, fraud, duress, or mistake.  Not reading the terms is a bad defense.  There are other defenses, but courts really don't like running around voiding contracts that willing parties agree to.

That is, whatever property rights you may have are subject to the terms of that agreement.  You may have some type of common law right to +12 Olsen Swords, or maybe not, but the EULA is typically unambiguous about who has ownership.

Plus, there are usually kinds of clauses like "either party may terminate at will.", in these sorts of things.  

So, if you're doing something they don't like or the game gods feel like smiting you at random, you're at their mercy.  Of course, if they are arbitrary too often and wantonly cruel then nobody will do business with them in the long run.
#45 by HiredGoons
2002-04-19 01:51:23
jafd

This is a fairly representative paragraph of how the federal courts have ruled on EULAs, shrink-wrap and click-wrap licenses.

Moore v. Microsoft Corp., 2002 N.Y. App. Div.

"We agree with the Supreme Court that the End-User License Agreement (hereinafter the EULA) contained in the defendant's software program is a validly binding contract between the parties which bars the plaintiff's claims (see Brower v Gateway 2000, 246 A.D.2d 246, 676 N.Y.S.2d 569). The terms of the EULA  were prominently displayed on the program user's computer screen before the software could be installed.

Moreover, the program's user was required to indicate assent to the EULA by clicking on the "I agree" icon before proceeding with the download of the software. Thus, the defendant offered a contract that the plaintiff accepted by using the software after having an opportunity to read the license at leisure. As a result, the plaintiff's claims are barred by the clear disclaimers, waivers of liability, and limitations of remedies contained in the EULA (see ProCD, Inc. v Zeidenberg, 86 F.3d 1447; Specht v Netscape Communications Corp., 150 F. Supp. 2d 585)."
#46 by Shadarr
2002-04-19 02:18:57
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
Max,

I think the main problem with making items worthless to anyone but the finder is that you want to encourage in game commerce, but discourage real-money transactions. The best way to do that would be to aggressively shut down real-world auctions, but that could prove to be too much of a hassle.


I agree with everyone who says it's a flaw in the game design. My favourite RPG (other than Fallout) is Shadowrun for Genesis. A couple times a year, I fire it up and play for a week or so, and I always start from the very beginning. There are cheat codes to get money, experience, whatever, but I don't use them because it's more fun to play the game the way it was meant to be played. If the same were true of PIGs, there wouldn't be this problem.
#47 by HiredGoons
2002-04-19 02:23:22
Forgot to put this:

Moore v. Microsoft
#48 by Bailey
2002-04-19 02:32:35
I preferred Shadowrun for the SNES.

Stuck flat smack dab in the middle of a century with nothing to lose.
#49 by jafd
2002-04-19 02:45:49
HiredGoons, thank you. That's very interesting, and was unknown to me until now.

Is this the only instance of an EULA being endorsed by the court system?

Aside from that, however... what if I just laundered any or all of my loot to an account that is played from a country outside the U.S., then sold the items? Would that be legal? Or illegal?

Who cares?

Rhetorical questions such as these simply highlight the problem... GIPs create a "simulated" economy that nevertheless has real-world value. Slapping a label on it that says, "Don't do this! Or we'll be mad at you!" does exactly nothing to alleviate the problem, and in fact, makes it worse for legitimate users.

Ever since Verant changed their EULA, I have personally abstained from my money-making hobby. That's because I'm a mostly moral and ethical person. Guess what? I'm in the minority.

Do you think the people playing EQ would rather deal with farmers with a sense of fair play, or ones without? It's the old saw... "if you criminalize item sales, then only criminals will sell items."

You just don't like being told what to do. Admit it.
#50 by jafd
2002-04-19 02:47:26
p.s.: I'd love to sell my old EQ accounts to another honest person. Email me!

</irony>

You just don't like being told what to do. Admit it.
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Why MMORPG item trading is not bad

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
P O S T   A   C O M M E N T

You need to be logged in to post a comment here. If you don't have an account yet, you can create one here. Registration is free.
C R A P T A G S
Simple formatting: [b]bold[/b], [i]italic[/i], [u]underline[/u]
Web Links: [url=www.mans.de]Cool Site[/url], [url]www.mans.de[/url]
Email Links: [email=some@email.com]Email me[/email], [email]some@email.com[/email]
Simple formatting: Quoted text: [quote]Yadda yadda[/quote]
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
There are currently 0 people browsing this site. [Details]