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Where are all the new old games?
April 16th 2002, 14:25 CEST by Nova Z

I find myself playing more old games than new games lately on my consoles...  and find myself asking: Why?

Then I look around, and compare my new games to my old games, and realized that with the advent of 3D, most companies seemed to have dumped a perfectly viable game genre:  2D games.  When fancy 3D rendering came out, did 2D games suddenly stop being fun?  I don't think so.  In fact, these old games are not only still fun, but are more fun that their 3d counterparts!  

Yet everywhere we look, companies are butchering classic 2D games, by slapping them into a shoddy 3rd person, and spending all their time trying to make them look pretty rather than making them fun.  If these 3D versions had actually evolved, gameplay-wise, developing more than just a 3rd dimension, perhaps they wouldn't seem so half assed.  Yet everywhere, we are faced with 3rd person games with bad camera angles, annoying jumping puzzles, horrible combat systems.  Games inferior to their predecessors.  So what are these people thinking?  And then, the largest travesty of all:  One of the best sidescrollers of all times, Metroid, is being positively defiled, as it turns into a first person shooter.

On the other hand, people believe that 3d graphics require 3d freedoms.  What would be so wrong with a 3D side scroller?  It would certainly continue to be fun, as any other 2D game.  Or make a classic top down action adventure, that doesn't require annoying controls, and awkward game worlds.  It can all be done in 3D, in 2D.  This isn't to say it hasn't been done... there are a few titles out there that have done just this.  But they weren't done all that well, or they weren't high profile titles to begin with, and just didn't get enough media exposure.

Normally, I'd blame nostalgia for my love of sidescrollers, and 2D platformers.  Except that these games are still fun.  More often than not when I allow nostalgia to sucker me in to replaying an old game, I find myself wondering how I ever liked it in the first place.  If a game has been bettered in any fashion, I find it hard to go back to the root.  Yet I can still play 2D platformers with glee.  So is it nostalgia?  Or is it the fact that 3d platformers just haven't bettered 2D platformers as of yet?  Why take one step forward (graphics), only to take two steps back (gameplay)?

I want new old games.
C O M M E N T S
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#1 by MCorleone
2002-04-16 14:27:56
Blackthorne by Blizzard owned.

Build a man a fire and you'll keep him warm for the rest of the night.  Light a man on fire and you'll keep him warm for the rest of his life.
#2 by Durzel
2002-04-16 14:33:08
durzel@barrysworld.com http://www.superficial.net
w00t 2nd post
#3 by Bailey
2002-04-16 14:33:27
I miss NiGHTS. That was a night meeting of the two worlds.

I'm relatively certain I have nothing of value to contribute to this conversation.
#4 by Bailey
2002-04-16 14:33:56
(shaking head) A "nice" meeting, and I'm putting the pipe down now mom, so stop yelling at me.

I'm relatively certain I have nothing of value to contribute to this conversation.
#5 by Durzel
2002-04-16 14:37:10
durzel@barrysworld.com http://www.superficial.net
But seriously, myself and many of my friends are still really into the Street Fighter series (pre-EX, when it went shite).  There was (and is) tournaments still held across the country (the UK anyway) for Street Fighter players, the most recent of which took place in London.

The main problem I think nowadays is that the young gaming cognoscenti are sold on graphics and hype rather than perceived playability.  Until that cultural climate changes, 3D FPS' will continue to be de rigueur for modern day games.
#6 by Bailey
2002-04-16 14:47:41
Because graphics and hype can't measure up to Ken and Ryu throwing Hadokens at each other for five minutes until someone flubs it. Gotcha.

I'm relatively certain I have nothing of value to contribute to this conversation.
#7 by Warren Marshall
2002-04-16 15:22:44
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Not another one of these threads ...  I'll be in the corner, weeping, if anyone needs me.

"Back in MY day, we didn't have 3D ... and we liked it!"

WoT?
#8 by Warren Marshall
2002-04-16 15:24:09
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
A quick break from my weeping ...

The main problem I think nowadays is that the young gaming cognoscenti are sold on graphics and hype rather than perceived playability.

Such utter bullshit.  Realize that Street Fighter had stunningly good graphics when it first came out.  kthx.

WoT?
#9 by Marsh Davies
2002-04-16 15:30:15
www.verbalchilli.com
Nova Z:
If these 3D versions had actually evolved, gameplay-wise, developing more than just a 3rd dimension, perhaps they wouldn't seem so half assed.  


Although I agree with your dissatisfaction at losing admirable examples of gameplay, I think you are picking on the wrong element - 3D is a great step forward, and you can quite happily make a superb sidescrolling platform using 3 dimensions to render it. I think an example of this would be Blowout. It all goes wrong when developers succumb to the temptation of updating the gameplay; changing the mode of play from one solid genre to a jarring compromise.


Unrelated, a link on Blue's gives me every reason to hate patents.

-- ex Spatula Man --
#10 by Hugin
2002-04-16 15:31:00
lmccain@nber.org
The 3D versions of Street Fighter are mediocre simply because they're mediocre, not because there's anything inherently wrong with 3D.  Give the Capcom art assets to Namco, and see what you get (same thing for SNK, the thought of the Samurai Showdown characters I love in the Soul Calibur engine makes me tingly)

I understand the idea of playing a perfectly fun 2D game, I loved for example, Castlevaia SOTN.  But I think a lot of the resentment of 3D and the nostalgia for 2D is..well, nostalgia, given extra political energy from folks resenting games with poor gameplay that also happen to be 3D. Einhander was a wonderful side-scrolling 3D shooter, and the 3D allowed it to have moments of gameplay that would be impossible to have done in 2D, there is no bad there.  3D platformers don't have to suck either.  Naughty Dog did a good job with the Crash games, and I just now finally finished Devil May Cry (long story, it was at a freinds house, we played it together a few hours at a time over the course of months, and my god that game had the bestest cheesiest ending ever, but I digress), and the "platform" elements of the game were perfectly fine to me, I almost never felt unduly frustrated by the jumping, even though the game had some blind jumps, and even though you never had direct control over the camera. (As opposed to say, the jumping in the Armored Core games, which was horrid)

Good is good. Bad is bad.  3D, implemented well, kicks 2D's ass.  There's nothing wrong with 2D, there are great 2D games, and there could still be great 2D games, just as there were great wireframe/vector games (Elite!)...but after a certain point, you're just wallowing in nostalgia.
#11 by Marsh Davies
2002-04-16 15:36:05
www.verbalchilli.com
Warren:
Not another one of these threads ... I'll be in the corner, weeping, if anyone needs me.


Oh, stop snivelling and write a topic, you big pansy!

-- ex Spatula Man --
#12 by Bailey
2002-04-16 15:45:44
Martin Davies

I think an example of this would be Blowout.

Abuse? Is that you? Why, you haven't changed a bit!

Oh, and your patents link is dead.

I'm relatively certain I have nothing of value to contribute to this conversation.
#13 by Duality
2002-04-16 15:47:03
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
Samurai Spirits ... 3 is it?  I've got it imported for the PSX and it is an excellent game (if not somewhat easy, just like Samurai Shodown).  I actually liked the 3D implemenation for that.

And I totally dig the 3d platformers.  I've mentioned it time and again about how cool Jak and Daxter is.

You're the new nazis.
#14 by Warren Marshall
2002-04-16 15:48:03
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Hugin

That's the perfect counter argument : Soul Caliber.  Possibly the greatest fighting game of all time ... and, *gasp*, it's in 3D!

WoT?
#15 by Matt Perkins
2002-04-16 15:51:55
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
Warren:
Right, each and every game is a beast on it's own.  Some games are great in 2d, some are great in 3d.  Trying to limit all types of any game to one kind of graphics or another is just plain stupid.

I keep hearing Soul Calibur 2 is coming...  please let it come already!

My name comes up in conversation when you mention teh spelin.
#16 by Marsh Davies
2002-04-16 15:56:48
www.verbalchilli.com
Bailey:
Oh, and your patents link is dead.


No!!

*sigh*

-- ex Spatula Man --
#17 by sentinel
2002-04-16 16:06:39
If you want to play 2D games, get a Gameboy Advance. It has Mario (the second released game is a port of Super Mario World that was originally released on SNES, quite possibly the best platform game ever!) and now Sonic as well, along with newer classics like Klonoa, Rayman, Wario and lots more. I'm already hooked on SMA2 even though I could dream the game back when I had it on my SNES.

I agree that I'd love to see 2D games using current 3D technology - I remember those 2D scrolling shoot'em-ups in the arcade that had ultra-low resolution rendered animations. Imagine those visuals only now in 1600x1200 on your GeForce4... Not sure if it would be a major hit with the general public though, which is probably why nobody's actually making stuff like that unfortunately :( Perhaps if someone came up with a way to make this game fun in an online multiplayer setting the genre could be a hit again, but I don't think that's a simple task.

About StreetFighter 2, I disagree about it supposedly being so much better in its original 2D form. And don't tell me I don't know, I was dutch champion in 1993 :) But I enjoyed the EX-series immensely and in spite of all the incredibly bad reviews of SF3 on the PS2, I enjoy that one as well. I play it much more than the hyped Capcom vs. SNK 2 that everyone in the SF-scene is talking about.

But I really doubt whether it's a 2D or 3D version has anything to do with how good it is or how much fun it is playing it. I personally think the souped up 3D graphics look way cooler so that adds some fun for me, even though the graphics are not really the deciding factor ofcourse. Currently though, I'm trying to get my hands on VF4 (it was supposed to come out yesterday here!), which will hopefully drag me away from 2D fighters forever. Change is good.
#18 by Greg
2002-04-16 16:15:13
Street Fighter 2 had 3D-esque floors! So there, it is a 3D game!

Einhander, while everything being in 3D, wasn't that much of a 3D shooter. It was more of a 2D shooter that was 3D rendered. Sure there were a couple points where the screen would twist or rotate but essentially the game was played on a 2D plane.

Greg

-Swallow it all and be glad, for a shilling I've paid and a shilling's worth I'll be having!
#19 by Charles
2002-04-16 16:16:06
www.bluh.org
I have no problem with 3d games, if done right.  Soul Calibur *is* my favorite fighting game.  I own at Soul Calibur!  Actually, Soul Calibur is the only 3D fighting game I like.  Tekken, DOA, Virtua Fighter... none of those compare to capcom's 2D fighting games, IMO.  Something about the control that I can't quite put my finger on.  Anyone played Capcom vs SNK 2?  A good example of using 2D and 3D together.  The characters and gameplay is all 2D, but the backgrounds are mostly 3D, and look damn fine.

And also, Martin, I did mention in my topic that using 3D to make a 2D game is perfectly fine.  Einhander *is* a good example.  I enjoyed that game.  I wish there were more like it.

I have no problem at all with 3D graphics;  they are great, and do allow for some excellent things that couldn't happen in just 2D alone.  I thought it was great how SOTN used 3d to mix the styles.  

Warren-

Not another one of these threads ...  I'll be in the corner, weeping, if anyone needs me.

"Back in MY day, we didn't have 3D ... and we liked it!"


This isn't one of those threads, if you'd take the time to read the topic.  This isn't some wacked out nostalgia trip either;  many games I play today give me a far better experience than what used to be had.  But my point (just to re-iterate, since you obviously didn't read the topic), is that a complete genre has been mostly left behind.  I'm relegated to playing 2D sidescrollers and platformers on my GBA, even though they'd probably be a superior experience if done on a console, with a full 3D makeover, but the same gameplay.  You seem to think that I'm arguing an argument similar to "Sprites are superior to 3D characters!@!!!111!!  LONG LIVE WOLFANSTINE".  That's just not it.

Bailey:  Beep beep, motherfucker.
#20 by Foodbunny
2002-04-16 16:35:06
foodbunny@attbi.com http://www.foodbunny.com
I have never liked 2d fighters very much.  I played the Mortal Kombat games until I saw Tekken and I never went back.  I just don't understand something about 2d fighters, and I want to say that it's the timing of the moves but that isn't quite right.  Well, whatever, I just don't understand them and I'm perfectly happy playing Tekken.

They're cute, they're cuddly and jam shoots out their heads.  I want 'em all!
#21 by Gunp01nt
2002-04-16 16:35:24
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Nova:

platformers aren't being ported to 3d because we've risen above the level of Tomb Raider 1 a loooong time ago, and let's face it, 2d gameplay in a 3d environment is even less versatile than Tomb Raider.

you buy a GBA for the portability and short play fun of handhelds. You don't expect to get Baldur's Gate 3D on your GBA, you're happy with Mario because it has moderate depth and allows for good short fun. Same reason why you'll never play EQ on your cellphone.

On a console people expect a little more than simplistic platform games, even if it's 3d it would get old reeeeaaallly fast and people just rather spend their money on GTA3, which is basically also a 3d platformer but with hugely evolved gameplay.

Don't you wanna seize the day?
I wanna go back to reality
But I'm just addicted to stay
Guide me the way out of infinity
#22 by Martin
2002-04-16 16:41:49
http://www.mocol.nu
#19 by Nova Z
I'm relegated to playing 2D sidescrollers and platformers on my GBA, even though they'd probably be a superior experience if done on a console, with a full 3D makeover, but the same gameplay.

Get Jak & Daxter. One of the best games on the PS2 right now.

-- Martin
Free love! As in "Free beer!" And "Free Kevin Mitnick!" I suppose. Only he's already free.
#23 by MCorleone
2002-04-16 16:43:21
Samurai Shodown == American name for Samurai Spirits - Same series.

Build a man a fire and you'll keep him warm for the rest of the night.  Light a man on fire and you'll keep him warm for the rest of his life.
#24 by Martin
2002-04-16 16:48:37
http://www.mocol.nu
#21 by Gunp01nt
platformers aren't being ported to 3d because we've risen above the level of Tomb Raider 1 a loooong time ago

True and false. Games has evolved beyond TR1 but this has nothing to do with platformers being ported to new consoles / 3D. I didn't know we we're talking about ports to begin with.

and let's face it, 2d gameplay in a 3d environment is even less versatile than Tomb Raider.

False. 2D gameplay in a 3D environment is as versatile and innovative as you make it.

you buy a GBA for the portability and short play fun of handhelds. You don't expect to get Baldur's Gate 3D on your GBA, you're happy with Mario because it has moderate depth and allows for good short fun.

Stupid. Play through Advance Wars and Golden Sun and then come back here.

On a console people expect a little more than simplistic platform games

True. But who is talking about simplistic platform games? Who says that a platformer can't be extremely appealing and innovative?

even if it's 3d it would get old reeeeaaallly fast and people just rather spend their money on GTA3, which is basically also a 3d platformer but with hugely evolved gameplay.

False. As I said in the previous post, play Jak & Dexter and you wouldn't say this. Rayman 2 on the DC is also very charming.

-- Martin
Free love! As in "Free beer!" And "Free Kevin Mitnick!" I suppose. Only he's already free.
#25 by Gunp01nt
2002-04-16 16:54:54
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Martin, I'm responding to Nova Z's
I'm relegated to playing 2D sidescrollers and platformers on my GBA, even though they'd probably be a superior experience if done on a console, with a full 3D makeover, but the same gameplay.


biznatch.

Don't you wanna seize the day?
I wanna go back to reality
But I'm just addicted to stay
Guide me the way out of infinity
#26 by Martin
2002-04-16 16:59:04
http://www.mocol.nu
If all you think of when you hear "platform games in 3D" is "Donkey Kong with tons of polygons" then I can see why you're pessimistic but there are so much more that can be done, and has been done, with platformers. The examples I have mentioned so far are the ones I've had several hours hands-on experience with but there are other platformers out there. And if I hadn't been so damn tired (and if the EG search would have worked) I could have dug up some more examples of recent 3D platformers that has gotten good reviews.

Lousy 3D platformers isn't about limited gameplay, it's about limited visions. A skilled developer can create a great 3D platformer.

-- Martin
Free love! As in "Free beer!" And "Free Kevin Mitnick!" I suppose. Only he's already free.
#27 by Martin
2002-04-16 17:03:21
http://www.mocol.nu
#25 by Gunp01nt
Martin, I'm responding to Nova Z's

I'm relegated to playing 2D sidescrollers and platformers on my GBA, even though they'd probably be a superior experience if done on a console, with a full 3D makeover, but the same gameplay.

I don't see him mentioning ports in that sentence. Or TR1 either for that matter.

"Platform gameplay" in my book means that you have to have great timing and positioning to succeed (hey, just like marketing!) but the execution can be anything from Sonic Adventures to Super Mario 64. So the phrase "the same gameplay" doesn't have to mean "jumping barrels while climbing a construction site".

-- Martin
Free love! As in "Free beer!" And "Free Kevin Mitnick!" I suppose. Only he's already free.
#28 by Marsh Davies
2002-04-16 17:04:58
www.verbalchilli.com
Nova Z:
And also, Martin, I did mention in my topic that using 3D to make a 2D game is perfectly fine.  


My bad. I don't know how I didn't catch that bit the first time round. :P

-- ex Spatula Man --
#29 by Gunp01nt
2002-04-16 17:06:19
supersimon33@hotmail.com
If all you think of when you hear "platform games in 3D" is "Donkey Kong with tons of polygons" then I can see why you're pessimistic but there are so much more that can be done, and has been done, with platformers.


but platformers in 2d? never seen those any different than your basic walking around, jumping, shooting and sometimes using stuff (prime example would be Flashback, which was a total adventure game and platformer at the same time).

Now read carefully, before you end up posting some more about me having a too narrow vision of platformers... I'm NOT saying 3d platformers are shallow, but Nova Z wants 'shallow' 2d plaformers with 3d graphics. THAT's what I was commenting. not the 3d platformers that are available.

Don't you wanna seize the day?
I wanna go back to reality
But I'm just addicted to stay
Guide me the way out of infinity
#30 by Martin
2002-04-16 17:13:54
http://www.mocol.nu
Gunp01nt: Ok, then you interpreted him differently than me.

-- Martin
Free love! As in "Free beer!" And "Free Kevin Mitnick!" I suppose. Only he's already free.
#31 by Marsh Davies
2002-04-16 17:15:22
www.verbalchilli.com
Gunp01nt... but as Serious Sam proved, "shallow" gameplay can be fun. I still love to play simple platformers... Flashback included, as it happens. Why not have more games as simple as this, just with updated graphics?

-- ex Spatula Man --
#32 by Hugin
2002-04-16 17:30:53
lmccain@nber.org
Where, just by the way, is my goddamn 3D Gamecube version of Metroid? A 3D version of Metroid that was (by reviews and word of mouth) anything above mediocre in quality would get me to buy a GC in an instant.  Why Nintendo hasn't released basically anything in the way of it's frontline brand games (Mario, Zelda, Metroid, etc) kills me. It's like launching the N64 all over again, except this time without Mario 64. Sigh.  I'm willing to purchase/use/buy games for two consoles at any given time, and Nintendo isn't giving me even half an excuse to go from PS2/Dreamcast to PS2/GC, damn them.

Dear Nintendo: Metroid 3D.  Hurry the hell up. Thank you.
#33 by Marsh Davies
2002-04-16 17:33:25
www.verbalchilli.com
Woah, Gunp01nt, what the fuck is you're government doing? The entire cabinet just resigned.

-- ex Spatula Man --
#34 by Charles
2002-04-16 17:34:49
www.bluh.org
Nova Z wants 'shallow' 2d plaformers with 3d graphics.


I do?  Someone should have told me!  

I've played 2D platformers with far more depth than things I've played in 3d that were 'successful'.  Go play Super Metroid and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, then come back to the topic.  Maybe you won't sound like such an idiot.

Bailey:  Beep beep, motherfucker.
#35 by Bailey
2002-04-16 17:35:44
Nova-Z

Tekken, DOA, Virtua Fighter... none of those compare to capcom's 2D fighting games, IMO.

Virtua Fighter makes every other fighter game ever made look like baked alaskan ass, in my humble opinion.

I'm relatively certain I have nothing of value to contribute to this conversation.
#36 by Matthew Gallant
2002-04-16 17:36:09
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
NINTENDO OWES YOU NOTHING!

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#37 by Gunp01nt
2002-04-16 17:38:29
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Woah, Gunp01nt, what the fuck is you're government doing? The entire cabinet just resigned.

what are they doing? they're showing some guts and actually take the blame for mistakes they've made in the past that cost thousands of people's lives (the Srebrenica incident). I dunno, but I think it's a respectable action, especially since our prime minister isn't keeping clear of the crossfire this time (well duh he only had a month in politics left anyway, so it's not a big loss to him)

Don't you wanna seize the day?
I wanna go back to reality
But I'm just addicted to stay
Guide me the way out of infinity
#38 by Charles
2002-04-16 17:40:34
www.bluh.org
Virtua Fighter makes every other fighter game ever made look like baked alaskan ass, in my humble opinion.


Maybe.  I've never been able to explain why I don't like most 3D fighters.  Something about the controls, or the response.  Soul Calibur was hella fun, but I think that's just cause there was more feedback when you hit someone.  Or blocked, or parried, etc.

Mine is an unreasonable dislike, so I don't expect you to accept it.

Bailey:  Beep beep, motherfucker.
#39 by Marsh Davies
2002-04-16 17:41:30
www.verbalchilli.com
Well, you're in a better position to judge than I am... I wasn't even aware that they'd been fingered for responsibility. It seems a little extreme, but it shows integrity at least, which is more than most politicians.

-- ex Spatula Man --
#40 by Gunp01nt
2002-04-16 17:44:52
supersimon33@hotmail.com
I wasn't even aware that they'd been fingered for responsibility. It seems a little extreme, but it shows integrity at least, which is more than most politicians.

I certainly hope foreign media don't forget to mention Srebrenica and the NIOD report (which came from a large scale investigation into the role of the dutch government and army in the Srebrenica incident) as major causes for the resignation. Otherwise everyone's gonna think the Netherlands are some kinda anarchy or something.

The cabinet remains demissionary, which means they keep the seats warm till the next elextions early may.

and I STILL don't know who to vote for, damn...

Don't you wanna seize the day?
I wanna go back to reality
But I'm just addicted to stay
Guide me the way out of infinity
#41 by "flamethrower"
2002-04-16 17:48:13
Dutch politics

1. Permit massacre of 7,000 Muslims because you crack troops meant they are crackhead troops.

2. Wait seven years for UN report.

3. "Resign" with less than 30 days to go before the election. You will also run the interim administration. Permit electorate to forgive your generous public display of remorse and punishment.

4. Pim Fortyn is on the scene. He is quite literally a gay nazi. I'm not kidding. He won one of the biggest cites in the local elections and he's saying he'll get Parlimentary seats or HE'LL resign.
#42 by Bailey
2002-04-16 17:50:29
Mine is an unreasonable dislike, so I don't expect you to accept it.

That's for the best, really. And I don't expect your strange yet quaint caveman ways to ever change, it's part of what makes you who you are, you strange creature frozen in time, you. We're all just trying to find something to hold onto in this topsy-turvy world of ours.

Additional note: You you you.

I'm relatively certain I have nothing of value to contribute to this conversation.
#43 by Marsh Davies
2002-04-16 17:50:37
www.verbalchilli.com
Gunp01nt:
and I STILL don't know who to vote for, damn...


What are the choices?

-- ex Spatula Man --
#44 by Gunp01nt
2002-04-16 17:57:49
supersimon33@hotmail.com
What are the choices?


well...


1. The parties united in the currently (well not anymore anyway) governing coalition, which are lame pussies with a little overrespect for (or fear of) the resident muslim ethnical groups and inadequate solutions to this country's main problems ("but hey, there are some other things we DID do right!")

2. Some parties which claim to be different from the parties mentioned in 1. but are basically the same dumbasses when it comes down to it.

3. A bald gay dude in a very wrong black chalkstripe suit (as mentioned by flamey) who is DEFINITELY different than the 1. and 2. parties, thinks he has the answer to all problems but doesn't know he's basically a retard.

choose wisely.

Don't you wanna seize the day?
I wanna go back to reality
But I'm just addicted to stay
Guide me the way out of infinity
#45 by Ergo
2002-04-16 17:57:56
"I'm sorry, your Honor, I was just listening to the voices coming from this magic box."

(holds up cell phone)

--Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.
#46 by Whisp
2002-04-16 18:00:08
Judging from this guy I roomed with last summer, there is a definite split in the fighting game community between the 2D and 3D gamers.  It has nothing to do with the graphics, really.  As you mentioned, many new 2D fighting games now incorporate 3D graphics.  It's more the way they play - a 3D fighter has some fundamental differences from a 2D game.  Some people prefer one or the other, and from what I can tell, the communty surrounding them is pretty divided, at least at the tournament level.  Gamers will move around within the 2D or 3D games, but they don't switch between the two.

Of course, I say this as an outsider looking in, so I may be horribly wrong.
#47 by Gunp01nt
2002-04-16 18:02:55
supersimon33@hotmail.com
1. Permit massacre of 7,000 Muslims because you crack troops meant they are crackhead troops.

to be fair though, the on-the-spot alternative would've been to duke it out with Mladic' forces and that would only raise the bodycount a little but would have no impact whatsoever on the outcome.

plus the french denied air support, and then there's the order from the dutch MOD saying no dutch soldiers were to get hurt. The dutch commanding officer is considered a spineless weasel by most (especially the champagne toast with Mladic - the serb general who agreed to let the dutch troops leave unharmed, and then proceeded to slaughter all men in the city - caused quite some anger with many people) but I personally think he was in a terrible predicament and chose the solution he thought was best. What else could he do? he'd asked for assistance and air support but didn't get it.

Don't you wanna seize the day?
I wanna go back to reality
But I'm just addicted to stay
Guide me the way out of infinity
#48 by Marsh Davies
2002-04-16 18:04:28
www.verbalchilli.com
Great, Gunp01nt. Here I was thinking that Holland was a political nirvana for a lefty libertarian such as myself. I was seriously considering trying to get a job out there; it's always seemed such a nice place when I've visited... But there were probably other reasons for the fuzzy warm feeling of well-being I had when I was there last.

-- ex Spatula Man --
#49 by Gunp01nt
2002-04-16 18:06:39
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Martin:

well all things considered it's quite okay here. it's just that we might be very spoiled people and bitch about every little thing. :D

Don't you wanna seize the day?
I wanna go back to reality
But I'm just addicted to stay
Guide me the way out of infinity
#50 by Gunp01nt
2002-04-16 18:08:31
supersimon33@hotmail.com
addendum to #49:

by all means, do move to holland. just ignore the politics :)

Don't you wanna seize the day?
I wanna go back to reality
But I'm just addicted to stay
Guide me the way out of infinity
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