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The Tragedy of Comics
April 10th 2002, 14:30 MSD by m0nty Warren Spector of ION Storm was quoted from his Game Developer's Conference address in a recent PC topic as criticising the lack of mass market penetration by computer gaming as a whole, saying: "Games can become a mass medium, or they can be a medium like comics." Comics have a bad rap in the gaming industry, it seems, despite Freedom Force finally breaking the hoodoo which befell previous attempts at games based on the US superhero comic genre. The phrase "mouth-breathing dudes in 'Akira' T-shirts", from the infamous Salon article about E3 2001, encapsulates the disdain held by hardcore gamers for the archetypal male teenage comic consumer. So is Warren's analogy worthwhile? I think it is, but perhaps not for the obvious reasons. The history of comics as a genre in the US and Japan over the past century bears some scrutiny, for it contains many lessons and potential pitfalls for the computer gaming industry - and the similarities between the two are unmistakeable. It is perhaps unfair to compare the two genres, since comics have a history stretching back well into to the 19th century. The US comics scene, dominated by the superhero genre in book form, has already had its Golden Age (1938-45) and Silver Age (1950-55), plus a Bronze Age and a Platinum Age if some fanbois are to be believed. The debut of Superman just before WW2 perfected the template. (As an aside, it's easy to plot the similarity of game characters with comic heroes: names like Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon and Dick Tracy sound like they came right out of Scott Miller's marketing formula.) The major problems in the comic industry have come from censorship. The Hayes production code hit filmed cartoons in the 30s, removing gratuitous nudity and drug references amongst other sins. The first wave of attacks on printed comics came during the McCarthy era in the 40s and 50s, after a long period of agitation by a psychologist named Dr Fredric Wertham. Many of the superhero and horror comics were shut down, despite efforts by publishers to placate the community by setting up editorial boards. A Senate committee on organised crime investigated the link between comic books and juvenile delinquency, culminating in a draconian regulatory environment called the Comics Code which gutted the industry. The superheroes only re-emerged in the mid-50s to fight communism alongside the McCarthyists. Another round of censorship occurred in 1968 with the substitution of the Hayes code with a new MPAA scheme, which had the effect of taking a lot of much-loved Saturday morning superhero cartoons off the air, to be replaced with frippery like HR Pufnstuf and Josie and the Pussycats. Meanwhile, in Japan, comics are much more widely accepted, having evolved after WW2 as part of the redefinition of Japan's identity. Metropolis is perhaps the defining work of manga, the Japanese comic form which was made popular by titles such as Astro Boy, Kimba the White Lion, Galaxy Express 999, and of course Akira. Osamu Tezuka created the first three mentioned titles in comic book form and guided their translation into film versions, and the director of Metropolis, Rintaro, also directed GE999 amongst other anime (manga is the printed version, anime is the film version). Katsuhiro Otomo, creator of Akira, wrote the screenplay of the Metropolis movie, completing an imposing trio of manga legends, and the resulting film is extraordinary. The reviews for the film, made last year but only hitting Western territories this year (with DVD released this month), stand testimony to its artistic power and grandeur. Like the original black and white comic written in the late 1940s, it fuses the imagery and themes of the 1929 Fritz Lang silent film masterpiece with the fears and nightmares of post-war Japan to create an eerily prescient dystopian vision. Political references range from German Bauhaus industrialism to Hitlerian fascism, through to Japanese apocalyptic angst, and even resonances of the current war against terrorism. Visual styles are layered against each other, CGI complementing cel animation, and strains of the 1930s era jazz soundtrack are interspersed with Wagnerian climaxes during the frequent dazzling action scenes. Both US comics and Japanese manga are closely related to social themes, creating modern myths and addressing current political concerns. In comparison, there are few computer game titles which even aspire to approach the level of contemporary relevance, complexity and artistic merit of works such as Metropolis. Those which do, like Deus Ex and Anachronox, are stuck like all of their imitators in the Western mindset of the superhero, in which the ambivalence towards technological progress that is such a feature of manga is abandoned in favour of the myth of the All-American good guy whose powers only increase as he embraces technology. American comic books and graphic novels have become one of the main media to foster this myth, feeding off the pulp science fiction and Edisonades of the early 20th century, but games have not progressed far beyond this convention. If computer games are to grow to achieve the level of sophistication of manga, they will have to transcend the "game" and become works of art. This does not necessarily preclude gaming from reaching a mass audience: the gaming industry is diverse enough to pursue both goals at the same time. Manga itself has gained broad acceptance in Japan, and has had some export success. Arthouse-quality manga like Metropolis coexist with hentai tentacle rape pr0n. There is no reason why mature games which contain complex plots, contemporary themes and deep characterisations can not sit on the same shelves as cheap licence knock-offs like Barbie and Who Wants To Be A Millionaire. Are games ever going to grow up, or are the mouth-breathing fanbois going to remain the LCD forevermore? Are otakus just comic snobs? Are comics really mature, given the childish obsession with heroes in tight latex by US artists, and all the elfin doe-eyed schoolgirls who populate even the most serious manga and anime? Does it matter if most games don't cater to women, even though half of the gamer community is female? Is the current Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) scheme put in place by the ISDA enough to placate the radical censorship lobby, or will the next round of school shootings have more serious consequences for game content? Is Warren Spector just jealous of claimed sales numbers for The Sims? Who would win in a fight, Akira or Spiderman? |
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Topic: The Tragedy of Comics
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Amen #48 Sometimes it isn't just about who sells more games. Barbie Fashion Designer and The Sims sell a shitload of copies. His games are sometimes passable hits, but not big hits. Well at least he makes games, and doesn't just sit around on his ass talking about one game he made almost 10 years ago. |
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Irregardless, Scott McCloud is a jackass. i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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Doesn't take skill to make a clone. So true, and it only takes about 1-2 years to make one, too. ;-) Warren's games are certainly not clones, but that's a totally different subject. The subject I addressed was that Warren doesn't make mass-market games, and yet that's what his industry talk was about. Seems to make sense to me that if he thinks the industry will become like the comics industry unless we make mass-market games, he should focus on his own games first. Or does that make too much sense? In other words, I'd rather hear people like Sid Meier and Will Wright talk about this subject, as they have much more credibility on the subject. |
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So it takes your name on a game box to have credibility? So can I look forward to Scott Miller's Duke Nukem Forever? Just like John Romero's Daikatana? |
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I don't see that scott is wrong; Warren doesn't make main stream games. He isn't making a judgement on those games for pete's sake. Sheesh. But I don't see Warren saying, "We need more mainstream games - like mine," either. Irregardless, Scott McCloud is a jackass You are only saying that because he ain't Irish!!!! Will warez for food.
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I haven't managed to track down a copy of Warren's talk yet, but I'm betting it's more about describing his own failures and why they were failures, as opposed to talking about what would be good. |
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chris Also, I'd like to point out that Image was *at least* as guilty as Marvel in the "too many versions" issue... and their books cost more because of the better paper and coloring. Image was as guilty, and in many ways moreso, for the decline of the comics industry overall. That's a different issue than the decline of the speculators market. But we don't need to get into that. Xero I think Reinventing Comics was supposed to be a wakeup call to the comic industry much like Warren Ellis' frequent syphillitic rants on the state of the medium. Much like Reinventing Comics many of Warren Ellis' rants are based purely in fantasy. It doesn't help anyone when you point out a problem and propose unrealistic solutions. Hey, you have terminal cancer- well in 100 years they'll have an orbiting cancer space station that can cure it - so all you have to do is hold on... Funk. |
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Scott Mcloud's Zot was good stuff. |
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I left out the 'C' for Concise! |
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Chief? Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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Nova - You seem to be totally misunderstanding Scott, here. Or maybe he's just on your "antagonize, no matter what he says" list? At no point has he said that Warren Spector makes bad games, or that his game is better than Warren's, or anything else. He just said that if Warren is indicating that games need to become more mainstream, then Warren needs to take a look at his own game first, because they're anything but. Which is true. And it has nothing to do with "name on the box". It has to do with the fact that Sid Meier and Will Wright have made some of the most mainstream-embraced PC games ever (particularly Will Wright), so they have more credibility when it comes to talking about how to do it. Which is also true. None of this is a hit on Spector. To be honest, I will take a Spector game over a Meier game every single time... but his games aren't mainstream. That's all. Funkdrunk - agreed re: image. -chris |
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I heard Talon Brave was going to have four friends who could control Fire, Earth, Wind, and Water with their special rings. Is that true? Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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No, there he was able to control The Spinners and Gladys Night and the Pips, but him to control Earth Wind and Fire, he would need the +12 Robe of James Brown .....If You See Her Glow, It's Too Late!
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Cripes my English sucks today. Those last two sentences sound as I I've spent the last three months on an Indian reservation and their style of speaking rolled off onto me. Let me try that again.. No. He was able to control The Spinners and Gladys Night and the Pips, but for him to be able to control Earth, Wind and Fire, he would need the +12 Robe of James Brown! ...you can clap now! .....If You See Her Glow, It's Too Late!
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Gladys Knight. Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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"... sound as if I've spent..." -max
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m0nty, I really tried to tread through all of the topic and understand what you were talking about but I just couldn't do it. Does that mean that I have to wait before I can comment on it? -- Martin
"Killer of giants, threatens us all. Mountains of madness, standing so tall." - Ozzy |
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Dorkiest thread EVAR --jmc
ICQ-121684 AIM-jmcdavel U=FAG0T |
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JMcDaveL Dorkiest thread EVAR reported by someone posting on a gaming message board...... Funk. |
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Chris I think you missed my post (#56) I'm not trying to antagonize anyone, I just think that most likely people are misinterpreting the context of his talk. I haven't read it/ heard it though yet, can anyone provide a link? Most of Warren's writings tend to be about his own failures, rather than anything else, so I just think it's more likely that he's not telling everyone how to make a mainstream game, but telling them how not to make a mainstream game. I think, in that, he probably has just a tad of experience. |
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though yet. What horrible grammer! (yes, inentional mispelling. If I had good grammar, I wouldn't have bad grammer. Right?). Anyway, I only posted the previous, cause it sounds like a lot of people in this thread has no clue about what was actually said, except for what was in the topic. |
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was inentional intentional? Will warez for food.
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Fuck! |
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Nova: So it takes your name on a game box to have credibility? So can I look forward to Scott Miller's Duke Nukem Forever? never. duke nukem is the brand--you do not want to have anything diluting it or getting in the way of it. re: the article. Are games ever going to grow up, or are the mouth-breathing fanbois going to remain the LCD forevermore? comparing comics to games in this context is sort of... not tangential, but not the prime mover. comparing comics to games and using the hardcore as the example is kind of... backwards. comparing hardcore to hardcore and using comics and games as the examples would have been more on-focus. dunno. just doesn't ring true when i read it, though it rings true enough to be a valid article, i guess. the quoted sentence is fallacious, however. games cannot "grow up" because they are inanimate objects. today's word is "Ambivalent". - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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I would have thought that was the word of the decade. Will warez for food.
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And besides, "Scott Miller's Duke Nukem"...just makes Duke sound kind of like a kept man. "It's not stupid -- it's advanced!"
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Whatever. You could learn a lot from a dummy.
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I love your topic Caryn, and had been thinking about the exact same thing as I bought a crapload of used CD's. Post Caryn's topic now!! Will warez for food.
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Thanks, LP! I was originally going to post it in the warez thread but thought it just might be worth a separate topic. "It's not stupid -- it's advanced!"
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Caryn I voted for it. I second LP. Funk. |
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Irregardless, Scott McCloud is a jackass You are only saying that because he ain't Irish!!!! geez... is leslie on about the non-irish again? "I'm not sleeping with a junior high-schooler, I have a life sized doll that looks just like one."
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So while we wait for the topic to be posted, I have a question. When we buy a CD or a book, are we paying for the media, the content, or both (and in what ratio)? i like monkeys. are you a monkey?
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Can't it wait for the thread? I mean, that's how those other ones were dying off, they were discussed before the topic was posted. You people are working far too quickly for people to make topics! You're the new nazis.
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Ugh damn Chris I didn't know you smoked. I Feel sorry for you. Anyway as far as my favorite Creators past and present. Chris Clairmont's run on the xmen before the days of the Image influence were great stuff. Peter David's Run on Peter Parker Spectacular Spider-man Was great And his Hulk Run. Garth Ennis' PReacher. OF which I Am proud to say I own every single issue. Also loved his Hitman series which I own every single issue as well. Absolutely brilliant stuff. As far as the problem with deteriation of comics on the Marvel side.. Alot of it was based on marketing mistakes in my opinion their over-dependenceon mutant titles to the point they had like 6 mutant books.. and which sadly are begginning to do again. To many Companies make the mistake of over-selling and advertising comics that ARE huge to begin with and don't really need the hype. And they instead do not spend some of that profit on the newer less known titles to help them along. This is a perfect example and it mirror's what happens in the gaming business. This is why 3drealms has been outsourcing duke titles left and right to make sure that character stays known. They ownly have 1 known commodity. MAx payne is not their character. so I Don't consider it a new one they developed. Interestingly enough ... Id who folks swear don't branch out enough.. Have.. Doom. Quake and Wolfenstien. 3 seperate entities. It's nice to stay focused on one brand but at some point you gotta branch out. Look at Blizzard. They have 3 equally well-known universes they can play with. And this is the problem with tons of publishing firms in the pc gaming world. They will put out new product but they will only heavily advertise a chosen known few. Game's that names are so strong they really don't need the heavy hype. When a company changes this marketing tactic that company will become the biggest shop around. |
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deadlock: How is Dredd (also my childhood favourite) referring to the cold war?... I'd have thought it has more to do with fear of a facist state. -- ex Spatula Man --
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I love your topic Caryn, and had been thinking about the exact same thing as I bought a crapload of used CD's. Post Caryn's topic now!! Yes, we need another warez thread. Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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Back when I read about 15 different comicbooks a month (10-15 years ago) I remember that every month every series had a new issue. You may think this is obvious, but in my recent (short) encounters with the medium I have noticed that increased 'influence' by the creative team (the writers/pencillers/etc. usually own the characters these days) has turned their release schedule into a big mess. And to top it all, I was tempted into buying the first issue of a follow-up to one of my favourite comics of all time: DK2 by Frank Miller. DK2 is the follow-up to The Dark Knight Returns, Frank Miller's classic Batman tale from way back in 1986 orso. The first issue came out in time, so did the second, but the third and final issue is already several months late and it's nowhere to be seen on the release schedule of the publisher (DC Comics.) They probably should have called the story 'Batman Forever.' |
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Only comic I ever read was Richie Rich, and maybe a bit of whatever the heck is was called that had jughead in it. Good stuff for a dreamer. I think I was about the only person on the planet to buy them though, I've never come across anyone else who would admit to reading them. Still have a nice ten inch or so stack of them somewhere around here. © 1968-2002 Robert 'HoseWater" Lloyd
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Sentinel, those first two DK2's are great, but damn, the wait for the last one really sucks. Yes, we need another warez thread. It has little to do with warez, and more to do with media, and what copyright really means. Will warez for food.
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Matthew: I wasn't thinking in terms of warez - since selling used stuff is clearly legal - but more in terms of how changing distribution methods affect our concept of copyright and how maybe we need to rethink that. But I'll save it for the thread. "It's not stupid -- it's advanced!"
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Somebody give me a manga title with large breasted girls being tentacle raped that I can find on the donkey. No explanation needed, I'm sure. |
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I'm not a huge comic book fan and definately not a fan of superhero comics, but I've been completely unable to take Batman seriously since I saw Orca. Bad. Bob, Urotsukidoji perhaps. They're cute, they're cuddly and jam shoots out their heads. I want 'em all!
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Or this definately not safe for work link that has popups. They're cute, they're cuddly and jam shoots out their heads. I want 'em all!
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Waiting for the 3rd issue of the DK2 series shouldn't surprise anyone. The 3rd issue of the first series was months late as well. Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.
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All games are basically pong -> All threads are basically warez. Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
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Martin Davies: How is Dredd (also my childhood favourite) referring to the cold war?... I'd have thought it has more to do with fear of a facist state. A fascist state or a totalitarian state - in otherwords Communism. Plus, it fed off the whole nuclear war paranoia that was around at the time (remember the mutant infested wastelands ? What were they called again ?). Of course, there were other influences such as the general sense of despair that was prevalent in Britain at the time, both before and during the Thatcher era; hence the extremely dystopian future - in which human life was very expendable. I'm not saying that the cold-war was the only thing that influenced sci-fi/comic books but you would have to have balls like King Kong to totally rule it out :) Jafd! Warren! Stop bickering or I'll be forced to change your opinions manually!
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Well..except fascism, communism and totalitarianism are three different things. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't. I'd argue Judge Dredd was very much about a totalitarian state. I'd say it's thematic link to fascism was significantly weaker, and it's connection to communism or the cold war was weakest of all. |
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Anybody from France reading this? Is www.amazon.fr correct in that "L'Effroyable Imposture" is their #1 seller? (Translates as Appalling Fraud.) This is a link to the cover page of the book. Unless my french-fu is bad, that translates as "No plane crashed into the Pentagon." That is, this book claims the attack on the Pentagaon was a *hoax* AND the French are buying it? |
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HiredGoons: That is, this book claims the attack on the Pentagaon was a *hoax* AND the French are buying it? at least it's more creative than saying "We surrender!" again. - if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller |
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crash Yeah. I'm doing a little more net searching and it looks like it's the real deal. Apparently this clown thinks we faked the Pentagon thing. I was hoping my French was fucked up...maybe this thing is some kind of belated April Fools joke. If we were going to blow up something in our own country and kill innocent civilians, I'd think the Pentagon would be a lot farther down the list of targets. A few places behind the French Embassy. But, c'mon, if you're going to try and claim an event where people died was a hoax...at least pick something that people can't actually remember. This gives me a great idea: I'm going to write the next French best seller. I just need to pick out the right hoax. |
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