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EverQuest - The New Darwinism?
April 5th 2002, 04:35 CEST by Bezzy

Twenty-one years old, and your biggest worry in life is the bastard who befriended you for six months, then killed you and looted your corpse. And then you're resurrected, and the Elf-Magician whore won't give back the dough. It irks you so much, that there’s truly no way out!

That's right, folks. Another bi-monthly game related death/lawsuit is in the news, and this one is a peach:

A psychologist diagnosed him with depression and schizoid personality disorder, symptoms of which include a lack of desire for social relationships, little or no sex drive and a limited range of emotions in social settings.

"This fed right into the EverQuest playing," Woolley said. "It was the perfect escape."

and intriguingly enough...

"He thought the characters had come out of the game and were chasing him," Parker said. "He was running through his neighbourhood having hallucinations."

"EVERYONE! OUT OF MY WAY! RUN, LADY! I'M TRAINING ORCS!!!!!"

You have to wonder about a kid, killing his sweet young flabby self over a video game. Sure, there's something inherently wrong with this picture of a bright young technocrat offing himself, but there has to be a lot more going on here than the reaction to a video game, right? Right?

Or is EverQuest merely the net that catches society's emotion dregs? Is being PK'd by an online best-friend the 00's equivalent of freezing experiments in the Dachau? With its recent fee increase, is Sony Entertainment providing a public service by narrowing out and offing the most hard core lovers of derogatory game play?

"The manufacturer of EverQuest purposely made it in such a way that it is more intriguing to the addict," Parker said. "It could be created in a less addictive way, but (that) would be the difference between powdered cocaine and crack cocaine."

I say, let's applaud them, if not for culling our sons, then for giving the media something to create a fun and stupid frenzy over.
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Home » Topic: EverQuest - The New Darwinism?

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#1 by Charles
2002-04-05 04:48:43
www.bluh.org
No one ever wants to be responsible for their own actions!

Too bad!

Sony's fault?  My ass.

#2 by Foodbunny
2002-04-05 04:50:53
foodbunny@attbi.com http://www.foodbunny.com
I don't think anyone is claiming that this is Sony's fault, at least not yet.  She's sueing to get the records of what happened in game (did his character die, did his guild kick him out, that kinda thing) right before he killed himself.  She's not sueing for money.  I think it's a reasonable request, if I were in her position I'd want to know too.

"Our busts get bigger and bigger because they're bursting with great expectations for the future!  The he`t`nd p`rrhnn vd hnid in our chests is called life!"
#3 by Charles
2002-04-05 04:53:03
www.bluh.org
I was referring to this:

"The manufacturer of EverQuest purposely made it in such a way that it is more intriguing to the addict," Parker said. "It could be created in a less addictive way, but (that) would be the difference between powdered cocaine and crack cocaine."


#4 by Foodbunny
2002-04-05 04:58:29
foodbunny@attbi.com http://www.foodbunny.com
Meh, does anyone really dispute that EQ is addictive?  Or at least a very seductive trap for people with addictive personality traits?  I'm not saying that Verant has a social duty to make it so people don't want to play all the time.

"Our busts get bigger and bigger because they're bursting with great expectations for the future!  The he`t`nd p`rrhnn vd hnid in our chests is called life!"
#5 by Charles
2002-04-05 04:59:44
www.bluh.org
I mean, am I the only one who thinks this is pathetic?

"I've seen a lot of wreckage because of EverQuest," Parker said. "But they are all the same. It's like cigarettes. They need to come with a warning label. 'Warning, extensive playing could be hazardous to your health.' "

Warning labels are exactly what Jack Thompson, a Miami attorney and vocal critic of the entertainment industry, wants to result from a lawsuit he plans to file against Sony Online Entertainment for Elizabeth Woolley.

"We're trying to whack them with a verdict significantly large so that they, out of fiscal self-interest, will put warning labels on," he said. "We're trying to get them to act responsibly. They know this is an addictive game."

"I am sure we are going to find things akin to the tobacco industry memos where they say nicotine is addictive," he said. "There is a possibility of a class-action lawsuit."


Warning labels?  Give me a fucking break.  Comparing it to the tabacco industry is just stupid.  Prove to me that EverQuest, or any other shitty online game, is chemically addictive, then fine, you can compare it to big tobacco.

But I'm sorry, mental addictions?  Someone else's fault?  Next nerds around the world will be suing their favorite game developer because they are socially inept!

Sorry, but that kind of shit is no one's fault but your own.

#6 by Charles
2002-04-05 05:04:43
www.bluh.org
Oh, and by the way, the more people who kill themselves over this kind of silly shit, the better.  

So yes, it probably is the new darwinism.  And good riddance!~~~

#7 by "Rodzilla"
2002-04-05 05:06:00
rodzilla@seriouscommunity.com http://www.seriouscommunity.com
Hey look, I killed my 5 kids, but it's my doctors' faults, as it was them not doing something about my state of insanity that brought me to it.  Just because I did it doesn't mean I'm responsible for it, my doctors are!!

Der...here we go again.  Lets blame our own actions on other people.  Stupid morons.
#8 by Bailey
2002-04-05 05:21:53
Foodbunny

Meh, does anyone really dispute that EQ is addictive?  Or at least a very seductive trap for people with addictive personality traits?  I'm not saying that Verant has a social duty to make it so people don't want to play all the time.

Yeah, in a fashion. I think it takes a specific kind of addictive personality, because I walked away from the stupid game after three months without a regret. Compare that to my other varied addictive tendences, and it's as easy dropping a bad habit.

I would say, and this is based on nothing but opinion, that EQ is like a chat room, well, it is a chat room, but in that it has the same sort of draw to chat room addicts. People who are shy or function poorly socially can reinvent themselves in these games. I don't think it's so much addiction, as that tends to function on rewards, i.e. get drunk, get high, get rich, get pleasure. EQ doesn't have much in the way of real rewards unless you're an ebay farmer.

Apparently recession means pop-up windows.
#9 by Leslie Nassar
2002-04-05 05:59:24
http://departmentofinternets.com
Surely a "Warning: Addictive!" label would be a good thing on games?  Then, if a game containing the label turns out to be boring and not-at-all addictive, we can sue the Scott "Moneybags" Miller.

i like monkeys.  are you a monkey?
#10 by m0nty
2002-04-05 06:50:13
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
I think if EQ has a warning label, then discussion thread Web sites should have a warning.

"Welcome to PlanetCrap 6.0!  WARNING: MAY CAUSE CHOKING WHILE LAUGHING, WEIGHT GAIN, BRAIN DAMAGE, OFFENCE."
#11 by Foodbunny
2002-04-05 07:20:06
foodbunny@attbi.com http://www.foodbunny.com
I'd argue that Everquest's reward is the same as the chatroom addict's reward, reinventing yourself.  If you've got low self-esteem being able to be someone else is pretty rewarding.

I do think warning labels are a dumb idea.  It would be "WARNING! This game is so realistic you may kill yourself over it!  Extreme to the max, yo!"

"Our busts get bigger and bigger because they're bursting with great expectations for the future!  The he`t`nd p`rrhnn vd hnid in our chests is called life!"
#12 by Greg
2002-04-05 07:21:10
Bezzy, read the article a little closer. The guy who killed himself is not the same person as the one that had the hallucinations. Your article makes it sound like they are one in the same.

Greg

-Swallow it all and be glad, for a shilling I've paid and a shilling's worth I'll be having!
#13 by Greg
2002-04-05 07:25:49
Foodbunny:

She's not sueing for money.

No, but she is suing for warning labels to be affixed to every game about epilepsy warnings. Just looking through a couple new PC games' manuals, there is no warning about any possible risk of seizures. With console games, though, there is always a standard warning usually on the inside of the cover.

Actually seeing that there is no warning in PC game manuals, I wouldn't be all that upset companies were made to include the warning similar to console manuals.

Greg

-Swallow it all and be glad, for a shilling I've paid and a shilling's worth I'll be having!
#14 by Ashiran
2002-04-05 08:49:07
#0
Good riddance.

Bite me. No I'm serious, bite me.
#15 by Duality
2002-04-05 15:50:49
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
I just can't stand the idea that Sony/Verant/Whomever knowing and willfully created the game to be addictive.  And when I say addictive, I mean in the emotional / mental dependency sort of way.  Not the "its the best game evar" type of addictive.

You're the new nazis.
#16 by Martin
2002-04-05 17:08:32
http://www.mocol.nu
Duality: Yeah, what were they thinking when they did that?

-- Martin
Hunkalicious since 1972!
#17 by Duality
2002-04-05 18:20:25
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
Martin: I would assume that they're looking to make a good game.  Yah know, like most game developers would.

Can anyone honestly believe that Verant would have known that people would become as addicted to their game as the tobacco companies knew nicotine was addictive?

That's not to say that they would have changed the game mechanics or halted development if they had known it was going to be this addictive to people of a certain mindsest.  But I seriously doubt this even came to mind.

You're the new nazis.
#18 by Greg
2002-04-05 19:16:05
Duality:

Can anyone honestly believe that Verant would have known that people would become as addicted to their game as the tobacco companies knew nicotine was addictive?

I agree that Verant might not have known that their game would be so addictive to certain people, but they do now. When did tobacco companies know that nicotine was addictive? Back in the 1600s? The 1800s? The 1950s? Meaning that there was a point when people sold tobacco without contemplating if their product was addictive or not, because they simply didn't know.

Greg

-Swallow it all and be glad, for a shilling I've paid and a shilling's worth I'll be having!
#19 by None-1a
2002-04-05 19:21:52
Can anyone honestly believe that Verant would have known that people would become as addicted to their game as the tobacco companies knew nicotine was addictive?


Depends. The tabacco companies didn't know nicotine was addictive in the begining. They hid the reports that said it was, but they where already operating for quite a while once that happened. With Verant on the other hand reports had already be done on video games and online chat being addictive to some people. It could be argued that Verant should have made the connection from those reports and taken steps to minimize the chances of people becoming addicted before is ever started.
#20 by Matthew Gallant
2002-04-05 19:40:28
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
It could be argued that Verant should have made the connection from those reports and taken steps to minimize the chances of people becoming addicted before is ever started.


It could also be argued that Verant can't make the game less addictive, just like they can't make it run in less than 512MB of RAM.

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#21 by Duality
2002-04-05 19:45:38
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
Precisely.  They, in all likelyhood, didn't know it would be addictive.

Maybe they do need to put labels on the games.  Its my belief that refraining from playing games for 8-12 stints each day is a Bad Idea.  Then again, its also my belief that refraining from inhaling large quantities of smoke each day is a Bad Idea.

You're the new nazis.
#22 by Charles
2002-04-05 20:07:08
www.bluh.org
Mental addictions don't need warning labels.  

There can be no responsibility to the creator of a media for mental addiction, because it is something that isn't controlled by the creator.  

Oh wait, lets just slap warning labels on everything in the known universe.  Then we don't have to hear about fucking stupid shit like this.

#23 by jafd
2002-04-05 20:09:28
I don't believe in addiction.

I used to be a smoker. in the 20+ a day range. After eight years or so, I got tired of it. So, I stopped.

Yes, there were physical and mental withdrawal symptoms. *boo hoo*. There's this little thing called "persistence of will" that sufficed nicely in that regard.

I don't smoke now and I don't really want to smoke now. Very occaisionally, my mind burbles up the thought that "hey, a smoke sounds like a good idea right about now." At that point, I reach into my mind and slap the thought away. End of the incident.

Perhaps I'm just genetically superiour to most people. I doubt it, but I suppose it is possible. More likely, people who become "addicted" are merely "ignorant" and/or "stupid."

Putting warnings on GIPs is only likely to exacerbate the problem in some regards, while it would only help those few people who have already been told to stay away from games of this nature. I read the story, it didn't say anything about how this guy's condition was brought on due to the game.

"Shawn was playing 12 hours a day, and he wasn't supposed to because he was epileptic, and the game would cause seizures," she said.

If I'm allergic to strawberries, and I go to the ice cream shoppe to have strawberry ice cream, do I get to sue the ice cream shoppe because they didn't have a warning?

Well, that's the thing; I would get to sue them, becuase that's how the system works; any 'tard with the cash to hire a lawyer can sue anyone for anything. She'd probably be better off spending the money at Ye Olde Clue Shoppe, however...

She has a list of names her son scrawled while playing the game: "Phargun." "Occuler." "Cybernine." But Woolley is not sure if they are names of online friends, places he explored in the game or treasures his character may have captured in quests.

Memo to clueless mother: They're names of players. You could have gotten on Usenet and found that out, you didn't need to file a lawsuit. Or, you could log on with your son's account, or a new account, and (*hahhaha*) camp the /friend list spawn for them to arrive, then ask them questions semi-directly.

I can just see it now. "Yes, I'm filing a lawsuit against this company, because they won't tell me who I am supposed to blame."

You must be ^this^ tall to ride the rollercoaster.
#24 by Charles
2002-04-05 20:44:57
www.bluh.org
I agree on the addiction thing.

If your willpower isn't strong enough for you to get over something that will eventually kill you, then you are already suicidal, and offing yourself is a good thing.

More likely, people who become "addicted" are merely "ignorant" and/or "stupid."


Well, most people *are* stupid and ignorant.  So no surprise there.

#25 by LPMiller
2002-04-05 20:47:16
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
hey, did anyone see this yet? everquest suicide!

No one has seen it, right?

Will warez for food.
#26 by VeeSPIKE
2002-04-05 20:54:00
There can be no responsibility to the creator of a media for mental addiction, because it is something that isn't controlled by the creator.


You would think, yes, but that is not the way the world works.  In today's world, the creator can be liable if he does not take in to account the possibility (not the probability) that his creation might some day cause some person with serious mental issues to feel bad about themselves, and thereby drive them to do something incredibly stupid.


I don't believe in addiction.


Mental or physical? Because while I would somewhat agree with you that mental addictions are all in someone's head (for lack of a better phrase) physical addictions can and do exist. THe fact that you did not become significantly physically addicted to nicotine speaks more to your physical makeup, not the fact of the addiction itself. Nicotine is more of a mental addiction - you get used to the act and the ritual of smoking not necessarily the smoking itself.
#27 by jafd
2002-04-05 23:31:43
I agree there's a significant difference between "physical addiction" and "mental addiction."

However I feel the only practical difference lies in the steps one needs to take to avoid or free themselves of it. Both conditions spring from the same fountain; being ignorant and/or stupid. I mean, the easiest method to cure addiction is to not become addicted in the first place.

In that light, warning labels on GIPs make sense. Perhaps.

You must be ^this^ tall to ride the rollercoaster.
#28 by "Rodzilla"
2002-04-06 06:19:24
rodzilla@seriouscommunity.com http://www.seriouscommunity.com
Ok guys, listen.  There's a difference between tobacco and online games.  Tobacco contains nicotine, loads of it, which the body becomes chemically dependant on.  Video Games do not contain any chemicals that get into your body at all(duh).  Games cannot be labeled as addictive.  That's just like saying collecting baseball cards is addictive, or being with friends is addictive.  It's stupid!  Companies cannot be held repsonsible if people become attached to their product when the company had no involvement in their so-called addiction at all.
#29 by Charles
2002-04-06 11:36:28
www.bluh.org
You would think, yes, but that is not the way the world works.  In today's world, the creator can be liable if he does not take in to account the possibility (not the probability) that his creation might some day cause some person with serious mental issues to feel bad about themselves, and thereby drive them to do something incredibly stupid.


You are talking about an endless pit of warning labels!

Geebuz!  I mean, maybe we should label bottled water as "warning! Drowning hazard!"

Or label books "Warning!  May be used for a bludgeoning death!"

You are talking about labelling everything for every single possibility.  

How about this?  I propose that everything on earth be labelled "Warning! Use at own risk!"  Then people could shut the fuck up.

#30 by jafd
2002-04-06 12:51:28
Let's save time. Let's label everything: "Shut the fuck up."

You must be ^this^ tall to ride the rollercoaster.
#31 by Gunp01nt
2002-04-06 14:15:08
supersimon33@hotmail.com
No, a big fat ass label saying: "DO NOT PLAY THIS GAME" will do.

That way companies can say: "hey we told them not to play it but they did. it's not our fault."

"I'm not sleeping with a junior high-schooler, I have a life sized doll that looks just like one."
#32 by Greg
2002-04-06 18:00:23
Just FYI, the Dungeon Siege manual has the epilepsy warning on the inside front cover.

Greg

-Swallow it all and be glad, for a shilling I've paid and a shilling's worth I'll be having!
#33 by BobJustBob
2002-04-06 18:59:01
Isn't every good game addictive? That "just one more hour" feel that's always being referred to? If addictive games cause suicides, then where are all the people who killed themselves over Civ 2?
#34 by JMCDaveL
2002-04-06 21:18:32
Just wait until Star Wars Galaxies comes out.

Two geek worlds collide.

--jmc
ICQ-121684 AIM-jmcdavel U=FAG0T
#35 by Duality
2002-04-06 21:42:59
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
SWG is going to open up so many new dynamics.  For instance, there is a higher chance of Star Wars geeks being able to meet actual females.

You're the new nazis.
#36 by Dumdeedum
2002-04-06 22:27:09
http://www.dumdeedum.com
But what if I get a paper cut from the warning label, who do I sue then?

Plumsies Taker!
#37 by VeeSPIKE
2002-04-06 22:36:46
You are talking about an endless pit of warning labels!


Nope. I'm talking about an endless parade of muckraking bottom-feeders and their clients trying to create a world where nobody is responsible for their own actions. Current case in point - the mother is suing Sony to find out what her son did in the last few days playing so that she can drum up a case to Sue Sony and some list of individuals as the primary cause in her son's death. Note that she knew her son was twisted too tight and was ready to go anyway and she did nothing about that. She wants Sony to be responsible for his death. She does not want to be held responsible for her negligence and she found (probably wasn't hard - most likely they found her) a lawyer willing to back her up.

And this kind of garbage is happening pretty much every day. Somebody does something stupid, and then claims it was somebody else's fault. Can't drive with a cup between your thighs - McDonalds fault, it was too hot. Drowned 5 children in cold blood - it was the childrens fault, they drove her nuts. Smoked 6 packs a day for fifty years, and got cancer - RJ Reynolds fault, they made me do it.

And your point about warning labels is pretty much already here. There are not too many products these days that do not have some warning on them about something

No, a big fat ass label saying: "DO NOT PLAY THIS GAME" will do.

That way companies can say: "hey we told them not to play it but they did. it's not our fault."


Nope - some knob will come along eventually and claim that they should have known that somebody would ignore the label, and the company should have done more to prevent {insert insane act here.} And actually has already happened - see the tobacco industry. And if you are curious about who is next on the list, see Big Fat. You're gonna have a lawsuit about potato chips giving some loon a heart attack before too long - mark my words.
#38 by Gunp01nt
2002-04-06 22:39:13
supersimon33@hotmail.com
WARNING! entering this hardcore porn bukkake site may cause severe hand and wrist injury!

"I'm not sleeping with a junior high-schooler, I have a life sized doll that looks just like one."
#39 by _Fury_
2002-04-06 23:05:21
ajhill@wi.rr.com
Links?

Witty Quote
#40 by jafd
2002-04-06 23:08:21
I think the madness is due to stop soon, actually.

Okay, for one thing: the coffee was too hot.

For another, the tobacco companies were aware of the nature of their product, and deliberately hid this information from their buying public, the memos prove this.

As for the five children... eh, that was a pretty specious example. Last I heard, though, the husband was being investigated for his role; which makes perfect sense to me, their doctor told them not to have any more children, yet by his own admission, they "wanted to have more." I guess with names like Noah, John, and Mary, that wasn't enough; they wanted to collect the whole set.

What concerns me is not the rumbling build up of talk about fat people suing the junk food industry; I don't think that's going to fly. Wait for the afro-american reparation lawsuits to build up a head of steam, that's going to be an utter nightmare.


Is Dungeon Siege the first PC game to have an epilepsy warning on the box? That'd be interesting. Never mind the fact that GIPs need a whole 'nother warning on them as well; one that I can't see coming about any time soon. What's it going to say? "WARNING: YOU'RE NOT GOING TO WANT TO STOP PLAYING." Hell, they may as well already put that in boldface in the magazine ads.

You must be ^this^ tall to ride the rollercoaster.
#41 by Caryn
2002-04-06 23:18:12
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
Okay, for one thing: the coffee was too hot.


"And that's when Caryn just snapped, your Honor."

"It's not stupid -- it's advanced!"
#42 by VeeSPIKE
2002-04-06 23:57:10
Okay, for one thing: the coffee was too hot.


not relevant to my point. Whether or not the coffee was hot has nothing to do with the fact that she failed to devote full time and attention to her driving by sitting a cup full of coffee between her thighs. This is called "Accident waiting to happen." Had she pulled over or gone inside to drink the coffee, she would have been fine. But instead, she tried to multitask her driving program and it suffered a fatal error. Not McDonalds fault.


For another, the tobacco companies were aware of the nature of their product, and deliberately hid this information from their buying public, the memos prove this.


And since the Sixties, cigarettes and other tobacco products have had labels on them that basically say "If you engage in this activity, you might get sick and die." To me, if you decide to pursue the activity after that point, anything that happens is your fault. But, as recent lawsuits have proven, this is not the case. At least not in the minds of a small groups of people that are supposd to be my 'peers' (how low have we become?)

Specious? Yeah maybe, but it came to mind so I took it. And as for them pursuing the father; should it happen - yes. Will it happen - probably not, or at least not to the extent that it should. He is trying to make a case against the insurance company that took her off meds, and has a built-in deflect there.

Reparations will fall. It is un-Constitutional for one thing.
#43 by None-1a
2002-04-06 23:58:16
For another, the tobacco companies were aware of the nature of their product, and deliberately hid this information from their buying public, the memos prove this.


I'd buy that line of thought if there where more cases where the person was told to fuck off because they started after '66 (the year of the Surgeon General's first report on it). I only know of a single case where that happened, and even then I have no idea what happened to it on appeal.
#44 by Foodbunny
2002-04-07 00:06:49
foodbunny@attbi.com http://www.foodbunny.com
The injured (burned) plaintiff in this case, 79 year old Stella Lieback, was not driving her car. She was seated as the passenger in her grandson's parked car, holding the coffee cup between her legs while removing the plastic lid. The cup tipped over and poured the scalding hot coffee into her lap causing third degree burns.


No one drinks coffee hot enough to cause 2nd or 3rd degree burns and the resturant had previously been warned to stop serving it so hot.

"Our busts get bigger and bigger because they're bursting with great expectations for the future!  The he`t`nd p`rrhnn vd hnid in our chests is called life!"
#45 by Bezzy
2002-04-07 00:17:39
painberry@hotmail.com http://www.antifactory.org
Maybe it had a hint of cinammon?

Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
#46 by Bezzy
2002-04-07 00:18:29
painberry@hotmail.com http://www.antifactory.org
Cos lemme tell ya, you'll KNOW when that stuff hits your crotch.

Sick and tired and not impressed with shoehorning art into a profitable industry.
#47 by Matthew Gallant
2002-04-07 00:58:13
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
Please, take it to hot.coffee.discussion.again.planetcrap.com

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#48 by jafd
2002-04-07 01:32:59
with the fact that she failed to devote full time and attention to her driving by sitting a cup full of coffee between her thighs.

Er, except she was the passenger, not the driver. IIRC. *bzzzzt* thanks for playing.

Many, many lawsuits are frivolous. Are the issues surrounding them? Not nearly so much. Near-boiling point beverages shouldn't be served, mentally ill people shouldn't have children, or be allowed to sit alone in a room and beat the shit out of a Skinner box over and over and over, et cetera.

You must be ^this^ tall to ride the rollercoaster.
#49 by Caryn
2002-04-07 01:50:59
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
Would anyone else like to borrow this gun when I'm through? Anyone at all? Five bullets, no waiting...

"It's not stupid -- it's advanced!"
#50 by Greg
2002-04-07 01:53:54
Jafd, I think the reason Dungeon Siege has the warning may stem from Microsoft publishing the game. They already are putting it in for the XBox games, its a no-brainer to do so for PC games.

Greg

-Swallow it all and be glad, for a shilling I've paid and a shilling's worth I'll be having!
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