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Single-Multiplayer, Multi-Singleplayer, Or Why Tribes is the Best Multiplayer Game Ever.
March 22nd 2002, 22:06 CET by Nova Z

People rant and complain when a game is single player only (read: Unreal 2), and everyone wants multiplayer.  However, more often than not, a game that does both single player and multiplayer will at best have crappy multiplayer, and at worst, fail on both counts.  Every time I see people say "I'm not going to buy it, cause it doesn't have multiplayer", I can't help but shake my head.  

Enter Unreal Tournament 2(003), and the host of other multiplayer only games.  Games that arguably don't lose anything from lack of single player.  However, I can't help but think that these games fail to embrace change.  Not to say they are bad, I've had tons o' fun with plain vanilla UT CTF.  Games(mods) like counter-strike do add a lot to the FPS genre, however, I can't avoid thinking of them as a bunch of single player games running around playing independantly of the whole 'multiplayer' thing.  Single-multiplayer, instead of multiplayer.  Not to mention the shouting of non-sensical obscenities like 'butt ass shit bitch ass', but that's another rant all together.

It's like no thought really goes in to multiplayer, and what makes cooperation fun.  There is no reason for random joe to cooperate with anyone else in most multiplayer FPS games, because there is very little return on basic cooperation.  More often than not, everyone is just a jackass who wants the highest kill count.

But then we have Tribes.  A game where it is impossible to win without teamwork.  There are things that must be done in order to win, and one person alone can rarely do those things all himself.  You must keep your defenses up, you must lower the enemy's defenses, and then you have to use a coordinated strike to try and achieve the objective.  Any team with a slight amount of teamwork will completely trash a team with none.  This becomes apparent early when you play tribes, and because of that, people tend to work together more.  There is more of a real multiplayer experience to be had.

But then we have the missing genre:  Multi-Singleplayer.  While there are games that have done this somewhat, I have yet to see a game that really does it right.  Baldur's Gate, and the sequels and offshoots did it somewhat, and System Shock 2 has it.  And I've heard that serious sam has it.  Cooperative mode for the single player campaign.  I can picture this as being an absolute gold mine.  As a quick example, think of being able to burn through all of Medal of Honor with a few other players (your squad).  That would just be mind blowing if it was done right.  Instead, we have a bunch of one shot multiplayer maps that only capture a very small part of that experience.

So my question is, where's the innovation in the multiplayer experience?  Seems right now it's limited to a very basic form of multiplayer and cooperation.  What's the limiting factor?  Is it just developer laziness?  Lack of people willing to break the mold?

And whatever happened to planetside?
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Home » Topic: Single-Multiplayer, Multi-Singleplayer, Or Why Tribes is the Best Multiplayer Game Ever.

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#1 by LPMiller
2002-03-22 22:07:36
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
First!

God, this is lame.

The Suns rays are made up of many atoms.
#2 by LPMiller
2002-03-22 22:07:47
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Not the topic.

The Suns rays are made up of many atoms.
#3 by LPMiller
2002-03-22 22:08:05
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Well no, it is in fact a little lame.

The Suns rays are made up of many atoms.
#4 by Tom "Vandal" Ohle
2002-03-22 22:08:36
tom@bioware.com http://www.gamersclick.com
second?

-----------------------------------------
Communications Associate - BioWare Corp.
Site Manager - GamersClick.com
#5 by LPMiller
2002-03-22 22:09:41
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
I mean, Multi-Singleplayer.  Yeah ok, go play Contra then.  Or Gauntlet. Because that's all it is, and it really sucks when your idiot brother insists on going left and trapping you in the corner of the map.

The Suns rays are made up of many atoms.
#6 by LPMiller
2002-03-22 22:10:37
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Not even close, Vandal.

I.

L33t.

The Suns rays are made up of many atoms.
#7 by Tom "Vandal" Ohle
2002-03-22 22:10:46
tom@bioware.com http://www.gamersclick.com
From what I've seen of UT 2003, it looks pretty damn swank. Hopefully I'll be able to make my way down to Infogrames sometime soon to actually check it out. At the root of this debate, I suppose, is whether Tribes really is the best MP game ever. I'd have to disagree. Quake 3 Arena kept my attention for so much longer--there may not be as many ways to play, but it's just so much more action-packed.

-----------------------------------------
Communications Associate - BioWare Corp.
Site Manager - GamersClick.com
#8 by LPMiller
2002-03-22 22:11:19
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
And. Seriously. Bored. Feh.

The Suns rays are made up of many atoms.
#9 by Leslie Nassar
2002-03-22 22:11:44
http://departmentofinternets.com
... or Silkworm.

i like monkeys.  are you a monkey?
#10 by LPMiller
2002-03-22 22:12:47
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
See, I always prefered UT to Quake 3...just felt better.  Tribes 2 would have been so much better except for the assholes that insisted on playing it, with zero tolerence for noobs.

The Suns rays are made up of many atoms.
#11 by Shadarr
2002-03-22 22:13:52
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
I think, like anything else, you can either be okay at everything or really good at one thing.  For example, Total Annihilation has possibly the worst single-player campaign ever in a mainstream RTS, but the multiplayer (especially with 3rd party units) rocked, and people still play it.  So while I'd love to see more multi-single player games, I don't want it at the expense of the straight single-player experience.  I only play multi-player once or twice a week because it's hard to find a time that works.  Getting more than two people together cuts it down to every other week at best.  If you can't really enjoy a game with less than X players, I probably wouldn't bother with it.
#12 by "madmax"
2002-03-22 22:15:10
But it's not like Gauntlet or Contra. It's playing MOH online or network. But instead of fighting human opponents, you and your buds are playing through the single-player campaign.

Halo co-op is a lotta fun, other co-op games would be too. Especially if you didn't have to share a screen with other players.
#13 by Tom "Vandal" Ohle
2002-03-22 22:15:48
tom@bioware.com http://www.gamersclick.com
That's why Unreal 2 and Unreal Warfare are getting me pretty damn excited. Warfare just looks phenomenal, and the U2 stuff I've seen looks pretty sweet, too. We'll see if the id guys can top it with Doom3.

-----------------------------------------
Communications Associate - BioWare Corp.
Site Manager - GamersClick.com
#14 by Charles
2002-03-22 22:16:30
www.bluh.org
From what I've seen of UT 2003, it looks pretty damn swank.


Yeah, but will it be?  I dunno.  I haven't really heard anything that differentiates it from UT other than a spiffy graphics update.

#15 by Gunp01nt
2002-03-22 22:17:26
supersimon33@hotmail.com
sigh... fanbwoi topic! outta sight!

Asking WHY TRIBES IS THE BEST MP GAME EVARR is asking for an EOD after 13 posts!


EOD!

"I'm not sleeping with a junior high-schooler, I have a life sized doll that looks just like one."
#16 by Bailey
2002-03-22 22:19:17
LP baby, you got issues.

Don't got time for shame.
#17 by Charles
2002-03-22 22:23:50
www.bluh.org
sigh... fanbwoi topic! outta sight!

Asking WHY TRIBES IS THE BEST MP GAME EVARR is asking for an EOD after 13 posts!


EOD!


Did you see a question mark on that sentence?

No you didn't.  Because I didn't put one there.

#18 by Gunp01nt
2002-03-22 22:27:49
supersimon33@hotmail.com
OK then... Tribes is not the best MP game ever because it lacks the most important thing: enough non-lamer players.

In this 99% lamer market, the best MP games are the ones that cater to the lamer market.

sad but true.

"I'm not sleeping with a junior high-schooler, I have a life sized doll that looks just like one."
#19 by EvilAsh
2002-03-22 22:33:11
evilash@eviladam.com www.eviladam.com
Let's see.. can a game have good mp and singple player? HELL YES it can.

Look at Dungeon Siege which is  being released in 2 weeks.

The Single player campaign has over 50 hours of gameplay.
The Mp World is 3 times the size of the sp game.

So yes it can be done.

Unreal2 for example was going to have a very SWEEt multi-class mp game. Which was going to combine the weapons and monsters from the sp game and vehicles and static defense units into a multi-class mp team game.

Many folks WERE totally pumped for the last year or so because of this mp for Unreal2.
Till Epic pushed for Legend to dump it.
UT2003 is Unreal Championship spit-shined for the pc. Not bloody exciting.


My problem with a FPS action game not having mp is simple.. AFter you beat the game. its over.
that's it no intrinsic replay value. With Mp for a fps comes also add-ons.. A large community that keeps producing amazing content for the game.

Not to mention Unreal2 Shits allover UT2003 in terms of graphics and ai. There was a whole lot more original being offered in U2. Then there is in UT2003.

Name one FPS action shooter without mp that has sold well.

You can't it doesn't exist.
#20 by Bailey
2002-03-22 22:36:34
It's kind of interesting how when people talk about that 99% of lamers out there, they assume themselves to be in the 1%. Now, I don't hack or whine or cry 'ch34tz0r' every time I get ganked, but I freely admit that to some of the people I played, they probably considered me a prime candidate for the 99%.

Don't got time for shame.
#21 by Bailey
2002-03-22 22:39:38
Evilash

I can't even begin to point out how many of those comments you just made indicate a severe case of downs syndrome.

Don't got time for shame.
#22 by Greg
2002-03-22 22:40:12
Bailey, you don't have a good enough connection to be in the 99%

Greg

-Swallow it all and be glad, for a shilling I've paid and a shilling's worth I'll be having!
#23 by Bailey
2002-03-22 22:42:50
Connection as in this fat cable modem? I am teh lpb.

Don't got time for shame.
#24 by jafd
2002-03-22 22:43:09
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1000033180
There is no "I" in "jafd." Nevertheless, I loathe nearly every multplayer team game.

I just want to kill everybody. Or, in the case of Diplomacy or Settlers of Catan or Advanced Civilization, be able to ally, yet reserve the right to spin around and plant a knife tree.

But then we have Tribes.  A game where it is impossible to win without teamwork.

Oh, well then. But what if one's definition of "winning" is "causing grief"? I suppose, every modern game has kickvoting, right?

At any rate, until cheating/hacking/assholes is/are dealt with a bit more comprehensively than it/they is/are at this point, I don't know that online play is at all viable in any significant sense. Sure, I guess it is possible to get online and tool around with your friends, but... whatever. I want to stroll down to the center of the global village, meet a few strangers, and be able to game with them, without having to deal with all the uppity shit that surrounds such an endeavor at this point.

BTW, was Tribes 2 better at anything than kicking one in the jimmy?

The only thing about the law that I have forgotten is my faith in it.
#25 by Greg
2002-03-22 22:44:11
Bailey, it never seems like it :)

Greg

-Swallow it all and be glad, for a shilling I've paid and a shilling's worth I'll be having!
#26 by Bailey
2002-03-22 22:46:09
Oh, you mean Q3A? That's the donkey, I have an average of 600-1000 connections going at once.

Don't got time for shame.
#27 by Warren Marshall
2002-03-22 22:50:18
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
EvilAsh
Unreal2 for example was going to have a very SWEEt multi-class mp game. Which was going to combine the weapons and monsters from the sp game and vehicles and static defense units into a multi-class mp team game.

Many folks WERE totally pumped for the last year or so because of this mp for Unreal2.
Till Epic pushed for Legend to dump it.
UT2003 is Unreal Championship spit-shined for the pc. Not bloody exciting.

Please take the microphone away from your ass.  Thank you.

I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
#28 by jafd
2002-03-22 22:56:57
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1000033180
I certainly don't know anything about the circumstances, but for certain, it doesn't make much sense for Unreal2 w/multiplayer to be on the market at the same time as Unreal Tournament.

Seems like evolution in action. In the past, sure, you'd get an AAA title with SP and MP. Now, you get two titles, each with their own focus. What's not to like about that? (Aside from the obvious.)

Incidentally... WTF is an AAAA title? w-t-f-E.

The only thing about the law that I have forgotten is my faith in it.
#29 by JMCDaveL
2002-03-22 22:59:17
EvilAsh:
"Name one FPS action shooter without mp that has sold well."


Max Payne.

You are officially my bitch now.

--jmc
#30 by Bailey
2002-03-22 23:00:18
"AAAARGH, this game was overhyped, I want my money back!"

Don't got time for shame.
#31 by EvilAsh
2002-03-22 23:08:34
evilash@eviladam.com www.eviladam.com
MAx payne is a .. THIRD PERSON ACTION SHOOTer. Damn idjit.

God I Was was waiting for the first moron to mention. You sir Get the I Am Blind as a Fruit BAt award.

Nice Try. Next.
#32 by Matthew Gallant
2002-03-22 23:08:38
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
Name one FPS action shooter without mp that has sold well.


Max Payne.


The Sims!

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#33 by Greg
2002-03-22 23:09:54
EvilAsh:

Name one FPS action shooter without mp that has sold well.


DEER HUNTER! That is all, thank you.

Greg

-Swallow it all and be glad, for a shilling I've paid and a shilling's worth I'll be having!
#34 by EvilAsh
2002-03-22 23:11:05
evilash@eviladam.com www.eviladam.com
Lol Deer hunter.
#35 by Charles
2002-03-22 23:11:26
www.bluh.org
Evil Ash, it remains to be seen if dungeon siege will succeed on that front.

Not only that, but you seem to be quoting everything you've been told as law.

Not to mention Unreal2 Shits allover UT2003 in terms of graphics and ai. There was a whole lot more original being offered in U2. Then there is in UT2003.


AI?  How on earth can you know that until you play it?  Do the screenshots tell you how good the AI is?  Not likely.  As for graphics, have you seen that leaked UT2003 video?  That looks way better than anything I've seen of unreal 2.

I've pretty much quit hyping a game without having seen it first.  With the exception of Deus Ex 2.  But I offer no reasons for what I say about that game.  I just trust in Warren Spector et al to deliver.  I'm not comparing DX2 to anything else, or claiming it will be better than X.  I just believe that I will thoroughly enjoy the game.

I quit believing what previews and sneak peeks tell me.  They almost always lie.  I wait for first hand accounts, or preferably, a demo, so I can judge for myself.

But my point is, you can't say something is better than something else until they've both been played.  Doing so is just stupid.

#36 by EvilAsh
2002-03-22 23:11:33
evilash@eviladam.com www.eviladam.com
Yeah there is a massive Deer hunter community. hehe
#37 by Greg
2002-03-22 23:16:37
Why would there be a massive Deer Hunter community if there isnt any multiplayer?

Greg

-Swallow it all and be glad, for a shilling I've paid and a shilling's worth I'll be having!
#38 by Leslie Nassar
2002-03-22 23:22:52
http://departmentofinternets.com
If the massive Deer Hunter community was like other other games' massive communities, then Deer Hunter is better off without it.

Fuck "gamer communities".  Fuck them all.

i like monkeys.  are you a monkey?
#39 by Duality
2002-03-22 23:25:13
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
Tribes 2 can kick a lot of stuff ... as long as the framerate stays up.
Stupid 25fps with everything turned up on a GF3Ti500.

At the risk of saying something smattering of downs syndrome -- that engine was fucked up.  How is it I can't use near-best graphics settings on the latest and greatest video card (at the time) on a 1GHz machine w/ 512MB of RAM and still only get 25 frames per second?

Hah!
#40 by Duality
2002-03-22 23:29:50
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
Except Deer Hunter has multiplayer.

Hah!
#41 by Max
2002-03-22 23:31:10
http://massivebraincase.org/
I just ate a french pastry called "pain au chocolat".  Now THAT is a recipe for success.

-max
#42 by Darkseid-D
2002-03-22 23:32:21
rogerboal@hotmail.com
psst

Digital extremes is doing Unreal 2003, not epic


just so you dont look like more of a twit.




and tribes 2 had very little going for it in multiplayer, far too many lamer tactics in it, far too many script exploits, too many l33t fuckwits who could ski for miles, too many griefers who thought it funny to mine their own booths with team damage on.

no more lamers than say Counter Strike, but far far far far far far fewer servers and players, so more assholes per head.


the original TF is still one of the pinacles of multiplayer gaming out there, team work was necessary to succeed.

Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
#43 by Duality
2002-03-22 23:32:51
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
That makes me think "Chocolate pains" ....

Nevermind, I already did one poop joke in the other thread.  Damn, this would have been much more suitable, too.

Hah!
#44 by Gunp01nt
2002-03-22 23:34:11
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Duality:
yeah and that engine also seemed barely able to perform character & terrain lighting.. first time I saw it everything looked so damn flat... tribes2 can be an awful lot of fun to play.. but it does depend on who you're playing it with.

example: I once played a LAN T2 game with a buncha friends. we played gauntlet, and my team started inside the hangar-thingy  where you could buy vehicles.
One teammate thought he was funny and bought one of those troop carrier airplanes and flew it towards the entrance of the hangar, which is barely big enough to let one of those troop planes through. He parked the plane sideways across the entrance, in such a way that none of us could get inside it to fly it out of there. we were stuck there until we shot the goddamn thing, which took a long time.

"I'm not sleeping with a junior high-schooler, I have a life sized doll that looks just like one."
#45 by Duality
2002-03-22 23:34:27
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
I've said it many times in the past.  I'm convinced the gaming communities have just not matured enough for fully-cooperative, competitive multiplayer gaming.

I say they should check back in 10yrs or so.

Hah!
#46 by Duality
2002-03-22 23:37:26
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
Gun: Yeah T2 had the potential to be one of the greatest MP action games, IMO.  I even felt that it was almost designed as a sport-like competition (another debate, I know).

There's this bar in town called micro.bar that has 2 (shitty) PCs set up with projectors playing T2.  Too bad it was LAN only and against the bots.  But I still felt cool trying to impress my sis-in-law's friend with my skillz. :P

Hah!
#47 by Bailey
2002-03-22 23:39:13
Duality

I say they should check back in 10yrs or so.

Just in time for the next generation of fucktards!

Don't got time for shame.
#48 by crash
2002-03-22 23:54:30
Nova Z, from topic:

What's the limiting factor?  Is it just developer laziness?  Lack of people willing to break the mold?

nope. you're looking the wrong way, Nova. know why co-op hasn't taken off? here, let me bold and indent it for you:
because people, by and large, fucking suck.

can't believe you overlooked this. a co-op game can only be as good as your teammates, and let's face it--the largest percentage of the online gaming scene on open servers are assholes. cheating, swearing, anti-social dweebs that think TKing is high comedy and that fucking your friends over is some kind of sign of superiority.

tell you what. spend 8 hours on random servers in tribes games, and you can only pick the servers that have friendly fire "on". if you can find one. know why you can't find 'em?
because people, by and large, fucking suck.

and for the ones that don't, they're already playing co-op. in closed games, in private games, on LANs, with friends and enemies that they know and trust. they're playing MW4, Rogue Spear, Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, etc etc. they're making up their own rules for the games, and they know everyone, and everyone has enough decency to abide by victory conditions, not lie about what they're doing and have done, and have a lot of fun doing it.

why would they want more co-op in games? there's plenty of co-op play in games right now, thank you very much.

EvilAsh:

Look at Dungeon Siege which is  being released in 2 weeks.

The Single player campaign has over 50 hours of gameplay.
The Mp World is 3 times the size of the sp game.

thank you miss cleo. finished the game already? oh, wait, sorry--you're just talking out your ass. again. never mind.

EvilAsh:

Name one FPS action shooter without mp that has sold well.

Wolfenstein 3D. next?

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#49 by Russ
2002-03-23 00:36:41
People suck. Hmmm. Okay, but what can developers do about that? Nothing, unless there's some kind of subliminal behavior modification software out there I've never heard of. Isn't the trick to make real, meaningful consequences to anti-team behavior? Do they need to develop an online police state to keep people in line? How fun is that? Most importantly, what would that do to sales? If 99% of online players are grief players, the game companies will keep selling them what they want. I think that the only team games worth playing will continue to be amongst people who already know each other on a LAN. I still hold out hope for the subliminal behavior modification thing, though. Make it happen, Mr. Smart.
#50 by crash
2002-03-23 00:41:52
just respondin to the topic, Russ. don't think there's a fix for broken people, but expecting/asking devs to make games that will make people not suck so the games'll be fun doesn't make much sense to me.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
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