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Qualification: Black Woman
May 23rd 2000, 08:48 CEST by andy

For a while now I've been wanting to write about race and gender issues in the games industry, but I've never found an interesting angle to approach it from.



What is there to say? Any prejudice about a person's colour or sex is ridiculous, end of story. You can't make an argument against that, so there's no need to start a discussion about it.

While doing my regular patrol around the news sites this morning, I spotted a BBC report about the EMMA's - the Ethnic Minority Media Awards. It's an annual awards ceremony to "celebrate the contribution of blacks and Asians" in the UK's media community.

I've always had an uneasy feeling about this sort of "black-only" award, or any other part of culture that uses so-called positive discrimination.

Suppose I'd made a noteworthy contribution to the UK media - could I win an EMMA? No, because I'm white. Why is it okay to refuse me an award because I'm white, but it would never be okay to refuse someone a different award because they were black?

The arguments for and against positive discrimination are as old as the hills so there's no need for me to travel that well-worn route, but the BBC story about the Emmas included a quote that greatly reinforced my own view.

Jim Latham, the course leader on the University of Westminster's postgraduate diploma in journalism, discussing how the majority of editors on mainstream newspapers reject positive action policies, comments:

The editors will say: 'Colour means nothing to me, I'm just looking for good reporters.' All that means is that he will have no black or Asian journalists.

Now, if I had ten positions open at my company, and I received a thousand applications, I'd give the jobs to the ten best people. If ten of the applicants were white and the other 9,990 were black, and it turned out that the ten white people were the best, they'd get the job.

But what Jim Latham appears to be saying, and I don't see how it can be taken any other way, is that a number of positions should go to black or Asian people, even if a white person is more suitable for the job.

Isn't that just a little patronising to black and Asian people? Why should they get a job based solely on the colour of their skin? Shouldn't they have to earn the job in the same way that a white person would?

Getting back to the games industry, the bias is obviously towards white males. This almost certainly isn't due to any prejudice, it's just the way things have turned out. Da nature of da beast, be-atch.

Off the top of my head I could name three female developers, two female players and two webmistresses. (Something tells me that word's going to be as unpopular as the ever-flattering 'spinster'...) I'm not aware of any black developers and I only know of one black person in the entire community. I'm sure there are many more, but the fact remains that for every black or female person in the industry/community, I could name hundreds of white males.

The only prejudice I've ever experienced myself is people disliking me because of my rugged good looks, muscular physique and superior intellect, but somehow I've learned to cope. What are other people's experiences?

Hopefully we'll hear from some female and non-white people out there. Whenever this subject comes up it gets discussed exclusively by white males who feel qualified to speak for their put-upon bruthas and sistas, so it might help if just for once the skirts and darkies would speak for themselves...

(That last bit was a joke, included so white males can pretend to be offended.)

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#1 by "Steel"
2000-05-23 08:59:06
Foogla@gmx.de
<B>Andy:</B>
<QUOTE>The only prejudice I've ever experienced myself is people disliking me because of my rugged good looks, muscular physique and superior intellect, but somehow I've learned to cope.</QUOTE>

Yeah, me too! (You realize that someone had to say that, don't you?)

Steel out!
#2 by "SiliconVortex"
2000-05-23 09:24:06
siliconvortex@oreantar.com http://www.oreantar.com
I was thinking something similar earlier.  Not sure what thread, but I think it was Charlie W. who said that he couldn't develop games for females because he was male and had male oriented interests.  And since a lot(most) developers have male oriented interests it's hard to make games that attract a wider female audience.

This got me wondering if the same rift occurs in the interests of those that didn't grow up suburban white.  I know what interests me, and I know what might be interesting to other people, but I'm always getting suprised by what some people enjoy.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#3 by "JMCDaveL"
2000-05-23 09:31:50
lachney@ebicom.net http://?
<QUOTE>I'm not aware of any black developers </QUOTE>

Erm... Derek Smart?

--jmc
#4 by "Jason Hall"
2000-05-23 10:12:43
Hall@lith.com http://www.lith.com
Hmm...

This is an interesting topic and I feel that I may be able to contribute to this discussion.

Speaking as basically the only black senior level executive (CEO or President) in the entire 10 billion dollar worldwide game industry (at least as far as I've ever seen/met - and I've met just about all the senior execs at the majors), I can honestly say that I do find it to be a strange phenomenon that there isn't more diversity in our industry.

I find it strange because generally, the people I meet in this industry are intelligent, well educated, courteous, creative, and motivated to do good work and make money. Over the course of my life I have found that people who tend toward this description tend not to be overly racist, distastefully prejudiced or focused on issues like that at all in general.

This would lead me to believe that since our industry is filled with so many wonderful, and open minded people there would be more racial integration in our industry and not less. I have found that for the most part people in our industry are more interested in what work you can accomplish for them and not what you look like. Sounds like a perfect formula for the cultural melting pot to do its magic eh??

But alas, I stand alone as a senior level executive in the industry! As I said earlier, I have had the opportunity to meet damn near every CEO and President of all the major game publishers and developers out there, and I have not met ONE other black person holding a position of top-tier authority out there. Not one.

To be clear, it's not that I even look for such a thing, or think about this during the course of my day, but this topic really had me step back and think about it... and geez! I couldn't think of anyone!!

On occasion, I've met other "members of a minority group" holding senior level positions. A woman here, a Hispanic there, an Asian etc. - but more black people? No.

To be honest, I don't spend much time thinking about this topic. I say give a job to the best qualified person, regardless of what they look like - but you would think that there would be more migration of minorities into our industry just due to the fact that our industry is so accepting of diversity in general.

Obviously that's not happening. I'm not sure why. I've been in this industry for 10 years, and I can honestly say that based on my experience there is no more racism in our industry on average than anywhere else - so I certainly don't see a "good ol' boys" club  mentality being the barrier to entry.

Anyhow, it's certainly a topic worth exploring and I'd thought I'd add my unique perspective to the discussion for you to use as a reference point.

Now I go back to work.

Jason Hall
CEO
Monolith Productions Inc.
LithTech Inc.
#5 by "Jason Hall"
2000-05-23 10:25:00
Hall@lith.com http://www.lith.com
I feel I need to qualify one statement -

When I say "the only black senior level executive (CEO or President) in the entire 10 billion dollar worldwide game industry", I am referring only to the industry of game companies that have yearly revenue in the multiple millions of dollars and have total market caps in excess of 10+ million dollars.

I am sure that there are a lot of "small" or "new" development houses I have never seen or heard of that may have a black person or two running them. That is great. I am just really trying to hone in on the statistics of the "major players" of the game industry.

Within those companies, I have found no one else!!

Hope that makes sense. I'm just trying to clarify that point so that someone doesn't try to point out that "so and so just started a game company and he's black so you're not the only one..." etc... I understand this point!

Jason Hall
CEO
Monolith Productions Inc.
LithTech Inc.
#6 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-05-23 10:26:27
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
Well, what Andy is talking about is affirmative action here in the US, and it's quite the hot-button topic. Quotas are bad, hiring purely on merit is the only reasonable thing to consider but... unfortunately there are still people who base their hiring practices on things like race and sex. That will change over time,as those who grew up in a more segragated time start to... well, die off and be replaced by people more used to an integrated world. (Obviously this has already happened to a large extent.)

But if you're looking for why there isn't better minority representation in the game industry (and this ties to the first part), it's probably all about economics. For the last 20 years, computers have been the domain of the middle class and above, and as prices come down and/or more people have realized it's worth risking rent on your future, this will change. But it'll probably take another 10 years...
#7 by "Clorox"
2000-05-23 10:31:23
clorox@ignmail.com http://www.loudeye.com
Funny.  I was just going to mention Jason.

Clorox
stain remover
#8 by "Andy"
2000-05-23 10:58:17
andy@planetcrap.com
Jason - interesting comments. From what you say about your experiences, it sounds like the situation in the games industry may be more severe than I imagined.

I've never spent any time trying to find out how many coloured/female people work in the industry, but I expected someone to reel off a few examples of people I wasn't aware of. If you're right that there are no other black/Asian people in the 'big' jobs then that's disappointing.

As you say, though, I don't believe it's due to any form of prejudice. If a black person wanted to start a games company, everything being equal I can't imagine him/her having any more trouble doing it than a white person. So I guess there are just a lot more white people wanting to make games. Also a lot more white people wanting to play them, in my own experience.

One other thing, with regard to my well-known views on Monolith: In case anyone should think I had some hidden agenda here, I didn't know that you were black. So when I said that I didn't know of any black developers, I wasn't trying to 'exclude' you - I honestly didn't know.

Are you very light-skinned or mixed-race? I've seen a few pictures of you and you always looked white to me.
#9 by "Chango"
2000-05-23 11:23:43
papa_chango@hotmail.com http://www.btinternet.com/~jedi99/
At first I was wondering whether this phenomenon is a phenomenon at all, and not just 'one of those things' we all take as read.  For example, even though pretty much all industries have their own 'race majority' - as visible in the games industry.  Take the music industry for this example:

and before anyone jumps on my back saying "Hey, I know of at least 3....etcetc" I'm speaking in broader terms than highlighting every single person in the world :0

Rap music: primarily black
rock: music: primarily white
bizarre techno music: primarily asian

Girl bands - spice girls, et al
boy bands - Backstreet boys, et al
teen bands - vengaboys, five, etc
R&B bands - boys 2 men, and others (I'm sorry, R&B isn't my strong point)

Okay, now I have humiliated myself before my peers, by willingly admitting to knowing more about girl bands, boy bands, and teen bands, than R&B bands (damn!)...

So, as I stated at first, I appraised this situation and contrasted it against other industries, which I believe now was the wrong thing to do.

You're always going to have 'more blacks than whites doing this' and 'more whites than blacks doing that', but I feel uneasy about this rule applying to the games industry - as illustrated by Jason Hall.  Like he says, for an industry that promotes diversity and cross-boundaries as its driving force, the lack of blacks and women is disturbing.
You can't really say that asian folks don't play a big part in gaming industry, as the Japanese contingent is extremely strong.

What's my point?  I honestly don't kow if there is one.  I suppose if there is a point to any of this it would be that we can understand, for example, why the majority of whitefolks don't like rap music, because it's a predominantly black thing, and something which they can't relate to as readily.  Whether this is the way it should be or not, it's the way it is.  But for something like the games industry, we ALL play the games and have an active interest: blacks, whites, hispanics, asians, everybody.  There's no real excuse or reason for it, but I guess there's no definite way ro address it either, unless somebody opens up a 'computer industry for minorities college' - but then you're back to the positive discrimination thing again, which, as a white perosn, I personally find offensice.


And while we've got Jason Hall on here, I'd like to say that the reason he is individual to the industry is not so much that he's black, but more that he is The Incredible Gaming Hulk ;) - hey, he'd kick my ass.



-Chango
#10 by "Seth Krieg"
2000-05-23 11:37:46
seth@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
I live in a state (country?) where this law is enforced. It's called "Equal Oppurtunity" (which is the name of the act), where, by law - once a business hits a certain number of employees, a position must go to someone of some sort of ethnic minority. It's odd to see Andy genuinely afraid of this law being passed. But I know there are some parts of the country (mine including) where if you were a minority, before this law, you could not get a job in this hick town I call Roseburg.

I do acknowledge there are places where the weakness of this law is doing the opposite it was meant to. I know there are currently 2 positions at my local UPS (where I work) that are not filled because no person of ethnic minority have applied. And since UPS is such a large scale company (330,00+) they are required by law to have those positions available by law if someone of ethnic minority applied for the job.

It's just such a far reaching law, when it should be decided regionally.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#11 by "Seth Krieg"
2000-05-23 11:42:08
seth@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
The new issue of Next-Gen there's a pic of Jason with their new Doctor guy, he looks pretty big, black, (big), and beautiful there. ;)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#12 by "Seth Krieg"
2000-05-23 11:48:32
seth@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Jason: Real question, would it bother you to finance (or develop, license lith to) a game that portrayed facets of rascism in a large extent of the content? (like RTCWolfenstein).

Another curious thought, did id make the decision to license out the name because ethnic additions to the staff? (Brian Hook, Anna Kang) if memory serves me, when id made Wolfenstein there wouldn't have been any kind of possible rift because, IIRC, everyone was white.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#13 by "carljarvis"
2000-05-23 12:18:35
carljarvis@home.com
While it's easy to dismiss things like affirmative action and equal opportunity employment as being racist (negatively or positively), they serve a very important function that is hard to see at times.  I grew up in a small (pop about 90,000) midwestern college town that was about %25 black.  The town was divided very clearly along racial lines.  The black people live here, the white people live here.  This is a black park, this is a white park, etc.  The majority of the blacks lived in poverty, especially in relation the the whites.  The problem the blacks had was breaking the cycle of poverty that was very entrenched in their culture and lifestyle.  And this is where I see things like affirmative action taking a very important role.  They help people out of that.  The problem with a complete meritocracy (if such thing exists) is that it leaves people in these cycles.  I wouldn't count that as only a black problem either.  I'm sure there are any number and variety of communities like this, but the American black community is more visible.  Now, I'm a white kid who comes from a fairly affluent background, so I hold no special insight into this, and I don't want to come off as if I'm claiming to.  I've just seen this thing a lot, and it's very difficult to know what to do about it, but I see affirmative action and programs like it as a good first step with promising results in some cases.
#14 by "Andy"
2000-05-23 12:32:54
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#12</b>, Seth Krieg:
<QUOTE>
Jason: Real question, would it bother you to finance (or develop, license lith to) a game that portrayed facets of rascism in a large extent of the content? (like RTCWolfenstein).
</QUOTE>
What a great question!

But how it RTCW racist? Isn't the premise of the game that you are fighting against Nazis? Surely that's anti-racist?
#15 by "asspennies"
2000-05-23 14:02:13
asspennies@coredump.org http://www.coredump.org/
Just want to point out, there is no definition for "positive discrimination" or "reverse discrimination" - these are bogus terms.  There is only *discrimination*, and any form it takes is decidedly negative.

Also, part of the reason there are so few black or hispanic people in the industry is undoubtably socialization.  It's unfortunate that our society seems to rigourously define the roles under which people can grow in, but its effect is plainly noticeable.  I don't think you'll see many black people in the game industry because they are discouraged from the very beginning from entering such a field.  (Not to mention the economic barriers that exist - such as access to computers at an early age with which to experiment with)

And it is doubly unfortunate because these are not creative black people who are being shut out, these are creative *people*, and we need as many of them as we can get to advance the industry we all love.
#16 by "G-Man"
2000-05-23 14:03:36
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
<b>#12</b> "Seth Krieg" wrote...
<QUOTE>when id made Wolfenstein there wouldn't have been any kind of possible rift because, IIRC, everyone was white.</QUOTE>
There is NO way Romero is white... I just don't believe it.
By the way keep in mind that we only see the inner workings of a TINY minority of the game companies out there (FPS developers). Most of the really LARGE companies (Sony, Midway, Nintendo, etc) probably DO have a wider ethnic pool. There are a TREMENDOUS amount of asian game designers guys, or maybe you've never played any NES games back in the day.

As far as there being very few Black CEO's in game development companies like Jason hall attests, well that is a separate issue in my mind. There are FAR less CEO's than there are total employees, and the skills and background required are completely different. I require more data to make an educated guess about this.

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "RedLine"
2000-05-23 14:07:36
redline@omegaforge.com http://www.omegaforge.com/pod/
[14] Andy

Heh, you need to define racism... Racism does not <I>exclusively</I> mean "White vs Black" or have you forgotten that ?  Racism is not defined by colour of skin alone...

If, for example, I call an American a "fucking Yankie bastard" that is racist remark simply because I use their Nationality in a derogatory manner.  The problem is the word has been twisted over time to the point where the common defination has changed.

Anyways, RTCW is racist in the absolute sense of the word, because it potrays a group of people - Nazis - In a negative light... what you think of the Nazi movement is irrelevant to the defination of the word.

It's like, if PersonX murders PersonY and then you go and kill PersonX, that in turn makes you a murderer... although some people would argue that you were Right to do what you did... that doesn't change the defination of the word.
#18 by "Desiato"
2000-05-23 14:10:35
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com
To Jason Hall:

Why aren't there more minorities in an open business culture?

Perhaps the last thing a young black man cares about is joining the gaming industry.

That is the only conclusion you can draw if the industry is indeed "open".

With the emphasis on sports figures, not business leaders -- being the main motivation for young black men to achieve their goals, I'm not too suprised that most excellent atheletes are black, and very few blacks are in the gaming industry.

Perhaps if media saturation wasn't so sports-oriented, maybe the idea that shooting for that basketball or football scholarship wouldn't be such an attractive target.

But wishing for the media to change is usually a fruitless endeavor.

I guess I'm saying that with Jason being the only Black CEO in the gaming industry, perhaps the burden of popularizing his role unfortunately is all his.

Why? There just isn't anyone else. Sad, but true.

But there is also a part of me that realizes that a lot of young black people are into console games, and unfortunately that kind of closed-box game doesn't allow a person to investigate how it was made or even modify the content.

Oh well, all theory -- no real facts to back it up, but then again - this is planetcrap.


Desiato..
#19 by "Sastan"
2000-05-23 14:22:21
sastan@tpg.com.au
<quote>Isn't that just a little patronising to black and Asian people?
Why should they get a job based solely on the colour of their skin?
Shouldn't they have to earn the job in the same way that a white person would?</quote>

And if the world were a nice place, and everyone played fair, that would be the case.
But then in reality we have the negative discrimination that african-americans (I hate using the term "blacks")
have had ever since they were shipped the the US as <b>slaves</b>.
The fact remains that they have been mistreated, and they are at a disadvantage
(in general terms) in comparison to caucasions.
If you're going to be realistic, how else will you get them fairly represented in all aspects
of life if you don't try and give them a chance. Here in Australia aboriginies are able to
gain entrance into university with lower scores than everyone else, because it is known
that caucasion settlers pissed on them when they came and stole the land 200 years
ago, and that they are still being pissed on, though to a lesser degree.

By giving special places to minorities in this way, the aim is to <b>rectify</b> mistakes,
to try and help them out of a situation that they really couldn't help.

I don't really see how you can argue about this, if you look a statistics on african-americans
on their socio-economic status, you'll find that they are well behind that of caucasions.
And it would be hard not to attribute that to those who supported slavery. But not being
American, I can't state that with complete certainty, but I'm pretty sure that's more or
less correct.

If I'm not, bite me. Well, my first post to the new PC, glad to see it back.

(And Jason Hall is an african-american?! I had no idea. I assumed he was caucasion, but
that would be based on the general gaming industry in which his race are poorly
represented, which just emphasises the issue.)
#20 by "Sastan"
2000-05-23 14:29:56
sastan@tpg.com.au
Damn, I'll have to download Crapspy.
#21 by "Chango"
2000-05-23 14:30:05
papa_chango@hotmail.com http://www.btinternet.com/~jedi99/
GMAN: "<i>There is NO way Romero is white... I just don't believe it. </i>"



-Anyone who thinks "Superfly Johnson" is a good name for a black man thesedays is <b>definitely</b> white.


-Chango
#22 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-05-23 14:51:49
Darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
Racism works both ways ....

Whilst we may not have many problems with skin colours over here in N.Ireland, we have religion to brawl over.

population, 65% protestand, 35% catholic

legislation says .. 50/50 split in your workforce or else.


anyone else see the problem here ?


Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#23 by "Chango"
2000-05-23 14:53:43
papa_chango@hotmail.com http://www.btinternet.com/~jedi99/
Sastan "<i>But then in reality we have the negative discrimination that african-americans (I hate using the term "blacks") </i>

I'll probably get mailed dogshit for this, but personally I <b>hate</b> the term "African American",and will always hate it.  That's the problem with Political Correctness and, ultimately, the whole 'corrective action' thing.

My 2 cents:

What is corrective action for? - to level the playing field, presumably.  But the one thing that everyone seems to forget (all races here), is that when you have a rule that sways in favour of one race above another, you have only served to enforce that very same segregation.  On one side you have the white's being racist towards the blacks and the whole slavery deal going on, so to remedy it the government decides to offer more to the blacks than the whites.  The whites then feel angry at the blacks for having more than them (no matter how much or little, or any at all - it doesn't take much) and then the racism and segregation starts again.
This extends to the 'African American' thing.  I'll wager that over half the blacks that call themselves African Americans have never, in fact, been to Africa.  I'm not begrudging <b>anyone</b> their roots, but come on... Be 'American' rather than 'African American' - and be proud to call yourself that.  Labelling yourself in such a way will only serve to reinforce that racial barrier.  I hate it when black people take affrontage to me referring to them as black.  I know they aren't 'black', but then again I'm nowhere even remotely near what we all know to be the colour 'white' - more peachy or 'pink'.  The same goes for Italian Americans, Irish Americans, Asian Americans, etc etc.  When I move over there in a few weeks I'm certainly not going to call myself "English American" - that would be fucking ludicrous.  Like I said, roots are the deepest and most in-grown thing we have, and we should honour our roots, but when we start using them as levers to further our own hate, it all starts going wrong.

Like I said, I'll probably get mailed death threats and dog shit for what I've said, but I honestly believe what I'm saying.

DAMN.  I sowre up and down when I saw this thread  that I wouldn't get on my soapbox, but I have.  I do apologise.



-Chango
#24 by "Chango"
2000-05-23 14:58:04
papa_chango@hotmail.com http://www.btinternet.com/~jedi99/
Darkseid,

I'll reinforce what you're saying based on my little soiree over there.  Being a catholic I certainly felt a certain amount of tension when we went past those flags on the roundabouts.  Not being from round there, I was very pleased, however, to learn that its not nearly as bad and obvious as the BBC news likes to portray.
#25 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-05-23 15:50:20
piramida@agsm.net http://www.agsm.net/
<b>#17</b> "RedLine" wrote...
<QUOTE>
Anyways, RTCW is racist in the absolute sense of the word, because it potrays a group of people - Nazis - In a negative light... what you think of the Nazi movement is irrelevant to the defination of the word.
</QUOTE>

I think you didn't actually think about the meaning of the word racism...

Racism is judging (assuming some negative characteristics) a person by the race he or she belongs to. It has *nothing* to do with killing Nazis, because you can't call Nazis a race. Nazi movement is just a political party which states that other, non-aryan races are somehow defective and thus should be enslaved / slaughetered.

There is nothing wrong with killing Nazis, at least this can't be called rasizm. You can call it morally wrong, though within my moral it is perfectly acceptable.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#26 by "Sastan"
2000-05-23 15:53:21
sastan@tpg.com.au
Chango -
<quote>I hate it when black people take affrontage to me referring to them as black. I know they aren't 'black', but then again I'm nowhere even remotely near what we all know to be the colour 'white' - more peachy or 'pink'. The same goes for Italian Americans, Irish Americans, Asian Americans, etc etc.
</quote>

That's true, however, there is not really any negative connotations associate with "white", whereas being called "black" or "yellow" would.
I'm of Indian (not Native American) descent, and on those occasions where insults are made, being called a "black" is among them.

But I can agree to a limited degree with the necessity to differentiate oneself as, say, an "african-american" where not necessary. But then again, if I hear about a guy, and that he's American/British/Australian I'll automatically assume he's caucasion, and I'm pretty sure most other people will do so as well.

However, you hit the spot in being fed up with the degree of PC required these days. An example here in Sydney is a Lebanese gang attack on a police station. The Premier identified them as being Lebanese, and then get's into trouble by the Lebanese community. And as a result, whenever there's any crimes committed by Lebanese, it is only mentioned that they are of "middle-easter descent", and only in extreme cases.
It's getting fucking stupid. I must imagine it's worse in the States, or UK.

And to Jason Hall: have you ever been in a position where your race has been an issue, whether in jest or not?
#27 by "The Lucky Charms Leprechaun"
2000-05-23 15:53:39
dickcheese@hotmail.com http://www.bluesnews.com
I think it also has a lot to do with access to the technology.  As Desiato said previously, minorities are perhaps more interested in being good at sports since they see more of their peers doing such a thing and making an outrageous living doing it, and probably think computers and games are for geeks.
#28 by "Dethstryk"
2000-05-23 15:58:22
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>#25</b> "PiRaMidA" wrote...
<QUOTE>There is nothing wrong with killing Nazis, at least this can't be called rasizm. You can call it morally wrong, though within my moral it is perfectly acceptable.</QUOTE>
Speaking of which, wasn't the original Wolfenstein banned in Germany? You figured they would get a little uptight about killing their grandfathers and the such.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#29 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-23 16:03:31
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#28</b> "Dethstryk" wrote...
<QUOTE>#25 "PiRaMidA" wrote...

There is nothing wrong with killing Nazis, at least this can't be called rasizm. You can call it morally wrong, though within my moral it is perfectly acceptable.

Speaking of which, wasn't the original Wolfenstein banned in Germany? You figured they would get a little uptight about killing their grandfathers and the such. </QUOTE>

I suspect it has more to do with the imagery associated with it. FWIW Bernd Kremier (sp?) did an article on it that should be available at www.gamasutra.com
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "asspennies"
2000-05-23 16:05:22
asspennies@coredump.org http://www.coredump.org
<b>#28</b> "Dethstryk" wrote...
<QUOTE>#25 "PiRaMidA" wrote...

Speaking of which, wasn't the original Wolfenstein banned in Germany? You figured they would get a little uptight about killing their grandfathers and the such.
</QUOTE>

It was banned in Germany, but that's because Germany has *very* strict censorship laws.  One facet of which is that NO nazi imagery of ANY sort is permitted to be displayed - even if it's derogative and derisory.  It's their attempt to stamp out nazism altogether - although in my view, limiting speech just makes hate that much stronger.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "RedLine"
2000-05-23 16:11:26
redline@omegaforge.com http://www.omegaforge.com/pod/
[25] PiRaMidA

They consider themselves to be "Better" than everyone else... they call themselves the "super race"....
#32 by "Dethstryk"
2000-05-23 16:14:31
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>#30</b> "asspennies" wrote...
<QUOTE>It's their attempt to stamp out nazism altogether - although in my view, limiting speech just makes hate that much stronger.</QUOTE>
I really wish there wasn't any kind of band on Nazi related items. Really, about the only thing that could come of it is a few (or many) good laughs at their expense.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#33 by "legion88@yahoo.com"
2000-05-23 16:15:41
legion88@yahoo.com
<quote>

Isn't that just a little patronising to black and Asian people? Why should they get a job based solely on the colour of their skin? Shouldn't they have to earn the job in the same way that a white person would?


</quote>

Yes, and it also means that since the minority obtained the job even though he/she was not qualified he/she would be more likely fired due to incompetence, not to mention do dumb things on the job which can hurt the company.  In other words, the future of that person in said company isn't too bright.  The company will end up with a "revolving" door of minorities coming and going.  Eventually, they will find a very capable individual but it is surely not cost-effective this way.

#22,
<quote>
population, 65% protestand, 35% catholic

legislation says .. 50/50 split in your workforce or else.


anyone else see the problem here ?


</quote>

I see two problems.

(a) certain key individuals in the gov't appear to lack basic math skills
(b) the legislation is effectively encouraging Protestants to be unemployed.

(b) is of course worse considering the current relation between Prot. and Catholics.  What were they thinking?  Or were they?
#34 by "The Lucky Charms Leprechaun"
2000-05-23 16:17:27
dickcheese@hotmail.com http://www.bluesnews.com
I've always been under the impression that Germans have no sense of humor.  They are born without their funny gland.

Therefore I have a feeling that games like Wolfenstien are a bit too unrealistic for their brains to comprehend.  It's not logical.  Simulated violence does not compute.

If the game were more realistic, they could probably appreciate it more, perhaps they will with the new version.  This is the country that gave us Nena and Rammstein.
#35 by "Chango"
2000-05-23 16:23:46
papa_chango@hotmail.com http://www.btinternet.com/~jedi99/
Asspennies "<i>t was banned in Germany, but that's because Germany has *very* strict censorship laws</i>

- yes, as I recall, and GreenMarine could perhaps clarify this for me, Unreal Tournament had to be modified extensively for German release.  As I remember it was removing all humans and replacing them with androids, and removing the blood and guts and replacing them with nuts and bolts.  Germany has been *very* strict on violence in games since the days of the C64.  Barbarian, a timeless classic in my eyes and the original slash-em-up, was banned alltogether in Germany (This was before the wall fell, so maybe it was just banned in one of the two countries at the time, I'm not sure)


-Chango
#36 by "Andy"
2000-05-23 16:26:16
andy@planetcrap.com
Satan - not that I often have much need to use any of these terms at all, but I generally describe people as "black" because, to the black people in the area were I grew up, that was the only acceptable word.

I've always found the African-American thing to be a bit weird. I'd compare it to someone describing me as Anglo-Saxon instead of just "white". I don't think I could ever comfortably describe someone as African-American because it sounds so patronising - it's like, "I'm calling you this just to avoid saying you're black".

(Cue story about US politician in Africa. Anyone?)
#37 by "Tom Cleghorn"
2000-05-23 16:38:39
tc10@nospam.st-andrews.ac.uk http://www.fisty.com/~tom
<b>RedLine:</b>
<QUOTE>They consider themselves to be "Better" than everyone else... they call themselves the "super race".... </QUOTE>
Now stop and think about that... the National Socialist Party of Germany (the Nazis, numbnuts) preached that the Aryan race was the purest strain of European, and that it was the master race globally, since Europeans were better than anyone else. They did <i>not</i> preach that membership of the party automatically admitted one in to the master race.
Your earlier comments with regard to <b>rac</b>ism being based on any group are what is wrong with this world today. Nobody will say anything about any other group for fear of being branded a racist. I know people who accuse me of being a bigot for telling Irish jokes, or for being a touch homophobic, and lump me in with racists.
The way I see it is this - we're supposedly all equal these days, so why can't we tell jokes about each other?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#38 by "Chango"
2000-05-23 16:48:01
papa_chango@hotmail.com http://www.btinternet.com/~jedi99/
Tom Cleghorn walks into a bar...
#39 by "The Lucky Charms Leprechaun"
2000-05-23 16:51:24
dickcheese@hotmail.com http://www.bluesnews.com
Two guys walk into a bar.

Which is ridiculous because you think the second guy would have walked around it after watching the first guy smack into it.
#40 by "Tom Cleghorn"
2000-05-23 16:53:29
tc10@nospam.st-andrews.ac.uk http://www.fisty.com/~tom
<b>Chango:</b>
<QUOTE>Tom Cleghorn walks into a bar...</QUOTE>
A few possible conclusions to that:
1 - 'BONG!' It was an iron bar.
2 - ...and drinks himself stupid, then says and does various ill-advised things and is a pariah for a week or so.
3 - ...and gets in a fight.
4 - ...enjoys a couple of quiet Guinnesses and leaves.
5 - ...and says to the barman 'ever met my foot-high musician?'

:)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#41 by "asspennies"
2000-05-23 16:54:18
asspennies@coredump.org http://www.coredump.org
<b>#39</b> "The Lucky Charms Leprechaun" wrote...
<QUOTE>Which is ridiculous because you think the second guy would have walked around it after watching the first guy smack into it. </QUOTE>

Unless the second guy is blind.

And the first guy is mute.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#42 by "loonyboi"
2000-05-23 16:54:57
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#4</b> "Jason Hall" wrote...
<QUOTE>This would lead me to believe that since our industry is filled with so many wonderful, and open minded people there would be more racial integration in our industry and not less. I have found that for the most part people in our industry are more interested in what work you can accomplish for them and not what you look like. Sounds like a perfect formula for the cultural melting pot to do its magic eh?? </QUOTE>

You would think, right?

There are a few factors that I feel contribute to the ethnocentric nature of our industry (in this country, of course).

I think the big one, is that 90% of training in the industry is <i>self-taught</i>. So you could be a highly educated man and have zero chance of getting a job. It all has to do with opportunity and what you have access to.  I don't know your background, and how you got into the industry, but I'm assuming it was because you did it the way most people did: you had access to the resources and you pushed yourself in that direction.

While any ethnic map of the US will show that minorities have access to computers and technology, chances are that in any areas that are predominantly black or hispanic the numbers are much lower than their white counterparts. And because these skills are entirely self-taught, the younger people come into contact with the technology, the better they are by the time they hit high-school (and later).

Now obviously this doesn't account for the miniscule numbers in our industry, but it does show why there aren't more minorities on an entry level.

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#43 by "loonyboi"
2000-05-23 17:00:14
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com
<b>#36</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>I've always found the African-American thing to be a bit weird. I'd compare it to someone describing me as Anglo-Saxon instead of just "white". I don't think I could ever comfortably describe someone as African-American because it sounds so patronising - it's like, "I'm calling you this just to avoid saying you're black". </QUOTE>

Well, not only that, it's terribly misleading. Just because someone is black doesn't mean they're of African descent.

If anything, that harkens back to days when it was known as "the dark continent."

-jason<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#44 by "Happy cow"
2000-05-23 17:19:01
happycow30@hotmail.com http://happycow.home.icq.com
<quote>This would lead me to believe that since our industry is filled with so many wonderful, and open minded people.....</quote>

Really? Why don't any of them post at planet crap?

I also wonder, when Loonyboi grows up and become <b>Loonyman</b>, will he have special Loony powers and wear a cape?

Happy Cow ( just making a lame attempt at humor while the rest of you try to hammer out the worlds problems)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#45 by "The Lucky Charms Leprechaun"
2000-05-23 17:20:55
dickcheese@hotmail.com http://www.bluesnews.com
Yo Happy Cow, "Moooooo HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!"
#46 by "Gabe Kruger"
2000-05-23 17:25:29
gakruger@hotmail.com
The main thing about African-American that bugs me is that it is often used to be politically correct but people don't think about the words they are using. I was watching golf when Vijay Singh won a tournament and they were talking about how he was an African-American that was successful at golf. Ummm...he is from FIJI!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#47 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-05-23 17:29:34
piramida@agsm.net http://www.agsm.net/
<b>#31</b> "RedLine" wrote...
<QUOTE>
They consider themselves to be "Better" than everyone else... they call themselves the "super race".... </QUOTE>

The movement itself is not a race, and they did not call themselves (Nazis) the super race, it applied to the whole aryan race, among which there were many nice people who did not share their opinions. If the game was about killing germans in general (women, children, and innocents) that would be racism.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "asspennies"
2000-05-23 17:29:42
asspennies@coredump.org http://www.coredump.org
Technically, of course, we're all from Africa.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#49 by "Pete Closs"
2000-05-23 17:33:08
I always found it amusing and quite ironic that Hitler was almost as far from Aryan as you could get. Dark haired, short, brown eyes...<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-05-23 17:33:41
piramida@agsm.net http://www.agsm.net/
<b>#48</b> "asspennies" wrote...
<QUOTE>Technically, of course, we're all from Africa.</QUOTE>

Or, looking deeper in history, we are all monkeys, so what the heck. Monkey race rule :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
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