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Peter Molyneux! Sid Meier! Wil Wright! Doug Church...?
March 9th 2002, 04:52 CET by m0nty

Yes, he does belong in this company of Gaming Gods, even if he can't sell a game by putting his name to it. However, he will suddenly become more prominent if this move is any guide (story from PlanetDeusEx):

Well, this be cool: it has been confirmed that Doug Church, Ultima Underworld project lead and lead programmer, lead programmer of the original System Shock, contributor to the Dark engine used in Thief, System Shock 2, and Thief 2, contributor to Deus Ex and all around l33t dude has signed on at ION Storm Austin. What his position and duties will be is unknown at the moment.

His entry in the latest of GameSpy's interminable Top XX lists gives more insight into just who he is, including his close ties with Warren Spector. His latest efforts have been significantly less well received that his early work, but with a CV like that, his activities demand attention.

How significant is this move? Why has he not got the respect he deserves? Is "respect" from mouth-breathing fanbois worth having anyway? Is he one of the GameIlluminati? Will he merely work on sequels like Deus Ex 2 or is there something more original coming out of ION Storm Austin? Or is his input on DX2 enough to excite you?
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Home » Topic: Peter Molyneux! Sid Meier! Wil Wright! Doug Church...?

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#1 by Dinglehoffen
2002-03-09 04:57:24
Fanny Fungus
First frickin' post. Put that in your wampum and smoke it.

Heeeeeerrrrree's DINGLEHOFFEN!!!!!
#2 by Matthew Gallant
2002-03-09 05:01:33
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
Oh retarded melty creature, you've done it again!

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#3 by Dinglehoffen
2002-03-09 05:04:57
Fanny Fungus
Thief 1 and 2 were the finest, most artistic and replayable games ever made. Anything he does for T3 or DE2 will be heart and soul.

Now if only the Ion Storm cliche didn't drag the memory of Romero's Dicklicktana...

Heeeeeerrrrree's DINGLEHOFFEN!!!!!
#4 by m0nty
2002-03-09 05:10:07
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
OK, to expand on the other games I mentioned in #0, why has Frequency, which Doug and a host of other ex-Looking Glass guys made, not gained the same level of respect as Rez? It seems very similar to Rez, so you might think it would be spoken of in the same tones. Perhaps it was not marketed as heavily?
#5 by m0nty
2002-03-09 05:12:16
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
TTLG made good noises about Frequency, although their views might be discounted by some due to them being unabashed LG fanbois:

It has come to our attention that FreQuency, the game that was being developed by Harmonix Music, has been released and is now available for the Playstation 2. What makes this game so special? For starters, the game has gotten major praise from gaming journalists all around. Secondly, it was created by a bunch of ex-LG'ers you all have come to know and love -- people like Josh "Robotkid" Randall, Doug Church, Greg LoPiccolo, Dan Schmidt, and others. Wow, game praises and Looking Glass relations sure come hand in hand, huh? :)

At any rate, if you have a Playstation 2, do yourself a favor and please go out and purchase this game, I have heard and read great things about it and it is our duty to support our gaming mentors! If only I had a PS2..
#6 by Dinglehoffen
2002-03-09 05:15:31
Fanny Fungus
Well, because Frequency looks like some chaotic backyard flourescent finger-paint fight instead of a "mind-expanding" game. Way back when I took a particular something at a Black Sabbath concert and it looked exactly like this stupid game. Maybe that's how it should have been marketed.

Heeeeeerrrrree's DINGLEHOFFEN!!!!!
#7 by BobJustBob
2002-03-09 05:27:05
Frequency is awesome. But oh so hard.
#8 by None-1a
2002-03-09 05:30:25
OK, to expand on the other games I mentioned in #0, why has Frequency, which Doug and a host of other ex-Looking Glass guys made, not gained the same level of respect as Rez? It seems very similar to Rez, so you might think it would be spoken of in the same tones. Perhaps it was not marketed as heavily?


Um becuase Frequency is a warmed over version of MTV music generator or all those wacky japanese 'music' games (ie video simon). Rez is a very stylistic rail shooter.
#9 by m0nty
2002-03-09 05:30:29
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
This homage from the dearly departed ION Storm boards shows Warren Spector's appreciation:

If you love System Shock, spread the credit around a bit. Worship at the altar of Doug Church, the project director and one of the genuine, unsung geniuses in the gaming world. Pay homage to the other saints on a solid LookingGlass team (Marc LeBlanc, Art Min, Rob Fermier, Tim Stellmach, Dorian Hart and others who will now hate me for leaving them off this list). And save some hymns for ORIGIN's Shock team, too (people like QA-lead Harvey Smith, now one of the DX lead designers). They made that game what it was.
...
This is not just false or disingenuous modesty -- despite the magazine articles, the hype and the PR NO ONE makes games alone in this business. Not Carmack, not Tim Sweeney, not Richard Garriott or Chris Roberts or me (certainly!).
#10 by jafd
2002-03-09 05:38:04
Let the name of Doug Church be written upon the stones of the Pyramid of Love.

Doug Church, Ultima Underworld project lead

<heart>
<thump-thump>

Life's too good.

choose any two: Cheap, Fast, Good.
#11 by Charles
2002-03-09 05:41:24
www.bluh.org
Now if only the Ion Storm cliche didn't drag the memory of Romero's Dicklicktana...


Supposedly Ion Storm Austin is gonna have a name change sometime.  Of course, that was said probably 6 months ago or more... no change yet though.

#12 by Dev
2002-03-09 05:45:12
admin@techillimit.net
Far out, I hope they have him assigned to Thief3. LG, *sniff*.. I sure miss those guys and that point in time.

"We are the voice of Karras.." :)
"In at last.."
"Mmmmm malfunction *whirr* *whirr* *beeooooop*"
"When are they going to bring me dinner? thats what I want to know.. when they are going to bring me dinner"
"Hey, I'm going to the Bear pits tomorrow? you want to come with?"

Hehehe, those great dialogues!  Thief1/2 were great.

"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Lewis Carroll
#13 by crash
2002-03-09 06:20:29
so... let me get this straight, then.

Brian Reynolds is to Sid Meier as
Doug Church is to Warren Spector

yes? no?

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#14 by crash
2002-03-09 06:21:25
and Dev, uh, Thief 2 was great? um. which version did you play? the one where the big bad guy sounded like Droopy Dog with a head cold?

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#15 by Dinglehoffen
2002-03-09 06:51:57
Fanny Fungus
Nobody: "Hey, do you have Mario 64 in stock?"

Cashier: "Yes we do, faggot. We keep them right here so when faggots want to play their queer games, we can take their faggot money."

Nobody: "Neato! I'll buy it!"

Cashier: "Would you like a faggot bag with that, sir faggot?"

Nobody: "Yeah!"

Cashier: "Faggot paper or faggot plastic, faggot?"

Nobody: "Plastic."

Cashier: "Thanks, fag. Have a nice, gay faggot day!"

Nobody: "Thanks!"


Somebody: "Do you have Thief Gold and Thief 2 in stock?"

Cashier: "Why, yes we do, sir. Here, let me give you a complimentary copy of Deus Ex, for your refined and masculine taste in games."

Somebody: "Thanks! See ya 'round."

Heeeeeerrrrree's DINGLEHOFFEN!!!!!
#16 by bishop
2002-03-09 06:53:02
http://www.darkintel.org/00FF00/
Thief 2...

It was a good game certainly, and probably better than most of the tripe out there, but I can't compare it to the sheer fun of the Dark Project.

I don't know, I hated the shift from imbecilic morons you can shadow flawlessly to machines of WAR that hear you from a mile away.

I suppose it was to up the "difficulty" but it seems like a cheap way to do it to me, still, nothing wrong with thief 2, I just didn't enjoy it as much as I did the original.

If you're about to die, ask yourself the following question:
#17 by m0nty
2002-03-09 07:33:29
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
crash, I think I can hear the strains of "Wind Beneath My Wings" playing...
#18 by Bailey
2002-03-09 08:02:22
Thief stuff and Ultima Underworld? Well, to echo jafd, Church do make my little heart go pit-a-pat. (fanning neck) I declare. But really, there are so many unrecognized contributors to the "art", it's little to no surprise that so many slip through unnoticed. Nice to give props though.

Dev

Hey Mongo, you owe me some links to CCP devs smack-talking fans on their own forums, remember? Put up now or settle in for a life of heckling.

I was bitter and cynical before it was cool.
#19 by uber_stoat
2002-03-09 09:02:46
uber_stoat@zombieworld.com
I thought Karras was a great, creepy villain.  The voice was a big part of it.  All that going on about how "the flesh is weak" and so forth, with *that* voice...

You just know that late at night, when all the other Mechanist Brethren are asleep, Karras squats on the tiled floor of his private bathroom and jams knitting needles into his scrotum.

"the flesh is weak...*squik*... UUUGGHHH!"
#20 by chris
2002-03-09 09:13:29
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Not only did I not know that... I don't think I needed to. =)

-chris
#21 by Bezzy
2002-03-09 10:05:12
painberry@hotmail.com http://www.antifactory.org
Well, because Frequency looks like some chaotic backyard flourescent finger-paint fight instead of a "mind-expanding" game. Way back when I took a particular something at a Black Sabbath concert and it looked exactly like this stupid game. Maybe that's how it should have been marketed.

...I was gonna say.
Although I don't think one can really judge from screenshots, it seems like frequency's art is... garish to say the least. Rez's is done by many a professional artist/designer. Frequency looks like they had the right idea, but sadly couldn't pull off something more tasteful.

There is no just cause that a fool will not follow. HALLO MISTAH!
#22 by "Amanda Pitch"
2002-03-09 11:19:04
does anyone know where i can download the latest hotfixes from microsoft without having to use the smartupdate ?

thanks..
#23 by skalmanxl
2002-03-09 14:22:38
Supposedly Ion Storm Austin is gonna have a name change sometime.  Of course, that was said probably 6 months ago or more... no change yet though.


I heard that too, appearently "Manifesto Games" was a name they considered. Ion Storm is way too tarnished really. Given that they released two great games and two bad, most people seem to judge them by the bad.

*Welcome to the land of the digital*
#24 by Darkseid-D
2002-03-09 15:11:24
rogerboal@hotmail.com
speaking of "boi`s"

anyone seen looneyboi around?



Ds

Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
#25 by Duality
2002-03-09 15:16:15
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
I think the shacktrolls devoured him.
I would think he was not much more than gristle and bone, though.

uNF!
#26 by Warren Marshall
2002-03-09 15:18:20
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
crash
and Dev, uh, Thief 2 was great? um. which version did you play? the one where the big bad guy sounded like Droopy Dog with a head cold?

Thief2 was one of the best games I've ever played!  Which version did YOU play?

I thought it was much better than the first one.  They took everything that was done poorly in the first one (i.e. the undead) and minimized it.

uber_stoat
You just know that late at night, when all the other Mechanist Brethren are asleep, Karras squats on the tiled floor of his private bathroom and jams knitting needles into his scrotum.

"the flesh is weak...*squik*... UUUGGHHH!"

This is why fan fiction is -never- a good idea.

I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
#27 by Gunp01nt
2002-03-09 15:23:03
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Amanda pitch:

updates.microsoft.com

all your upgrading needs right there :)

"I'm not sleeping with a junior high-schooler, I have a life sized doll that looks just like one."
#28 by Martin
2002-03-09 15:25:20
http://www.mocol.nu
LOL @ Duality in #25!

-- Martin
"Burger me!"
#29 by Ryslin
2002-03-09 16:36:32
(waves piece of paper)
why ... why did we have to mention scrotum..

i could have done without that .. REALLY!!

BATPHONE!
#30 by The_Joker
2002-03-09 17:24:33
http://www.jackinworld.com
How violent! Anyone causing any kind of damage to any part of his wang should receive the death penalty!

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
#31 by Bezzy
2002-03-09 18:08:03
painberry@hotmail.com http://www.antifactory.org
I think it's punishment enough in itself :/

There is no just cause that a fool will not follow. HALLO MISTAH!
#32 by Bezzy
2002-03-09 18:08:45
painberry@hotmail.com http://www.antifactory.org
Oh wait... I get it now. Duh.
Sorry.

There is no just cause that a fool will not follow. HALLO MISTAH!
#33 by "jartotheface"
2002-03-09 20:35:00
Re #22:

As far as I know, all the hotfixes are scattered throughout the microsoft knowledge base, if you do a search  with hotfix as the keyword, lots of them pop up. Windows Update annoys me because I have to disable my proxy or it won't met me connect.
#34 by Dev
2002-03-09 22:07:36
admin@techillimit.net
Hey, Bailey.

No, get what I owe you straight :) I owe you examples of CCP dev team members being good and positive/friendly to their fans in the Eve forums.   I never said anything about CCP dev team members giving smack talk to their fans. Where did you get that from? were we even in the same conversation? :-/
Lemme respond to this Thief post and I'll get you squared away with some good posts from the Eve forums.

#14 Crash..

I wouldn't go so far as to say that. I thought whomever played Karras did an excellent job.  
Opinions vary, of course.

"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Lewis Carroll
#35 by Dev
2002-03-09 22:17:12
admin@techillimit.net
Just to forestall any response disagreeing with me,
-----

"Yeah, the folks at CCP really seem to be nice people.. judging from the responses they have left on the Eve "official forum". On an unrelated note, the developers for Elder Scrolls Morrowind really seem to be on the ball and polite to their fans. If you can get a development group that is as friendly and capable as the Bethesda Softworks peeps, directly behind an MMORPG.. you've got it made imho.."
----
^
there is what I said in the "Russians skating on thin ice" thread.  I was being serious about the folks at CCP being nice people, I wasn't being sarcastic.  This was in response to Bailey's post of #80:

---

"For the record, CCP are likeable folk. At the time I was writing for the flesh-eating disease that was DTN, I had a little fun with CCP's poor grasp of how acronyms work, (i.e. actually involving letters used in the phrase being abbreviated) so they gave us a live Q&A session and offered a handful of beta passes once the game went press-friendly status. They seemed rather amused by their fans going absolutely bugfuck over my gentle teasing. However, the idea of a Homeworld-esque RTS GIP doesn't really appeal to me, so I've not really followed their product since. Beautiful screenshots though. "

--

Re-read what I said, I wasn't disagreeing with you or being sarcastic.. and no, I'm not changing my story.
I think you read a little bit too far into what I stated.  Let me grab some proof of the Eve guys being nice, though for the life of me.. I can't imagine why you need it.  It would seem that there was a bit of a misunderstanding.

"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Lewis Carroll
#36 by jafd
2002-03-09 22:50:40
If we drop a few more names in the topic and comment thread, perhaps we can adjust that pesky wobble in Earth's axis. Geesh.

choose any two: Cheap, Fast, Good.
#37 by The_Joker
2002-03-09 23:01:08
http://www.jackinworld.com
I would like to announce that on MARCH 19 2002, jafd will have received my wang for ONE WHOLE YEAR!!!!!! That's right, on Monday march 19, 2001, jafd received my wang for the very first time in its virgin ass, and has since been receiving it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

For this special event, I will plan some kind of celebration. I'm not sure yet what, but SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE.

I welcome any ideas.

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
#38 by Dinglehoffen
2002-03-09 23:05:35
Fanny Fungus
Idea: We'll line up and use jafd's testicles as a pinata.

Heeeeeerrrrree's DINGLEHOFFEN!!!!!
#39 by Bailey
2002-03-09 23:06:52
Dev

Re-read what I said, I wasn't disagreeing with you or being sarcastic.. and no, I'm not changing my story.

Ah, I see now. I read: Yeah, the folks at CCP really seem to be nice people.. judging from the responses they have left on the Eve "official forum" as being said in a sarcastic "Yeah, right" tone. No worries.

But you DID forget about the links for about a week and a half, so I've no regrets in naming you Mongo, heh.

I was bitter and cynical before it was cool.
#40 by The_Joker
2002-03-09 23:12:52
http://www.jackinworld.com
#38 by Dinglehoffen:

That would be cool I guess, but remember, at this point we do not know if it even has testicles.

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
#41 by Dev
2002-03-09 23:37:42
admin@techillimit.net
Sorry man, I got a bit busy (planetcrap is pretty low priority, I hate to say)

I'll get you those links, one of these days (like this afternoon), presuming you still want me to do so.

"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Lewis Carroll
#42 by crash
2002-03-10 03:20:31
Warren:

Thief2 was one of the best games I've ever played!  Which version did YOU play?

geez, i'd have thought thief2 would have been way too long for you. and i played the one with the contrived steampunk plot and the 24/7 security cameras and stupidly-aware robots (which weren't really robots but were) that were nearly impossible to shut down unless you popped 'em with a pixel-perfect water arrow and inconsistent "plot" and droopy dog. that was the version i played.

I thought it was much better than the first one.  They took everything that was done poorly in the first one (i.e. the undead) and minimized it.

the undead didn't bother me. at least they made sense in context. it's been a long time since i played it--trying to block it out, don'tcha know--but if you'd like i can try to remember the things that annoyed me other than the above. and don't even get me started on the endgame "puzzle". talk about fedex^3...

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#43 by crash
2002-03-10 03:23:09
biggest annoyance, however:

HI MY NAME'S GARRETT AND I'M A MASTER THIEF BUT I CAN'T MANAGE TO FIND ANYTHING BUT HARD-SOLED SHOES EVER.

buy some leather shoes, ya retard.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#44 by Warren Marshall
2002-03-10 03:45:33
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
crash

Don't make me turn this car around.

I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
#45 by crash
2002-03-10 04:23:24
nice rebuttal. i'll take it under advisement.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#46 by Warren Marshall
2002-03-10 05:12:29
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Well, I figure we can go on for 12 more posts with, "It's a good game", "No, it's not!", etc - or I can end it with a joke.  I took the easy way out.

I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
#47 by Post-It
2002-03-10 07:17:51
keithlee@speakeasy.net
Hmmmm...I know this is going to sound weird, but does anyone know where I can find a copy of realMYST? Y'know the version that is actually 3D and not pre-rendered screens? I played the demo the other day and it made me want to play thru the whole game that way but I can't seem to find it anywhere. Amazon has it listed, but not in stock and it probabaly won't be. Any other ideas?
#48 by m0nty
2002-03-10 08:04:09
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
Joker, this movie is for you.
#49 by Bailey
2002-03-10 08:43:05
Dev

Sorry man, I got a bit busy (planetcrap is pretty low priority, I hate to say)

Heresy.

I'll get you those links, one of these days (like this afternoon), presuming you still want me to do so.

Nah, the only reason I needed quotes was if you were being sarcastic, it's cool. But I'm still calling you Mongo for your fucked up prioritization.

I was bitter and cynical before it was cool.
#50 by JMCDaveL
2002-03-10 08:50:34
Post-It:
Any other ideas?


Hmm.. how about a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head?

--jmc
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