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T O P I C
It's all the same...
March 4th 2002, 15:45 CET by Nova Z

Have a level 50+ in Everquest?  Lead a guild in Dark Age of Camelot?  Like hitting that combat key then chatting for the rest of the game?

Then this one's for you.

Okay, take a few minutes to try out the game.  It's a small download, runs on pretty much any machine, and is a full featured MMORPG by today's standards.  Then come back to this topic, because I'm going to spoil all the fun.

Now, you've 'played' the game.  I'm sure if you love EQ or DAoC or <insert MMORPG title here>, you are sitting there saying to yourself "I don't get it" or "That was stupid".  If you've ever played and hated any of the above titles, you are probably sitting there chuckling to yourself.  I was one of the latter when I first saw PQ.

So if you love any of the crappy MMORPGs out there today, you need to ask yourself:  "What makes Progress Quest any different from the game I play?"

I see (and have experienced) the exact same thing in MMORPGs today.  It's an exercise in boring repetitiveness, which is captured (and enhanced!) by Progress Quest (Because you don't even have to waste time playing it).  Progress Quest summarizes MMORPGs today.  Get stupid quest, fight stupid monsters until inventory is full, sell, repeat.

What makes these horrible games any good?  All I see is a fancy chat interface.  If you added the ability to chat, and some fancy graphics to PQ, would you not have the exact same thing as EQ or DAoC?  If you enhanced that with the ability to control your character and wander in random directions for hours on end, would it be any different?

My argument is that MMORPGs today offer nothing entertaining.  All they offer is mindless repetition.
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#1 by Matt Perkins
2002-03-04 15:49:44
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
You get what you put into the game... if you want mindless repetition, you've got it.  If you want to make some "friends" online and play with them, and have a good time, you might have that...  Or any of a pile of options...  the point of a MMORPG is to play with other people...  if you aren't doing that, you probably aren't having fun...

-wzrd
stupid vowels
#2 by Gabe
2002-03-04 15:50:51
http://www.dartpublishing.com
I agree. Progress Quest should have an integrated IRC client, then it would be complete.
#3 by Matt Perkins
2002-03-04 15:52:43
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
right, some of us hang out on IRC without "mindless repetition", think of the fun we could have with it!  :P

-wzrd
stupid vowels
#4 by Gabe
2002-03-04 15:55:09
http://www.dartpublishing.com
We do?

Anyway, it's what you make of it, right? "Look what I just killed?" "Do you have this crazy spell?" "Kobold penis???"
#5 by Ashiran
2002-03-04 15:57:48
I uninstalled it upon reaching lvl 2.

It did help me convince that my descision to not play an MMORPG is the correct one.

I'm sorry but I don't pray that way.
#6 by Matt Perkins
2002-03-04 16:01:01
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
What is that a picture of in your icon gabe?  I can't figure it out...  Maybe a fish kissing a candle?  I'm lost...

And no, you can't have my Kobold Penis spell, do you know what I to do for the Kobold shaman to get that?

-wzrd
stupid vowels
#7 by Bailey
2002-03-04 16:01:07
Another parody of a satire of a broken industry. My sides are splitting.

Sir, you are seriously hunting my wumpus.
#8 by Bailey
2002-03-04 16:03:27
Hey morn, you wanna push MattG's submitted topic through next? The subject matter is one that interests me on a personal level.

Sir, you are seriously hunting my wumpus.
#9 by Morn
2002-03-04 16:03:29
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
All of the currently available MMORPGs simply cater to the "power gamer" way too much. Yes, it's fun to try and find the best equipment combination or distribute your skill points just right, but a MMORPG should allow you to do more than that. Which is why I'm so disappointed with DAoC -- it is all about getting better equipment for your character, and then using that equipment to reach a new experience level, which requires you to once again get new equipment... gah. Obviously there are enough people out there who like that kind of gameplay. I don't.

With all its bugs and evil Funcom propaganda ;-) I've so far enjoyed Anarchy Online the most. At least it allowed me to have fun (when it worked). Then again I only spent very little time fighting stuff and improving my character.

What I don't understand is why some people bash MMORPGs because of the lack of plot development or whatever. You can't compare MMORPGs to normal single player games. Look at them as giant virtual playgrounds, and they will suddenly make a lot more sense.

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/lover/kraut
#10 by Gunp01nt
2002-03-04 16:10:30
supersimon33@hotmail.com
it's all the same?

well, basically you could say every FPS has been the same since Wolfd3D (running around shooting baddies) but it's the little things that matter. The small innovations (teamplay, improved tactics, improved realism etc.)
think how multiplayer has evolved over the years (from deathmatch to teamCTF and so on) and you'll know that it's not all the same.

<<< Do you believe in a god that tells you lies or do you believe in me? >>>
#11 by crash
2002-03-04 16:18:35
re: progressquest. i'm currently level 44, in Act V. level 44 trans-kobold mu-fu monk. weapon and quest list is impressive, and stats are outrageous, and i'm going to let this run on my work machine until i get bored with it. since i don't have to actually do anything, no reason to not keep it running. it's been running now for i think three days. maybe four. i just wonder how high it'll get. we'll see.

is it the same as playing an mmog? sure, if you combat macro and don't actually play the game.

If you've ever played and hated any of the above titles, you are probably sitting there chuckling to yourself.

my reaction? same as to statbuilder: i laughed, because any good satire/parody actually has to accentuate a single aspect of something and blow it up all out of proportion for the effect. statbuilder is funnier, though, because it's slightly more "accurate", using the term loosely. and i play mmogs pretty much exclusively, with forays into "normal" MP gaming. and "normal" MP gaming is chock-full of more choads, assholes, and dipshits than any mmog i've ever played.

maybe i should make a counterstrike parody... you'd load it up, join, die in 15 seconds, go three rounds, and then get kicked as a cheater. then you'd do it again, over and over and over. for spice, i'd throw in random strings of profanity, racism, and misogynism--to give you the "real" experience, don'tcha know.

observation: if you think this is mmogs are all about, you probably also think animal house, vacation, and airplane! are documentaries.

then again, if this is what's keeping you away from mmogs, and out of my game, maybe this isn't altogether a bad thing.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#12 by crash
2002-03-04 16:19:47
...if you think that this is what mmogs are all about.

coffee.... must have.... coffee...

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#13 by Post-It
2002-03-04 16:22:29
keithlee@speakeasy.net
The only MMOG that has piqued my interest of late is one I say a quick write up for over at mmognews.com. It's called:A Tale In The Desert

A short clip from the FAQ:
It's a radically different massively multiplayer role-playing game. It contains no combat: no monsters, no player-killers, no swords or armor. Your character advances by completing, participating in, or leading large projects. Negotiation and politics play a very large role. The game has a plot that unfolds in response to player actions, and when the story is over, the game ends.

Really? No combat?

Yes, really. That's not to say that the game is nonviolent - there are some quite disturbing things that happen once the story begins to unfold. There are also plenty of ways to get into conflicts with your fellow players. Read on...

So do you have stats? An Inventory?

Yes. Characters have vital statistics, levels, skills, and an inventory. Also, characters are able to create functional buildings within the game world. Some of these buildings are used like tools, others like factories, training centers, markets, or storage areas....

How does politics fit in to the game world?

Players are able to go to the Great University of Leadership, and create a petition. Petitions are proposals to change the rules of the game in some way, and are written in English. The player who creates a petition must then gather 1000 signatures from other players. This signature gathering effort can be cooperative - it's possible to make copies of a petition, and share the work. Once 1000 signatures are gathered and turned in to the Great University of Leadership, a vote is automatically triggered. Votes last 24 hours. If a majority of players vote in favor of a law, eGenesis will have a programmer change the rules of the game on-the-fly. Our technology allows us to modify the game rules without bringing down the servers or interrupting game play. We ultimately have veto power over laws - for instance, if a player proposes a "law" that says lead can be turned into gold by clicking on it three times, or otherwise violates the basic physics of the world, we will veto it. However, laws prohibiting or compelling other players to act a certain way, with penalties spelled out are fair game. We expect that not all laws proposed will be for the greater good...


Plus if you donwload the client and sign up for the beta you are automatically in. Whenever they announce that they are testing the Beta, fire it up and log in. I haven't actually played it yet, but it sounds pretty cool.
#14 by Gabe
2002-03-04 16:24:13
http://www.dartpublishing.com
Guard your bricks carefully Post-It!
#15 by crash
2002-03-04 16:27:07
a tale in the desert is a frustrated poli-sci major's wet dream. and i cannot imagine the staggering amount of complaints their customer service dept. is going to have once it goes live.

wanna see real anarchy online? a tale in the desert is so going to be it.

then again, it will be an interesting social experiment--will people actually pay money to be virtually oppressed by other people?--so it'll have value for that.

because, you see, to coin a phrase: People Are Broken.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#16 by Gunp01nt
2002-03-04 16:29:05
supersimon33@hotmail.com
#13:

saw that screenshot with those 40 players in 1 screen with chat bubbles filling the whole screen?

HORRID I tell you! those graphics!

<<< Do you believe in a god that tells you lies or do you believe in me? >>>
#17 by JMCDaveL
2002-03-04 16:35:06
Statbuilder 0wnZ ProgressQuest!

--jmc
#18 by _Fury_
2002-03-04 16:37:23
ajhill@wi.rr.com
Statbuilder causes carpal tunnel, ProgressQuest does not. I know which I choose. (and yes, I have ProgressQuest running on my home PC right this minute =)

Witty Quote
#19 by Martin
2002-03-04 16:46:44
http://www.mocol.nu
I actually thought we were talking about Statbuilder (yeah, I can read, I just didn't remember the name of StatBuilder). So, now we have fanbois of two parodies of MMORPGS fighting over which parody is the better.

Is that supposed to be ironic or something?

-- Martin
"Burger me!"
#20 by crash
2002-03-04 16:48:07
if you haven't played mmogs, progressquest will tend to be funnier. if you have played mmogs, statbuilder will tend to be funnier. if you've played diablo 2, you'll wonder why blizzard isn't suing the makers of statbuilder for ripping off their game ideas. that's about it, really.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#21 by Martin
2002-03-04 16:50:33
http://www.mocol.nu
Oh, I got this earlier. Some of you have probably seen it before. Would have been even cooler if he did it on purpose. 8) Safe for work btw.

-- Martin
"Burger me!"
#22 by Warren Marshall
2002-03-04 16:55:46
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
What makes these horrible games any good?  All I see is a fancy chat interface.  If you added the ability to chat, and some fancy graphics to PQ, would you not have the exact same thing as EQ or DAoC?  If you enhanced that with the ability to control your character and wander in random directions for hours on end, would it be any different?

My argument is that MMORPGs today offer nothing entertaining.  All they offer is mindless repetition.

I realize that bashing MMORPG's is all the rage with the cool kids these days, but what makes you the authority that you can pass judgement on them so heavy handedly?

The same could be said for FPS games.  "Players run around, pick up weapons and try to shoot each other for hours on end.  Over and over, and all they get for their trouble is a number on the scoreboard that increases for each kill.  It's just mindless repetition.".

If you aren't into a certain kind of game, fine, don't play them.  But I don't see the need to attack MMORPG's so vigorously.

crash
re: progressquest. i'm currently level 44, in Act V. level 44 trans-kobold mu-fu monk. weapon and quest list is impressive, and stats are outrageous, and i'm going to let this run on my work machine until i get bored with it. since i don't have to actually do anything, no reason to not keep it running. it's been running now for i think three days. maybe four. i just wonder how high it'll get. we'll see.

I left it running all weekend ... I can't wait to see how far I've gotten.  :)

I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
#23 by crash
2002-03-04 16:57:59
Martin, that kicks ass. everyone at work here is laughin. man. how did he do that?

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#24 by Duality
2002-03-04 17:02:15
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
Hey I've got just udnner 1/2 of LV1 and 4 quests done already.  Neat!

*smooches*
#25 by Bezzy
2002-03-04 17:09:46
painberry@hotmail.com http://www.antifactory.org
#10 I'm seeing your perspective, but I think the point of the satire is not to say that "every game in a genre is mechanically identical", but is to question why such a worthless gameplay paradigm is so remarkably addictive to some players.

The answer is simple. It's all about the style and metaphor of the game. Some people don't care about the mechanics of RPGs, (unless they are simply power-gamers). These people care about being transported to a magical world where they can craft their character like a doll. What they paid money for is the concept of an alternate universe. Gameplaying doesn't really come into the contract. In that respect, recent RPGs have had more in common with The Sims than any other game. You churn through tedious tasks in order to satisfy your desire for "material" wealth, which in turn, allows you to gain other materials faster. And it's balanced so that you'll never quite fail, because ever dying would just be unfair, right? (sheesh)

Wait.. what was I trying to say again?

Oh yes. The parody doesn't say to me that all games in a genre are inherantly similar (as you have interperated it). Instead it simply points out that, if you take away the visual flair, the roleplaying element (if any :/ ) and the socialization, you have a pretty poor excuse for a game underneath. From a download.net comment:

[Progress Quest has] No interaction at all and that is what it's all about in a rpg.


Interaction with people? Perhaps. Interaction with the game? Sure, but you have to wonder how much skill really factors in these games. Interaction is irrelevant when the game makes it plainly obvious that there's only one method of progression. Your skill at attacking et al are decided for you by computer generated random range, but monsters tend to be balanced against you so that you'll never quite lose (if you have even an ounce of skill or common sense). Like a game of Snakes and Ladders, the outcome is certain as long as a monkey keeps rolling the dice. You WILL win eventually. Eventually*.

But so what if underneath everything, the game is a pile of poop? It's irrelevant, because people who play and enjoy the game could care less about that aspect. Another demographic for marketing to exploit. It's just the way some people swing. You don't have to respect it, but you atleast have to accept it.

Progress Quest has certainly succeeded, though. It has people who wouldn't normally talk about this stuff seriously considering its message, after all. (Or atleast, that's what I'd hope).

*And by this reasoning, single player FPS games are pretty crummy due to save games. In this case, many people buy the game to experience the plot, or the action-movie style set pieces. Skill's negated by the fact that punishment for dying is only as great as going back in time to your last quick save. Yet another example of catering to wider audiences while dropping the bar for people who'd like to play an actual challenging game, rather than a pseudo interactive movie.

There is no just cause that a fool will not follow. HALLO MISTAH!
#26 by Martin
2002-03-04 17:23:43
http://www.mocol.nu
@crash: I'm pretty sure the skipper had very little to do with what happened, besides rammning the bridge that is. 8)

-- Martin
"Burger me!"
#27 by Bailey
2002-03-04 17:24:28
Warren

If you aren't into a certain kind of game, fine, don't play them.  But I don't see the need to attack MMORPG's so vigorously.

Things have calmed down quite a bit since the early days, trust me. Ain't nothing like the shit-slinging fest it used to be, though SND tried to resurrect that to their own undoing, blah blah, etc, vomiting up the same old Eldin-bashing hoopla.

The problem most people seem to have with these games is the disappointment. "Well, it could've been so much more." What you're basically doing is giving every roleplaying geek his wet dream medium (playing DM to a few hundred people at once) and crippling his interactivity with the world around him. A virtual blueballs, if you will. They want something new and vibrant, they end up with a mindless push-button-get-pellet system, and obviously get a little self-righteous about the whole affair.

It ain't right to be such an uppity little snot, but it ain't much better for these companies to keep churning out the same old shit ten million dollars after the first concept is jotted down on a cocktail napkin in a vodka-fueled haze. ("Elves... but with guns!") Still, like you say, it's their product, and the kids don't have to play it. It all comes down to the desire of ownership though: I bought the game, I pay the fee, I should have a say in the function and form of the world around me.

Not accurate or well-thought out, but fun and easy, and you get to bitch a lot. The real problem in this industry is we don't have enough Kelly Flocks (or to a much lesser degree, Sanya Thompsons) telling the kids to SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY AND PAY, no, instead we get these patsies and snivelling community reps who are terrified of actually telling the whiney little bastards to show some social skills and not scream bloody assrape everytime their class is tweaked ever so slightly.

The games might be broken, but as crash mentioned the old adage earlier, the people are too. Give and take.

Sir, you are seriously hunting my wumpus.
#28 by _Fury_
2002-03-04 17:28:44
ajhill@wi.rr.com
<nitpick> Sanya Thomas </nitpick>

Witty Quote
#29 by Warren Marshall
2002-03-04 17:29:51
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Bailey
Well, if someone has actually purchased and is actively playing the game, I don't have a big problem with them bitching.  It's more the people who say, "I don't play MMORPG's.  Never have, never will!  They're the stupidest games evar!".  Those people are annoying as fuck.

I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
#30 by Greg
2002-03-04 17:33:37
ProgressQuest is funny after the first couple hours only if you avoid watching the window. If you let it run minimized, check it out every few hours or so. It can be very amusing.

Greg

-Swallow it all and be glad, for a shilling I've paid and a shilling's worth I'll be having!
#31 by Caryn
2002-03-04 17:37:48
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
I'm going to come out and say that in general, I like MMORPGs. Here's why:

1. I enjoy exploring a gigantic world. I don't mind trying to get to another level when the purpose is to allow me to go explore and look at a new part of the world with new creatures I've never seen and new items I've never seen. I like looting for new items, seeing some new magic item and having it do something cool and putting it on/using it.

2. I enjoy building new characters. I tend to play characters til they reach their 20s, then creating a brand new class and race and playing that one. The reason I do this is because of the very thing everyone picks on MMORPGs for, and that's that it's a leveling machine. By the time I've hit my 20s, I feel like I've explored most of the game world, and at that point I'm bored with my particular class/race and want to see something new.

3. I enjoy doing this with friends. If I'm playing with a friend who's as new to the game as I am (this is important), then I really enjoy doing the, "whoa!! Look at that thing! What is that?" With them.

Unfortunately, after a while I DO get bored with them -- I cancelled my DAoC account recently because my friend has no time to play anymore and I don't really want to play with anyone else. But I tend to enjoy them longer than most people here on PC, I think.

- Caryn
Everyone has a signature but me.
#32 by crash
2002-03-04 17:48:16
tangent:

holy fuck these guys are going to be so sued. jesus.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#33 by zakk
2002-03-04 17:50:41
zakk@timedoctor.org
But where is the Lunix version :(

-zakk
#34 by Matthew Gallant
2002-03-04 17:52:09
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
The same could be said for FPS games.  "Players run around, pick up weapons...It's just mindless repetition."


Actually, as this compass diagram shows, FPS games are quite different from MMORPGS.

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#35 by Bailey
2002-03-04 17:53:52
Fury

Let's see how coherent you are after being away for 20+ hours! Do it! Do it NOW!

Warren

Well, if someone has actually purchased and is actively playing the game, I don't have a big problem with them bitching.  It's more the people who say, "I don't play MMORPG's.  Never have, never will!  They're the stupidest games evar!".  Those people are annoying as fuck.

Oh, bloody hell man, that's an entirely different kettle of whiners. I thought you meant mewling ne'er-do-wells, but you were referring to infant hydrocephaly syndrome survivors. Two different breeds, you know.

crash

Having used their services for the past month or so, I have to say it's a handy tool for those of us who didn't make beta... and as long as it only worked with beta products, I think it would be relatively harmless. By and large though, yes, they're completely buggered.

Sir, you are seriously hunting my wumpus.
#36 by crash
2002-03-04 17:55:56
hm. wade through some decent legal analysis, if you wish. the instant they replaced blizzard's .dll, they lost, pretty much.

i'll agree battle.net is ass. this ain't the solution, though.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#37 by crash
2002-03-04 17:57:56
Matthew: i'd move statbuilder closer to the middle of the x-axis. it does require interaction; not much, but more than progressquest. PQ is entirely passive, while SB requires not only clicking on a button, but mouse movement and more clicking from time to time. say, between EQ and PQ.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#38 by Greg
2002-03-04 17:58:11
crash,

I'm surprised their website is back up. It had been taken down after Blizzard sent them the DMCA nastygram.

Funny though, how right around the same time they release a new Starcraft patch with UDP Lan support.

Greg

-Swallow it all and be glad, for a shilling I've paid and a shilling's worth I'll be having!
#39 by Warren Marshall
2002-03-04 17:59:09
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
crash
i'll agree battle.net is ass. this ain't the solution, though.

No, it isn't.  As internet history has shown, a petition is the answer ... nothing says "rabid fanboys" like a petition over something stupid and trivial.

I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
#40 by crash
2002-03-04 17:59:49
*snicker*

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#41 by Caryn
2002-03-04 18:01:11
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
I don't understand why people don't look into the obvious legal decisions before doing something like this only to have all their hard work stopped. Anyone with half a brain cell could suspect that this isn't allowed. But because they seem to emphasize that volunteers run the servers, I'll bet their using the "it's free, so it's allowed" defense. I've run into this with so many mod teams. Just because you're not making money at it doesn't mean it's not infringing on IP or copyright.

- Caryn
Everyone has a signature but me.
#42 by Matthew Gallant
2002-03-04 18:03:53
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
crash, Passive/Interactive is the y-axis. Taking that and your comments into consideration, I believe Statbuilder is in the proper location.

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#43 by crash
2002-03-04 18:14:14
ah ok. i see it now. i r teh suq at math. :|

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#44 by Gunp01nt
2002-03-04 19:46:05
supersimon33@hotmail.com
sigh... 30 users online and nobody's posting...

<<< Do you believe in a god that tells you lies or do you believe in me? >>>
#45 by Ergo
2002-03-04 19:54:22
My biggest bitch with current MMRPGs is the time requirement. All the really good stuff is usually geared towards level 10,000+. I'm lucky if I have more than 3-4 hours a week to play games at all.
#46 by LPMiller
2002-03-04 19:59:50
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Because Gunp01nt, there are too many g'damn threads to read...must read them all....must...MUST!

What's the point of wearing your favorite rocketship underpants if nobody ever asks to see 'em?
#47 by Gunp01nt
2002-03-04 20:03:20
supersimon33@hotmail.com
LP:

yeah that's about the only downside of PC6, but I think that topic overload is just a startup flaw. the crappers already seem to be self-regulating.

<<< Do you believe in a god that tells you lies or do you believe in me? >>>
#48 by LPMiller
2002-03-04 20:06:08
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
I hope so....it's like feast or famine around here.  Not that I'm bitching, I'm just bitching.

What's the point of wearing your favorite rocketship underpants if nobody ever asks to see 'em?
#49 by Charles
2002-03-04 20:06:22
www.bluh.org
Okay, I guess I should give a little background, to help explain my article (and my bitterness) a bit more.

I am an RPGer by nature.  I've been playing RPGs of all kinds for as long as I can remember.  Lots of pen and paper, lots of old PC classics, and everything else.

I have played or beta tested practically every MMORPG out there.  Some for longer than others.  

The bitterness stems not from a pure malicious MMORPG hate like some seem to think.  It stems from the fact that MMORPGs come so close, yet end up so far, from a real role playing experience.  I've started up my UO account, and then quit, so many times in a row, it's not even funny.  I've played others for full stretches at a time.  UO is still by far the best MMORPG experience, yet it was also the first.  (Okay okay, I've heard that Meridian 59 is older, but I've never seen it, nor played it, and the closest I've come to it were vague references on forums).

I'm used to RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons, and Shadowrun, etc, that allow a customization.  A uniqueness of character.  When I think Roleplaying, I think of being able to use my imagination, and play my character in a unique way.  In ultima online, that was closer to possible than ever.  Originally anyway.  You could be many kinds of characters, and there were many different things you could do in the game.  You could adventure, you could create items, you could live off of other characters (thieving).  There was almost a 'full' game.  

Contrast that to a game like Dark Age of Camelot, where everyone is a cookie cutter class, and your 'uniqueness' of character can only be achieved by dying your armor to various shades of piss and shit.  I played Dark Age of Camelot, and I didn't feel any roleplaying environment.  The closest I could come to role playing was not talking about real life stuff in game.  

Where is the roleplaying in running across a world, camping spawns, then hitting your 'combat' key and running off to grab another pepsi?  Or eat lunch?  Or take a piss?  Where is the roleplaying in striving for the exact same item everyone else has?  Where is the rolelplaying in killing the same monster over and over and over again so you can get that next stupid experience level?  Where is the roleplaying when all you can do is look for that 'blue' monster that won't kill you?

These games offer no roleplaying ability short of that added by the players themselves.  And then, the players can only roleplay within what the game allows.  And since MOST mmorpgs only cater to the power players (the ones who play the game just to get the max level, just to have the best equipment, etc), you end up in games where few people actually roleplay.  Few power players actually ever roleplay.

Oh sure, you can say 'but there are roleplaying servers for people who want to roleplay'.  But that is just passing the buck.  It's saying "Well, you can't expect the game to give you roleplaying ability".  

Why not?  Nothing in any of these games promotes any kind of roleplay.  Especially when you have to focus on making your numbers bigger before you can even pretend to 'adventure'.  

Roleplaying requires interaction.  Not just interaction with other players as people seem to think.  But interaction with the world.  Not just NPCs.  But the world itself.  The world must play back.  

The world must interact with the players.

Life imitates Art.  Art imitates Life.  Monkeys imitate other Monkeys, and Monkeys can be pretty dumb. -- UncleJeet
#50 by crash
2002-03-04 20:18:51
Nova Z:

Roleplaying requires interaction.  Not just interaction with other players as people seem to think.  But interaction with the world.  Not just NPCs.  But the world itself.  The world must play back.  

The world must interact with the players.

you're really Gestalt in disguise, aren't you? if this is what you're after, read this--i'll go ahead and link-whore in his behalf.

nothin personal, but we've danced to this tune before, Nova Z.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
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