PlanetCrap 6.0!
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
T O P I C
Kein Unreal Tournament, jawohl!
February 28th 2002, 15:03 CET by Morn

After more than two years, Unreal Tournament has ended up on the German Index.

Too avoid confusion, here's a quick recap of what it means if a game is listed on the German "Index": games on the Index are judged to be harmful to minors. You are not allowed to sell or advertise (!) them to minors, which basically means that they disappear from most stores pretty quickly. Also, coverage in gaming mags and on gaming sites are considered "advertising", so that is a no-no, too. Also, and this is very important, games are not put on the Index arbitrarily by the government, but only "on request", usually by a youth welfare office, and only after actually checking the game (but if it contains blood, at least red blood, that'll often do).

The Index is part of Germany's youth protection laws. The BPjS -- Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Schriften -- is the authority responsible for processing indexing requests, testing the games, and finally putting them on the Index itself.

Unreal Tournament has been out since late 1999, together with Quake 3 Arena, which ended up on the German Index pretty quickly. There has always been a subtle feeling of being treated unfairly within the (German) Q3A scene, but generally people were glad that at least one of the "big two" was not being treated like neo-nazi propaganda or splatter movies.

Now that everybody has either bought or warezed the game, Unreal Tournament being put on the index will mostly hurt gaming site networks like krawall.de and the popular German comuter games TV show Giga Games, both of which can now no longer report on Unreal Tournament or available modifications. In fact, they may even be required to delete all previously published Unreal Tournament related content.

Unreal Tournament will still be played, but it will now effectively disappear from Germany's commercial gaming landscape. If you want to buy Unreal Tournament, you will have a hard time finding it.

Felix Knoke, Giga Games editor, reported the BPjS as being "spiteful" when he called them after hearing the news.
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Kein Unreal Tournament, jawohl!

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
#1 by Morn
2002-02-28 15:05:12
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
Return to Castle Wolfenstein was Indexed today, too.

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#2 by jjohnsen
2002-02-28 15:08:07
http://www.johnsenclan.com
Morn are there any recent FPS's that are not on the list?

Coarse and violent nudity. Occasional language.
#3 by Morn
2002-02-28 15:09:24
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
Good question. I don't have an up-to-date list. What recent shooters have there been?

All I can tell you is that Half-Life is not on it because there's a special German version with all the enemy soldiers replaced by robots, and the Barneys and scientists being invincible.

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#4 by Gunp01nt
2002-02-28 15:11:26
supersimon33@hotmail.com
heh well, not like they can stop the kids from playing the games anyway. Germany has a very extensive illegal software scene, and I'm sure they don't abide by this law either :)

The BPjS is kinda stupid, because it rules out the parents' responsibility over what their kids are playing which sucks cause that's what should be encouraged.

<<< Do you believe in a god that tells you lies or do you believe in me? >>>
#5 by jjohnsen
2002-02-28 15:11:30
http://www.johnsenclan.com
Soldier of Fortune, Medal of Honor, ST Elite Force, Red Faction.  Or is there a place I can read the list online?

Coarse and violent nudity. Occasional language.
#6 by Warren Marshall
2002-02-28 15:14:55
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
This surprised us (Epic) when it happened ... I guess we always knew it would at some point, but it was amazing that it took this long.  :)

I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
#7 by jjohnsen
2002-02-28 15:16:59
http://www.johnsenclan.com
But what about UT changed in the last two years?  Obviously I don't know enough about the Index, but how can it be fine for kids to play for a couple of years and now its evil?

Coarse and violent nudity. Occasional language.
#8 by Morn
2002-02-28 15:18:22
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
I am not militant anti-BPjS like so many other German gamers. It's important that people understand that the BPjS was formed a long, long time ago, and that it deals with a lot more stuff than just computer games.

In principle, I don't mind the government declaring things like "brown" music or ultra-violent splatter movies as "18+ only". In a perfect world, I would be very much against giving the government any control, but the sad truth is that you can't simply count on parents doing the right thing, since so many parents are fucking stupid.

However, what I think is a big problem with the Index is that computer games and movies that end up on it virtually disappear from stores, even (and this is the important bit) while they can still be sold (and advertised) to grown-ups!

And even worse, it certainly does not stop kids from playing these games, which is what the Index (as part of the youth protection laws) is actually supposed to do.

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#9 by m0nty
2002-02-28 15:18:42
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
How about SoE? Postal? Ethnic Cleansing? Underash? Hooligans? GTA3? The last of these has been repackaged for release in Australia with objectionable content excised. Also, Eurogamer reported a couple of days ago on the cutscenes and other content in a nice-looking Carmageddon clone for the PS2 called Twisted Metal - Black being heavily slashed after the three-number-acronym.
#10 by Caliban
2002-02-28 15:20:17
gunnar@caliban.de www.kaliban.org
This is simply ridiculous. And most annoying. Over the last two years we felt that the black shadow of the BPJS was finally going to disperse, as a number of games were spared -- among them GTA 3 (PS2), Counter-Strike, Gunman, Unreal, UT, Serious Sam, Red Faction, Fakk2, Delta Force, Operation Flashpoint and NOLF. Now it's back to the middle ages. Damn.

Caliban
---
»Reality can be useful«
#11 by Warren Marshall
2002-02-28 15:21:49
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
jjohnsen

Well, as Morn said in the topic,

games are not put on the Index arbitrarily by the government, but only "on request", usually by a youth welfare office

I guess nobody felt the need to complain until lately.  UT slipped under the radar.  But this is not good for future Unreal games because now the word, "Unreal" will trip a wire in someones brain almost immediately and odds are that future Unreal games won't last as long as UT did.

I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
#12 by Morn
2002-02-28 15:23:55
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
Wasn't GTA3 indexed a couple of weeks ago, or was I dreaming again?

I'm actually kinda surprised that Counter-Strike hasn't been indexed yet, considering it's the most popular multiplayer game ever, and pretty violent, too. I would very much like to learn the motivation behind requesting a game like Unreal Tournament to be indexed years after its release. I mean -- someone, somewhere, must have done it. Why? Why Unreal Tournament?

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#13 by Caliban
2002-02-28 15:27:41
gunnar@caliban.de www.kaliban.org
@Morn re: GTA3

No. Wasn't.
#14 by Gunp01nt
2002-02-28 15:29:02
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Morn:
even (and this is the important bit) while they can still be sold (and advertised) to grown-ups!

yeah but the only way to do that is by direct mail or something. You can't run a TV/radio/newspaper ad because kids could already see that and then you'd be advertising to kids, right?

<<< Do you believe in a god that tells you lies or do you believe in me? >>>
#15 by skalmanxl
2002-02-28 15:29:41
I don't really know all the laws in Germany when it comes to violent forms of media, but isn't it against the law to display graphic violence against another human? I think I've read that somewhere, care to enlighten me someone?

On a second note, this really is, one of the biggest displays of the ostricht method I've ever seen.

*Welcome to the land of the digital*
#16 by Morn
2002-02-28 15:30:01
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
Hopefully it was GT3. I hated that game. :P

Just kidding. And by the way, all those Q3A people who are now saying "finally they got UT, too!" should go to hell. :(

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#17 by skalmanxl
2002-02-28 15:33:12
all those Q3A people who are now saying "finally they got UT, too!" should go to hell. :(


I never quite got that, why does, playing one game, have to eliminate playing the other? Pure stupidity, diffrent taste, or narrowminded gamers...let them all burn in hell, I'm tired of the whole bunch who keeps saying "the game I'm playing is better then the game you're playing, which makes me smarter then you nenenenene".

*Welcome to the land of the digital*
#18 by Morn
2002-02-28 15:34:33
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
#15, skalmanxl: I'm not 100% familiar with the media laws here, but as far as I know, you're generally not allowed to show "mature" content before 11pm.

And speaking of ostriches, they actually suggested that websites with mature content "close" during the day and only "open" from 11pm to 6am or something. This would affect most gaming sites, too (unless they don't have a single mention of any indexed games).

I can't say I don't like living here, but this country can be "funny". ;)

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#19 by coda
2002-02-28 15:36:46
http://fragged.org/
so 60 years down the road, germany is still a police state...

surely importing unmodified games there privately can work?

--
Wanna be adored? Go to India and moo
#20 by m0nty
2002-02-28 15:37:17
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
At the risk of drawing down more flamey anti-Aussie rants, the BPjS is a bit like the regimen the Australian government instituted for online pornography a year or two ago. It is a complaint-driven system backed up by some fairly draconian laws, which caused much furore at the time of their passing. However, in practice it has been structured so that everything is allowed through without much bother until someone complains about a particular Web site, in which case it is scrutinised against the legislation. Most of the complaints in Australia relate to child pornography, which pretty much everyone objects to (even civil rights campaigners), so the controversy has boiled over. Another aspect of the regime in Australia is that a very miniscule amount of Web sites can be processed by the system in any given period, due to the lack of funding given to the people involved in the process.

In relation to the BPjS, the problem with being under the strictures of a complaints regime is that one game only needs to be complained about once, by anyone, and it's toast. With Web sites, you can always move to another URL. You can't really rename a game and sell it again... can you? (Insert obligatory Duke reference here.)
#21 by Morn
2002-02-28 15:39:19
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
I never quite got that, why does, playing one game, have to eliminate playing the other?

Games, operating systems, CPUs, countries...

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#22 by Morn
2002-02-28 15:41:37
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
#19, coda:
surely importing unmodified games there privately can work?

I'm not really sure. As far as I know, german stores/vendors are not allowed to take mail orders for indexed games, but I think you're allowed to import games from another country, as long as the publisher is allowing it (like Activision -- they didn't want the US RtCW to get into Germany) and the game isn't actually banned here (like the original Wolfenstein, for example).

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#23 by Caliban
2002-02-28 15:42:01
gunnar@caliban.de www.kaliban.org
@skalmanxl, re: laws in germany

The rather vague argumentation of th BPJS says: Things that justify or  play down violence go on the INDEX. And things that depict violence in such a matter as to injure the dignity of man. This can be used as a level against almost every type of game except perhaps puzzle bobble.

»Reality can be useful«
#24 by Warren Marshall
2002-02-28 15:43:36
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Yeah, I don't understand the polarization on games either.  I own both UT and Quake3 - I enjoy them both for different reasons.  What does that make me?  bi?  :)

I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
#25 by Caliban
2002-02-28 15:43:47
gunnar@caliban.de www.kaliban.org
Ahem. It should read lever, not level in my post above. typical gamer-error...

»Reality can be useful«
#26 by Morn
2002-02-28 15:45:12
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
I own and love both Q3A and UT, although I have to admit I've been playing a lot more Q3A recently. No special reason though.

I've been hearing good things about some UT mods which I'm going to try soon.

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#27 by m0nty
2002-02-28 15:51:41
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
I own and love both Q3A and UT, although I have to admit I've been playing a lot more Q3A recently. No special reason though.

Jules:    So, tell me again about the violent computer games.
Vincent:    Ok, what you want to know?
Jules:    Violent computer games are legal over there, right?
Vincent:    It's legal but it ain't hundred percent legal, I mean, you just can't walk into a game store, buy a DVD case and start gamin' away. They want you to play in your home or certain designated places.
Jules:    And those are the LANs?
Vincent:    It breaks down like this, ok, it's legal to buy it, it's legal to own it, but if you're the proprietor of a game store, it's illegal to sell it. It's legal to carry it, but...but that doesn't matter, 'cause, get a load of this; all right, if you get stopped by a cop in Germany, it's illegal for them to search you. I mean that's a right the cops in Germany don't have.
Jules:    Oh, man, I'm goin', that's all there is to it. I'm fuckin' goin'.
Vincent:    I know, baby, you'd dig it the most.
#28 by skalmanxl
2002-02-28 15:53:32
Games, operating systems, CPUs, countries...


people, races, opionions, we just have to face it that alot of idiots have access to other things then padded cells and precription medications.

Yeah, I don't understand the polarization on games either.  I own both UT and Quake3 - I enjoy them both for different reasons.  What does that make me?  bi?  :)


You own UT (shocking announcement of the day). To be honest. Gamers in general do tend to be really narrowminded and ignorant towards diffrent things. They do like to contend in digital forms of penis measurements, such as, competing in which games is the best. I myself, can play more then one game, too bad that young people (mostly, not all the time) can't too.

*Welcome to the land of the digital*
#29 by Warren Marshall
2002-02-28 15:58:21
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
You own UT (shocking announcement of the day).

Hey, I was working at Legend when UT came out ... I bought a copy just like everyone else.

I am a magnificent three toed sloth.
#30 by Caliban
2002-02-28 16:04:06
gunnar@caliban.de www.kaliban.org
@coda re:"so 60 years down the road, germany is still a police state..."

now that is a wee bit exaggerated...

»Reality can be useful«
#31 by Morn
2002-02-28 16:09:21
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
Also, a lot of people confuse what is going on here with "censorship". Please, stop that! Apples and oranges.

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#32 by Sgt Hulka
2002-02-28 16:11:15
#6 Warren Says "This surprised us (Epic) when it happened ... I guess we always knew it would at some point, but it was amazing that it took this long."


If you look at the UT box, all the warriors look like robots, perhaps they never installed the game because of the fact that they didn't index Half-Life because all baddies were replaced with robots.  Just a guess.  Who knows.  Perhaps all the censors in Germany are too busy playing 0l$en Fashion Desiger and can't devote an adequate amount of time to properly perform their job duties.

.....Another 0l$en Approved +12 Post!
#33 by "flamethrower"
2002-02-28 16:23:58
In principle, I don't mind the government declaring things like "brown" music or ultra-violent splatter movies as "18+ only". In a perfect world, I would be very much against giving the government any control, but the sad truth is that you can't simply count on parents doing the right thing, since so many parents are fucking stupid.


The Irish/UK/Dutch system works okay. It goes like this (from the UK POV).

1. The publisher of a game HAS to give it to a censor board right from the start. None of this "out for X months" mlarkey.

2. If it has above-kid content, it is labeled as such, with an minimum purchase age, like "15", or "16", or "18", depending on the country and the content.

3. If it is to be banned (fail to get the strictest available rating) there is an appeal process, and the courts (Carmageddon's makers used this to get red blood in their game - they won - which also gives legal prescedent to other game makers and has made the British board more lienient).

4. The LAW mades it illegal to sell the game to under-agers. It is illegal to advertise adult products in inapprorpiate places. For a magazine to review/advertise they would have to show the vast majority of their readership were "of age". With PC magazines this is not difficult, PC ZONE in the UK found it's average readership age was 27.

5. Parents are permitted to buy an above-age flim/video/game for their children if they wish. That's the drawback to fucking retards being able to fuck in a free fucking society.

6. Avoids Oz/German over-protection and USA lack-of-protection.


At the risk of drawing down more flamey anti-Aussie rants, the BPjS is a bit like the regimen the Australian government instituted for online pornography a year or two ago.


Liberal Australians are about as respresented by the Australian Goverment as German Jews were represented by the German Goverment circa 1945. Australia has a LOT of heat-baked redknecks, and rednecks vary from the okay to the not-okay. Witty Australians find life more tollerable in London than Sydney. There's a reason Germaine Gree and Clive James - much though they say they love Australia - love it so much they decided to get the Fuck out and never come the Fuck back except Vactations.  Yes Oz has lots of Brit immigrants, but the "whiney" end of the market I'm told.

From immigration to censorship, the Australian politicans have show themselves to be arrogant, hypocritical, despicable, massively right-wing, bastards. I hope their get collective skin cancer and die slowly and horribly. But that's just me.

It's fun to Flame ya mont for the evils of your goverment. Want out? Join the revolution.


What does that make me?  bi?  :)


I'll resist attacking on the grounds you reminded me of one of the funiest jokes every told. A huge, huge, fat London bitch gets up on comedy-night stage. With the same vocal tone, she started to say "I am, by and large, a calm person'. But she didn't. The "a clam person" is the example of what she might have said. ""I am, by and large, ...", it took the audience a few seconds for it to settle in, especially as it sounded like a fuller-sentance cut-short. It was brilliant. Launched the rest of her routine, but, alas, not any career I'm aware of.
#34 by Gunp01nt
2002-02-28 16:24:27
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Hulka:
Perhaps all the censors in Germany are too busy playing 0l$en Fashion Desiger and can't devote an adequate amount of time to properly perform their job duties.

no, they're all playing Autobahn Racer.

<<< Do you believe in a god that tells you lies or do you believe in me? >>>
#35 by JMCDaveL
2002-02-28 16:31:32
Something niggled me, Twisted Metal Black is not a Carmageddon clone. :P

Morn, if the Index isn't censorship, then what is? If you can't even list the game on a website, then doesn't that equal censorship?

--jmc
#36 by m0nty
2002-02-28 16:34:28
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
OK, I'll bite, if only to see how far Flamey's post-fu has deteriorated.

Witty Australians find life more tollerable in London than Sydney.

You have to be witty when you're suffering from hypothermia.

There's a reason Germaine Gree and Clive James - much though they say they love Australia - love it so much they decided to get the Fuck out and never come the Fuck back except Vactations.  Yes Oz has lots of Brit immigrants, but the "whiney" end of the market I'm told.

Then it should be perfect for you, Flamey! I've got a spare bit of linoleum in my place of you want to escape the war, plagues, pestilence and famine in Europe for a holiday (not vacation, that's a Yanqui word). We have up to date episodes of Neighbours here, you know!

It's fun to Flame ya mont for the evils of your goverment. Want out? Join the revolution.

Is that the one that's going to be televised? I can't find it on my 52-channel cable provider.
#37 by "flamethrower"
2002-02-28 16:34:46
now that is a wee bit exaggerated...


All democracies are police states. Every single byte, every single word, is filtered thourgh Echelon. They have the bandwith and the processing power (hell sir, they had that twenty years go). Fuck with the state or a VIP and the state fucks with you, and harder. Get a seed, grow a plant at home, cut that plant down, roll that plant up, and smoke it, and you can get a longer jail sentance that raping children (and it's not like you even got to ejaculate).

Police are the only thing in any state stopping the oiks from slitting the throats of the elites.
#38 by Morn
2002-02-28 16:37:14
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
JMC, let's not talk about websites since nothing is 100% sure in that area, but let's imagine PlanetCrap was a TV show -- yes, I could talk about Quake 3, Unreal Tournament and RtCW, just like I could show boobs or 18+ movies. I just wouldn't be allowed to do it during the day.

The problem is not that we are "getting censored", but that games that are put on the Index are not allowed to be advertised, which includes being featured in gaming mags/shows/websites, TO MINORS. And since nobody can control who sees/reads mags/shows/sites, they'd rather not feature them at all.

In a shop, you could easily set up an "18+" section (like in video stores) and put all the indexed games in there -- no problem.

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#39 by Greg
2002-02-28 16:37:15
Caliban and Morn:

I'm surprised that GTA3 isn't banned. It has more objectionable content than UT, Q3 and RtCW put together. Fun game, but it falls along the lines of "how did they get away with that?"...

Greg
#40 by "enyak"
2002-02-28 16:39:02
I never quite got that, why does, playing one game, have to eliminate playing the other? Pure stupidity, diffrent taste, or narrowminded gamers...


Easy to explain when you look at console systems as an example. People want to feel good and vindicated about stuff they buy (marketing knows and uses that a lot). Especially since their budget might only cover one of the options. The last thing they want is having doubts whether or not they bought the "right" thing. Listening to other people rave about how cool the option they passed on is, is bound to create trouble.
#41 by Morn
2002-02-28 16:39:54
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
I'm surprised, too.

FYI, the German version of GTA3 doesn't have any blood, unless you set your PS2's as well as GTA3's language settings to "English".

Either way, remember that in order to have a game put on the Index, someone needs to send in an application, which then needs to be processed. It's a length process, and who knows, maybe it's already happening for GTA3. Maybe nobody has sent in an application yet. *shrug*

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#42 by Gunp01nt
2002-02-28 16:41:18
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Can't a game company protest being put in the Index?

<<< Do you believe in a god that tells you lies or do you believe in me? >>>
#43 by Gunp01nt
2002-02-28 16:42:14
supersimon33@hotmail.com
BTW why does the comment textarea suddenly expand a bit to the right when I type something in it?

<<< Do you believe in a god that tells you lies or do you believe in me? >>>
#44 by Morn
2002-02-28 16:42:16
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
Here's something they should put on, say, the European Xbox box. "If you buy Nintendo's console, you're gay." :-P

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#45 by Morn
2002-02-28 16:43:05
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
BTW why does the comment textarea suddenly expand a bit to the right when I type something in it?

IE gets confused easily by the <textarea> being "100%" wide. I'll try to fix it.

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#46 by "flamethrower"
2002-02-28 16:48:33
Then it should be perfect for you, Flamey! I've got a spare bit of linoleum in my place of you want to escape the war, plagues, pestilence and famine in Europe for a holiday.


My PLAN is to MOVE to New Zealand, or failing that, Australia (and use an Oz licence to get into NZ - usually it's the other way round!). I'll certainly come and VISIT you though. ;-)

It's not going to be for a while. I'm in Europe saving like buggary to move down there and purchase property on arrival (your collective Pacific economies mean I can buy a house and a quarter-acre section for roughly the price of a new car here). So when an IT contract gets extended, it's tempting to cling to it. Espcially as coffeshop culture has yet to bore me. :D   Besides, between the move from Europe to South Pacific, I plan to spend six months, maybe year, in Thailand in a boxing training camp. I've seen Once Were Warriors. FUCK arriving in NZ pussy-tough.
#47 by skalmanxl
2002-02-28 17:13:51
Morn, if the Index isn't censorship, then what is? If you can't even list the game on a website, then doesn't that equal censorship?


Since censorship is when a certain work is being altered in some way, the index is merely a form of restriction.

I gotta say that I actually like it here in Sweden, the only thing that the censorship cuts in, is violent pornmovies. The last movie to contain any form of alteration (besides violence porn), was Casino (Robert DeNiro, Joe Pesci etc etc), but after that, all movies have been released free from any form of censorship. If a distributor wants to release a movie which earlier contained some form of cuts or similar, they simply have to apply for the cuts to be released...and voilá. On the other note, not many movie distrubutors (specially not the small ones) do this...thus resulting in my copy of Zombie Flesheaters being totally butchered beyond recognizion. Odox is evil.

*Welcome to the land of the digital*
#48 by Post-It
2002-02-28 17:20:07
keithlee@speakeasy.net
*sigh* Why do people seem to think they can go to some "exotic" foreign country, spend 6 months-1 year training, and come out as a completely untouchable badass? Real martial skills are acquired through years of diligent practice, day in, day out. Sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's boring. You just have to stick it out. I also find it amusing that people seem to think the quality of instruction is always better if it is acquired in Asia. I guess it's impossible that quality instructors moved from Asia to other countries, or that a "round-eye" studied extensively in Asia or under a highly trained instructor elsewhere and *gasp* decided to move home and open a dojo, dojung, etc. IF you are really serious about studying any martial art, the best time to start is NOW, and the best place to train is where you are.

Go out, look at all the schools in your area, find a style & instructor (a good instructor is more important than any style) that you like and will stick with, and just do it.
#49 by zimbardo_ugly
2002-02-28 17:26:10
zimbardo_ugly@hotmail.com
Am I the only one who feels certain that the German "out of sight" method has to backfire sooner or later? It is beginning to resemble nazi media filters all over again.

- skazal Rzhevskij i razmazal govno po bil'jardnomu stolu. ...
#50 by skalmanxl
2002-02-28 17:28:29
Am I the only one who feels certain that the German "out of sight" method has to backfire sooner or later? It is beginning to resemble nazi media filters all over again.


While I don't really want to stretch to that extent to call it that, it does seem really harsh. To a certain extent, they do stick their head in the sand, if you can't see it, it don't exist.

*Welcome to the land of the digital*
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Kein Unreal Tournament, jawohl!

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
P O S T   A   C O M M E N T

You need to be logged in to post a comment here. If you don't have an account yet, you can create one here. Registration is free.
C R A P T A G S
Simple formatting: [b]bold[/b], [i]italic[/i], [u]underline[/u]
Web Links: [url=www.mans.de]Cool Site[/url], [url]www.mans.de[/url]
Email Links: [email=some@email.com]Email me[/email], [email]some@email.com[/email]
Simple formatting: Quoted text: [quote]Yadda yadda[/quote]
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
There are currently 0 people browsing this site. [Details]