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Hey, Stupid!
February 28th 2002, 05:16 CET by jjz

Have you felt that games of late haven't been very good?  Apparently it's your fault.
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Home » Topic: Hey, Stupid!

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#1 by yotsuya
2002-02-28 05:18:22
It's not my fault. Honest.

Arizona Diamondbacks 2001 World Series Champions
#2 by Lumberjack
2002-02-28 05:19:26
joek@pckconsult.com
I voted no, and the next refresh of the main page it was here.....

Now....what was the question of the answer to the anwered question?
#3 by Narcopolo
2002-02-28 05:26:23
Curiouser and curiouser.  I voted no too, no offense jjz.

Is it just that there only needs to be a certain number of yes votes before it goes forward?   Others have said it has to be within an acceptable proportion.  Is it the up/down ratio after ten votes or something?

On the other hand, it's great that people are submitting topics, I hope people don't get turned off of doing it by the flood.  I feel compelled to think one up now, and sit on it.
#4 by Post-It
2002-02-28 05:27:22
keithlee@speakeasy.net
THIS is the Worst. Topic. Ever.

I remember reading & talking about this so long ago to even dredge the memory cause me to go into a fetal position. Morn, when you have to to spare from the complete ass-kicking coding you are doing for PC, could you please adjust the voting threshold or whatever?

PS:
I saw a story on VoodooExtreme about this 3D porn game. Good to know that those ex-Dynamix guys are still being productive!
#5 by Post-It
2002-02-28 05:28:08
keithlee@speakeasy.net
(Yeah me too, no offense jzz, it's just not my cup of tea)
#6 by crash
2002-02-28 05:29:16
five bucks says the author of the linked piece likes adventure games best. and i love the stream-of-consciousness style writing, where logic takes a back seat to tons o' comma splices and 700-word nine-subject sentences. with such classics as this mind-bender:

Actually, no one knows why we do play games, but reality has nothing to do with it.

if you don't know why, you can't eliminate any possibility. personally, i'm of the mind that reality has nearly everything to do with why we play games... but since i both play and write about them, i'm stupid. according to Captain Conundrum, anyway.

Unfortunately, the comedies they made as talkies were never as funny as the silent comedies. In fact, to this day no one has made a movie as funny as the silent comedies.

gotta love it. this one's so ludicrous, all i have to do is quote it. and finally, this one's priceless:

Can you believe I couldn’t get a magazine to publish this article? However, I only tried two print magazines and one on-line magazine. The general feeling was that the article was too contentious.

actually, any decent editor would take one look at this tripe and shitcan it, laughing all the way, because it's pretty much lunacy. he might have a point in there somewhere, but it's so full of hot air, misinformation, and outright lies it's difficult to take it seriously.

thanks for the link, though, jjz. got a nice chuckle out of this, and it's been a pretty shitty day otherwise.

i wonder if the author hangs out with the timecube folks.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#7 by _Fury_
2002-02-28 05:33:59
ajhill@wi.rr.com
Well, games may be stupid, but Jet Set Radio Future isn't. Film at 11

Witty Quote
#8 by Caryn
2002-02-28 05:34:53
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
I voted yes, but I would have liked to have seen more commentary on the topic by jjz.

So the author of the article apparently discounts most of the titles currently topping the best seller lists -- things like The Sims and the Tycoon games. He seems to think that all games are either Quake clones, Tony Hawk clones, or Mario Kart clones.

In the 70s and 80s, people of all ages played video games. Today they are played almost exclusively by teen-age boys or by young children.


Not a single piece of reference data to back up this conclusion and make me believe that he's researched his facts. I'd say that the most visible games out there are played by this audience, but I don't know if that equates to the majority audience (which I'm actually curious to know -- I should probably find that out given my line of work, but the audience he's referring to is actually the one I work with, so I've never had a need to find out). I doubt the average Sims player is a teenage boy, so his statement that "game companies will not publish a game unless it appeals to this core audience" is patently false. I can go to my own company's web site and find more games that not, I'd guess, that don't appeal to that audience. (I could be wrong, but I think I'll go look and see.)

I'll admit that the action genre could use some more life and originality breathed into it, but this guy's article is way off base. It's also poorly written; the use of the word "stupid" in this context -- or practically in any context -- in what was meant to be a professional article just comes off as sounding like it was written by a 5 year old.

- Caryn
Everyone has a signature but me.
#9 by Bailey
2002-02-28 05:36:31
I saw a story on VoodooExtreme about this 3D porn game. Good to know that those ex-Dynamix guys are still being productive!

Man, the president has washboard abs.

Sir, you are seriously hunting my wumpus.
#10 by crash
2002-02-28 05:37:26
does he make you hot, Bailey?

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#11 by Caryn
2002-02-28 05:37:42
carynlaw@pacbell.net http://www.hellchick.net
He was just pooooouuured into that uniform!

- Caryn
Everyone has a signature but me.
#12 by Bailey
2002-02-28 05:38:10
crash

five bucks says the author of the linked piece likes adventure games best.

Good point. I bet this guy agrees with Roberta Williams' little "too many stupid people killed the gaming industry" speech.

Sir, you are seriously hunting my wumpus.
#13 by Bailey
2002-02-28 05:38:47
crash

does he make you hot, Bailey?

Well... y'know... the grey hair is pretty distinguished...

Sir, you are seriously hunting my wumpus.
#14 by Matthew Gallant
2002-02-28 05:51:23
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com
I agree with crash. This is a really awful piece of writing. This is the first topic I voted yes for, though.

Marketing is a crutch for mediocrity and a handicap to excellence.
#15 by Bezzy
2002-02-28 06:12:54
painberry@hotmail.com http://www.antifactory.org
I voted yes since I wanted to draw attention to this awfulness. Writing off the use of technology in games, merely because of the direction they have taken due to current social trends is idiotic.

I agree with some of the things mentioned... paradigm shifts occur far too rarely, and the industry is certainly dragged along by its cash lust, but then he'll say something absolutely unjustifyable and the bubble bursts. He comes off as obnoxious and pretty bigoted. He considers himself a "true" game designer, (as opposed to those in the industry who can't possibly know anything about game design) so shouldn't he see video games are merely an under/mis-utilized avenue of games? Hypocrit!

At the end of the day, games are just ideas - rules and choices, and the form in which they manifest themselves (whether that be video game or board game) are only relevant to marketers, not to the core game design itself. Slandering and writing off not just an industry but a whole segment of possible games, merely because they're computerized, is not the action of a "true" game designer.

I say, viva la difference.

There is no just cause that a fool will not follow. HALLO MISTAH!
#16 by None-1a
2002-02-28 06:15:05
Not a single piece of reference data to back up this conclusion and make me believe that he's researched his facts. I'd say that the most visible games out there are played by this audience, but I don't know if that equates to the majority audience (which I'm actually curious to know -- I should probably find that out given my line of work, but the audience he's referring to is actually the one I work with, so I've never had a need to find out).


Action games do tend to be the most visible and do tend to be aimed just at 16-26 year old males (hey it's an easy market, you can sell dried bird crap if you paint boobies on it, that and the group tends to have the most dispossible income). But the last study I read had mid20-late30 women being the majority online gamers (of course that one ends up sqewed by the likes of shockwave.com and the free games on MSN gaming zone*). What'd be interesting would be a break down of the majority age groups by genre and platform, rather then the constant genereic 'gaming' heading every one seams to love treating like one market.

*Acctauly the article talked quite a bit about the zone so I'd wager that is where they culled 99% of their figures from to begin with.
#17 by Gunp01nt
2002-02-28 13:10:47
supersimon33@hotmail.com
the tradeoff of the submission bin: more topics/less interesting shit.

<<< Do you believe in a god that tells you lies or do you believe in me? >>>
#18 by Duality
2002-02-28 13:11:40
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
How much for your dried bird poop boobies, None?

These same bitter old fucks are in every fan-based community.  Its the same exact thing with anime.  As the industry grows and grows (whether it be full of crap or quality, is irregardless), they maintain the idea that nothing made after 19xx is any good.

They use about the same half-assed, bullshit examples, as well.

-duality
... disguised as a genderless burrow owl ... 6.0!
#19 by m0nty
2002-02-28 13:50:44
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
People, people. The article is written by an inventor of card and board games. An inventor of card and board games, fer Chrissake. His games include What's That On My Head, Epaminondas and Ultima (??). The crowning achievement of his life was to get the rules of a couple of his card games into Hoyle's Rules Of Games. The man was born in 19-frickin-33. That makes him almost SEVENTY years old. The only reason he thinks there haven't been any good comedies since silent films is because he can remember when they first came out. He lives in Florida, which figures, since he is OF RETIREMENT AGE.

Since when does a person like this qualify to comment on video games?
#20 by Morn
2002-02-28 14:07:07
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
On how well (or not) the submission bin is working out: Remember that we're still testing things here. I'll be carefully adjusting variables like the vote threshold and the required "yes" vote ratio over time.

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#21 by "flamethrower"
2002-02-28 14:30:48
People, people. The article is written by an inventor of card and board games. An inventor of card and board games, fer Chrissake. His games include What's That On My Head, Epaminondas and Ultima (??). The crowning achievement of his life was to get the rules of a couple of his card games into Hoyle's Rules Of Games. The man was born in 19-frickin-33. That makes him almost SEVENTY years old. The only reason he thinks there haven't been any good comedies since silent films is because he can remember when they first came out. He lives in Florida, which figures, since he is OF RETIREMENT AGE.


There's an old fella who has toured European GENCONs for the last thousand years. I went to some GCs a few years back, there he is trying to flog "SAVE THE PRESIDENT". It became the standing joke never to make eye contact with the old cadger. He pulled stunts like get the tannoy people to announce "ONE MORE PLAYER FOR SAVE THE PRESIDENT IN THE HALL", eventually the announcements caused event-wide mass hysterical laughter.

Save the President is a tedious geometric move-the-counters to dice game, fun for about one third of one game, before you fully understand the rules (roll dice, move counter, pray someone walks behind you and jab scissors in your neck).

I went back to Gencon a couple of years back, had a great time. I saw the STP bloke and he was STILL frigging pimping it. Rumour has it he invested his personal money getting the games made and how he has to sell them all, one at a freaking time. It's like a self-made Hell or something.
#22 by Darkseid-D
2002-02-28 14:33:06
rogerboal@hotmail.com
and you qualify m0nty, why exactly?


This thread is a Mornstrocity


Ds


Pastor of Muppets

Never argue with an idiot, theyll drag you down onto their level, then beat you with experience.
#23 by PrfBrain
2002-02-28 15:08:49
brain@arn.net
Borrowing a bit from the article. This topic is incredibly stupid.

Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you.
#24 by m0nty
2002-02-28 15:24:34
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
and you qualify m0nty, why exactly?

I'm wondering that myself after seeing a flamey post quoting me and not ripping me to shreds. His post-fu has certainly weakened. In answer to your question, I was born within the last 30 years, and I haven't started my second childhood. I could also wave the piece of paper bearing my journalism degree, but that would be arrogant.
#25 by Martin
2002-02-28 15:42:07
http://www.mocol.nu
I would like to become a journalist but methinks it's too much work. Perhaps in another life...

-- Martin
"Burger me!"
#26 by skalmanxl
2002-02-28 16:06:11
I would like to become a journalist but methinks it's too much work. Perhaps in another life...


You could get rich pretending you're John Carmack you know...

*Welcome to the land of the digital*
#27 by Martin
2002-02-28 16:18:05
http://www.mocol.nu
#26 by skalmanxl: Nope, I only look remotely like him in that one particular pic. 8)

-- Martin
"Burger me!"
#28 by Whisp
2002-02-28 16:21:08
New rule, no more complaining if you don't like the topic.  Please?  If you think it's pointless, all you have to do is not read it.  You have enough self control for that, don't you?

And remember, just because it was in the bin doesn't mean it got voted up.  Morn may have exerted his despotic powers and moved it himself.
#29 by Gabe
2002-02-28 16:29:28
http://www.dartpublishing.com
So, the current theory is that if you liked the topic and voted yes, then everyone else felt the same and it was approved, but if you didn't like the topic and voted no, then Morn must have moved it up?
#30 by Morn
2002-02-28 16:31:57
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
:-P

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#31 by jjz
2002-02-28 16:36:55
I am crying on the inside.
#32 by m0nty
2002-02-28 16:41:17
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
Same here jjz, but I am also laughing on the outside.
#33 by Matt Perkins
2002-02-28 17:02:05
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
#25 by Martin
You to can be a "journalist"...start up your own website, write brief articles with no facts, but present the article as non-fiction and you're in.  :)

Oh wait, I'm thinking of thechosen.com, my bad.

-wzrd
stupid vowels
#34 by Greg
2002-02-28 18:10:27
I can say I agree with one point of the article. I agree with the last point, not that gamers or developers are stupid, but that computer technology has caused gameplay to take a backseat to the graphics. Sure, there are plenty of good gameplay games now. Back then the graphics sucked and it had to be about the gameplay.

Look at all the console games. The second generation of games tend to be better than the initial batch because developers have adjusted to playing around with the technology, and can focus a bit more effort on gameplay. The best example is the PS2. The 2nd generation games starting showing up around the time of the XBox/GameCube releases, and the PS2 games were better than the XBox/GC games. So it made people choose between the new thing, and the better games. Guess who has sold the most since November?

Maybe its just that we were all young kids and thats the way it was and we liked it, we loved it. And now all we do is complain because of nostalgia.

Greg
#35 by crash
2002-02-28 18:30:58
m0nty:

I could also wave the piece of paper bearing my journalism degree, but that would be arrogant.

i thought of getting a journalism degree at one point. took a couple of classes to test the waters and see what was being taught.

decided i'd rather learn how to write properly.

and hey Morn, the text box does weird things when i post--it starts out at the "old default" width, but when i type into it and it "reformats" the text (like when you hard-return a line or whatever), it expands to fill the default page width percentage. then when the page reloads, it goes back to old-default size. not inconveniencing, just weird.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#36 by Gunp01nt
2002-02-28 21:28:58
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Greg:
Maybe its just that we were all young kids and thats the way it was and we liked it, we loved it. And now all we do is complain because of nostalgia.

well the guy who wrote the article definitely seems like a militant 'nostaligist' :)

<<< Do you believe in a god that tells you lies or do you believe in me? >>>
#37 by _Fury_
2002-02-28 21:38:00
ajhill@wi.rr.com
Apropos of absolutely nothing, but game-related as this topic seems to be:

Jet Set Radio Future Impressions

Alright - I'm not ordinarily one to write up impressions / reviews, but I've got enough to say about this game that it's probably worth a few minutes of typing. When I made my last savegame before heading to bed last night, my played time showed as 5 hours 22 minutes, so that's how much my impressions are worth.

First off, this game just oozes style. The art, the sound, the animation, the music - it's all at the very top of the heap. Frankly, I've never before seen a game be 'urban' and 'hip'. In fact, the thought of a game trying is enough to make me start laughing - but somehow JSRF pulls it off, flawlessly. The art design, to me, seems very much "what people in the 1950s thought 2000 would look like"; I can't verbalize it better than that. It's definately got it's own aesthetic, which is why it works without seeming trite.

The first thing you'll notice when turning on the game (besides the song, "The Concept of Love", more on the music later) is of course the cell-shaded graphics. I was dubious about the whole cell-shading thing at first; I thought the point of modern graphics hardware was to not look two-dimensional. I was wrong though - the graphics are crazy good. It's like a living comic book.

The second thing you'll likely notice is the music. I'm not quite sure what to write about it. It's not like anything that I listen to really, but I still like it - a lot. There are 30ish songs on the soundtrack, all of it licensed music. It's got a lot of wierd japanese pop and hip-hop in it. Again, like the graphics - it's something that would (to me at least) seem on paper to be really bad, but somehow ends up being really good.

But how does it play? Well....

The levels are huge, the tricks are large, the things to do are many, the time limits are non-existant. So far I've had to: tag, race, play flag-capture, fight police, fight tanks, chase a gang, and explore. I've managed to unlock 3 characters (out of 24 playable). I've only seen about 1/4 of the areas, and I've not finished the challenges on any of them yet. And if I ever do beat it all, there's up to 4 player multi.

Is it better than the mighty Halo? Well, them's fighting words there, and I'll stay out of that argument. It's in the same weight class though.

Witty Quote
#38 by Bailey
2002-02-28 21:42:33
Sounds better than Halo!

Sir, you are seriously hunting my wumpus.
#39 by crash
2002-02-28 22:50:01
can't imagine that you'd like JSRF, Fury. i mean, the avatar totally didn't give it away or anything. and it's "cel-shading", btw. nfi why it's only one L, but there it is.

one question i do have about it for you, that i couldn't tell from the shots: how does the cel-shading compare to that of JGR? smoother, cleaner, brighter, duller, dimmer, blurrier? am curious as hell to know how it stacks up against the original. thanks.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#40 by Duality
2002-02-28 22:52:20
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
That's all well and good, but what SYSTEM IS IT FOR?!?!

-duality
... disguised as a genderless burrow owl ... 6.0!
#41 by None-1a
2002-02-28 22:53:34
Duality it's an X-box game.
#42 by Sgt Hulka
2002-02-28 22:54:16
I have Jet Grind Radio for the Dreamcast, and I love it.

.....Another 0l$en Approved +12 Post!
#43 by crash
2002-02-28 22:56:59
as do i, Hulka, amazingly enough. my DC collection is sparse, but i don't have a game in it i haven't played extensively. i love my dreamcast. got a regular model and a japanese model (won't need that much longer, but it's nice to have around), and next on my wish-list is a dev box.

- if you can laugh at it, you can live with it.
- "Hey, how 'bout this: fuck you." -LPMiller
#44 by Morn
2002-02-28 23:01:47
morn@planetcrap.com http://hmans.net
Mmmm. 16:9 Starlancer.

Hendrik "Morn" Mans • morn@planetcrap.com • admin/coder/kraut
#45 by _Fury_
2002-02-28 23:06:28
ajhill@wi.rr.com
I think it's one 'L' in cel-shading (thanks for the catch, I need to proofread better it seems) because it's referencing the 'cels' used in traditional animation. Why they are spelled that way is anyone's guess.

Anyhow, I don't have a dreamcast so I can't answer the questions about how it compares. I can say that it's very very smooth, very vibrant, and runs at a rock-solid 60fps. It also has a lot of nifty effects like motion blur, transparency, etc. But basically, it just looks, sounds, and plays good.

And ya, my icon gives away my bias. Although - to be honest, the only reason I have this one is because I was doing a little preview reading on the net when morn told us in irc that the avatars were enabled. The only images I had handy were either Rei Ayanami from Evangelion (on my desktop) or JSRF graphics from the website I was reading. I decided I'd look silly as a 14 year old anime girl, so I took the blue pill.

Witty Quote
#46 by Narcopolo
2002-02-28 23:16:52
Ah the Dreamcast.  _Fury_, it's well worth it, it's <$50 now, and the games can be found for $10 to $20.

I've been making time lately for Crazy Taxi ($7 used), and Armada ($10).  

I wasn't as excited about Jet Grind Radio as I thought I would be though.  Still have to find Grandia II, then with that and Skies of Arcadia i'll have cashed all the RPG choices for that platform.  Any other RPGs or even adventure games I might have missed?
#47 by Bailey
2002-02-28 23:24:28
Hrm. If I can track down a copy of JGR, maybe I should pick up a DC.

Sir, you are seriously hunting my wumpus.
#48 by "Hoe Muffin"
2002-02-28 23:33:49
poontanger@hotmail.com
I've got both, and the X-Box version is more vibrant (in terms of colors), and the characters are somewhat more defined. It's sorta hard to say, since a lot of the game is spent moving around quickly, and you get a "motion-blur" line effect, which is pretty damned cool. And the Turbo-Boost is just purrty. It definitely is more arcadey and flashy then the first one, but the best thing about it is that there isn't a time limit. Still, I think it's noticeably smoother, though I can't provide hard numbers or anything like that. Great game.

Narcopolo: What about Shenmue? One series I would suggest, if and ONLY IF you are a fanboy of giant robots, is Super RObot Wars ALpha. I'm a fanboy, so I loved it. My friend wasn't, so he hated it.
#49 by _Fury_
2002-03-01 00:06:48
ajhill@wi.rr.com
I wish I could find a dreamcast to buy, I'd do it in a second.

Witty Quote
#50 by Duality
2002-03-01 00:08:32
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
JGR was the first game I grabbed when I picked up my DC a few months ago.

Regrettably, I never did get into it too much.  I guess I just found the control too difficult.  I'll probably try again when I've gotten more used to analog sticks.

-duality
... disguised as a genderless burrow owl ... 6.0!
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