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New System Shock!
February 22nd 2002, 10:16 CET by Paul Montgomery

A guy calling himself Chase "Scharmers" Dahl is working on a new freeware version of System Shock (which, if the previous thread is anything to go by, holds a special place in many Crappers' hearts) under the working title of SS2K.

His company, Snakecharmer Software, is a self-confessed "one man band", and the game title gives an indication of his Smartian tendencies. The site for SS2K includes a FAQ, which features this explanation of how he will try to achieve full DirectX8.0 compatibility:

What graphic engine will SS2K use?
SS2K will use Pie In The Sky's GCS3D engine.  You, in the back, shut up. Look at it this way: System Shock used a kludgey tile-and-sprite-based 3D DOS engine.  GCS3D is a kludgey tile-and-sprite-based 3D DX8 engine.  (In all fairness, GCS3D can support true 3D objects.)  GCS3D also has a workable inventory system, vital for any decent remake of System Shock.  A couple of notes: I've built System Shock's Medical level in both UnrealEd and Worldcraft, but the simple sector-editor of GCS3D is far easier and more effective than either, at least in building System Shock geometry.  Besides, I've been playing with GCS for years, so I know how to get the most out of the engine.  Trust me on this one -- I won't be able to recreate everything in System Shock, but I'll come close.

Thanks RPGDot for the link. So, is Chase on a winner here? Can a DX8-native SS2 possibly recreate the same experience as the old System Shock? Why would you want to recreate it, seeing as the Looking Glass originals of SS and SS2 are to be found in many bargain bins anyway? Is he tempting fate (and copyright lawyers) by tampering with a legend? Would you download it? Will he ever finish it?
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#1 by "Ashiran"
2002-02-22 10:40:09
silver@ashrain.net www.ashrain.net
I still need to get my hand on SS2. Anyone?
#2 by "Ashiran"
2002-02-22 10:48:43
silver@ashrain.net www.ashrain.net
And btw. while I am a strong supporter of game remakes I don't think that a remake of something as "new" as System Shock 2 is warrented. Especially not because of previous mentioned reason of it being in bargain bins everywhere. Except the Netherlands that is.
#3 by "MaverickUK"
2002-02-22 11:28:47
peter.bridger@tpg.co.uk http://www.thisstrife.com/
Shock! NVIDIA won't be helping build the X-Box2!

--
Mav
\"What kinda shithole planet is this!?\"
#4 by "MaverickUK"
2002-02-22 11:29:53
peter.bridger@tpg.co.uk http://www.thisstrife.com/
Ashiran (#2):
I don't think that a remake of something as "new" as System Shock 2 is warrented


Sure, but this is a remark of the original System Shock, not the second one. Like a zDoom port, etc..

--
Mav
\"What kinda shithole planet is this!?\"
#5 by "jafd"
2002-02-22 11:29:59
kallisti@hell.com http://jafd.isfuckingbrilliant.com
Nice topic, i'm told. But what does this have to do with blah?
#6 by "Theseus"
2002-02-22 11:31:47
#3 I have my doubts.
#7 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2002-02-22 13:30:22
Darkseid@Captured.com www.sluggy.com
well if they can remake Ultima 1 with Garriots blessing ..

and since TLG no longer exist (and the original publishers of SS are also gone)

and that its also officially in the abandonware category.....


More power to him if he can pull it off, tho for some reason I think the Serious Sam engine could be a good choice for doing such a remake...


Ds
#8 by "Warren Marshall"
2002-02-22 14:34:09
warren_AT_epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Isn't scharmers one of the trolls that follows Derek Smart around?

A one man band remaking System Shock?  Sorry, doesn't seem likely to happen ...
#9 by "Duality"
2002-02-22 14:36:08
http://www.opencrap.org
I never got the chance to play SS (SS2, while I own it, still seems to elude my freetime).  But from the way its been made to sound, the ambience like the audio logs are some of the most memorable moments of the game.  And if he's not able to put those in due to engine limitations, it may detract for a lot of the people this game is being made for.

-Duailty
#10 by "Warren Marshall"
2002-02-22 14:38:35
warren_AT_epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Another thing ... I don't know much about this engine he's using, but looking at the page it doesn't look like it's able to cast shadows.  That would sort of hurt the mood wouldn't it?

What I mean is, it has lights and it has darkness but I don't see anything casting shadows ... it looks like it's all spherical light with no occlusion.
#11 by "Ashiran"
2002-02-22 15:01:10
silver@ashrain.net www.ashrain.net
#10 by Warren Marshall
That would sort of hurt the mood wouldn't it?

A better description would be that for a game like System Schock the engine would suck ass.
#12 by "CinqO"
2002-02-22 15:19:00
cinqo@zombieworld.com
I can never understand the reasoning behind these recreations.

If you're going to spend all the time creating levels, models, AI, scripting, programming, etc., why not make a new experience instead of one that is already burned into most people's skulls?
#13 by "FunkDrunk"
2002-02-22 15:58:05
jflavius@bellatlantic.net
Forget old games for a moment, and take a look at these.  Movies from a new Capcom game for the Xbox named Tekki (it used to be named BrainBox).

I am not a graphics whore, but those movies are quite amazing.

The downside it that there's a special controller needed to play it.  One that's thrice the size of the Xbox.

Do you think it's worth it?

Funk.
#14 by "Greg"
2002-02-22 15:59:06
greg417@worldnet.att.net http://www.last-gen.com
If they are remaking System Shock, would it be possible to remake Ultima Underworld 1 using the same engine?

Also, the reason for all the remakes is that most people don't keep computers around just to play really old games. Hence, my Dell 800x2 with Win2K can't play all (most?) of those old DOS games. It sure is nice to just run them in Windows (or OS X, or Linux).

Just look at the Exult project. They took that insanely kludgey Ultima 7 and recreated the game so now it can be played on any platform...

Greg
#15 by "Sgt Hulka"
2002-02-22 16:03:18
sgt_hulka@yahoo.com http://www.hulka.com
This just in:

m0nty and I discovered the following fact:

"DNF will be released on "International Planetcrap Day!"

........I always give 110% +12
#16 by "Duality"
2002-02-22 16:17:14
http://www.opencrap.org
#12 CinqO
I can never understand the reasoning behind these recreations.

If you're going to spend all the time creating levels, models, AI, scripting, programming, etc., why not make a new experience instead of one that is already burned into most people's skulls?

I don't know if its always with the intention of giving people the feeling they originally had, so much as it is, giving them the ability to continue to play the old games they love.

I don't play Doom anymore because I get the same feelings of spook and adrenaline as I originally did, I save that for AvP2 or something.

But it is a good game to play for multiplayer and such.  That's why I like the ports, especially when they add new features like Internet play.

I like the idea of a SS remake / port / what have you to a Win32 environment, because I don't know how I'd play an old game like that in Windows XP.  I've not tried any DOS apps within it yet, especially not ones that required soundcard configuration.

-Duailty
#17 by "_Fury_"
2002-02-22 16:31:46
ajhill@wi.rr.com
I, for one, will be importing/buying/otherwise doing whatever it takes to get Tekki and the controller. If my American XBox won't play it due to region issues (I'm told this isn't the case, but who knows) I'll purchase a Japanese XBox.

I've never even been a big fan of mecha games (In fact, I can't think of a single one that I've bought), but that game looks downright sick.
#18 by "m0nty"
2002-02-22 16:41:29
m0nty_au@bigpond.com no fixed abode
Duality (#16):
I like the idea of a SS remake / port / what have you to a Win32 environment, because I don't know how I'd play an old game like that in Windows XP.  I've not tried any DOS apps within it yet, especially not ones that required soundcard configuration.

ADOM plays perfectly well in a DOS window on my XP box, although admittedly because it is a rogue-like it would need less support. Perhaps SS would be OK?

I should say that while SS2 is to be seen on many bargain bin shelves in Australia (I bought it not three months ago for A$19.95), I haven't seen the original SS anywhere. Is it still sold, or can you download the whole thing for free somewhere due to its abandonware status?
#19 by "Eris"
2002-02-22 16:49:21
#13 by FunkDrunk


It'd look rather average without those textures painted on... I do like the motion, but there isn't much detail (poly-wise) in the figure. It'll be interesting to see it when it gets closer to being released. Mecha-wise, Heavy Gear rocked for Deathmatch play. Damn, I still need to find it in the bargain bins...
#20 by "Iazu"
2002-02-22 17:14:37
http://www.opencrap.org
#18 m0nty

ADOM plays perfectly well in a DOS window on my XP box, although admittedly because it is a rogue-like it would need less support. Perhaps SS would be OK?

I should say that while SS2 is to be seen on many bargain bin shelves in Australia (I bought it not three months ago for A$19.95), I haven't seen the original SS anywhere. Is it still sold, or can you download the whole thing for free somewhere due to its abandonware status?

I don't think it's sold anymore, and from what I've seen it's impossible to get running in Win2k and a crap shoot in WinXP (I've only heard of a couple guys that have done it). First there's the soundcard issue, which I got around by using VDMSound, a DOS sound emulator for Win2K. Even then though, the game would crash without fail upon starting the game from the menus, and no one seems to have a workaround for it.

However, there's also this Which is more along the lines of an OpenGL port like JDoom is Doom. Although the creator's taking his sweet time about finishing it.

Lastly, you can download the CD Image for System Shock, and I believe it even has the blessings of some of the creators. Go here for the details. I got most of these links from the Through the Looking Glass forums :)

Damnit had to type this 3 times, Opencrap kept crashing on me when I tried to past some of the links
#21 by "Gabe"
2002-02-22 17:24:35
gabe@opencrap.org http://www.opencrap.org
OpenCrap is teh suck!
#22 by "Iazu"
2002-02-22 17:28:50
http://www.opencrap.org
#21 Gabe
OpenCrap is teh suck!

Nah, I actually like it a lot better than than Crapspy or the webpage (web interface!). Seeing as how this is really the first time it's ever crashed on me in I don't know how many months of use, I have no right to complain :)
#23 by "Gabe"
2002-02-22 17:36:30
gabe@opencrap.org http://www.opencrap.org
Yes you do! This is PlanetCrap, the place to complain about things we have no right to complain about. :)

Sorry it crashed. Some others have reported that problem, but I haven't been able to duplicate it. Maybe I will just make an Xbox version, that way I can be guaranteed of a uniform platform.
#24 by "Ergo"
2002-02-22 17:40:56
stuart_harms@mentor.com http://www.opencrap.org
However, there's also this Which is more along the lines of an OpenGL port like JDoom is Doom. Although the creator's taking his sweet time about finishing it.


That's cool! Hopefully we'll see an actual finished release. I wish more companies out there would release the source code of their old, out-of-print titles. It's nice when enterprising folks engineer them to run on new OSs. The jHexen project, for example, is a marvel.
#25 by "JMCDaveL"
2002-02-22 18:24:16
rdl@muw.edu Sleeping with you
Let's not forget that System Shock's interface has elements that no other fps has, such as advanced movement controls that let you stand at any height, look around corners realistically, etc etc. How is he going to do that? My guess, he's not, he's going to make HAF-LYFE!!!!

--jmc
#26 by "Eris"
2002-02-22 19:16:08
Y'know, why are people mentioning that it's "DX8-native" as if the engine really takes advantage of any of the DX8 benefits? Well... honestly it doesn't LOOK like it, but i'm downloading some of the demos created with it just to make sure I don't looke like a total schmuck. Hasn't this engine been out for *years*? (obviously in different forms.)

I could swear I remember seeing ads for the engine in gaming mags between doom & doomII's time.
#27 by "Bailey"
2002-02-22 19:32:57
www.ashrain.net
When are we getting the Open GL port of OpenCrap, dammit?!

As for this SS remake... whatever. The original game was fun and interesting because it was original. You can't take a model T and put racing stripes on it.
#28 by "Gabe"
2002-02-22 19:34:55
gabe@opencrap.org http://www.opencrap.org
#27 Bailey
When are we getting the Open GL port of OpenCrap, dammit?!

I have some code lying around I could possibly adapt. Do legless Sonic the Hedgehogs scare you?
#29 by "Duality"
2002-02-22 19:42:00
http://www.opencrap.org
#27 Bailey
When are we getting the Open GL port of OpenCrap, dammit?!

As for this SS remake... whatever. The original game was fun and interesting because it was original. You can't take a model T and put racing stripes on it.

Well you can.  Not that it'll be anything more than a Model T with racing stripes.  But technically you can put racing stripes on a Model T.

-Duailty
#30 by "Ergo"
2002-02-22 19:42:30
stuart_harms@mentor.com http://www.opencrap.org
#28 Gabe
#27 Bailey
When are we getting the Open GL port of OpenCrap, dammit?!

I have some code lying around I could possibly adapt. Do legless Sonic the Hedgehogs scare you?


Mmmmm....furry.....
#31 by "JMCDaveL"
2002-02-22 19:58:49
rdl@muw.edu Sleeping with you
Screw the racing stripes, put "TYPE-R" on it!

As for the engine, its a new version of the Pie engine, I would say its sort of like the Quake 2 engine, it even allows Quake 2 models to be imported.

--jmc
#32 by "BobJustBob"
2002-02-22 20:27:18
support@real.com
Hahahaha... I have the original SS on cd and a dos box to run it. Don't you all hate me.
#33 by "Narcopolo"
2002-02-22 20:44:46
The most interesting thing to me about Tekki and it's controller is that it's proof that Microsoft is taking the Japanese market seriously enough to give them fetish inspiring toys.  There may be a quota they have to fill there.    It's very pretty, and even looks like it may have some depth.  My only issue is that the controller is so Tekki specific, it would be better if Microsoft had specified a common joystick that everyone could develop for.  Even if it didn't come with the system, it would be a much better reason to buy one if multiple games supported it.  

This game screams for an arcade version.
#34 by "Narcopolo"
2002-02-22 20:47:59
I'm a bit squeamish about remaking the levels for SS.  It doesn't look like he asked permission from the relevant party, which would be Eidos I think.  Probably because they would say no out of hand, and this way they can both pretend the other doesn't exist.

But the reverse engineering project, that would be a great accomplishment.  I'd be impressed if he saw it through.

Not so long ago, I think in a Slashdot post about Quake 2, John Carmack mentioned that another old game was going to have it's code GPLed as well.  Do any of you know what he was talking about?
#35 by "Eris"
2002-02-22 20:48:53
#30 by Ergo


What a coincidence, I love to cripple furries.

Except then they'd do the movie "Crash", but with multinippled cows with lactating penii and ferrets and shit.

#31 by JMCDaveL

My fav SA photoshop *ever* was the pirate ship with the "CIVIC Type Yarrrrr!" sticker.
#36 by "Matthew Gallant"
2002-02-22 20:50:21
seeker@truemeaningoflife.com http://truemeaningoflife.com
#27 Bailey
As for this SS remake... whatever. The original game was fun and interesting because it was original. You can't take a model T and put racing stripes on it.


The United States Postal Service's "Celebrate the Century" series of stamps somewhat disagrees with you.
#37 by "Matthew Gallant"
2002-02-22 21:07:37
seeker@truemeaningoflife.com http://truemeaningoflife.com
#34 Narcopolo
Not so long ago, I think in a Slashdot post about Quake 2, John Carmack mentioned that another old game was going to have it's code GPLed as well.  Do any of you know what he was talking about?


I'm guessing one or all of the Commander Keen series, because right about the same time 3D Realms announced that they would be giving out a special Christmas gift, which literally by the end of the announcement had been pushed back to New Year's. And then, of course, never materialized. Since Mr. Carmack hasn't made further mention of anything getting GPL'ed, this seems like the only possibility.
#38 by "Sgt Hulka"
2002-02-22 21:16:15
sgt_hulka@yahoo.com http://www.hulka.com
#37 Matthew Gallant
I'm guessing one or all of the Commander Keen series



That's what I was thinking from day one. What other game could it be?  




........I always give 110% +12
#39 by "Creole Ned"
2002-02-22 21:46:43
cned@telus.net
I think ports like JDoom that take the original game and then enhance it can work, if the source material is strong enough. Yes, Doom is a mindless sprite-filled shooter, but with (optional) 3D model support, enhanced lighting, high resolutions and mouselook, it's still fun to romp around in between rounds of other, more modern fare. And best of all, the actual levels remain unchanged, so there's no need to worry that things will be "off". The next version of JDoom even promises 512x512 TGA texture support. :)
#40 by "Ergo"
2002-02-22 21:52:45
stuart_harms@mentor.com http://www.opencrap.org
#34 Narcopolo
I'm a bit squeamish about remaking the levels for SS.  It doesn't look like he asked permission from the relevant party, which would be Eidos I think.  Probably because they would say no out of hand, and this way they can both pretend the other doesn't exist.

But the reverse engineering project, that would be a great accomplishment.  I'd be impressed if he saw it through.

Not so long ago, I think in a Slashdot post about Quake 2, John Carmack mentioned that another old game was going to have it's code GPLed as well.  Do any of you know what he was talking about?


SS1 was published by Origin, actually. Don't know whether they/EA still have any rights to it, though.
#41 by "HoseWater"
2002-02-23 00:37:21
http://www.opencrap.org
#13 FunkDrunk
Forget old games for a moment, and take a look at these.  Movies from a new Capcom game for the Xbox named Tekki (it used to be named BrainBox).

I am not a graphics whore, but those movies are quite amazing.

The downside it that there's a special controller needed to play it.  One that's thrice the size of the Xbox.

Do you think it's worth it?

Funk.



Oh my god!  Please don't let it be a controller that finally makes me get a console.  I love that thing.

-I was going to buy an Xbox, but one day my PC fell over, so I left it that way.
#42 by "FunkDrunk"
2002-02-23 02:06:41
http://www.opencrap.org
#41 HoseWater
Oh my god!  Please don't let it be a controller that finally makes me get a console.  I love that thing.

-I was going to buy an Xbox, but one day my PC fell over, so I left it that way.


There's one major problem with it.  Most people play their consoles on a TV (living room, bedroom, etc..).  There are very few households who have their consoles on a desk, or near a table big enough to support that thing.

However, if that was a controller that I could map to any mech game on a PC, I would strongly consider one....


Funk.
#43 by "JP"
2002-02-23 02:21:21
from the article:
GCS3D also has a workable inventory system, vital for any decent remake of System Shock. A couple of notes: I've built System Shock's Medical level in both UnrealEd and Worldcraft, but the simple sector-editor of GCS3D is far easier and more effective than either, at least in building System Shock geometry.

my guess is that the guy didn't really make a very honest stab at using UED or worldcraft, because making those superbasic orthagonal-walled system shock levels with duplicated subtractive brushes in UED would be a *snap*.  i could probably recreate the medsci deck in an hour or two like that, textures and all.

if the engine he's using is truly able to deliver all the cool inventory / interface goo the original SS had, then more power to him - that's what the success of such a project will depend upon.  otherwise i'd say he's shooting himself in the foot by not just modding an existing game engine... for an idea of how easy it is to create content for such tech look no further than the insane amount of mods and levels for games like half-life and UT.
#44 by "None-1a"
2002-02-23 02:53:41
http://www.opencrap.org
#43 JP
my guess is that the guy didn't really make a very honest stab at using UED or worldcraft, because making those superbasic orthagonal-walled system shock levels with duplicated subtractive brushes in UED would be a *snap*. i could probably recreate the medsci deck in an hour or two like that, textures and all.


From the looks of GWEDIT (the GCS3D editor) it take even less time there. Here is the sales discription. It's just droping the items into the map and assinging a floor, wall, roof, whatever texture to it. So no need to mess with subtractives or making sure every thing is setup correctly (ok not like setup for speed would be a major problem with the SS levels but whatever).

I do think the level thing is just a blow off tho. GCS3D doesn't seam to require a programer to work with it (from what I could gather it's mostly simple scripting), my guess is that's more the reason he's going with it then say quake2 or doing an Unreal/UT mod for it.
#45 by "Eris"
2002-02-23 02:58:15
#43 by JP

my guess is that the guy didn't really make a very honest stab at using UED or worldcraft


You'd better fucking believe it :)

I beg of you, don't play the demo game, or the paper-game... doooon't.

Actually, the paper was kind of interesting, but so flawed I couldn't figure out what the fuck was going on 95% of the time.
#46 by "JMCDaveL"
2002-02-23 03:18:17
rdl@muw.edu Sleeping with you
I don't know about the Keen games, since they just made one for the gameboy.

God bless the Keen series though, one of the first truly impressive things I saw on a computer.

--jmc
#47 by "Matthew Gallant"
2002-02-23 03:26:30
seeker@truemeaningoflife.com http://truemeaningoflife.com
Belgium's Finest show off their Warcraft III beta.
#48 by "George Broussard"
2002-02-23 03:52:52
georgeb@3drealms.com
Darkseid,

and that its also officially in the abandonware category.....


That's silly.  I'm sure someone owns the rights to System Shock.  It's nowhere near abandonware.
#49 by "George Broussard"
2002-02-23 03:57:15
georgeb@3drealms.com
Yeah, thinking about it, I bet Eidos owns the rights to SS now.  In any case, consider thid foxed once people find out about it.  It amazes me that well intentioned fans do this to themselves.  Why not remake Doom (it's 10 years old), or other games?  Jeeezzzz....even if it's 25 years old, it doesn't give you the rights to re-make Space Invaders, Asteroids or Pac Man.
#50 by "HoseWater"
2002-02-23 03:57:32
http://www.opencrap.org
#48 George Broussard
Darkseid,

and that its also officially in the abandonware category.....


That's silly.  I'm sure someone owns the rights to System Shock.  It's nowhere near abandonware.


Heh, and it sounds like if it is on the market...for the right price, George knows someone who thinks it would be worth owning.  SS forever perhaps?  

-I was going to buy an Xbox, but one day my PC fell over, so I left it that way.
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