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T O P I C
Nod Very Good?
February 14th 2002, 15:11 CET by Peter Bridger

"Renegade is not a game to miss." - Avault; "Renegade should prove to be a strong alternative to the upcoming crop of action games" - Gamespot; "Renegade shows a lot of promise... ...it's hard to imagine that this game won't be a success" - IGN.

Impressions based on previews, videos and screenshots pumped out by Westwood's hype department. But where are the reviews? A trip to GameRankings shows that there aren't any reviews yet... but this morning I had the chance to glance over the first ever review of Renegade I've seen. PC Gamer UK will be out in the shops tomorrow, but as I subscribe I got it delivered this morning. I only had a quick flick through before driving off to work, but I did have long enough to learn that they really really didn't like Renegade...

A lot like the hype generated with Red Faction, the actual game doesn't deliver on those promises. A bad first review, or a warning of Westwood's latest mistake?
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#1 by "MaverickUK"
2002-02-14 15:12:55
peter.bridger@tpg.co.uk http://www.thisstrife.com/
First!

Screw Renegade, I want to play Bridge Commander!

--
Mav
\"What kinda shithole planet is this!?\"
#2 by "LPMiller"
2002-02-14 15:16:01
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
second on Bridge commander.
#3 by "Morn"
2002-02-14 15:31:16
hendrik@mans.de http://www.mans.de
Is that the same PC Gamer that awarded AO "MMOG of the Year"? ;)

Anyway, I saw Renegade on TV last night (Giga Games), and it looked fun. I think I'll buy it.

- Morn
#4 by "wizard"
2002-02-14 15:34:35
wizardque@yahoo.com http://www.opencrap.org
#3 Morn
Is that the same PC Gamer that awarded AO "MMOG of the Year"? ;)

Anyway, I saw Renegade on TV last night (Giga Games), and it looked fun. I think I'll buy it.

- Morn

I'm probably going to throw down the cash too...  I'm a huge fan of C&C (at least the first one) and I've got to at least give it a chance...

BTW, did everyone see Taco on slashdot is getting married?  With his nifty, o so geeky, way of asking?  Cute, but I don't know that I want to explain to my parents that I asked my future wife to marry me on a website.  :P

-wizard
English is my 5th language.
#5 by "MaverickUK"
2002-02-14 15:40:28
peter.bridger@tpg.co.uk http://www.thisstrife.com/
On a slightly different note, the same edtion of PC Gamer gave Jedi Knight 2 a 6 page review and a 92% score.

I declare March the month for gaming!

--
Mav
\"What kinda shithole planet is this!?\"
#6 by "Morn"
2002-02-14 15:52:12
hendrik@mans.de http://www.mans.de
Jedi Knight 2? Isn't that going to be out in, like, 6 months? ;)

- Morn
#7 by "LPMiller"
2002-02-14 16:16:16
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
There're only two things in life that make it worth livin'
It's a guitar tuned good and firm feelin' women
don't need my name in the marquis lights
I got my song and I got you with me tonight
Maybe it's time we got back to the basics of love
#8 by "Scrozzy"
2002-02-14 16:18:52
scrozzy@bigfoot.com
this is the UK version of PCG, and it was the US version that gave the award to AO, and they're unconnected except in name, i believe, although i might be mistaken. and i third the bridge commander notion entirely.
#9 by "Duality"
2002-02-14 17:11:57
http://www.opencrap.org
Bridge Commander is a very cool game.  I'm a (relative) fan of Star Trek, and the only game I've played yet was the old one for the Atari 2600.  The graphics are pretty nice for the space battles, lots of nice detail for the ships.  Although the skins had a lil more to be desired.

I think, as someone who's not familiar w/ ST PC games, the single best thing about these games is how they will almost always get the cast to do their characters' voices.  As cool a voice actor Doug Lee was, it was always so jarring to hear him instead of Harrison Ford in the Indiana Jones games.

-Duailty
#10 by "Duality"
2002-02-14 17:13:17
http://www.opencrap.org
Oh and gameplay is good.  It was quite easy for someone who has never played a game like it to understand the basics on how it worked.  I still won't be getting into CommandSims any time soon, but it was quite nice.

-Duailty
#11 by "MaverickUK"
2002-02-14 17:21:56
peter.bridger@tpg.co.uk http://www.thisstrife.com/
Duality (#9):
I think, as someone who's not familiar w/ ST PC games, the single best thing about these games is how they will almost always get the cast to do their characters' voices. As cool a voice actor Doug Lee was, it was always so jarring to hear him instead of Harrison Ford in the Indiana Jones games.


I'm sure that the Shack said a demo was going to be released a few days ago.... but nothing, shame..

When you're talking about Indy, do you mean on the Infernal Machine?
I was quite disapointed with that.. from the screenshots I was expecting a Fate of Atlantis puzzler/Grim Fandango engine, but alas... they just went for the Tomb Raider clone route, more shame..

--
Mav
\"What kinda shithole planet is this!?\"
#12 by "Warren Marshall"
2002-02-14 17:22:17
warren_AT_epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
I only had a quick flick through before driving off to work, but I did have long enough to learn that they really really didn't like Renegade...

*whistles and casually strolls away*
#13 by "Warren Marshall"
2002-02-14 17:23:11
warren_AT_epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Maverick
When you're talking about Indy, do you mean on the Infernal Machine?
I was quite disapointed with that.. from the screenshots I was expecting a Fate of Atlantis puzzler/Grim Fandango engine, but alas... they just went for the Tomb Raider clone route, more shame..

I actually enjoyed Infernal Machine.  Much more than Tomb Raider at least ...
#14 by "Bailey"
2002-02-14 17:35:34
www.ashrain.net
Hands-off previews need to die now. There's nothing more pointless and uninteresting than having an aneurysm over the latest screenshots and PR releases your advertising sponsor sent you. Just post the damn screenshots and get back in your broom closet "office".

That being said, I hope Jedi Knight 2 does rock, I could use a little force grip lovin'.
#15 by "Duality"
2002-02-14 17:50:26
http://www.opencrap.org
#11 MaverickUK
I'm sure that the Shack said a demo was going to be released a few days ago.... but nothing, shame..

I've been shameful and haven't kept up w/ what's going on the testing, so I have no idea at what point its at.  Testing may very well be over with.

When you're talking about Indy, do you mean on the Infernal Machine?
I was quite disapointed with that.. from the screenshots I was expecting a Fate of Atlantis puzzler/Grim Fandango engine, but alas... they just went for the Tomb Raider clone route, more shame..

Yeah that was truly disappointing.  It worked, just not nearly as well as I would have liked.
But in respect to the voice acting for Indy, Doug Lee did both Atlantis and Infernal Machine.  I first played Atlantis when I was 12 -- pretty harsh on such a youngin' when one of his favorite characters comes to a video game worth playing and its not even Harrison Ford doing the voice acting.  He is Indiana Jones.

-Duailty
#16 by "Post-It"
2002-02-14 18:40:52
- -
Just saw this on kuro5hin.

DMCA Declares Serial Cables Illegal?
I've recently had an interesting run-in with the DMCA... apparently, US Customs has rejected entry of a PC<->Sega Dreamcast serial cable into the US, supposedly due to copyright violations. This cable was to be used for Dreamcast programming for the Real-Time Systems class offered at my university. This seems to be a clear case of the DMCA abridging a perfectly valid educational use of a perfectly legal piece of hardware. I'll be keeping the most recent version of my story here; otherwise see below for what I currently know.
#17 by "Creole Ned"
2002-02-14 19:03:27
cned@telus.net
Regarding the PC Gamer UK review of Jedi Knight 2, nothing inspires confidence more than a glowing review of a game that has yet to be finished and shipped. :)

I nominate Medal of Honor: Allied Assault as 2002's "Black & White Early Glowing Review" recipient. This is where reviews of the game come out quickly, are gushingly positive, then, a few months later, most people agree the game really was just okay.
#18 by "Bailey"
2002-02-14 19:07:48
www.ashrain.net
I counter-nominate B&W: Creature Isle as 2002's "Black & White Early Glowing Review" recipient.
#19 by "Creole Ned"
2002-02-14 19:40:24
cned@telus.net
Have they not learned? What of the children?

Really, though, has Creature Isle been getting good reviews? I haven't followed it since I never picked up B&W.
#20 by "Rodzilla"
2002-02-14 19:51:09
darkreaper@seriouscommunity.com http://www.seriouscommunity.com
Renegade is crap, period.

I reviewed it here - http://www.seriouscommunity.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7842

To be blunt, the graphics suck, horribly. I'd say they're on-par with Quake II. I mean...its just UGLY! The levels are blocky, the textures aren't too good, and there's really no detail at all. When it comes to vehicles though, it looks pretty good. All the vehicles look cool, and look like they should. Firing animations are the standard "move the tank a little when it fires" type thing. The unfortunate part about the graphics is that Westwood is so far into the development cycle, they're not going to go back and make the graphics better. So, you'll end up with graphics comparable to playing a game of half-life with better vehicles. Weapon and player models are about HL level as well. This was with EVERYTHING on max detail, btw...

Upon joining a game, you are the standard infantry unit. You immediately begin earning credits towards purchasing upgrades for yourself, or vehicles. There are only ground vehicles, and I highly doubt that will change - there's just no room for air. As long at the harvester and refinery are kept intact, you gain more credits. Damaging and destroying things, as well as repairing your own side's structures gains you points as well as credits.

In the Command and Conquer multiplayer mode, the objectives are to either destroy all the enemy's buildings, or to plant either an Ion cannon or Nuclear strike becon on the becon thingy in their barracks/hand of nod. It takes about 5 seconds to arm, and about 30 seconds to detonate. In those 30 seconds it can be deactivated.

All upgrades and purchases are done from control panels inside every building in your own base. You walk up to them, hit a button, and pick what you want to do. If your barracks/hand of nod is destroyed, you can't upgrade your player(except for moving to an engineer, flamethrower dude, or shotgun guy - which is always free). If the airstrip/weapons factory is destroyed, you can't get vehicles.

There's different players to choose from, all having different weapons, strengths, etc. Engineers are the only ones who can repair things, and do it with a "zappo-ray gun"  They can repair buildings and units as well as people. Also, Engineers are the only ones to carry HUGE packs of C4. All players carry one pack of timed C4 explosives.

With the vechiles, when you buy a vehicle, its yours. No one can steal your vehicle as you're running towards it if you bought it. If you get in, and then out, however, its free game for either side to take.

So while it has horrible graphics, it still does well in the gameplay department. When your team really comes together and works together, its a blast. It still suffers from what all other team-based games suffer from though - lack of teamwork. There's nothing more frustrating then having your mammoth tank torn to pieces by foot soldiers because no-one would cover you on foot or repair you. The ranking system could use some work also, because its impossible to gain points if you're on the losing team - even if you had the highest score.
#21 by "Rodzilla"
2002-02-14 19:51:51
darkreaper@seriouscommunity.com http://www.seriouscommunity.com
It didn't like the link much...lets try again
#22 by "Sgt Hulka"
2002-02-14 20:01:34
sgt_hulka@yahoo.com http://www.hulka.com
If you saw the film The 6th Day with Ahnold, then you know about Re-Pet.  Looks like it's happening for real.

........I always give 110% +12
#23 by "Duality"
2002-02-14 20:14:29
http://www.opencrap.org
The Wall Street Journal says the work at Texas A&M University was financed by an 81-year-old financier called John Sperling, who wants to charge wealthy pet owners to clone their pets.
The point of this ... is?
Its not going to bring the pet back to life.  The article even states that the color patterns for the fur is not entirely genetic, so is different.  The personality is most certainly not going to be the same, either.

-Duailty
#24 by "Morn"
2002-02-14 20:15:43
hendrik@mans.de http://www.mans.de
What I've seen of Renegade's graphics on TV looked pretty much okay. No Unreal 2 stuff, obviously.

And wow, that forum you linked to must be a secret hangout of the top game designers and developers of the world. Awesome! :P

- Morn
#25 by "Bailey"
2002-02-14 20:32:36
www.ashrain.net
Rodzilla

What did you do, review a MP demo?

Hulka

Dammit, I knew I should've kept a fur sample of my beloved hellcat that died a few years back. Extremely bad tempered, bit everyone who touched her, often down to the bone on a finger, would meow incessently if you whistled, scratch you if you didn't stop... Man, I miss her. It's not often you get a pet so perfectly attuned to the owner's personality.

Of course, as "Duailty" has pointed out, she wouldn't be the same cat, but I can dream... I can dream.
#26 by "JoeHeller"
2002-02-14 21:00:08
frizo@adelphia.net
Westwood ran out of original ideas a looong time ago.  I grant that Dune and C&C where ground-breaking concepts way back when, but only the Maxis (The Sims...) is more guilty of dragging content out of an already beaten-to-death idea.  The Sims x-packs sell like hotcakes, Renegade will surely be a hit despite its apparant suckiness and XCOM is dead.  There is no god.
#27 by "Eris"
2002-02-14 21:06:44
#23 by Duality

Surely you have higher standards for pet owners than necessary

(can we say... "sparky jerky?" :D )
#28 by "Duality"
2002-02-14 21:19:19
http://www.opencrap.org
I've got my own Pet Cemetery in my backyard.
2 ferrets
2 rabbits
8 guinea pigs

All buried in a shoebox in my backyard somewhere.
The dogs we cremated.

I'm just hoping that someday in a couple hundred years, somebody digs em up and wonders what sort of twisted Hide and Seek games we played.

-Duailty
#29 by "Eris"
2002-02-14 21:31:28
#28 by Duality


I'm sure they will have no need to wonder.

"Boy, they were great on hiding, but horrible at the 'seek' part."
#30 by "Rodzilla"
2002-02-14 21:38:17
darkreaper@seriouscommunity.com http://www.seriouscommunity.com

And wow, that forum you linked to must be a secret hangout of the top game designers and developers of the world. Awesome! :P


lol...Croteam is the coolest development team I know.  They visit those forums often(they're the unofficially official Sam forums) and post there.  They also visit the IRC chat room(irc.gamesnet.net - #serioussam).  A very cool bunch if you ask me, or most other people who know them. :)

That was my review from the Multiplayer beta.
#31 by "Sgt Hulka"
2002-02-14 21:41:15
sgt_hulka@yahoo.com http://www.hulka.com
#25 Bailey


Hulka

Dammit, I knew I should've kept a fur sample of my beloved hellcat that died a few years back. Extremely bad tempered, bit everyone who touched her, often down to the bone on a finger, would meow incessently if you whistled, scratch you if you didn't stop... Man, I miss her. It's not often you get a pet so perfectly attuned to the owner's personality.



Oh I don't know. Judging from the photo they issued of the little furball, the little kitty clone seems to have some sort of attitude problem.  They better double check that DNA they be using to recreate these little pussies.


........I always give 110% +12
#32 by "Bailey"
2002-02-14 22:43:00
www.ashrain.net
Rodzilla

That was my review from the Multiplayer beta.

Oh, well, the BETA reviews are in! I'm cancelling my pre-order! Hurr, bluh, eating all the jam right from the jar with my grubby hands.

Hulka

Hrm... but do they shed? I might be able to tolerate das extremen right kittenzie if they don't shed overtly.
#33 by "crash"
2002-02-14 22:59:27
Morn:

Is that the same PC Gamer that awarded AO "MMOG of the Year"? ;)

in UK, PCG is published by future; in the US, PCG is published by imagine. future owns imagine. so... yes and no. two separate arms of the same publishing house, yes. same magazine, no, not really.
#34 by "Mad_Dog"
2002-02-14 23:11:23
eatmyspam@tarDODO.com http://www.opencrap.org
Blah. I'll wait on forming an opinion when I have either the demo or the actual game. Or, when I hear "reviews" by people whom I believe to be trustworthy.

I don't expect Renegade to be graphically on par with MoH-AA or RtCW. Westwood, for whatever reason, desided to roll their own engine. And from the screenshots I've seen, it's sort of sucky. Fine. I can deal with that. Eyecandy is no replacement for the fun factor.

Really, this whole thing is pointless until we have a game in our hands. I trust the reviews of gaming magazines and gaming websites about as far as I can throw dookie-covered toilet paper.
#35 by "Bailey"
2002-02-14 23:38:11
www.ashrain.net
Fun factor, the only believable and truly measurable aspect of any game.
#36 by "m0nty"
2002-02-15 00:00:44
m0nty_au@bigpond.com no fixed abode
I don't know whether people will be interested in this or not, but we've been having a lot of fun in the #planetcrap IRC channel today.

Ashiran has been kind enough to christen monsters he has created for the Terrarium - an ecology sim game of sorts created by Microsoft to promote .NET - with my name. The creatures are actually bits of code produced in the .NET development environment. m0nty_a and its descendants look like scorpions, although they were designed to act like ferrets. It is a carnivore, feeding on herbivores which in turn feed on plants.

Results with introducing it into the virtual environment today have met with mixed results. In the benevolent atmosphere of the farm, where no bad things happen (kinda like a kibbutz) so that the developers can fine-tune their creations, many of my online avatars grew to a good size, and had a fine old time. This screenshot shows me in the middle of eating several critters. Note the diagnostics on the right which tell how the critters are doing, along with a snippet of the code.

When I was introduced into the no-holds-barred real world of the Terrarium, my beginning was not so good. My first 10 clones, named m0nty_a, all died of starvation with a lack of herbivores nearby to satisfy their ravenous appetites. After a bit of tweaking by Ashiran, Gabe reintroduced m0nty_a in his part of the Terrarium. The results were not much better, as there were two births but every other animal died... one of old age, the rest starved. However, one of the clones managed to make its first kill.

m0nty_a2 redeemed these humble beginnings with a dominant performance. Gabe's sector was teeming with life at a 60-strong population with its introduction, but after a matter of minutes, the 10 originals had given birth to 10 others, and had cleaned out the joint. This screenshot shows the killing machine that was m0nty_a2 in action, including double team action at bottom left. The blue ball is a telportation device, the only way that animals can travel from sector to sector. Some a2s escaped the scorched earth that was Gabe's sector, and AFAIK are still alive. Ash has created m0nty_a3 and a4 as well, some of which are alive as I post.

Thanks to Ashiran and Gabe!
#37 by "Bailey"
2002-02-15 00:31:48
www.ashrain.net
So what are all those other beasties, things other people created? And the idea is to make the strongest bug possible to take over all the different sectors autonomously? I don't sprechten se doitche, so that website didn't help much.
#38 by "Mad_Dog"
2002-02-15 00:55:38
eatmyspam@tarDODO.com http://www.opencrap.org
#36 m0nty
I don't know whether people will be interested in this or not, but we've been having a lot of fun in the #planetcrap IRC channel today.

Ashiran has been kind enough to christen monsters he has created for the Terrarium - an ecology sim game of sorts created by Microsoft to promote .NET - with my name. The creatures are actually bits of code produced in the .NET development environment. m0nty_a and its descendants look like scorpions, although they were designed to act like ferrets. It is a carnivore, feeding on herbivores which in turn feed on plants.

Sounds like a 2002 version of corewars.
#39 by "Warren Marshall"
2002-02-15 02:35:09
warren_AT_epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Bailey
Oh, well, the BETA reviews are in! I'm cancelling my pre-order! Hurr, bluh, eating all the jam right from the jar with my grubby hands.

I'm still confused by his original post .. the game is "crap", yet "does well in the gameplay department".  ??
#40 by "Rodzilla"
2002-02-15 02:43:36
darkreaper@seriouscommunity.com http://www.seriouscommunity.com
Yes, BETAs have bugs, but you can't improve a graphics engine as much as it needs to be done without taking a LOT of time.

The game is crap imo.  It does well in gameplay, if done right.  Its just like all mods out there that rely on teamplay too much.  One loose cannon can, and does, ruin the game.  If it wasn't crap, I would've played it for more than an hour.  Sure, it does well in gameplay, but only if you get a perfect team, and the other team is perfect as well.  And that never happens...
#41 by "Mad_Dog"
2002-02-15 03:10:02
eatmyspam@tarDODO.com http://www.opencrap.org
#40 Rodzilla
Yes, BETAs have bugs, but you can't improve a graphics engine as much as it needs to be done without taking a LOT of time.

The game is crap imo.  It does well in gameplay, if done right.  Its just like all mods out there that rely on teamplay too much.  One loose cannon can, and does, ruin the game.  If it wasn't crap, I would've played it for more than an hour.  Sure, it does well in gameplay, but only if you get a perfect team, and the other team is perfect as well.  And that never happens...

Oh please.

Just because the graphics aren't all curvey bouncy bumpapedy refractivity goodness doesn't mean that it's "crap". Consider this: the game is written for the average-Joe old-time C&C player. People like that don't have the pimped out phat systems with the liquid coolers and the supah-l33t moded cases. In fact, the requirements are realy quite modest. P2 (two, II) @400mhz, TNT2 and 96M ram. Looks like Quake2? Well, duh. Those specs aren't much above what Quake2 had.

As for multiplayer.... as much fun (or not) that the multiplayer component is, it's the single player experience that'll make or break *this* game.  And we haven't seen single player yet... and probably won't for another 11 days.

So, there.
#42 by "Eris"
2002-02-15 03:25:53
Sad, Sad, Sad.

from rejectionline.com
#43 by "Matthew Gallant"
2002-02-15 04:01:27
seeker@truemeaningoflife.com http://truemeaningoflife.com
Graphics, graphics, graphics...argue about whether this flash game's black and white graphics take away from it being a hell of a lot more interesting than most non-free games.
#44 by "Bailey"
2002-02-15 05:26:18
www.ashrain.net
Warren

I'm still confused by his original post .. the game is "crap", yet "does well in the gameplay department". ??

Well, admittedly, it's a bit of a gordian knot of thinking. But to cleave the knot with a sword of damocles or something, I'll just quote this.

If it wasn't crap, I would've played it for more than an hour.

An whole hour? My lord, he's the most dedicated reviewing monkey on the planet! No one is more qualified to comment on this game than he, with the possible exception of every other human being who ever existed, including those who didn't play the game.

Rodzilla

The five-minute reviews go to Shacknews, not Planetcrap.
#45 by "Warren Marshall"
2002-02-15 05:52:02
warren_AT_epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Graphics, graphics, graphics...argue about whether this flash game's black and white graphics take away from it being a hell of a lot more interesting than most non-free games.

No offense, but running around picking up blue dots constitutes an interesting game for you?
#46 by "Matthew Gallant"
2002-02-15 06:16:32
seeker@truemeaningoflife.com http://truemeaningoflife.com
#45 Warren Marshall
Graphics, graphics, graphics...argue about whether this flash game's black and white graphics take away from it being a hell of a lot more interesting than most non-free games.

No offense, but running around picking up blue dots constitutes an interesting game for you?


Yes, any game with blue dots. I automatically lose interest in the concept, art style, and music as soon as I see a blue dot.

Is that really all that you got out of playing it? Just running around picking up blue dots? If they added some explosions and/or breasts, would that be better?

I'm not saying this is game of the year. In fact, I doubt I will play it again even though I haven't seen all the areas available. I'll be damned though if I didn't feel like I did something cooler in 3 go-arounds with that game than I did with hours put into most other games.
#47 by "Anonymous"
2002-02-15 06:35:17
What's this about breasts?
#48 by "Bailey"
2002-02-15 06:35:38
www.ashrain.net
Dang cookies.
#49 by "Slappy"
2002-02-15 06:58:02
Why the hell don't they make more fps/rpg hybrids. System Shock/2 and Deux Ex are the only two I can think of and look how those turned out.

Developers get on it damnit!
#50 by "Pacer Dawn"
2002-02-15 07:07:45
pacerdawn@iname.com http://www.pages.net/~martin/pacerdawn
mmm, cookies....
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