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T O P I C
The Internet would rock if it was all machines and no humans.
January 20th 2002, 23:18 CET by Morn

--------------------------------------
     ICQ History Log For:    
            14519229  redef
 Started on Sun Jan 20 21:41:38 2002
--------------------------------------
RaptoR     20/01/20 21:25 hey

redef      20/01/20 21:25 good afternoon

RaptoR     20/01/20 21:25 did you receive my mail sent to news@pu?

redef      20/01/20 21:26 might of, what was the subject

RaptoR     20/01/20 21:26 It was about a new editorial feature at
                          expandedmultiplayer.com

redef      20/01/20 21:27 ah, yes i did.

RaptoR     20/01/20 21:28 ah... I was using an experimental new news mailer
                          to send it... wasn't sure if it got through or
                          not :)

RaptoR     20/01/20 21:29 Would you be able to post it?

redef      20/01/20 21:29 no, i'm not interested in doing so.

RaptoR     20/01/20 21:30 why's that?

redef      20/01/20 21:30 we're not huge supporters of Beyond Unreal, and
                          its affiliates

RaptoR     20/01/20 21:31 Our only affiliation with BeyondUnreal is the
                          fact that we are hosted by them.
                              
                          We have not shown any support for last year's
                          events on the forums.

redef      20/01/20 21:32 yeah, i'm aware, but you're their business

RaptoR     20/01/20 21:33 I'm their business?

redef      20/01/20 21:33 being hosted by them,

RaptoR     20/01/20 21:34 So GameSpy refuses to post news from BeyondUnreal
                          hosted sites?

redef      20/01/20 21:35 essentially, yes

RaptoR     20/01/20 21:36 And this is due to GameSpy's negative opinion of
                          BeyondUnreal and all who happen to be affiliated
                          with them in any way?

redef      20/01/20 21:37 well, we might not necessarily dislike you, or
                          your site. but linking to anything
                          beyondunreal-related is supporting them.

RaptoR     20/01/20 21:38 So you will not link to any BeyondUnreal-hosted
                          material, regardless of how doing so may fracture
                          the community?

RaptoR     20/01/20 21:39 Doesn't that seem a little childish?
                              

(at this point redef went idle)
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#1 by "clambert"
2002-01-20 23:19:10
c@cox.net http://www.beyondunreal.com/
First post!

And for those who confused:
redef = site director @ PlanetUnreal
RaptoR = admin @ ExpandedMultiplayer
#2 by "Myrmidion"
2002-01-20 23:21:33
Nasty Little Hobbitses! NASTY! www.expandedMultiplayer.com
I wonder if that was Redef's opinion, or if he was parroting some new Gamespy rule :)
#3 by "clambert"
2002-01-20 23:22:05
c@cox.net http://www.beyondunreal.com/
^ who are confused.
#4 by "Bailey"
2002-01-20 23:34:30
(shrug) This surprises... who?
#5 by "Gunp01nt"
2002-01-20 23:35:28
supersimon33@hotmail.com http://planetp01nt.tmfweb.nl
4 post!

Hemm, well, that's the way these things go... Of course GSI is so angry that they don't want to have anything to do with Beyond Unreal anymore.
-------------------------
"Does anyone here speak l33t?"
#6 by "Gunp01nt"
2002-01-20 23:35:47
supersimon33@hotmail.com http://planetp01nt.tmfweb.nl
I hate you, Bailey.
-------------------------
"Does anyone here speak l33t?"
#7 by "HoseWater"
2002-01-20 23:37:07
http://www.opencrap.org
So what is the backstory on this?  What beef does GSI have with BU?

-I was going to buy an Xbox, but one day my PC fell over, so I left it that way.
#8 by "Leslie Nassar"
2002-01-20 23:40:50
http://leslie.nassar.info/
*shrug* who gives a shit?  They screwed GSI, GSI chooses not to support them either directly or indirectly.  Leaking ICQ logs like this stinks of an attention grab.
#9 by "HoseWater"
2002-01-20 23:43:07
http://www.opencrap.org
Oh, hang on a sec.  we discussed the back story on this in another thread I believe.  I think I know what's going on.


-I was going to buy an Xbox, but one day my PC fell over, so I left it that way.
#10 by "DarkReaper"
2002-01-20 23:43:09
darkreaper@unrealtournament.org http://www.seriouscommunity.com
Wait, this is a surprise?  Gamespy obviously only cares about business.  Why else would they ban people from their forums for informing people of what actually happened.  Why else would they not want people to know about BeyondUnreal, and all the sites that are connected to it?

Gamespy doesn't care about games anymore, they care about money.  Its no wonder redef is one of the top friends gamespy has.  He cares about money, and the fact that PU is the only gamespy site to have popups proves it.

A year ago, if someone told me that Gamespy was only about money, and was destroying gaming communities, I would've told them they're crazy.  Things have changed since then, and this is yet another tribute to GSI's trophy case of suck.
#11 by "Gunp01nt"
2002-01-20 23:45:45
supersimon33@hotmail.com http://planetp01nt.tmfweb.nl
#10 DarkReaper
Gamespy doesn't care about games anymore, they care about money.

Proof: PlanetDaikatana!
-------------------------
"Does anyone here speak l33t?"
#12 by "HoseWater"
2002-01-20 23:48:59
http://www.opencrap.org
Gamespy is a for profit business.  Of course they care about money.  They do not exist without it.  That provides pretty strong motivation for them to keep their eye on the ball. You make it sound like there is something wrong with that.


-I was going to buy an Xbox, but one day my PC fell over, so I left it that way.
#13 by "8-4-7-2"
2002-01-20 23:50:22
stefan8472@hotmail.com
One day GSI will realize that they lose more in the longrun. All people with a bit of a brain, see that they don't get all news, and the info they want at PU, and move elsewhere. If this hurts someone it's PU. BU can only profit from it, and I bet 100$ that it becomes the official U2 site.
The only thing to worry me are the U2 and UT2 newbies, who know nothing but the Planets. However I guessanyone with some sense will soon find other sites. Most of the rest are morons who can find their new home at Forumplanet
#14 by "Bailey"
2002-01-20 23:51:37
Just so I'm completely clear on this... this is being posted on PC because GSI wouldn't post a story about a site hosted by BU? Correct?
#15 by "8-4-7-2"
2002-01-20 23:51:53
stefan8472@hotmail.com
Caring for money isn't bad. But you shouldn't put money above the community and the game
#16 by "Caryn Law"
2002-01-20 23:52:43
carynlaw@pacbell.net
Yeah! It shouldn't be about the money! Every company should pay their employees in gumdrops and well wishes!

ALL companies care about money, and it's their first and foremost concern, and it should be. If it isn't, they're either out of business or soon to be so. This is what makes it so easy for people to accuse any company they don't like of only caring about the money. I challenge these people to run a business that doesn't care about paying its employees first.

That doesn't mean a company can't care about making money AND being nice and upstanding. But it's really irritating to hear the knee-jerk "it's only about the money with them" response whenever any company makes a decision they think is going to make them money.
#17 by "DarkReaper"
2002-01-20 23:53:13
darkreaper@unrealtournament.org http://www.seriouscommunity.com
There's nothing wrong with making money, until it overrides your original goal, which in this case was to be the best place for gamers to go.  That's changed over the past year.  Lines for fileplanet, charging for fileplanet(illegally, may I add - you know those little bits of text at the bottom of oh so many files out there that prohibit charging for the file?), treating the Unreal community like crap(and not even caring about the community anymore), deleting accounts because people spoke against them, etc....making money is great, until it causes people to hate you, and causes your product to turn to crap.
#18 by "HoseWater"
2002-01-20 23:55:52
http://www.opencrap.org
#15 8-4-7-2
Caring for money isn't bad. But you shouldn't put money above the community and the game


You should if your next dinner is dependant on it. You should if your the boss, and 50 other people are depending on you to keep food on their tables too.

Running a business comes with respsonsibilites that extend beyond games.

-I was going to buy an Xbox, but one day my PC fell over, so I left it that way.
#19 by "crash"
2002-01-20 23:57:52
save the drama for yo' mama. "OH NO GSI WON'T LINK TO US WAAAAH!"

*yawn*

next?
#20 by "HoseWater"
2002-01-21 00:00:16
http://www.opencrap.org
#17 DarkReaper
There's nothing wrong with making money, until it overrides your original goal, which in this case was to be the best place for gamers to go.  That's changed over the past year.  Lines for fileplanet, charging for fileplanet(illegally, may I add - you know those little bits of text at the bottom of oh so many files out there that prohibit charging for the file?), treating the Unreal community like crap(and not even caring about the community anymore), deleting accounts because people spoke against them, etc....making money is great, until it causes people to hate you, and causes your product to turn to crap.


You have not been paying attention, this changed for them a lot sooner than last year.  The only thing that changed last year, was the screws were turned a bit tighter.

As for charging for the files...You are paying to use their servers, and thier bandwidth, which I might add, you are still free to use at no cost if you wish.

I think they actually know what they are doing.  There are people like me, who will not pay for the servers, I have not even signed up to use them for free, but I bet they accounted for people like me ahead of time.

This talk of community and all that, is nice sounding, and you will probably even hear it from them, but I'm telling it like it is, and they would agree with me too, just not publically, to avoid the hassel.

-I was going to buy an Xbox, but one day my PC fell over, so I left it that way.
#21 by "Warren Marshall"
2002-01-21 00:00:49
warren_AT_epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
8-4-7-2
Caring for money isn't bad. But you shouldn't put money above the community and the game

In your attitude perhaps ... in practice, I imagine you have to.  Bandwidth and servers aren't free.
#22 by "Bailey"
2002-01-21 00:01:39
There's nothing wrong with making money, until it overrides your original goal, which in this case was to be the best place for gamers to go. That's changed over the past year.

(choking on laughter)
#23 by "Morn"
2002-01-21 00:02:20
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
On one hand, I think GSI has every right to decide what kind of editorial content does or does not show up on their sites, so not wanting to link to Beyond Unreal or any of their hosted sites is IMO pretty much their own decision. (Well, doh. Of course it is.)

On the other hand, I believe that even if you're a business, working against other sites/competitors by not linking to them is pretty counter-productive. The basic idea behind the World Wide Web is that sites link to each other. You send some people their way, they send some people back. Unfortunately, at some point placing a link to some other site became a service, part of a trade. "I'll only link to you if you link to me!"  How dumb and short-sighted. People are broken.

- Morn
#24 by "Bailey"
2002-01-21 00:03:59
I keep reading this over and over, but I'm just not getting it. At what point did a site become obligated to report on or post about something?
#25 by "Morn"
2002-01-21 00:05:04
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
A website not linking to other sites is like a big supermarket blocking the road to its competitors. Discuss.
#26 by "crash"
2002-01-21 00:05:17
btw, for those following along at home that care, the conversation above, if i'd been the editor, would have ended right here:

redef      20/01/20 21:29 no, i'm not interested in doing so.

then i would have gotten "Why?", and probably have replied, "Why is irrelevant. The answer is no. Good day."
#27 by "HoseWater"
2002-01-21 00:05:26
http://www.opencrap.org
#23 Morn
On one hand, I think GSI has every right to decide what kind of editorial content does or does not show up on their sites, so not wanting to link to Beyond Unreal or any of their hosted sites is IMO pretty much their own decision. (Well, doh. Of course it is.)

On the other hand, I believe that even if you're a business, working against other sites/competitors by not linking to them is pretty counter-productive. The basic idea behind the World Wide Web is that sites link to each other. You send some people their way, they send some people back. Unfortunately, at some point placing a link to some other site became a service, part of a trade. "I'll only link to you if you link to me!"  How dumb and short-sighted. People are broken.

- Morn


This I agree with in general, in general.  The only thing holding me back from saying that GSI is being a petty childish snot, is that I do not remember the specifics about how we got to this point.  Did PU do something harmful to GSI in the past?

-I was going to buy an Xbox, but one day my PC fell over, so I left it that way.
#28 by "Creole Ned"
2002-01-21 00:06:09
cned@telus.net
The Unreal community is a nasty one. I don't know if other gaming communities are any better or worse, mainly because I've removed myself from them. These days I play the games and skip the community altogether. If there's big news, the major sites carry it. That's good enough for me (major = Blue's, etc.).
#29 by "Bailey"
2002-01-21 00:06:28
#24 is in reference to the entire thread, not #23 morn, who is hurt that I would say anything which opposes his tyrannical rule. Enjoy your Sunday night viewing.
#30 by "crash"
2002-01-21 00:06:48
Morn:

A website not linking to other sites is like a big supermarket blocking the road to its competitors. Discuss.

a website not linking to other sites is like a big supermarket not offering to foot the bill to pave the road and the parking lot for its competition.

discuss.
#31 by "Morn"
2002-01-21 00:06:54
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
:P
#32 by "Gunp01nt"
2002-01-21 00:07:15
supersimon33@hotmail.com http://planetp01nt.tmfweb.nl
#21 Warren Marshall
8-4-7-2
In your attitude perhaps ... in practice, I imagine you have to.  Bandwidth and servers aren't free.

Bandwith and servers cost money but they don't cost the amount of money GSI is trying to make out of it.
A LOT of sites can support themselves by half as aggressive tactics as GSI's.

And don't tell me they need to pay their writers because everyone knows that there are enough writers who are willing to do it for free or just for the opportunity they're getting to run a site. People who are really a game's fanboi will be quite willing to run a fansite for free. That's how GSI did it in the past, so why couldn't they do it now?
-------------------------
"Does anyone here speak l33t?"
#33 by "Morn"
2002-01-21 00:07:27
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
crash, does GameSpy have to pay money for its links to other sites? Geez, that must suck.
#34 by "Eris"
2002-01-21 00:08:52
As for charging for the files...You are paying to use their servers, and thier bandwidth, which I might add, you are still free to use at no cost if you wish.
>

Yes, this in theory is true, but he was talking about them charging for files that are freely distributed *UNLESS* someone tries charging for them. (Pressing to CD, charging for downloading, they are not too dissimilar.)
#35 by "Whisp"
2002-01-21 00:09:42
http://www.opencrap.org
#16 Caryn Law
Yeah! It shouldn't be about the money! Every company should pay their employees in gumdrops and well wishes!


Isn't that what GSI pays?

-Whisp#26 crash
btw, for those following along at home that care, the conversation above, if i'd been the editor, would have ended right here:

redef      20/01/20 21:29 no, i'm not interested in doing so.

then i would have gotten "Why?", and probably have replied, "Why is irrelevant. The answer is no. Good day."


Convinced me, you're hired!

-Whisp
#36 by "clambert"
2002-01-21 00:10:05
c@cox.net http://www.beyondunreal.com/
Just for the record, I have no grudge against GSI, PlanetUnreal, or redef. My only problem is with redef's policy not to post news regarding BeyondUnreal and any of its hosted sites. I'd bet that his point of view on this subject isn't shared with anyone at GameSpy, as it wasn't when I was an admin. Not to relight a dead fire, but some of you may remember that PlanetUnreal, as a site, took a lot of heat from Unreality. From mocking news posts, to cruel POTD's...as as harsh as it was, we continued to post about news at Unreality, and the going ons at Unreality hosted sites.

GameSpy is a business, and as such, they need to generate revenue. The key revenue stream for PlanetUnreal is advertising, but that's being sacrificed when the UT community only gets some of their news at PU, meaning they have to go elsewhere for news on Tactical-Ops, UT: Jailbreak, etc... I think GameSpy's policy is still to post worthy news items, regardless of their linked affiliation, and that redef's stance is his alone.

--
clambert
p.s. Raptor didn't intend for this log to end up on PC.
#37 by "Eris"
2002-01-21 00:10:59
Besides, I FUCKING HATE when files are only made available on fileplanet and not anywhere else. Other than those two reasons, I do not have a problem with fileplanet's choice to charge for bandwith :P
#38 by "Morn"
2002-01-21 00:11:35
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Just for the record (and because you're all stupid): I'm not saying that GameSpy should or should not do something. I'm just saying that I think it is pretty short-sighted to not link to other sites with content your readers may be interested in for political reasons only.
#39 by "Morn"
2002-01-21 00:12:51
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Oh, and I think FilePlanet Personal Server is too expensive.

(Looking forward to the replies to this one.)
#40 by "Bailey"
2002-01-21 00:13:16
Heh, it's our fault you can't express yourself clearly, mr0n?
#41 by "Warren Marshall"
2002-01-21 00:13:29
warren_AT_epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Gunpoint
Bandwith and servers cost money but they don't cost the amount of money GSI is trying to make out of it.
A LOT of sites can support themselves by half as aggressive tactics as GSI's.

And don't tell me they need to pay their writers because everyone knows that there are enough writers who are willing to do it for free or just for the opportunity they're getting to run a site. People who are really a game's fanboi will be quite willing to run a fansite for free. That's how GSI did it in the past, so why couldn't they do it now?

Oh great, so you've got some insight into GSI's finances then?  Could you provide a link or email me the spreadsheet?  I'd like to see it for myself ...  I assume you aren't just talking out of your ass.

That's how GSI -did- it in the past ... when they realized that wasn't going to work forever, they changed their gameplan.  And hey look, GSI lives while gaming networks crumble and die all around them.

Eris
Yes, this in theory is true, but he was talking about them charging for files that are freely distributed *UNLESS* someone tries charging for them. (Pressing to CD, charging for downloading, they are not too dissimilar.)

But they aren't charging for the files.  Use their servers for free if you want.  You have to register, but that's hardly costing you anything ...
#42 by "HoseWater"
2002-01-21 00:13:36
http://www.opencrap.org
#34 Eris
As for charging for the files...You are paying to use their servers, and thier bandwidth, which I might add, you are still free to use at no cost if you wish.
>

Yes, this in theory is true, but he was talking about them charging for files that are freely distributed *UNLESS* someone tries charging for them. (Pressing to CD, charging for downloading, they are not too dissimilar.)


Am I wrong, or are they not charging for a vertical service.  Not only do you get to download the file, but you supposedly get a higher priority, and better download speed.  If they were locking up otherwise exclusive downloads behind a pay server only, with no other options, then I would be concerned, but as far as I know, you are paying for a premuim service, and not the file, which incidently, they also host for free on servers available to the general public.

-I was going to buy an Xbox, but one day my PC fell over, so I left it that way.
#43 by "Gunp01nt"
2002-01-21 00:15:26
supersimon33@hotmail.com http://planetp01nt.tmfweb.nl
#30 crash
a website not linking to other sites is like a big supermarket not offering to foot the bill to pave the road and the parking lot for its competition.

discuss.

Dude, the internet started as a place for FREE EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION. It doesn't suit GSI that they're making money out of something everybody else is doing for free.

Writing about Unreal and all those other games does not cost GSI any money, so why should they be making a profit out of it? If they should, then id, Valve, Epic and who not could ask big time money from GSI for making profit out of writing about THEIR games.

And I don't want to hear anything about 'money lovin' Americans' ('they're not thieves and cons, they're just honest people making some money out of what they do' - bleh!)
-------------------------
"Does anyone here speak l33t?"
#44 by "Caryn Law"
2002-01-21 00:17:11
carynlaw@pacbell.net
#32 Gunp01nt

Bandwith and servers cost money but they don't cost the amount of money GSI is trying to make out of it.
A LOT of sites can support themselves by half as aggressive tactics as GSI's.


You must know something that hundreds of other webmasters don't, because other webmasters every day are going under for one reason: they can't afford the bandwidth.


And don't tell me they need to pay their writers because everyone knows that there are enough writers who are willing to do it for free or just for the opportunity they're getting to run a site. People who are really a game's fanboi will be quite willing to run a fansite for free. That's how GSI did it in the past, so why couldn't they do it now?


There are people who will do these things because they love them (that's how I started out). Then, once the company begins to make money, they expect to be paid for being one of the people who got them to that point. It's fair, isn't it? You provide something to a company that gets them money, you expect to get some of that money in return.

And there may be enough writers willing to do something for free, but that hardly means they should. I can't begin to tell you how many people I had to turn away in my days at GameSpy because as enthusiastic as they were, they couldn't find proper grammar and syntax if it bit them in the ass.
#45 by "Warren Marshall"
2002-01-21 00:18:38
warren_AT_epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
HoseWater
Am I wrong, or are they not charging for a vertical service. Not only do you get to download the file, but you supposedly get a higher priority, and better download speed. If they were locking up otherwise exclusive downloads behind a pay server only, with no other options, then I would be concerned, but as far as I know, you are paying for a premuim service, and not the file, which incidently, they also host for free on servers available to the general public.

That's exactly right.  You can get the files for free if you want, but you can pay for the premium service which means no waiting in line, better download speed, etc.

Gunpoint
Writing about Unreal and all those other games does not cost GSI any money, so why should they be making a profit out of it? If they should, then id, Valve, Epic and who not could ask big time money from GSI for making profit out of writing about THEIR games.

Bandwidth isn't free.  Sure, writing articles doesn't cost them anything but 100,000 people reading it -does-.
#46 by "HoseWater"
2002-01-21 00:19:03
http://www.opencrap.org
To address morn's concerns, I agree, what they are doing is not in the best interest of their customers.  Smart customers, will come here, get the scoop, and be sure to add another link to their favorites list. Over time, that could be very costly, but I am sure a GSI bigwig would clue in and correct the situation before it became a life or death issue.  I doubt they are willing to sacrifice themselves over a dispute with PU.

-I was going to buy an Xbox, but one day my PC fell over, so I left it that way.
#47 by "Leslie Nassar"
2002-01-21 00:19:08
http://leslie.nassar.info/
You know why the Dutch aren't major world players?  Because they're all fucking stupid.
#48 by "Caryn Law"
2002-01-21 00:20:03
carynlaw@pacbell.net
#43 Gunp01nt

Writing about Unreal and all those other games does not cost GSI any money, so why should they be making a profit out of it?


Huh?

A writer spends time reviewing a game; that writer needs to be compensated somehow, whether its a free copy of the game or payment for the review. GameSpy does not get all their content for free; like every company, they must pay for the things their employees (or writers) provide them in order for everyone to make money.
#49 by "HoseWater"
2002-01-21 00:21:03
http://www.opencrap.org
#43 Gunp01nt
#30 crash
a website not linking to other sites is like a big supermarket not offering to foot the bill to pave the road and the parking lot for its competition.

discuss.

Dude, the internet started as a place for FREE EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION. It doesn't suit GSI that they're making money out of something everybody else is doing for free.

Writing about Unreal and all those other games does not cost GSI any money, so why should they be making a profit out of it? If they should, then id, Valve, Epic and who not could ask big time money from GSI for making profit out of writing about THEIR games.

And I don't want to hear anything about 'money lovin' Americans' ('they're not thieves and cons, they're just honest people making some money out of what they do' - bleh!)
-------------------------
"Does anyone here speak l33t?"


If game companies did not like what GSI was doing, they could crush them in an instant.  They could easily toss up thier own sites with amazing amounts of exclusive content at the drop of a pin. As it stands, game companies, and publishers are just taking advantage of a free ride, can't say I blame them.

-I was going to buy an Xbox, but one day my PC fell over, so I left it that way.
#50 by "crash"
2002-01-21 00:24:35
Whisp:

Convinced me, you're hired!

cool. when do i start, and how much does it pay?

Morn:

crash, does GameSpy have to pay money for its links to other sites? Geez, that must suck.

yes, actually, they do, unless none of the people working for GSI are getting paid. but gosh, y'know, i do believe that there are many GSI people that do indeed get paid. and remember, you busted out the analogy first. :)

I'm just saying that I think it is pretty short-sighted to not link to other sites with content your readers may be interested in for political reasons only.

it's not your job to decide what the politics of your readers are. it's your job to provide your readers with the content you can give them. if they want to read the other site, there are plentiful search engines for that sort of thing, and they can go read the other site if they wish.

note carefully that GSI is not telling their readers, "You may not read this." GSI is saying, "We're not going to encourage people to read this on our dime and our time."

Gunp01nt:

Dude, the internet started as a place for FREE EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION.

too bad it isn't that way any more. adapt or die.

It doesn't suit GSI that they're making money out of something everybody else is doing for free.

i'm laughing so hard at this statement i can't form a coherent reply.
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Home » Topic: The Internet would rock if it was all machines and no humans.

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