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They're Not Washed-Up, They're "Reminiscence Gifted"
January 14th 2002, 03:30 CET by Bailey

Arcadian Del Sol, of former Lum the Mad association, had an original post which can be found here. In response to which, we find Raph Koster's forum post. (scroll about 2/3s down or just search for "Raph") This of course, prompted Myschyf's reply to Raph's reply to Arc's post. Following which, we have Arc's summary of the situation around Myschyf's reply to Raph's reply to Arc's post. It begins to take a hint of "trite" at this point.

The general consensus seems  to boil down to this: "Games are boring and derivative, so we can't be bothered to rant about them with any real enthusiasm." The reply that immediately arises in my own mind, (which admittedly does not exemplify the "common sense" slice of humanity) is this: "If no one intends to make an effort to point out their mistakes, what makes you think anyone will stop making the same mistakes as they already have?"

Opinions?
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Home » Topic: They're Not Washed-Up, They're "Reminiscence Gifted"

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#1 by "Hopping Ein"
2002-01-14 03:36:23
www.guitarvader.com/cosplay.htm
Interesting...but what does this have to do with Shadowbane?
#2 by "Bailey"
2002-01-14 03:54:42
And wizard wants to know why I don't want discussion boards.
#3 by "Warren Marshall"
2002-01-14 03:55:04
warren_AT_epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
People who say games suck these days aren't looking hard enough.  Some of the best gaming experiences I've ever had have been in the last 12 months.  Just to throw one out here ... GTA3.  Oh look, here's another one : Baldur's Gate : Dark Alliance.  Halo, the Medal of Honor SP demo, Final Fantasy, etc.  The list goes on and on.

As for the rant sites ... I think the problem is that the novelty wears off and they're left with a site they don't really want to update anymore.  So they make some excuse and stop updating.  It's like the rant sites of old ... Flamethrower, BitchX, Evil Avatar ... they either stop updating once the novelty wears off, or they convert into a regular copy-and-paste news site.
#4 by "JJZ"
2002-01-14 04:13:03
http://www.opencrap.org
Eh.
#5 by "JMCDaveL"
2002-01-14 04:14:47
jmcdavel@mailandnews.com
ROFL GuitarVader


SUPERRRRR BROTHHHERRRRR
#6 by "m0nty"
2002-01-14 04:21:22
m0nty_au@yahoo.com.au no fixed abode
These bitch sessions are just another confirmation of the most visible fact of life in the post-Lum world of MMORPG ranters: they all take themselves waaaaaay too seriously. For instance, passages like this one from Arcadian's story:

I just wish that there was more of a universal appreciation for the things that sites like Lum the Mad accomplished, and in cases where they fell short you can still appreciate the mission. Granted, it was not always the most honorable task. There are indeed dark chapters to this story, but much like any great epic, if the anti-hero can find redemption in the end, oft-times he can become a hero.

Fer Chrissake, people: LUM != FRODO. He was not the Second Coming, nor was he a modern champion of the downtrodden. He was just a mildly successful amateur journalist who has now moved onwards and upwards. (And good luck to him, BTW.)
#7 by "HoseWater"
2002-01-14 04:29:43
http://www.opencrap.org
#3 Warren Marshall
People who say games suck these days aren't looking hard enough.  Some of the best gaming experiences I've ever had have been in the last 12 months.  Just to throw one out here ... GTA3.  Oh look, here's another one : Baldur's Gate : Dark Alliance.  Halo, the Medal of Honor SP demo, Final Fantasy, etc.  The list goes on and on.

As for the rant sites ... I think the problem is that the novelty wears off and they're left with a site they don't really want to update anymore.  So they make some excuse and stop updating.  It's like the rant sites of old ... Flamethrower, BitchX, Evil Avatar ... they either stop updating once the novelty wears off, or they convert into a regular copy-and-paste news site.


Yep, good call Warren, I was thinking the same thing, but you had the better words for it.  I think the FPS world went through the same sort of thing. A case of too much of a good thing perhaps?  I get around this by enjoying many types of games, and for the most part, restrict my time to playing them, and not talking about them anymore, at least not for months on end.

From the other side, the players of the games, the people who would be customers of these sites as opposed to the authors, they probably get bored of the games they are playing, and frustrated by whatever it was that was annoying them at the moment, and turned to ranting.

I avoid this by limiting myself to only playing my games now. I used to participate in the communites of the games I played, but these days, I play a game until I am done with it, then move on, no sense in hanging around in the community explaining to anyone who will listen why I'm not having fun anymore.

The last time I got too far into a game, and its community, was just prior to the CS rage which I tend to think I am better for having sat out, as I was totally burned out on the TeamFortress game/community at the time, and it now seems to be following the same pattern as the TF scene did, lots of bitter folk lying in the trenches with a list as long as my arm of gripes, and all tired of shouting them to anyone who would listen. I suppose even writing this is a sign that I am still damaged goods from that one, even though I look back at the times quite fondly.

My community experience is 99% targeted at people here now, and if a game has my attention, I will probably post a few lines letting people know if I am having a good time or not, most recent good time was with Undying.

-I was going to buy an Xbox, but one day my PC fell over, so I left it that way.
#8 by "HoseWater"
2002-01-14 04:34:46
http://www.opencrap.org
#6 m0nty
These bitch sessions are just another confirmation of the most visible fact of life in the post-Lum world of MMORPG ranters: they all take themselves waaaaaay too seriously. For instance, passages like this one from Arcadian's story:

I just wish that there was more of a universal appreciation for the things that sites like Lum the Mad accomplished, and in cases where they fell short you can still appreciate the mission. Granted, it was not always the most honorable task. There are indeed dark chapters to this story, but much like any great epic, if the anti-hero can find redemption in the end, oft-times he can become a hero.

Fer Chrissake, people: LUM != FRODO. He was not the Second Coming, nor was he a modern champion of the downtrodden. He was just a mildly successful amateur journalist who has now moved onwards and upwards. (And good luck to him, BTW.)


I can't say I've ever seen a list of what it is they think they have accomplished, but whatever it is they certainly do seem to hold themselves in pretty high regard.  

Having said that, I've never played on that side of the gaming street, so I have to confess upfront that I am completely talking out of my ass here just in case flamethrower decides to take me to task on the issue, and it turns out that they did indeed accomplish something.

-I was going to buy an Xbox, but one day my PC fell over, so I left it that way.
#9 by "Bailey"
2002-01-14 04:43:58
m0nty

These bitch sessions are just another confirmation of the most visible fact of life in the post-Lum world of MMORPG ranters: they all take themselves waaaaaay too seriously.

For the record, I believe Arc was the very, very worst for that sort of thing, the most extreme example. Well, aside from the SND kids demanding Smedley come down from his ivory tower and talk shop with them I mean.

But overall, I tend to agree. I'd imagine the important thing to remember when you're creating a site of your own to express your opinion, is that you're not going to be taken any more seriously than the kid running off 'zines at Kinkos unless you earn it. Doesn't happen too often.
#10 by "Warren Marshall"
2002-01-14 04:53:36
warren_AT_epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Bailey
But overall, I tend to agree. I'd imagine the important thing to remember when you're creating a site of your own to express your opinion, is that you're not going to be taken any more seriously than the kid running off 'zines at Kinkos unless you earn it. Doesn't happen too often.

I think there's some tunnel vision involved ... they start a site and a group of people write them, telling them what a great job they're doing and they figure that's how everyone feels.  If you only listen to people who like you, you can get a skewed perspective on the world.  :)

Besides, these sites are born of the widespread internet tendency to bitch.  About anything.  Loudly.

The most hilarious thing to come out of these sites for me is that Lum went to work for the enemy.  That still cracks me up ...
#11 by "Bailey"
2002-01-14 04:57:54
Warren

I think there's some tunnel vision involved ... they start a site and a group of people write them, telling them what a great job they're doing and they figure that's how everyone feels. If you only listen to people who like you, you can get a skewed perspective on the world. :)

Truer words and all that. Better to listen to your critics than your supporters. At least the intelligent critics.
#12 by "PogoTribal"
2002-01-14 05:41:17
susfapx0@juniata.edu http://students.juniata.edu/susfapx0
Wayyyy off topic, but you guys have to see this...

Drempels

It turns your desktop wallpaper into a screen saver type thing. Very neat.
#13 by "crash"
2002-01-14 06:11:08
the reason i personally think the rant sites have tapered off is that games, in general, have reached the level of Tolerable Suck.

rant sites were popular when plenty o' games were way past the acceptable limits of Intolerable Suck--where ranting about them was actually useful, to a degree, and productive, after a fashion.

but now, well, yeah, some games still suck, but it's an acceptable level of suck... so it's hard to really bitch and be sincere because the things that are wrong that are left are so petty. yes, games can be bland and boring and trite, but hell, at least their developers don't appear to think they're rock stars any more. their customer service staffs don't spend hours and days cybering on the mod channels and hooking up in real life and placing in-game stuff for their friends. their games (mostly) don't hose your system, or fail to work on tons of systems, or any of the plethora of things that used to go wrong.

and when they do, the "fury" is sharp and short, because gamers, by and large, are lemmings, and will continue to buy games no matter how fucking broken they are. they'll complain, sure. but end of the day, they'll still buy--and that's the bottom line. example? sure. all the anti-Verant people that i've heard from in the past will probably have already pre-ordered SWG.

convinctions don't mean a thing when you don't stick to 'em.

btw, post #1: roofle owned scrub. absolutely perfect.

addendum: ADS' "writing". self-editing is A Good Thing. so's a spellchecker.
#14 by "crash"
2002-01-14 06:12:39
and the irony of having previewed and written the above, with "convictions" horribly misspelled, has not been lost on me. then again, i don't claim to be A Notable Writer Of Merit And Worth. so there.
#15 by "Greg"
2002-01-14 06:21:24
greg417@worldnet.att.net http://www.laminggroove.com
Bailey,

What I saw from the original article (the article was very boring if you aren't into MMOGs), wasn't that games are boring and derivative, but that there is just a saturation point. And this Arc guy is just annoyed at having to cover so many games. So do what certain sites do, and just cover one or two games. I mean, why should they cover Anarchy Online? (other than to illustrate how not to release a game). If EQ isn't fresh and interesting anymore, then ignore it. Its rather simple, and there are sites out there today that still hold true to this concept. Sadly though, many sites that covered a single product or line have gone into "general" news and I think it is to their detriment. There are too many "general" news sites and they all share the same news. Why should I go to VoodooExtreme if I get the same stuff at Blues? But when VE covered Voodoo games and Blues focused on Quake, I could get vastly different news looking at both... We need to go back to the non-ad driven underground of the internet pre-1997 (or thereabouts). It was much more interesting...

Greg
#16 by "JMCDaveL"
2002-01-14 06:29:32
jmcdavel@mailandnews.com
That Drempels thing KICKS ASS
#17 by "Bailey"
2002-01-14 06:58:28
Greg

We need to go back to the non-ad driven underground of the internet pre-1997 (or thereabouts). It was much more interesting...

Didn't you hear? You can never go home again...
#18 by "m0nty"
2002-01-14 07:06:43
m0nty_au@yahoo.com.au no fixed abode
[url=http://www.adequacy.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/12/2/42056/2147]This[/url[] is brilliant. See how long it takes you.
#19 by "Anonymous"
2002-01-14 07:20:36
deleted deleted
Here's what we are seeing.

People are changing hobbies!! This happens all the time. Some people enjoy playing a certain sport very often. Let's say Baseball. But over time, people's interests change. They may enjoy another sport, golf. Or may enjoy another hobby all together, printing false euro bills and then using them to buy rounds at bars.

Of course, games aren't going to get much more enjoyable. Aspects in them will, but overall, a game in the now, is as fun as a game 20 years ago. It's a shock value of sorts. What was accepted as enjoyable 20 years ago, probably isn't as enjoyable now. But that's because we've seen improvements in tech which we perceive as being "better now."

On an individual level there are many exceptions. Some people now see games emphasizing what they enjoy. But others see games no as not emphasizing what they enjoy. Skill for instance. Learnability. ETC. ETC.

The real issue is in a macro sense. If the same, or more people are enjoying games each year then games are just fine.

I challenge one person here to say they don't change tastes. For instance, back 6 years ago I was in a movie phase. I'd rent 4 or 5 movies a week. Over a 3 year period, I saw around 600 movies. Now I rent maybe 2 movies a month. I got burnt out. Movie quality hasn't change all that much. But my tastes have changed. I do see myself getting back into Movies in the next quarter. My tastes will chang once again.
#20 by "None-1a"
2002-01-14 07:24:29
http://www.opencrap.org
#18 m0nty
http://www.adequacy.org/?op=d...l is brilliant. See how long it takes you.


The thing m0nty "what's a crap tag again" is trying to link to is this
#21 by "m0nty"
2002-01-14 07:26:04
m0nty_au@yahoo.com.au no fixed abode
I'll try that again without the added square bracket.

This is brilliant.
#22 by "Matthew Gallant"
2002-01-14 07:32:32
mg@truemeaningoflife.com http://truemeaningoflife.com
What are we supposed to see how long we are taking to do, m0nty?
#23 by "m0nty"
2002-01-14 07:34:02
m0nty_au@yahoo.com.au no fixed abode
To figure out that it's a con. It took me until he started talking about the Soviet hacker who created Lunix for me to be sure.
#24 by "Matthew Gallant"
2002-01-14 07:35:23
mg@truemeaningoflife.com http://truemeaningoflife.com
If it was "how long before interest was lost" it was 1.8 seconds.
#25 by "Matthew Gallant"
2002-01-14 07:37:25
mg@truemeaningoflife.com http://truemeaningoflife.com
#23 m0nty
To figure out that it's a con.


~1.75 seconds.
#26 by "Warren Marshall"
2002-01-14 07:39:45
warren_AT_epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Matthew
If it was "how long before interest was lost" it was 1.8 seconds.

LOL
#27 by "None-1a"
2002-01-14 07:45:46
http://www.opencrap.org
#23 m0nty
To figure out that it's a con. It took me until he started talking about the Soviet hacker who created Lunix for me to be sure.


Time to figure it out 1.2 seconds (tho I can still see people doing it)
Time untill I wanted to beat the heads of the creators out for linking every other word .05 seconds.
#28 by "crash"
2002-01-14 07:48:20
took less time to figure it out than it took for the page to load. and come on. wife Carol? son Peter? daughter Cindy?

signed, Mike Brady.
#29 by "m0nty"
2002-01-14 09:22:30
m0nty_au@yahoo.com.au no fixed abode
I notice crash has had an X-box game named after him. This gets me wondering what you lot would want a game named after you to be like.

Personally, I would like "m0nty - The Game (tm)" to be a Deer Hunter clone where you hunt rabbits and the occasional kangaroo with .303 rifles from the backs of utes. With dynamically generated open-ended storylines, of course. And this would be the box pic.
#30 by "crash"
2002-01-14 09:27:54

Crash is designed in the best Destruction Derby tradition, with the focus firmly on smashing your vehicle into the opposition and causing as much damage as possible in the process.

this is pretty much the game i would have made, really. it's how i play every driving game i ever get my hands on anyway.
#31 by "Gestalt"
2002-01-14 10:08:01
john@eurogamer.net http://www.eurogamer.net
Bailey - "The general consensus seems to boil down to this: "Games are boring and derivative, so we can't be bothered to rant about them with any real enthusiasm.""

*cough* ;)
#32 by "Desiato"
2002-01-14 10:36:20
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
#19 Anonymous
Here's what we are seeing.People are changing hobbies!! This happens all the time. Some people enjoy playing a certain sport very often. Let's say Baseball. But over time, people's interests change.


That is okay. I'll be here gaming until the electrons wind down and my techno-den is encased in the ice of a new oscillation in earth's weather patterns.

Honestly, my interest in gaming does wax and wane, but I still have my favorites to enjoy while I'm waiting for games to come out that appeal to me. I don't have to be sitting here pining away for the newest bauble when I have so much around me to investigate. Hell, the source of Quake 1 and 2 are just LYING AROUND waiting for me to peruse them. I can go as far as I want, or as little.

Gaming for some equals the desire to explore and examine every little detail. For others, it is to see how fast they can relegate the newest effort of 15+ people into the "Played it, cheated/blew through/ignored details/speedran it, and I'm done.....NEXT?" category.

I'd like to submit that if you make games, my friends and I like to examine and enjoy the product of a whole team's hard work. But that shouldn't be such a suprise - we're gamers, not speedrunners.

Until the next release....


Desiato
#33 by "flamethrower"
2002-01-14 10:49:18
nopedope thnxbro
*cough* ;)


Ouch, good article.

Does that make you Hammer McSpammer?
#34 by "Ashiran"
2002-01-14 10:51:12
ashiran@ashrain.net www.wtfpeople.com
Bailey, what the hell are you going to get yourself into? :)

#29 by m0nty
This gets me wondering what you lot would want a game named after you to be like.

Something strategy with an AI that is actually impressive.

#31 by Gestalt
*cough* ;)

Plugging again are we? Well I still refuse to read eurogamer until you bring structure (!long lists) in you archives. :)
#35 by "Speed"
2002-01-14 10:56:22
speed@crew.fragland.net http://www.fragland.net
to #15 Greg : I don't think there are too many general newssites around anymore that are any good.
Blue's, VE and Gaminggroove are the 3 that give a good roundup if you're looking for everything that has been posted a certain day concerning games, but next to those 3 I don't know many other good sites that cover the whole gaming scene on a daily basis.

I think most of the general newssites have disappeared already, with Stomped being the latest (and personally I don't think of Shacknews as a good general newssite actually)
#36 by "flamethrower"
2002-01-14 11:37:46
nopedope thnxbro
Anyone here got TWISTED METAL BLACK? As worth picking up as people are making out?
#37 by "Gestalt"
2002-01-14 12:13:50
john@eurogamer.net http://www.eurogamer.net
Ashiran - "Plugging again are we?"

Well I can't let other people get away with plugging my site in this thread without joining in myself. ;)


Ashiran - "I still refuse to read eurogamer until you bring structure (!long lists) in you archives"

Don't worry, we're upgrading to a better version of SQL (or something) soon hopefully which will allow us to implement a search facility and other stuff. Some of those feature index pages are getting a little out of hand, and the news archive never really worked properly. Seems a bit petty to ignore a site just because old features aren't sorted very well though. :p
#38 by "Petri Jarvilehto"
2002-01-14 12:45:16
petri.jarvilehto@remedy.fi http://www.remedy.fi/
Heh, check this out! Kiia's new experiement with Mixed Reality Pong rules :-)
#39 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2002-01-14 13:49:33
Darkseid@Captured.com www.sluggy.com
Irony

Using a `discussion` website to bitch about otherwebsites which are dedicated to `discussing` aka `bitching` about Games.


Ds
#40 by "jafd"
2002-01-14 14:24:04
kallisti@hell.com http://jafd.isfuckingbrilliant.com
Superlative. Thanks, Bailey.
#41 by "Leslie Nassar"
2002-01-14 15:26:12
http://leslie.nassar.info/
Anyone here got TWISTED METAL BLACK? As worth picking up as people are making out?

I grabbed it, it lost its charm pretty quickly.  I recommend renting it.
#42 by "Eris"
2002-01-14 15:53:38
#36 by flamethrower

For rental? Yes.
#43 by "m0nty"
2002-01-14 16:00:35
m0nty_au@yahoo.com.au no fixed abode
I was looking at the Monkeystone page for Hyperspace Delivery Boy and noticed that one of the screenshots contains the computer game staples of crates and dragons... in the same room! I had originally thought that HSB would kick off a long line of tired old rehashes and pastiches of past glories by Monkeystone, but obviously their game design is breaking new ground. Is this the first time that dragons and crates have appeared in the same room in a game? I never played Drakan, so I may be wrong, but I hope we may be witness to the birth of the New Golden Age of computer game design.
#44 by "Bailey"
2002-01-14 16:02:05
Ashiran

Bailey, what the hell are you going to get yourself into? :)

Let it never be said I don't have both masochistic and sadistic tendencies.

Darkseid

Using a `discussion` website to bitch about otherwebsites which are dedicated to `discussing` aka `bitching` about Games.

Well, the internet is the hotbed of information incest, innit?
#45 by "LPMiller"
2002-01-14 16:04:04
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
#44 Bailey

Well, the internet is the hotbed of information incest, innit?


And that my friend, is a beautiful thing.
#46 by "Ashiran"
2002-01-14 16:06:29
ashiran@ashrain.net www.wtfpeople.com
#43 by m0nty
Is this the first time that dragons and crates have appeared in the same room in a game? I never played Drakan.


Only if you flew the dragon into the room with the crates. Which was possible btw.
#47 by "Duality"
2002-01-14 16:37:57
Duality@neo-tokyo.org http://urf.gq.nu/
Quoth None-1a (#20)
#18 m0nty
http://www.adequacy.org/?op=d...l is brilliant. See how long it takes you.


The thing m0nty "what's a crap tag again" is trying to link to is this

Heh that was featured on a TechTV show last week ... they honestly couldn't make heads or tails of its validity.

-Duality
... secretly dressed as a genderless burrow owl!
#48 by "Post-It"
2002-01-14 16:40:31
- -
So has anyone seen 'Le Pacte des Loups'? It has managed to garner my attention as a film I might want to see. It seems like an intersesting idea for a film, a period horror(& kung fu?!?) set in France in the 1700's. Just curious if anyone has seen it, and is it worth seeing.

However, seeing as I majored in history in college, I don't remember any Shaolin monks establishing a moestary in 18th century France. However, according to recent cinema(that muskateer movie that came out awhile ago and now 'Le Pacte des Loups') they did. When was this discovered and why am I out of the loop?

Oh yeah, the topic. Umm...the concensus seems to be: no new MMORPGs have come out in awhile, except DAoC which is derivitive. So we're bored and complaining because we have no games to play. Hurry up and finish Star Wars: Galaxies damnit!
#49 by "Duality"
2002-01-14 16:42:24
Duality@neo-tokyo.org http://urf.gq.nu/
Quoth m0nty (#29)
I notice crash has had an X-box game named after him. This gets me wondering what you lot would want a game named after you to be like.

Personally, I would like "m0nty - The Game (tm)" to be a Deer Hunter clone where you hunt rabbits and the occasional kangaroo with .303 rifles from the backs of utes. With dynamically generated open-ended storylines, of course. And this would be the box pic.

I, too, have a game named after me -- and its an Action RPG.  And has some neat character models on the front page.
-Duality
... secretly dressed as a genderless burrow owl!
#50 by "leslie nassar"
2002-01-14 17:20:52
http://leslie.nassar.info/
So has anyone seen 'Le Pacte des Loups'?

Using the French title makes you sound so cultured.  Have you seen La cité des enfants perdus or Le fabuleux destin d'Amélie Poulain?

For what it's worth, Brotherhood of the Wolf was horseshit.
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