PlanetCrap 6.0!
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
T O P I C
Cop Killers
November 5th 2001, 18:57 CET by Gabe

I got Grand Theft Auto 3 this weekend. It has been a very good time so far, and I don't seem to be the only one enjoying it. For those that don't know, the basic premise is that you are working your way up various crime families by running missions that usually involve stealing a car and doing something like getting it fitted with a car bomb, manning a getaway car, etc. There are also many mini-games such as a Crazy Taxi mode when you steal a cab or you can man a firetruck and put out fires. You can also just drive around and create havoc. As you do bad things like running over pedestrians, blowing up trucks, or robbing banks, your wanted level begins to increase and the law tries to hunt you down. It can be a lot of fun just trying to increase your wanted level and seeing what happens as helicopters, FBI, and tanks are dispatched to eliminate you. About the only way to increase your wanted level enough to warrant this kind of attention is to kill policemen and other law enforcement people.

Is the game going too far? Not only are you encouraged to kill policeman, there is little consequence for killing pedestrians. You can pick up prostitutes and getting serviced by them heals you. As an added bonus, you can beat them to death afterward and get your money back. Videogames are always under attack for the violence they portray, and GTA3 has really upped the ante.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the game. That might also be worthy of discussion. Why is it so much fun, particularly considering the content?
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Cop Killers

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
#1 by "Stepto"
2001-11-05 18:58:52
stepto@gamersangst.com http://www.gamersangst.com
Did I beat foogla?

S.
#2 by "Stepto"
2001-11-05 19:00:34
stepto@gamersangst.com http://www.gamersangst.com
Good.  I did.  Its a small victory, but its MY victory.  re: the game.  It's so much fun simply because its so wrong. See South Park, etc.

S.
#3 by "Bailey"
2001-11-05 19:12:15
bailey@evilemail.com
If your only goal in life is one-upping Foogla, Stepto, you really, really need a hobby.

That being said, GTA3 is a hoot, but I got irritated with it around the second island when all the missions seemed to end up instantly bringing me up to three stars on the cop-o-meter. Getting the police after you is a hoot, but not when you're trying to gank someone, they're too cheap with spawns and unlimited numbers.
#4 by "leslie nassar"
2001-11-05 19:16:40
http://www.jesuslovesmefrombehind.com
I liked running over videogame pedestrians in 2D.  Running over pedestrians in 3D?  Hold me back!
#5 by "Caryn Law"
2001-11-05 19:18:28
carynlaw@pacbell.net
Well, the game is rated Mature, right? I think it's very clear that GTA3 is a game for rational adults who know the difference between right and wrong. The whole reason why we all love playing a game like that is because we're not allowed to do it in real life and most of us wouldn't want to. But we know that what's happening on the screen isn't real. And it's so over the top (haven't played it, but from what I've heard) that there's no way you can take the game seriously as some sort of motivating device to go out and do this yourself.

If parents are going to start complaining, then it comes back to the ratings debate. Don't want your kid playing it? Don't let them, and don't whine about how they'll play it anyway. It's not up to the gaming industry to raise your children. The rating is clear.
#6 by "leslie nassar"
2001-11-05 19:21:44
http://www.jesuslovesmefrombehind.com
Well, the game is rated Mature, right?

Is that what the big M is for?
#7 by "Gabe"
2001-11-05 19:37:11
gabe@opencrap.org http://www.opencrap.org
What exactly is the point of the ratings on the boxes? Do any stores restrict who they sell games to? I also almost never see parents out with kids buying games. Anyway, we know that the world is not overflowing with reasonable people, and this game is really going to give some people a lot of ammunition for criticism.
#8 by "mgns"
2001-11-05 19:37:13
wratte@home.se
It's a game, not a traffic school instruction simulator.

I haven't heard any critisism directed towards the game for its violent content. But OTOH, I haven't gone out of my way to find any either. And if some "parents against pixels"-cabal do argue against it, it's just gonna be the same old tune with different lyrics.

---
my other .sig is a funny one.
#9 by "Stepto"
2001-11-05 19:38:40
stepto@gamersangst.com http://www.gamersangst.com
If your only goal in life is one-upping Foogla, Stepto, you really, really need a hobby.


Most of my hobbies are illegal.  this one isnt.

S.
#10 by "Gabe"
2001-11-05 19:40:31
gabe@opencrap.org http://www.opencrap.org
#8 mgns
It's a game, not a traffic school instruction simulator.

And this is just the same tune the "games don't hurt anyone"-cabal whip out in response.

There probably isn't any criticism yet because it hasn't hit their radar yet. As far as I know, you can still buy it in Germany too.
#11 by "Duality"
2001-11-05 19:45:22
Duality@neo-tokyo.org http://urf.gq.nu
I don't think the game is going too far.  No farther than any previous iteration of GTA.  The way I see it, there's a reason it gets a Mature rating.  All of the people I've heard talk about GTA3 have been some of the most upstanding, normal people I've ever met.  I can't imagine any of them going out and actually performing any of the possible actions in the game.

Why do people play these games, why is it so fun?  IMO, its because its something most people would never even dream of doing for real.  People like being a badass now and then -- better in the privacy in their own homes than the streets.  Now admittedly, the game's not doing a whole lot to progress society, but neither is pro wrestling or jell-o, yet people still find personal enjoyment out of those.

-Duality
#12 by "Bailey"
2001-11-05 19:46:21
bailey@evilemail.com
Regarding game ratings on boxes, as I understood it, K-Mart and Wal-Mart weren't carrying anything near M for a good while... but after the hubbub died down, they've been quietly stocking them again. Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong, I don't go to these stores too often and never for gaming forays...

Regarding the whole issue of the game influencing real life, Penny Arcade did a rather amusing comic regarding that on Friday (I believe) which I'm not going to bother linking to as I assume you all read it anyway. But admittedly, while playing the game, the one thing that kept springing to mind was this: "Damn, cars are so expensive... and the cops seem to give up after five minutes even if I jack a car right in front of 'em. Things would be so much easier in real life if I could do this." There is a lot to be said for cruising around the city and looking for some wheels you like more than the set you're in now, heh.

If you haven't played Caryn, I recommend you do, I rented a system just to play this game and it was a good ol' time. Nothing like a game that rewards you for being a psychotic criminal. We need more gaming companies like this who are willing to portray both sides of the morality war, rather than just choosing between "hero" and "angsty anti-hero who's still heroic".

I like being the villian sometimes too, which is why the first mission I played in AvP2 last night was, natch, the alien. Fun game, if entirely too linear.
#13 by "Caryn Law"
2001-11-05 19:46:33
carynlaw@pacbell.net
#7 Gabe
What exactly is the point of the ratings on the boxes? Do any stores restrict who they sell games to? I also almost never see parents out with kids buying games.


No, they don't restrict it, and that's a separate issue. Just because the retailers don't want to take what they feel will be a hit in sales figures by refusing to sell the game to a minor doesn't mean that that's the game developers'/publishers' faults. They put parental locks on violence, they rate their games...what else are they supposed to do? They make it exceptionally easy for parents to monitor what their kids should and shouldn't play.

Maybe retailers should simply not sell M-rated games to kids without parental consent.


Anyway, we know that the world is not overflowing with reasonable people, and this game is really going to give some people a lot of ammunition for criticism.


Yeah, but why do we have to pay for the stupidity of others? If Joe Shmoe is an idiot who can't discern that the stuff you do in GTA3 isn't a good idea to do in real life and actually goes out and does it, why should you, as a rational, thinking person, have to pay the price for his stupidity?
#14 by "Caryn Law"
2001-11-05 19:48:12
carynlaw@pacbell.net
#12 Bailey

If you haven't played Caryn, I recommend you do, I rented a system just to play this game and it was a good ol' time.


I'm actually dying to play it, but don't have a system (maybe I'll do the rental thing like you did). I've been insanely jealous for the past week hearing y'all talk about it and hearing my friends tell me about it.
#15 by "Therac-25"
2001-11-05 19:50:02
zenfnord@hotmail.com
Makes me nostalgic for when people were upset at Night Trap...  This makes that look like a sunday school game...
#16 by "jjz"
2001-11-05 19:50:12
Gabe poisons the minds of today's youth and there's an odor that lingers about whenever he is near.
#17 by "wizard"
2001-11-05 19:52:00
wizardque@yahoo.com http://www.opencrap.org
#5 Caryn Law
Well, the game is rated Mature, right? I think it's very clear that GTA3 is a game for rational adults who know the difference between right and wrong. The whole reason why we all love playing a game like that is because we're not allowed to do it in real life and most of us wouldn't want to. But we know that what's happening on the screen isn't real. And it's so over the top (haven't played it, but from what I've heard) that there's no way you can take the game seriously as some sort of motivating device to go out and do this yourself.

If parents are going to start complaining, then it comes back to the ratings debate. Don't want your kid playing it? Don't let them, and don't whine about how they'll play it anyway. It's not up to the gaming industry to raise your children. The rating is clear.

I think the problem is kids can go just purchase these games...  Agreed, parents should pay attention to what their kids are doing, but should we let the kids whose parents don't pay attention play these games?  I think their should be something in place similar to the movies.  No sectioning off games that are rated R/mature, just make it so game boxes must be at least PG-13esque and only sell R/Mature rated games to people with proper ID.  It's not that big of deal, and it just makes sense.

As for the game, it sounds fun, but i'm a sensitive type, I don't want to kill "innocents" all the day long :P

-wizard
#18 by "Gabe"
2001-11-05 19:54:34
gabe@opencrap.org http://www.opencrap.org
#16 jjz
Gabe poisons the minds of today's youth and there's an odor that lingers about whenever he is near.

Yeah? Well you're a doody head.
#19 by "wizard"
2001-11-05 19:55:35
wizardque@yahoo.com http://www.opencrap.org
#11 Duality
All of the people I've heard talk about GTA3 have been some of the most upstanding, normal people I've ever met.  I can't imagine any of them going out and actually performing any of the possible actions in the game.

On a completely different subject...  Who defines "upstanding, normal people"?  That phrase always makes me shudder...we know their is no such thing as normal, everyone is freaky in their own way...  If you see someone that appears to be upstanding and normal, you need to be worried.  :)

-wizard
#20 by "Bailey"
2001-11-05 19:58:56
bailey@evilemail.com
Caryn

I'm actually dying to play it, but don't have a system (maybe I'll do the rental thing like you did). I've been insanely jealous for the past week hearing y'all talk about it and hearing my friends tell me about it.

Best route to go, in my opinion. I was dead set on buying one of these things as of last week, and now, having "owned" one for a week, I feel I can wait until the price drops significantly. It's nice and all, but it's not blowing me away in the long run, especially not with the current disappointingly small library of games... rather surprising to me, considering Sony's approach with the PS1, letting anyone develop a title for their platform in order to create huge libraries of product.

wizard

As for the game, it sounds fun, but i'm a sensitive type, I don't want to kill "innocents" all the day long :P

If it makes you feel better, you kill gang members too.
#21 by "wizard"
2001-11-05 20:02:29
wizardque@yahoo.com http://www.opencrap.org
#13 Caryn Law

No, they don't restrict it, and that's a separate issue. Just because the retailers don't want to take what they feel will be a hit in sales figures by refusing to sell the game to a minor doesn't mean that that's the game developers'/publishers' faults. They put parental locks on violence, they rate their games...what else are they supposed to do? They make it exceptionally easy for parents to monitor what their kids should and shouldn't play.

It my not be their fault, but it is partially their fault....  you can't create something, say the atom bomb, and not take at least partial responsibility...  Sure, this isn't a atom bomb or anywhere near it...but the idea is still their...  You create it, you pay attention to what happens to it.

Maybe retailers should simply not sell M-rated games to kids without parental consent.

Exactly

Yeah, but why do we have to pay for the stupidity of others? If Joe Shmoe is an idiot who can't discern that the stuff you do in GTA3 isn't a good idea to do in real life and actually goes out and does it, why should you, as a rational, thinking person, have to pay the price for his stupidity?

Where does it say we have to pay the price?  If this Joe you refer to, does these things, anything, not just a video game might have set him off...he was a...unhappy person to start with.  I agree, the video game industry shouldn't take responsiblity for these kinds of things.

-wizard
#22 by "Gabe"
2001-11-05 20:02:32
gabe@opencrap.org http://www.opencrap.org
#13 Caryn Law
Yeah, but why do we have to pay for the stupidity of others?

Doesn't it often seem like we have to pay for the stupidity of others? There is how we want the world to be and there is how the world is. This game takes violence in a pseudo-real setting to a new level and the enemies of videogames could latch on. Considering much of the game involves killing police, I can't see it being received too well in today's climate.

On the other hand, it is also a blast to play. I never knew I wanted to blow up cops in as many interesting ways as possible.
#23 by "Duality"
2001-11-05 20:03:27
Duality@neo-tokyo.org http://urf.gq.nu
#12 Bailey
Regarding game ratings on boxes, as I understood it, K-Mart and Wal-Mart weren't carrying anything near M for a good while... but after the hubbub died down, they've been quietly stocking them again. Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong, I don't go to these stores too often and never for gaming forays...

Hoping that I don't show too many "midwesterner" colors, I'll admit that I do go to K/Wal-Mart (just cuz they always have a good selection of Gundam toys, honest!).  I wouldn't say they've got a good selection of games, but it certainly isn't something to completely dismiss.  This includes some M rated games.  I certainly wouldn't make either of those places my First Stop for Gaming Needs or anything, but they do exist as a game retailer.

I like being the villian sometimes too, which is why the first mission I played in AvP2 last night was, natch, the alien. Fun game, if entirely too linear.

I'll admit that I just take in the linear levels as they are and don't complain, but that's just me.  But I will say for the first Alien level, I liked how they made concealed it.  Such as having more than one person in the area, forcing you to move on to find your victim.

The second level start is hands down the single coolest start of any level EVAR.

-Duality
#24 by "Duality"
2001-11-05 20:07:16
Duality@neo-tokyo.org http://urf.gq.nu
#13 Caryn Law
Maybe retailers should simply not sell M-rated games to kids without parental consent.

Suncoast did this to me years ago when I wanted to buy anime.  The clerk would actually ask for my mom's number and she'd call and make sure its alright.  Not that anyone today wants to actually perform customer service.

-Duality
#25 by "Foogla"
2001-11-05 20:07:50
Foogla@gmx.de
Stepto:

You and Gabe planned this, I swear. Next time Stepto, NEXT TIME!!!!


Topic:

I get 300 (virtual) dollar everytime I get a kill in CS, this game seems to be no more violent/rewarding in that regard. As for causing havock for it's own merit I can't comment since I haven't played the game.
#26 by "Duality"
2001-11-05 20:13:48
Duality@neo-tokyo.org http://urf.gq.nu
#19 wizard
On a completely different subject...  Who defines "upstanding, normal people"?  That phrase always makes me shudder...we know their is no such thing as normal, everyone is freaky in their own way...  If you see someone that appears to be upstanding and normal, you need to be worried.  :)

I define who is "upstanding and normal". :)

Besides, outside of the occasional devouring of babies and recreational crack smoking ... they're pretty decent people, don't hurt anybody and the like.

-Duality
#27 by "Caryn Law"
2001-11-05 20:14:31
carynlaw@pacbell.net
Reply to Gabe and Wizard, re: being responsible for the stupidity of others...

It isn't like they released the title into the wild for just anyone to pick up. The rating on there is meant to serve as the barrier to entry. So are parental locks, on other games (I'm guessing GTA3 doesn't have them since they never intended kids to play it at ALL). The publishers and developers have done everything they possibly can short of not releasing the game at all to warn people about the content in it.

It just bugs me that (and I'm not saying you're one of these people, Gabe; your points just remind me of this, that's all) when something is released that could be considered a corrupting influence, there are people who think we all need to be saved from it. It's a bit like someone complaining that because a movie isn't suitable for kids, it shouldn't be released at all. In this world, there are things that are for kids, and there are things that are for adults. Not everything needs to be watered down in this society because one person or another can't handle it. We put warnings on it, we put it on higher shelves or don't display it at all, we put locks on it, etc. Rational people should not be deprived of entertainment because the measures they place to prevent it from being seen by the wrong audience are ignored.
#28 by "Bailey"
2001-11-05 20:15:26
bailey@evilemail.com
Duality

I'll admit that I just take in the linear levels as they are and don't complain, but that's just me. But I will say for the first Alien level, I liked how they made concealed it. Such as having more than one person in the area, forcing you to move on to find your victim.

Very much so, that was a great time, I definitely had more fun as a facehugger than a chest-burster. The drone's great and all, but it's more slaughter than stealth, which is too bad... moreover, marines and technicians seem to be able to see me if there's a hold in the ceiling for hanging lights, but not if it's a grate. This doesn't make sense to me. More importantly, if I'm peering down from behind a hanging light, there's no way they should be able to see me. I'm above the normal field of vision, I'm a dark-colored shape against a dark background, AND I've got a bright light source facing them and not me. I should be relatively invisible until I drop down and start eating brainmeats.

The second level start is hands down the single coolest start of any level EVAR.

Very nice sense of drama applied there. I'll say no more.
#29 by "Spatula Man"
2001-11-05 20:19:28
llama@verbalchilli.com www.verbalchilli.com
Anyone want to give me their PS2?

*sob*

Does anyone know where to do the renting consoles thing in England? I've not done it before. I seem to remember Blockbusters used to rent Nintendo games... do they do consoles now as well?
#30 by "wizard"
2001-11-05 20:24:06
wizardque@yahoo.com http://www.opencrap.org
#27 Caryn Law
Reply to Gabe and Wizard, re: being responsible for the stupidity of others...

It isn't like they released the title into the wild for just anyone to pick up. The rating on there is meant to serve as the barrier to entry. So are parental locks, on other games (I'm guessing GTA3 doesn't have them since they never intended kids to play it at ALL). The publishers and developers have done everything they possibly can short of not releasing the game at all to warn people about the content in it.

Actually, that's not true...the publishers/developers haven't done everything they can...  Sure, they can't control the retailers, but they can do other things, get their industry together to form policies, talk to the retail industry to get them to form policies...  talk the numerous senators about better way to deal with these games then just banning them...

Rational people should not be deprived of entertainment because the measures they place to prevent it from being seen by the wrong audience are ignored.

Agreed.  And that's not what I'm advicating at all...  I'm saying the industry (retail/publisher/developer) actually needs to get it together and create policies that work before some senator with a stick up his ass about does and we lose games such at GTA3.  Me, I'm all for free speech...

Oh yeah, and the next person that decides for me what I need to be saved from, I'm going to smack them.  I can can make my own decisions as an adult, I don't the goverment saying what's good and what's not good for me (drugs, porn, free speech, art, etc).  I don't need senators whatching out for for me...  Only children need this...when they become adults, they can fuck up their own lives :)

-wizard
#31 by "Duality"
2001-11-05 20:45:53
Duality@neo-tokyo.org http://urf.gq.nu
#28 Bailey
Very much so, that was a great time, I definitely had more fun as a facehugger than a chest-burster.

Haven't played beyond the beginning of the second level for the Alien game.  Still trying to fight my way through the cave in the Predator level.  Still not sure how I'm supposed to fight 4 aliens in a small enclosure with only the melee weapon (as the plasmacaster will probably do you in first!).

That goes to show what someone said in another thread that the Predator is not designed for such environment.  (I suppose its okay, the entire hunt scenario in the beginning was absolutely thrilling to me!).

-Duality
#32 by "shaithis"
2001-11-05 21:05:36
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.shaithis.com
Wait a minute...

Killing pedestrians in the game gets you nothing. Killing cops also gets you nothing but more cops (and, eventually, death or jail). Both are fun, but neither are expressly encouraged by the game. The only violence it directly advocates is gang-on-gang violence.

None of that is to say that it's not a violent game, or that it doesn't glorify that violence, or even that it's not fun to run over cops in a giant armored military truck in the game... because it is.

But the truth is that if, for example, Heat - a movie which is incredibly sympathetic toward criminals - can be nominated for Oscars, there's no reason GTA3 shouldn't exist.

People have to take responsibility for their own actions (and parents for their kids'). I should not have to live in a sanitized world because some people aren't aware of the difference between videogames and reality. It is not my fault that my parents had half a clue how to teach their children morals without being oppressively over-protective, and other people's parents didn't.

Think of the children? Fuck your children. Put pressure on your retailers to enforce the ratings system, pay attention to what your kids are doing instead of sticking them in front of the tv, and give me my games.

... sorry, got a little carried away.

Why is it fun? Human nature. Senseless chaos is fun. Ever been driving and wanted to ram the jerk who just cut you off? Can't do it in real life. It's dangerous and expensive for you, for him. Very few people want to kill someone in real life. I certainly don't. But in the game, there's no consequences. That's why it's a game.

GTA3 is the best game that's come out this year. It's solid, it's fun as hell, the missions are open-ended, it's hysterically funny, and it's incredibly watchable. It deserves to be praised for that. The fact that it's violent is totally secondary.

-shai
#33 by "crash"
2001-11-05 21:05:59
crash@planetcrap.com
re: the intro. um, GTA has been around, in various iterations, for, what, four years now? and this is only a problem now? why? because it's console-only? doesn't have a rating on it? not understanding the issue, i guess...

oh, and a question for GTA3 owners/renters/players: is it possible to win/beat missions/scenarios without being a reprobate and mowing down cops? asking because i truly don't know.
#34 by "Gabe"
2001-11-05 21:16:39
gabe@opencrap.org http://www.opencrap.org
re: crash's post. Um, who said it was just an issue now? The point is it is taking it to a whole new level.

In general, to complete missions you have to avoid killing cops and you have to try and reduce your wanted level. However, much of the time spent in the game is seeing how much havoc you can create, and that involves killing as many law enforcement people (and anyone else in your way). Just read some of the posts in the previous thread when people were asking how they can INCREASE their wanted level.
#35 by "asspennies"
2001-11-05 21:21:17
asspennies@counter-strike.net http://www.asspennies.org/
Well I'd like to play this one.  But I haven't even finished Spy Hunter yet.  And I just got Civ 3.

So it's gonna be a while before I can even sit myself down and just go at it.  Still, it sounds like a fun game.

And as someone said previously, is this any different than blowing away Counter Terrorists (police) in Counter-Strike?   Is it really very different from going around and killing other players in Diablo 2?  Is it really all that different from being an evil god in Black and White and tormenting your subjects?

The only reason why the anti-social violence becomes an issue, I suppose, is the authenticity of the environments (not the realism, because lets face it, the game is about 10 million light years from being realistic).  But hey, we're teaching an entire nation of young children that it's ok to kill people in third world, deprived countries bcause you're trying to accomplism a larger, and particularly more noble, goal.  (Don't read anything into this, I fully support the action in Afghanistan) I don't really know where I'm going with this, and perhaps someone smarter can finish my thought for me, but it seems like violence is a part of life, and in some ways, it's cathartic for a society to have ways of reveling in that violence without actually causing the violence in real life.

After all, we love movies like Resevior Dogs and Pulp Fiction and The Usual Suspects and The Godfather.  We love the Sopranos.  We love the very idea of dramatized crime.  We love living vicariously in a fantasy that we know we'd never want to experience in reality.
#36 by "Gabe"
2001-11-05 21:25:00
gabe@opencrap.org http://www.opencrap.org
#32 shaithis
Wait a minute...

Killing pedestrians in the game gets you nothing. Killing cops also gets you nothing but more cops (and, eventually, death or jail). Both are fun, but neither are expressly encouraged by the game.

This isn't really true. What is true is that killing peds and cops doesn't progress you through the missions. Ultimately though, you play a game to have fun, and the game goes out of its way to make these activities fun and by doing so, encourages them.
#37 by "None-1a"
2001-11-05 21:25:18
http://www.opencrap.org
#34 Gabe
However, much of the time spent in the game is seeing how much havoc you can create, and that involves killing as many law enforcement people (and anyone else in your way).


Before another person pops up and says that was a part of GTA1/2 it should be pointed out that this is the first time you have to kill cops to get a highest wanted levels. Heck in 1 and 2 I manage the higher wanted level just by running into a whole lot of cars and killing no one.
#38 by "Sgt Hulka"
2001-11-05 21:37:20
ted_kennedy@drunkenbastards.com http://www.gayhitler.com
#32 shaithis
Wait a minute...
GTA3 is the best game that's come out this year. It's solid, it's fun as hell, the missions are open-ended, it's hysterically funny, and it's incredibly watchable. It deserves to be praised for that. The fact that it's violent is totally secondary.
-shai


MTV would strangle kittens if people watched it.
#39 by "Cliff"
2001-11-05 21:55:53
cps46@earthlink.net
#35 "asspennies" wrote...
After all, we love movies like Resevior Dogs and Pulp Fiction and The Usual Suspects and The Godfather. We love the Sopranos. We love the very idea of dramatized crime.

It's arguable that the movies and show you quoted there, although they dramatize violence, don't really glorify it -- it's pretty ugly stuff.  The average James Bond or Arnie flick, OTOH, tends to do the "bang bang you're dead" style of violence.

Whatever.  I really want to play GTA3 after having heard all this cool stuff about it.  

Violence and movies and games...it gets pretty tricky.  On the one hand, it's great to have relatively non-violent outlets such as sports, as well as non-physical outlets such as games for those still-innate-in-our-biochemistry urges.  

There's an almost reflex reaction to say games and movies and tv have no causal link.  And they don't, IMO, have any direct link, and I suspect any damage is outweighed by the letting off steam aspect.  But there may be some truth to the broader claims that it desensitizes.  However, in this as in all things, the devil is in the details.  Seeing Reservoir Dogs makes me less inclined to shoot people, not more.  As opposed to say, The Phantom Menace.

The other reflex reaction is, parents.  Parenting.  This is an easy point to score so everybody tends to go for it.  But the world has become more complicated; there are more single parents and more couples where both partners have jobs.  Advertisers and marketers are competing -- arguably with some success -- against parents for brainspace.  

Question for the floor:  do computer game marketers engage in the same sort of insiduous youth marketing cigarette makers do?  I ask this not in some attempt to paint them with the same brush, but because it seems to me that the "slap an M label on to satisfy the parents, then turn around and have kids buy it anyway" play is, from the game makers' perspective, pretty unbeatable.
#40 by "Bailey"
2001-11-05 22:24:32
bailey@evilemail.com
shaithis

Think of the children? Fuck your children. Put pressure on your retailers to enforce the ratings system, pay attention to what your kids are doing instead of sticking them in front of the tv, and give me my games.

When do we get to see you write an article about this on Gamespy? Preferably with the exact same wording, heh.
#41 by "crash"
2001-11-05 22:34:29
crash@planetcrap.com
Gabe:

Um, who said it was just an issue now? The point is it is taking it to a whole new level.

so did Soldier of Fortune--arguable that SoF was worse because it was first-person and "more immersive" thereby. more below.

In general, to complete missions you have to avoid killing cops and you have to try and reduce your wanted level. However, much of the time spent in the game is seeing how much havoc you can create, and that involves killing as many law enforcement people (and anyone else in your way). Just read some of the posts in the previous thread when people were asking how they can INCREASE their wanted level.

okay, so the game is designed around avoiding killing cops and reducing your wanted level, which is a good thing. so if you play the game the way it's apparently supposed to be played, this is a non-issue. however, because the game--perversely or whatever--actually rewards cop killing and mowing down pedestrians, it's somehow a bad thing.

never mind the fact that the people that play the game the "right" way will never reap the rewards that the sociopaths do, because they don't play that way... so... i guess it's because the game lets you do these things, and rewards you for them, that it's bad? even though the folks that would run down cops and pedestrians will do it ANYWAY, even if there were no reward? and, in fact, it's kind of an anti-reward, because i assume the more cops and pedestrians you kill, the exponentially more difficult the game becomes? (if it's anything like the first two.) so... by doing antisocial things, you make the game harder for yourself, but you get more stars or whatever. makes sense. it's not like Carmageddon here, right? where the challenge is to literally slaughter as many people as possible--most times, you never have to finish an actual race if you kill enough people, after all.

from the update again:

It can be a lot of fun just trying to increase your wanted level and seeing what happens as helicopters, FBI, and tanks are dispatched to eliminate you. About the only way to increase your wanted level enough to warrant this kind of attention is to kill policemen and other law enforcement people.

Is the game going too far? Not only are you encouraged to kill policeman, there is little consequence for killing pedestrians.

uh, no, you're not encouraged to--you yourself just pointed out that that makes the game more difficult. same with pedestrians. same with wreaking havoc in general. the more carnage that ensues, the harder the game is. it would seem to be reinforcing and encouraging "good" behavior, while at the same time rewarding "bad" behavior... a tricky feat. sounds like they got it right. also to consider: does the game have a "if you kill X number of cops and/or pedestrians, you will automatically win the mission" feature? bet it doesn't. in fact, i'd bet that there will come a point where you have killed so many people that it will become impossible to win because the opposition will be so numerous and fierce you can't possibly survive.

and the "it can be a lot of fun to..." part makes me laugh; if it's so offensive to you, why is it fun? maybe you need to answer that question first. ;)

how does GTA3 influence behavior? if you're not predisposed to it, you'll never notice, and if you are predisposed to it, rewards/penalties don't matter. i guess i'm not understanding still why this is a bad thing. sounds to me like it's done right. a bit brutal and maybe a bit graphic for the squeamish, but some would call that "unflinching", i suppose. but that's semantics.
#42 by "crash"
2001-11-05 22:35:15
crash@planetcrap.com
shaithis:

Think of the children? Fuck your children.

anyone else hear banjos playin when they read this line?
#43 by "JMCDaveL"
2001-11-05 22:42:38
jmcdavel@mailandnews.com http://rarr.blogspot.com
I can't speak for Walmart but I think they are about the same, but at Kmart we stock GTA3, Devil May Cry, Silent Hill, everything new that comes out, we don't give a fuck. Just those fucksticks in the AFA are boycotting us cause of our goddamn unedited cds, not because of our violent gory games and movies. In fact the only DVD that wasn't super-special-edition that I couldn't get at Kmart was Requiem for a Dream, everything else, including the wicked Dogma:SE we carried, and put on sale too. ;)

--jmc
#44 by "leslie nassar"
2001-11-05 22:49:33
http://www.jesuslovesmefrombehind.com
Sun to Microsoft:  "We were wrong"
#45 by "None-1a"
2001-11-05 22:51:20
http://www.opencrap.org
#39 Cliff
Question for the floor:  do computer game marketers engage in the same sort of insiduous youth marketing cigarette makers do?  I ask this not in some attempt to paint them with the same brush, but because it seems to me that the "slap an M label on to satisfy the parents, then turn around and have kids buy it anyway" play is, from the game makers' perspective, pretty unbeatable.


Depends you can push marking to kids a number of ways. I don't see any marketing aimed primarly at kids, but that's of little conser considing what officaly counts and doesn't.

Video game mags count simply because video games are viewed as being kids toys, so an ad for a violent game that's show up right next to a review for it is "marketing to kids" (they did simmaler things with cigarette, for example pointing to car mags as being targeting 16-19 year olds). Just to may dips that have no idea what the demographics of this stuff is saying it anyway.
#46 by "Gabe"
2001-11-05 23:00:26
gabe@opencrap.org http://www.opencrap.org
crash:

As I said in another post, the game does encourage mayhem. You cannot play it without accidentally killing pedestrians. You can't play it without having run-ins with the police, sometimes resulting in the police's destruction. Have you played it? Yes, it is true that you have to minimize police involvement to complete the missions, but there are many ways to play the game. Many people seem to be getting their most enjoyment from random destruction. That is one reason the game is being so well received. It is pretty open ended and there are a lot of things you can do, missions just being one of them.

and the "it can be a lot of fun to..." part makes me laugh; if it's so offensive to you, why is it fun? maybe you need to answer that question first. ;)

I never said I found it so offensive. I enjoy the game quite a bit. However, I do think it is really pushing the boundries. A game that allows me to beat a hooker to death after she has sex with me and drive over her corpse "just to be sure" is a tad extreme.

Right now, this industry has very few controls on it, much lower than the movie industry. Games like this are going to rapidly bring about a more strict rating system. Is that a good thing?
#47 by "Eris"
2001-11-05 23:24:55
deleted deleted
#46 by Gabe

It allows you to kill anyone, it's just that *YOU* chose to have sex with her. kill her, and run over her corpse "just to be sure".

Oh yeah, they're the sickies.

(Nods while slowly edging away from Gabe)
#48 by "Pacer Dawn"
2001-11-05 23:26:07
pacerdawn@iname.com http://www.triangledolfans.com
#46 "Gabe" wrote...
Right now, this industry has very few controls on it, much lower than the movie industry. Games like this are going to rapidly bring about a more strict rating system. Is that a good thing?

How is it a bad thing?
#49 by "Ashiran"
2001-11-05 23:27:13
ashiran@ashrain.net www.wtfpeople.com
Re: Violence in GTA3 awakens political correct man
There prolly wont be much of an uproar about it cause the discussion about hitting pedestrians with a car in a game started with Carmageddon 1, flared up a bit with Carmageddon 2 and then was never heard of again.

I mean, if they sell the game in Germany with people instead of robots then NOBODY is going to complain about it.
#50 by "Bailey"
2001-11-05 23:31:51
bailey@evilemail.com
Games like this are going to rapidly bring about a more strict rating system. Is that a good thing?


I honestly don't care what restrictions they apply. As an adult, this just means I won't encounter as many obnoxious 14-yr olds in-game, were it to be enforced. (still plenty of obnoxious 25-yr olds, but still) And it is sooooo unlikely we'll ever reach that point, where kids are refused games because of their age. Even if so, it's just like cigarettes, someone will be willing to buy it for them if they ask around enough.

Living in a country like Canada, I'm not worried. My government has funded historical documentaries on porn actresses, allows citizens to carry up to two marijuana cigarettes without being arrested, and has moderately reasonable gun laws. It's a pretty easy-going place to live, all in all. Though we're sometimes affected by American censorship regarding music or movies, by and large, we get to call our own shots, and it's mostly a liberal acceptance than if you pay money for something, and it's not illegal, you have every right to subject yourself to that product, whatever it may be.

On a personal level, if a game has a rating such as "Only A Sociopathic Criminal Will Buy This Game" and I want to play it, I wouldn't hesitate to take it to the counter with wide staring eyes and a lips-peeled-back-over-gums grin.

In fact, I'd enjoy the opportunity.
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Cop Killers

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
P O S T   A   C O M M E N T

You need to be logged in to post a comment here. If you don't have an account yet, you can create one here. Registration is free.
C R A P T A G S
Simple formatting: [b]bold[/b], [i]italic[/i], [u]underline[/u]
Web Links: [url=www.mans.de]Cool Site[/url], [url]www.mans.de[/url]
Email Links: [email=some@email.com]Email me[/email], [email]some@email.com[/email]
Simple formatting: Quoted text: [quote]Yadda yadda[/quote]
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
There are currently 0 people browsing this site. [Details]