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The Krauts do it again!
September 1st 2001, 00:36 CEST by Morn

If you are an old-school crapper, you may be able to remember a story on this site about a CD being sold in Germany with many, many Quake maps -- without the map authors' authorization. It's happening again! Ye gods!

<a href="http://forum.counter-strike.de/forum/Forum2/HTML/008160.html">This (German) forum thread</a> mentions a pretty big collection of Counter-Strike maps (1000+) being sold in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, available both on DVD and a 2-CD set.

The thread has a listing of all maps included; if you are the author of one or more of them and want more information regarding the collection (and maybe help do something about it), you can email <a href="mailto:gunslinger@counter-strike.de">Gunslinger</a> and <a href="mailto:bigbrother@counter-strike.de">BigBrother</a> of <a href="http://www.counter-strike.de">German CS fansite Counter-Strike.de</a>, who are currently trying to assemble a list of maps sold in the collection without their authors' authorization.
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#1 by "Morn"
2001-09-01 00:36:20
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Gah!

- Morn
#2 by "JMCDaveL"
2001-09-01 00:36:23
jmcdavel@mailandnews.com http://www.cosmicrift.com
FIST POST!!!!
#3 by "JMCDaveL"
2001-09-01 00:37:03
jmcdavel@mailandnews.com http://www.cosmicrift.com
And to prematurely end the thread:

IT REMINDS ME OF HITLER

WHAT A BUNCH OF NAZIS
#4 by "szcx codemonkey, PhD."
2001-09-01 00:37:04
http://www.sweetfuckingchrist.com/
Fucking Germans...
#5 by "mgns"
2001-09-01 00:48:03
wratte@home.se http://www.planetquake.com/wrath/
I think we had ourselves a big holler 'bout bad people pulling bad crap on nice people, 'twas over at qmap.org...
Basically, people will be able to do this, even though they aren't allowed to unless the author says it's ok, 'cause there is no quick way of stopping them.

Game developers (or more correctly; publishers) have known this for as long as they've made/published games, people will do stuff they shouldn't do, because it's easy to do it, and it's even easier to get away with it.

"Life sucks, buy a helmet."
#6 by "DanSTC"
2001-09-01 01:07:21
DanSTC@rinkworks.com
That reminds me...didn't the infamous activision-incognito Head Games publish a map pack Age of empires a long while back that was just a shovelware of maps from the internet?  And I believe there was also an unliscenced starcraft map pack my a different group that did the exact same thing.
#7 by "Warren Young"
2001-09-01 01:42:29
warthog@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com
This has been mentioned before: still, I wanted to congratulate Morn on his ever improving English lingo.

Case in point:
It's happening again! Ye gods!
#8 by "Ghost in my Shell"
2001-09-01 02:59:54
Why is this any diff from what fileplanet does now, they "trade" you files for your information and if you want a better deal you have to "pay" for it.

And if you say FP gives you a benefit, so does this CD since ppl dont have to waste their time downloading maps.
#9 by "Rambar"
2001-09-01 03:10:57
http://www.opencrap.org
#4 szcx codemonkey, PhD.
Fucking Germans...

Only with a ten foot prophylactic.

#8 Ghost in my Shell
Why is this any diff from what fileplanet does now, they "trade" you files for your information and if you want a better deal you have to "pay" for it.

And if you say FP gives you a benefit, so does this CD since ppl dont have to waste their time downloading maps.

A GSI bash, and in less than 10 posts.  I'd say that you're paying for the bandwidth, not the files.  Any care to tell us whether or not FP goes out and scours the net for files to mirror without permission?  Or do they only put stuff on their servers that's been specificially request or uploaded by an employee?

die
#10 by "Morn"
2001-09-01 04:14:08
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Good point about FilePlanet, but I'm pretty sure that whoever uploads something to one of GSI's sites probably agreed to have the file distributed in every imaginable manner possible (that's how it worked on cdrom.com, IIRC). I don't know how many "home-made" files that end up on FilePlanet are put there by webmasters or actually uploaded to sites by users/visitors. *shrug*

Joost? I know you're lurking. :)

- Morn
#11 by "llamasex"
2001-09-01 04:25:49
llamasex@yahoo.com www.drunkenlosers.com
I don't get it, is there a time warp kinda thing for other mediums like there is for TV. I mean if you can Dl them and you pay for an internet connection why can't you pay someone to download them for you. It seems like a fuzzy gray area.
#12 by "Warren Marshall"
2001-09-01 04:48:08
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicboy.com
JMC
FIST POST!!!!

Nope.  Not first .. and not fist either.
#13 by "JMCDaveL"
2001-09-01 05:55:49
jmcdavel@mailandnews.com http://www.cosmicrift.com
It was too, posts by the author dont count! :P
#14 by "Topaz"
2001-09-01 06:26:21
#9 I'd say that you're paying for the bandwidth, not the files

I'd say you're paying for the CD not the files that come on it. Lost of people are making money off of the work of others. Hosting maps on your site in order to direct traffic to your site which generates banner hits etc. etc.
#15 by "wabut"
2001-09-01 09:17:04
wabut@yahoo.com http://nsyncsupersite.cjb.net
Who would buy one of these anyway? A cd full of maps that nearly nobody else has(let alone servers have) means you'll be running around a map with yourself. Wheres the fun in that?
#16 by "Foogla"
2001-09-01 13:42:43
Foogla@gmx.de
Wabut:

Apparently this DVD/CD thingie sells like hot bagels, a lot of people will have this by the time Gunny or somebody else made the publisher stop.
#17 by "Morn"
2001-09-01 14:22:17
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
One thing I've noticed about these "collections" is that the people who make them usually try to make them look like official expansions. I wouldn't be surprised if many, many people bought them. :/

- Morn
#18 by "mcgrew"
2001-09-01 17:51:56
NOSPAMmcgrew@famvid.com theFragfest.com
#15 wabut asked who would buy them, that was the first thing that crossed my mind. Although the idea of archiving all the old maps on your hard drive to a CD to free up space is appealing, nobody would buy a copy of it.

Unless they were conned, in which case the victim isn't the mapper but the poor sucker that shells out however much for a worthless CD.

LAN play maybe??

No huge mcgrew post today, I only came out of lurk mode because somebody mentioned old timers
#19 by "Ghost in my Shell"
2001-09-01 18:01:35
#9 I'm just pointing out something, please point me to my "bashing." And you didnt read it correctly because your paying for a CD full of files if you buy this map CD they are providing you a service.
#20 by "Paul"
2001-09-01 19:37:14
deleted deleted
I've had this happen a few times to me. Ever go on ebay? People sell map cds there to!

I emailed one of the sellers asking if a "great map named Lunar Space Depot by some guy named Bullman was on the cd."

He said something to the effect of, "Yes, it's on there. Bid fast!"

Of course it violated the copyrights, but I figured if the guy is only going to make a 10 bucks on a bunch of maps, it wasn't worth my time. On the other hand, I've had people ask me if it's ok to include one of my maps on a cd, and typically I give them permission. And I've had people even ask for the sources so they can modify the map for their own purposes, and 99% of the time I send them the source.

It really comes down to asking. It's polite, and I think most mappers would oblige. And if it's going to be sold on mass proportion, as in 1000 copies, then the mappers should get a small kick back if their map is included.

- Paul
#21 by "superion"
2001-09-01 20:00:49
www.veryshamefull.com
haha, one of my maps is on it.

too bad they didnt include my de_abortionclinic :(
#22 by "Gunp01nt"
2001-09-01 20:14:48
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Tshh! Those damn Germans! first WWII and now this! :D

seriously, Germany is well known for its illegal software business. If you go to a big Dutch PC sale, there are always a few stands with germans trying to sell cheaply designed cds with tons of illegal software on it. Operations such as Twilight and Hit Explosion are based in Germany.
#23 by "Warren Marshall"
2001-09-01 20:29:48
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicboy.com
wabut asked who would buy them, that was the first thing that crossed my mind. Although the idea of archiving all the old maps on your hard drive to a CD to free up space is appealing, nobody would buy a copy of it.

Unless they were conned, in which case the victim isn't the mapper but the poor sucker that shells out however much for a worthless CD.

Would this be the same argument as, "Nobody would buy CounterStrike from the store when they can just download it for free"?  :)
#24 by "pol poindexter"
2001-09-01 21:08:22
backonthemap@hotmail.com
#21

As a person quite willing to leap into any trap set for him with *both* feet, I am going to stick out my neck here and ask for PlanetCrap folks to assist me here:

Can someone point out a link to download de_abortionclinic if it actually does in fact exist?

Or am I going to regret asking such a dumb question?  

/assumes fetal position, awaits shit kicking
#25 by "Anonymous"
2001-09-01 21:48:01
http://www.opencrap.org
I'd be disgusted if it did exist.


--
Dethstryk
#26 by "wizardque"
2001-09-01 21:49:49
wizardque@yahoo.com http://www.opencrap.org
#19 Ghost in my Shell
#9 I'm just pointing out something, please point me to my "bashing." And you didnt read it correctly because your paying for a CD full of files if you buy this map CD they are providing you a service.

That the providers paid no money for...you aren't arguing on the cd of the cd makers, are you?

-wizard
#27 by "wizardque"
2001-09-01 21:55:52
wizardque@yahoo.com http://www.opencrap.org
#25 Anonymous
I'd be disgusted if it did exist.


--
Dethstryk


Ok...me too...but, we see everything else in games...played soldier of fortune?  Played half the FPSs out there that want to be as bloody and disgusting as possible...?  Remember the days when nintendo wouldn't even allow red blood on their system (mortal kombat)?  It's all going down hill...

That said, I don't really have a problem with it...it's just a growing trend...I know I wouldn't let me daughter play these games until she is a teenager...at least...and by then we'll have virtual reality, you'll be able to smell and taste the gore...won't gaming be grand?  :)

-wizard
#28 by "Gunp01nt"
2001-09-01 22:15:42
supersimon33@hotmail.com
SOF was a little TOO real AFAIC. It had missions in Kosovo (or Bosnia? whatever). One of my sister's friends is an Albanian girl who used to live in Kosovo, but fled to the Netherlands (with her family) at the age of 8 (or so). I think she wouldn't be too happy if she saw we gamers are virtually partaking in the war that tore up her homeland and liking it.
And the enemy disecting thing (shooting every body part) was a cool feat, but they went on about it as if it were some sort of game renewing feature, but I stopped paying attention to it after 3 levels already.

Warren Marshall:
Would this be the same argument as, "Nobody would buy CounterStrike from the store when they can just download it for free"? :)

ARE people buying CS in the store? With new versions of it coming out every now and then, store versions are useless: you still need to do a download (or you could get some magazine cd's :) )
#29 by "Ghost in my Shell"
2001-09-01 22:25:38
#26

I just cant see the difference from a place like FP, and these guys selling cds.

If I put a map on FP, or these guys get it, I wont get paid for it, I just get my map hosted or slapped on a CD.
#30 by "Ghost in my Shell"
2001-09-01 22:32:51
See FP offers a service where they burn a cd with files from FP for 9.99, I just went through the whole process of purchasing a cd with maps I made.

How is this different from the guys selling maps on a cd in retail?

Personally I dont care, I would be happy as hell if my maps were being played and getting out...that would help in a career in getting into game design.
#31 by "__try"
2001-09-01 23:45:56
try@woodruffs.com
de_abortionclinic?  That's actually pretty clever, since that's about the only terrorism we see here in the states.
#32 by "Rambar"
2001-09-02 00:54:22
http://www.opencrap.org
The differance is in how they collect the files.  If you have to give FP permission to host your files rather than them just taking whatever they want of the net like these cd guys then they aren't the same thing.
die
#33 by "Caryn Law"
2001-09-02 00:55:20
carynlaw@pacbell.net
#30 Ghost in my Shell

Personally I dont care, I would be happy as hell if my maps were being played and getting out...that would help in a career in getting into game design.


The problem may be not so much a matter of permissions as it is precedence. By allowing someone to distribute something they don't own without the owner's permission, they're violating copyright and when no one confronts them about it, it sets up a kind of precedence that allows them to continue doing it. This may not be as applicable to maps, mods, and others as it is in other areas, such as writing, but the comparison IS somewhat relevant.

Copyright law says that when I write something, only I have the right to distribute it unless I give someone else permission to do that. This protects my right to make money off of my own work -- if someone else is charging money and potentially making a profit when they distribute something I wrote or made without my consent, they're profiting off of my work and I'm not seeing a dime of it. However, if I continually allow this to happen, I then help to establish precedence for it occuring later. It's like waiver in intellectual property law: if you show that you didn't take action to protect your intellectual property in the past when someone infringed on it, the courts will point to that and say that because you didn't defend it before, you gave up some of that right from that point on (that's a bit of an oversimplification, though, and if there are any lawyers reading -- I'm NOT a lawyer obviously -- feel free to correct any errors I may have made there).

Maps and mods kind of walk that line when it comes to intellectual property. You made the map, it came from your imagination, but you used the tools and game of another company (another company's intellectual property).

Sure, your maps are getting out there and are being played. But they never once asked you if they could distribute YOUR work. You might be happy they're getting played, but these people could be making a profit on that CD and it's at your expense. If no one confronts them about it now, it may give them an inch so next time they can take a mile.

- Caryn
#34 by "wizardque"
2001-09-02 01:02:25
wizardque@yahoo.com http://www.opencrap.org
#30 Ghost in my Shell
See FP offers a service where they burn a cd with files from FP for 9.99, I just went through the whole process of purchasing a cd with maps I made.

How is this different from the guys selling maps on a cd in retail?

Personally I dont care, I would be happy as hell if my maps were being played and getting out...that would help in a career in getting into game design.


That's one way of looking at....there's also a thing known as professional courtesy...Or maybe copyright (but I don't know on maps created for another's already copyrighted system).

It not only rude, it's just plain wrong.  Profiting off the working of others without their permission, is low...very low.

BOTH, the german cd creator and Fileplanet...

-wizard
#35 by "None-1a"
2001-09-02 01:46:40
none1a@yahoo.com http://www.opencrap.org
#33 Caryn Law
The problem may be not so much a matter of permissions as it is precedence. By allowing someone to distribute something they don't own without the owner's permission, they're violating copyright and when no one confronts them about it, it sets up a kind of precedence that allows them to continue doing it.


The precedence can expaned even farther then that. Say I gather up a bunch of people and start a game using an open source engine with the plan of making money off selling the assets. A company that's been distributing our pervious work could use that as evidence to allow them to distrubute the assets from the game we worked on as well. Pirate would then try to use the same argument for distrbuting fully closed source projects.

It's ass not arse, irregardless your a arse
#36 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2001-09-02 03:57:29
Darkseid@captured.com www.sluggy.com
5-1

5-1

England beat Germany 5-1 in football, Im not going to pander to the Americans whos 'world championships' tend to only involve themselves and call it soccer. The england squad didnt just beat Germany (arch rivals) they SLAUGHTERED them.....

Im both impressed and highly amused.

but this isnt relevent to the thread, so Ill just mod myself as -1 irrelevent.

Ds
#37 by "szcx codemonkey, PhD."
2001-09-02 04:39:43
http://www.leslienassar.com/
Here's another irrelevent comment;  Australia once again beat England in the Ashes series (4-1).

Rugby, cricket... the only Brit sport not dominated by Australians is soccer.  But only because it's the sport of pansy's.

:D
#38 by "Anonymous"
2001-09-02 06:52:00
"One of my sister's friends is an Albanian girl who used to live in Kosovo, but fled to the Netherlands (with her family) at the age of 8 (or so). I think she wouldn't be too happy if she saw we gamers are virtually partaking in the war that tore up her homeland and liking it."

Good thing no one gives an ameoba's paramecium-sized asshair follicle what she thinks.
#39 by "Rambar"
2001-09-02 07:58:27
http://www.opencrap.org
#31 __try
de_abortionclinic?  That's actually pretty clever, since that's about the only terrorism we see here in the states.

Well that and de_religiouscompound

die
#40 by "Sgt_Hulka"
2001-09-02 08:49:51
rwaring@teamevolve.com http://www.teamevolve.com
AFAIK I was the first person to ever sell additional levels.  In my first Doom Strategy guide, the last page of the book had an offer to send away $9.95 for additional DOOM levels that were shipped on 3.5" floppy disks.

I think id only had a problem with this when they realized I was making money selling these levels, lots and lots of money.  The difference is the maps I shipped were custom maps created by myself and a partner, not scraped off the internet and shipped with no credit to the original authors.  My Doom levels were also sold at a time when there were no clear rules about doing such a thing, and believe it or not, the rules haven't changed that much. I would imagine the only thing that can be done is for someone at id to sue these people to get them to stop, but will they?  Who knows.  

id Software might serve a cease and desist letter to this company in an attempt to get them to stop, but who's laws govern the CD's?  Germany or US?  I'd have to ask my lawyer and I'm sure he's sleeping right now.  It's almost 2am here.

Personally, I don't see it being any different than FilePlanet shoving them on a CD, although the text files would be intact at Fileplanet so the authors get credit.  Perhaps the CD does too, but with broadband getting more and more popular, as well as other high speed networks, the need to CD distribution of addon levels decreases.  Hell, you can grab a shitload of additional end user PainKeep Arena levels with a cable modem in less than 10 mins.

How's that for pimpage!?
#41 by "szcx codemonkey, PhD."
2001-09-02 08:55:18
http://www.leslienassar.com/
Hell, you can grab a shitload of additional end user PainKeep Arena levels with a cable modem in less than 10 mins.

Or I can buy a CD with all of them on it in less than 1 minute while I stand in line to purchase my sauerkraut, lederhosen, and german sheiser videos at 7Eleven.
#42 by "Sgt_Hulka"
2001-09-02 09:00:00
rwaring@teamevolve.com http://www.teamevolve.com
Don't forget to pick up Alpenland's latest CD of wacky German Mountain Music!
#43 by "Foogla"
2001-09-02 14:09:40
Foogla@gmx.de
It's "german scheiße videos" k danke tschüss.
#44 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2001-09-02 15:20:16
Darkseid@captured.com www.sluggy.com
Oi, you forgot Cs_Elian !


Ds
#45 by "...an ethereal being..."
2001-09-02 15:44:52
etherbe@cinci.rr.com
#44 by Darkseid-[D!]

Oi, you forgot Cs_Elian !


There's also cs_RubyRidge and de_OklahomaFederalBuilding.  Plus cs_Columbine (Note to counter-terrorists, you have to enter the school to win).
#46 by "Caryn Law"
2001-09-02 18:04:44
carynlaw@pacbell.net
#40 Sgt_Hulka

id Software might serve a cease and desist letter to this company in an attempt to get them to stop, but who's laws govern the CD's?  Germany or US?


If it's a US-made game, then I believe the US laws apply. The country under which the intellectual property was originally created has the right to enforce those laws, and you'll also find, I think, that copyright law is a worldwide concept.

The laws may have been vague back in the DOOM days, but they are much clearer now. The reason is that id (among others) has had to contend with people doing something like that a lot (I know, because I was often one of the points of contact for id whenever someone hosted on GameSpy was doing something like this). I'm almost positive that one of the clearest rules when making mods or maps or anything for a game is that you are not allowed to profit from your work.

- Caryn
#47 by "Jam Sandwich"
2001-09-02 19:47:11
jmason@beardz.net www.beardz.net
szcx codemonkey, PhD. (#37):
Here's another irrelevent comment; Australia once again beat England in the Ashes series (4-1).

Rugby, cricket... the only Brit sport not dominated by Australians is soccer. But only because it's the sport of pansy's.

:D


Dominated? Is that why last time England played the Aussies at rugby, we won? ;)

But hohum, I see Aussies are TriNations champs again. Bah.

*sulks*
#48 by "szcx codemonkey, PhD."
2001-09-02 20:11:55
http://www.leslienassar.com/
Dominated? Is that why last time England played the Aussies at rugby, we won? ;)

But you lost the series :P
#49 by "Gunp01nt"
2001-09-02 20:19:38
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Soccer/Football/Fussball/Voetbal/Foot/[fill in word in your language here):

Yeah great! England beat Germany! Always nice to see the Germans bite the dust.
I'm not gonna talk about Holland's performance against Ireland. And I don't wanna hear any fucking thing about it!!!! Not until me and my psychiatrist figure out how I could ever get over this disappointment.

Holland is not going to the world championship. First Aaliyah dies, and now this! And I was SO looking forward to seeing Japanese cheerleaders on TV.
Damn. Or, to use the correct Dutch expression:

"Verrekte uit de stront getrokken door de plee gespoelde in de kont genaaide FOKKING KUTZOOI!!!!!!"

thank you and good night.
#50 by "Jam Sandwich"
2001-09-02 20:23:18
jmason@beardz.net www.beardz.net
szcx codemonkey, PhD. (#48):
Dominated? Is that why last time England played the Aussies at rugby, we won? ;)

But you lost the series :P


No, that was the British and Irish Lions. The last time England played Australia, England won :) Oh and look, you're playing us again this year, wonder how it'll go :D

The Lions series was great though, down to the wire - I wont bother with the excuses because the fact is we still should have won :/
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