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More Norwegian MMOG Goodness!
August 2nd 2001, 21:51 CEST by Morn

<a href="http://www.darkfallonline.com">Darkfall Online</a> is a new massively multiplayer online roleplaying game being developed by Norwegian developer <a href="http://www.razorwax.com">Razorwax</a>. With new MMOG titles being announced every other day, what's special about this one?

Rather than lock ourselves up in our office for 3 years, cross our fingers, hope you like our game, and then release it, we are going to be doing an open development of Darkfall.

More details can be found in this <a href="http://www.darkfallonline.com/features/letter/index.shtml">"Open Letter"</a> by the developers.

Certainly sounds interesting, as this is something a lot of people unhappy with the traditional development cycles of large games have been suggesting for a while now. The future of game development, or a strong contender for "MMOG death of the month"?
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#1 by "Morn"
2001-08-02 21:51:50
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Thanks Blue for the news/link!

- Morn
#2 by "Houston"
2001-08-02 21:53:54
houstonx@pacbell.net http://olsentwinsnude.planetcrap.com
Why all the MMORPGs?  

I WANT MY LIFE BACK

thank you
#3 by "Gabe"
2001-08-02 21:55:04
gabe@opencrap.org http://www.opencrap.org
Cool, they're following the OpenCrap model!
#4 by "Anonymous"
2001-08-02 21:57:03
http://www.opencrap.org
I wonder if this OpenCrap stuff works.

-j
#5 by "Anonymous"
2001-08-02 22:04:57
all i have to say is, its about time
#6 by "Gir Draxon"
2001-08-02 22:07:42
darklax@dagorhir.com http://www.dagorhir.com
Entering preferences works. :P

I think what's key is how "open" is Open for them?  Plus its still smalltime.  Three years is a lot of time for things to happen.

-j
#7 by "Ergo"
2001-08-02 22:09:54
stu@dsl-only.net
OpenCrap is cool! When can we expect a right-click quoting option, Gabe?
#8 by "Jafd"
2001-08-02 22:13:02
kallisti@hell.com http://www.opencrap.org
Well, something has to be done differently, that's for certain. Anarchy Online sounds like a fabulous game I would love to play. But the beta4 didn't even install for me, and the odds of me actually buying the game before an "all clear" horn is sounded is far, far below 'zero.'

What really ought to be included, is some kind of reward system for finding and reporting bugs. Your average Joe User isn't going to bother at all, especially if they paid for a beta thinking it is a real game. And the above (or below) average user who enjoys finding bugs in order to exploit them doesn't have any interest at all in helping the game out, other than a vaguely ethereal threat of being banned at some hypothetical point in time.

Not to mention the teeming hordes who want to get in a beta test, thinking of it as a demo. Blech.

===========
I am a prototype for a much larger idiot.
#9 by "Jeremy Witt"
2001-08-02 22:18:04
kimsbitch@succubae.com
All clear wail the sirens
Sunshine on the wasteland
Old man sitting in the white sand
Think we're in for a big surprise
Right between the eyes...
#10 by "Narcopolo"
2001-08-02 22:40:57
I was really excited for a minute.  

Anyway, I'm not sure where you got the idea that it's "Open", Morn, but it's certainly going to put their game out there a lot faster than otherwise.  Maybe too soon.  But recent events have shown that MMORPG players are a very forgiving bunch, and they really can claim not to expect too much to start.  

Iteration is definitely the way to go for all software development, I'm pretty categorical on this.  So if they work out the bugs for the basic stuff, then add more later, less will be broken than if they'd added the pieces without a full regression/public test.  It'll save them money in the end.

And from reading their FAQ, I don't think they have to worry about the competition scooping their innovations:
What is the setting of Darkfall?
The setting of Darkfall is the typical High-Fantasy type, with dragons, elves, swords and sorcery.


It looks like an evolution of Everquest.  But Everquest might be an evolution of Everquest by the time this comes out.  I'm rooting for them, they are definitely the underdog with only 6 full timers.  But this move can also be seen as desperation, needful to get some buzz going about their product before they are staring at their 50th straight ramen noodle dinner.
#11 by "Narcopolo"
2001-08-02 22:46:09
Anyway, I'm not sure where you got the idea that it's "Open", Morn


Uh, other than from the "Open Letter" of course.  Sorry.  Heheh.  Hehehheh.  


I wish it really were open, but it's great that they are soliciting the opinions of what people want in a game.  They give the basic framework, but hopefully they'll be flexible about the particulars.  It'll end up appealing to those people who'd think about it and their friends.  Probably not too many more though.
#12 by "Gabe"
2001-08-02 22:58:35
gabe@opencrap.org http://www.opencrap.org
OpenCrap is cool! When can we expect a right-click quoting option, Gabe?

Soon. I refer you to the list. Progress has been moving pretty rapidly and quoting aids are high in my priorities.

Since the cat is mostly out of the bag... I have been working on a PlanetCrap browsing tool the last couple of weeks called OpenCrap. I have kept it to a limited few while I was starting it, but I guess it has reached a reasonable level of functionality. It does most of what you would expect: monitors PlanetCrap, lets you view the comments, and lets you post. Some features not in yet are automatic quoting and previewing of posts (so forgive me if this has some screwups in it).

Why is it called OpenCrap? At first, it is because of the open development style I have been using. Letting people check out builds pretty regularly, listen to suggestions, encourage helping to find bugs, things like that. Eventually once I am pretty happy with the codebase and things are pretty stable, I will be releasing the source code.

Enjoy!

-- Gabe
#13 by "None-1a"
2001-08-02 23:16:49
none1a@home.com
Thinking...
#14 by "Narcopolo"
2001-08-02 23:22:53
#12 Gabe

Hooray!
#15 by "None-1a"
2001-08-02 23:24:25
none1a@home.com
O poop I've made a thinking.

Anyway. Doesn't sound like much of a plan really. They've been working for 12 months, with just 4 fulltime people. They need more cash to resonable get this finished any time soonish. To get that crash they release was amounts to a publisher demo version to the public to build some buzz, and hopefully convence a few VCs that they do acctauly have something worth their money.

I'll probably be dead in a year, once the people that have been around for the pre-alpha stuff get board and move on to something else. Once they do finaly get to a 'finished' version people will just remember playing a 6 months ago and being able to do nothing more then shoot fireballs and summon lighting.
#16 by "JeffD"
2001-08-02 23:39:16
jeffd@fags.gamersangst.com
yawn.

Until an MMORPG comes out that's fundamentally different from the current "kill monsters/level/acquire lewt/sell lewt/kill monsters/level/acquire lewt/sell lewt...." paradigm that they seem to be stuck in, color me uninterested.
#17 by "Ergo"
2001-08-02 23:40:23
stu@dsl-only.net
Soon. I refer you to the list. Progress has been moving pretty rapidly and quoting aids are high in my priorities.


How about a spelling and grammar checker for None-1a?

/me ducks
#18 by "Glock"
2001-08-03 00:06:28
glock@avpnews.com
Until an MMORPG comes out that's fundamentally different from the current "kill monsters/level/acquire lewt/sell lewt/kill monsters/level/acquire lewt/sell lewt...." paradigm that they seem to be stuck in, color me uninterested.


Neocron?

www.neocron.de
#19 by "Whisp"
2001-08-03 00:11:19
#17 Ergo:
How about a spelling and grammar checker for None-1a?

Don't bother.  He won't be needing it for much longer anyway.

#15 None-1a:
I'll probably be dead in a year...

See?  I'll be sad to see him go.  

-Whisp
#20 by "Ergo"
2001-08-03 00:17:25
stu@dsl-only.net
Hee!
#21 by "shaithis"
2001-08-03 00:51:44
chrisb@gamespy.com http://www.gamespy.com
None-1a's spelling and grammar have improved quite a bit over the course of his presence here at the crap.

-shai
#22 by "None-1a"
2001-08-03 01:22:25
none1a@home.com http://www.opencrap.org
#15 None-1a:
I'll probably be dead in a year...

See?  I'll be sad to see him go.


Hum, considering the crap I keep having to deal with that may not exactly be an error.
#23 by "FP"
2001-08-03 01:50:41
freaparn@hotmail.com
Razorwax is comprised of a couple guys who couldn't get jobs at Funcom, I was talking to them and their Funcom chums back in beta 2 of AO. Read into the fact they couldn't pass FC's "stringent" hiring practice however you want. At the time, they said "It'd be really neat to make a mmog" (except in broken english).

I label Darkness Falls: "Dawn-like, but well-intended".
#24 by "m0nty"
2001-08-03 02:40:06
paul.montgomery@delphigroup.com.au www.delphigroup.com.au
Hmmm. How do you say "Derek Smart" in Norwegian?
#25 by "Fuzzie"
2001-08-03 03:14:05
fuzzie@warpedgames.com www.warpedgames.com
I'll be interested to see Darkfall Online, but if they haven't produced anything worthy of a decent test version (running around shooting fireballs != decent, imo) within 12 months, I don't have much hope for them :)

However, I'd like to think that I could be wrong, and that a community-driven development process will work for them :) I'll certainly be trying it out ...

But its a pity that they seem to be doing this as an act of desperation rather than something carefully planned from the beginning :/
#26 by "Jafd"
2001-08-03 03:49:40
kallisti@hell.com http://jafd.isfuckingbrilliant.com
/shrug
Maybe the PIG edition of Croteam? I wonder if there have been any interviews of them laughing all the way to the bank. Hopefully not dodging.

At the very least, it must be said, they are doing well for even trying. "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."

===========
I am a prototype for a much larger idiot.
#27 by "Okay so I'm Dinglehoffen: So what."
2001-08-03 04:41:22
The hills are alive@in the sound of music *ah-ah-a www.something, I can't remember.
Hi!

Did everyone miss me?
#28 by "EricFate"
2001-08-03 05:30:47
ericfate@yahoo.com
No.

You know, someone should introduce the Darkfall Online folks to the Dawn folks.  That many disillusioned castaways in one place might cause some sort of creativity implosion -- simultaniously striking them all blind and mute.
#29 by "m0nty"
2001-08-03 06:30:50
paul.montgomery@delphigroup.com.au www.delphigroup.com.au
#26, Jafd, that's an interesting question - did Croteam actually make any money from Serious Sam? On the subject, is there a list somewhere like Variety does for the movie business, where game title revenues and/or units sold are displayed publicly?

Things I'd like to see #476: the  Hollywood Stock Exchange expand into games (or Morn rip them off). I can see it already:

Analysts upgraded ANOL today from Long-Term Hold to Buy on news of an upgraded earnings outlook...

Shares of MAXP jumped 15 per cent in a late trading rally last night as investors brushed aside concerns over long-term playability...

"I'd like to place a buy order for 1000 of CIV3, and short DNF!"...
#30 by "Stepto"
2001-08-03 06:44:20
stepto@gamersangst.com http://www.gamersangst.com
So.  Has everyone seen the UK Brasseye pedophile special?

I'm leaving for the UK tomorrow and I think its utterly fucking brilliant.  Can't wait to share my American know it all opinion on the cab ride back from Gatwick.

S.
#31 by "JeffD"
2001-08-03 09:11:04
jeffd@fags.gamersangst.com
be careful limeys, stepto jiggles.
#32 by "Darren Coleman"
2001-08-03 11:09:34
durzel@barrysworld.com http://www.superficial.net
The Brasseye special was sheer brilliance.

Predictably all the tabloids and random politicians jumped on the "we didn't get the satirical undertones and took the programme at face value" bandwagon.  It's somewhat of a delicious irony that the fallout from the show has resulted in not only the various B-list celebrities (ie. Richard Blackwood, Philippa Forrester, etc) being parodied, but also the politicians/tabloid hacks who in the aftermath have demonstrated they have absolutely no satirical awareness.

It was nice to see Channel 4 getting behind the programme and not backing down (they even repeated it a few days after).  If you take the special in the context of what the rest of Brasseye was like, and take it in the spirit it is intended (ie. bleeding edge satire), the special wouldn't have been so controversial.

Some background:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/newsid_1464000/1464451.stm
#33 by "Spatula Man"
2001-08-03 11:20:17
llama@verbalchilli.com www.verbalchilli.com
Brasseye is wonderful.

What I don't understand is why everyone is getting riled up now, when the programme was a repeat.
#34 by "None-1a"
2001-08-03 11:26:44
none1a@home.com http://www.opencrap.org
Some background:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/t...stm


At lest your's got to be over something half way neet.

[url=]http://www.wane.com/Global/story.asp?S=408411
#35 by "Darren Coleman"
2001-08-03 11:32:41
durzel@barrysworld.com http://www.superficial.net
Brasseye is wonderful.

What I don't understand is why everyone is getting riled up now, when the programme was a repeat.

The special was a one-off, never before seen - marginally more controversial than the rest of the show (as you would expect it being a "special").  The Brasseye Special was aired once, and repeated a few days later despite the fact there was considerable furore after the first broadcast (2,500+ complaints apparently).

I must admit that some of the scenes in Brass Eye and particularly the special were somewhat difficult to watch in the presence of my sister who is moderately prudish - but any way you cut it Brass Eye and indeed Chris Morris' other creations are the bleeding edge of British satire.
#36 by "None-1a"
2001-08-03 11:39:26
none1a@home.com http://www.opencrap.org
Wow it didn't like that one bit.

URL

Note the protester could care less about the church and state thing, it's the gay Christ they want gone. They're also wrong about the taxpayer money thing. It play was funded by the director and donations not by the collage directly (they've since changed to focus just on it being located at a collage not who funded it).

Then again this is the city where can can't even build a high school stadium and classrooms with out people bitching (URL)

And I'm still trying to find this online poll their talking about (URL)

Ever get the feeling your swiming in a sea of stupidity?
#37 by "Claus Grovdal"
2001-08-03 12:33:01
claus@razorwax.com www.razorwax.com
Morn dropped me an email about the thread, so I had to come check it out.

We announced the game yesterday because we really want the input from potential future players. Obviously the buzz doesnt hurt either, but we have no illusions about landing a phat publisher deal just because we have a nice webpage and some screenshots.

We seriously want to give a more open development cycle a shot. You may call it an act of desperation, but for us it feels really great to finally get to talk about what we have been working on fulltime for 12 months.

Exactly how "open" it is can be discussed. We have 400 pages of game design, so we have a pretty good idea about what we want the game to look, feel and play like. But since we are geared towards the PVP market, game balance is extremely important, and for that we do need player input and player testing right off the bat.

Fuzzie mentioned that it took us 12 months to get here - please note that we made it all from scratch: 3D Engine, tools/worldbuilder, art, design and server. We are 4 people fulltime man, give us some credit here :)

And please dont compare us to Dawn Mr Eric Fate, our screenshots are real, and you can come try the engine in a couple of weeks ;)
#38 by "crash"
2001-08-03 13:07:26
crash@planetcrap.com
one thing i was wondering about this open beta period, though. are you really looking for beta testers, or just people to play the game and perhaps provide input? the reason i ask is that lately a number of MMOGs have been released in (to be generous) late-alpha/early-beta states. part of that, i do believe, is the reluctance of companies to put their beta testers to work--far, far too many people just "get in the beta" to play the game early.

i suppose my question is twofold:

1. are you going to require your beta testers to actually work? (actively beta, submit bug reports frequently, require them to do certain things at certain times, etc.) related to this, will you kick people out that don't work?

2. are you going to listen to them when they tell you something's broken? (this one's easy to say yes to, i understand, but both WW2O and AO's releases were accompanied by significant numbers of beta-testers saying, "this game is still terribly broken and it's not ready.")

will be interested in your replies.
#39 by "Flamethrower"
2001-08-03 13:09:42
patch@evilemail.com www.Jesus-vs-Judas.com
Well, GOOD LUCK.
#40 by "deadlock"
2001-08-03 13:36:12
deadlock@eircom.net
With regard to the Brasseye thing: how many of the complaints to the ITC were from people who had seen the special and how many were from people who had heard secondhand ? See, it reminds me of that scene in The Last Supper, where there's a woman complaining about the 'garbage' that they read in schools these days. She singles 'Catcher in the Rye' out as being one of the more sinister, cover to cover with the 'f-word' - hence revealing that she has never even read the book.

deadlock
flamethrower hates my country...
#41 by "Stepto"
2001-08-03 13:51:21
stepto@gamersangst.com http://www.gamersangst.com
re: brasseye

Yes as I mentioned I think its utterly fucking brilliant.  I watched it with my wife and there were scenes I was busting out laughing about that she felt were rather tasteless ("Look, they jiggle").  But its heartwarming to know that there exists something on Earth such that the words "Roboplaegic Wrongcock" can make both me and the woman I love laugh out loud together.

Thanks, Brasseye.

S.
#42 by "deadlock"
2001-08-03 14:43:59
deadlock@eircom.net http://homepage.eircom.net/~dlocked
test
#43 by "Flamethrower"
2001-08-03 15:06:44
patch@evilemail.com www.Jesus-vs-Judas.com
Brain Hook's new look
#44 by "Jeremy Witt"
2001-08-03 15:14:13
kimsbitch@succubae.com
"deed poll", indeed. You wonky Brits.
#45 by "Karl Palutke"
2001-08-03 16:03:36
karl@digitalsavagery.com
If the tiger man shows up here (in rural Georgia), he's likely to get shot and eaten by the natives.
#46 by "Sgt Hulka"
2001-08-03 16:55:32
sgt_hulka@hulka.com http://www.olsentwins.com

Post #43 Flamey "Brian Hook's New Look"


Bwahahaahha!
#47 by "JMCDaveL"
2001-08-03 20:11:29
jmcdavel@mailandnews.com Official Kmart Employee of PlanetCrap
Rarrr I'm a tiger!

Look it's Sulik! He needs a big sledgehammer though..

--jmc
~dat be a good thing fren~
#48 by "Fuzzie"
2001-08-03 20:54:01
fuzzie@warpedgames.com www.warpedgames.com
Fuzzie mentioned that it took us 12 months to get here - please note that we made it all from scratch: 3D Engine, tools/worldbuilder, art, design and server. We are 4 people fulltime man, give us some credit here :)


I can't really tell how much technology you've developed from what I've seen :) If you've got a really good engine and toolset and you've been concentrating on developing them rather than starting work on gameplay, then thats cool... I've seen a lot of vapourware projects, and at first glance this looks like one of them :)

But, like I said, I look forward to seeing it :P And you'll probably be able to laugh at me and say "what did you say about taking 12 months?" :) I hope you can :)

Anyway :P Why the hell am I trying to post on-topic here? I must be insane :)

That Brasseye was funny :) People just missed the point totally...
#49 by "deadlock"
2001-08-03 23:57:57
deadlock@eircom.net
Totally off-topic, flamethrower baiting and more annoying than morn's fixation with AO :P but it seems to me that bombing an area of London (Ealing) with a large Irish population is a really fucking stupid idea. That's not to say that bombing any part of London is a good idea, but come on ? Bombing your own ex-pats ?? The Real IRA - the intelligent face of Irish Republicanism.

Thank you and goodnight

deadlock

flamethrower hates my country...
#50 by "Speed"
2001-08-04 00:01:55
speed@crew.fragland.net http://www.fragland.net
Hmmm... to be honest... I'm getting fed up with all these MMORPG's.
isn't there anything else we can nag about ? Is everything that's going wrong in gaming land due to stupid massive multiplayer online games with shitty graphics and boring gameplay which only appeals to contact-disturbed people ?

I really used to love the threads on Planetcrap but lately I'm getting really bored... (also the reason I'm not posting as much anymore - not that I've posted as much as others here in the past)

I'm almost wishing Andy would come back (hmm... I'm not the first to say this, I've seen a comment from someone else stating exactly the same). At least we could laugh with some of the extremely stupid rumors he was posting...

For all I care, all MMORPG's can just get blown to hell and never come back. There's not one that could capture my attention (and I find it extremely funny that games like AO and Tribes2 need to get more patches than 10 single player games all combined)
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