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Id Software REALLY DOES ban Q3A mapping
May 15th 2000, 18:18 CEST by andy

Yesterday's Q3A thread was a bit of a joke... or so I thought. But it turns out that Id Software really has 'banned' people from making Q3A levels.



According to Id's Todd Hollenshead:

The EULA for 1.17 is the same EULA all of the other releases have contained and is the correct one.

Bizarre, but as this is the word from the horse's mouth, so to speak, we have to accept that Q3A is 'protected' by some extremely tight restrictions that most people probably aren't aware of. Specifically:

  • Players must accept that Q3A is still at the pre-beta 'test' stage.

  • The game can only be used for "testing the compatibility of your computer system" and for "non-commercial, recreational purposes". (This was misreported in yesterday's story, sorry about that.)

  • The latest patch can only be distributed electronically, so magazines can't include it on cover discs.

  • People aren't allowed to "create or develop extra or add-on levels".

I'm really not sure what to say about this. This is quite the most ridiculous EULA I've ever seen, and I'm still not 100% sure that it's the right one. But the current word from Id is that it's official, so until we hear otherwise, watch out...

Update:

Following some initial confusion, we can confirm that the EULA supplied with the Q3A v1.17 patch (and apparently all previous patches) does indeed say that people are not allowed to create add-on levels.

However, Id's Todd Hollenshead insists that add-on levels are NOT prohibited. This is his explanation of the situation:

The EULA applies to the patch only, and not the game or the tools. It doesn't function to override the EULA with the actual game, at least that's the intent. I can see where people might get confused, so I'll think about changing that in the future for the sake of clarification.

Usually I can at least have a go at understanding contracts, but I can't even begin to work out how the patch EULA doesn't affect the way you use the game. If it doesn't, what's the point of including an EULA with the patch?

The idea of having 'unclarity' in a legal document defies the purpose of the document. Sure, contracts can be hard to read, but as a rule their meaning is explicitly clear. Having any sort of unclarity... well, either it was written by a bad lawyer, or it was written by a very good one, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, Todd also sent along this explanation of Id's overall view on mods and levels:

id Software basically created the concept of user-modifiable games and that has been a hallmark of every id game since DOOM. Quake III Arena is the most modifiable game id has ever released and we continue to redouble our efforts to support the mod community in their endeavors.

From creating games with user modifiability in mind, to Paul Jaquays writing the Q3Radiant manual and offering advice and support on the messageboards at www.quake3world.com, to Robert Duffy's work on making world class tools available to the community for free and supporting the mod community with technical advice, to projects like the "Extremities" add-on for Quake II that resulted in mod authors making over $80,000 total so far, to John Carmack releasing the source code to Wolfenstein, DOOM, and Quake under the GPL, just to name a few of the initiatives we have used or are underway, we're making sure that no company is doing more overall to support mod authors and the amateur development community than we are.

C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "Houston"
2000-05-15 18:33:22
breynolds@us.infogrames.com http://www.www.www.www
Odd.

totally confused here.. waiting for a public statement from Id AND activision, and whoever wrote the damn EULA :)
#2 by "isa"
2000-05-15 18:33:28
mcfl0nuz@hotmail.com http://www.syntaxterror.com/toaster
That's funny...now back to porn...
-J
#3 by "loonyboi"
2000-05-15 18:34:09
jason@loonygames.com http://www.bluesnews.com/
All I can say is...

snuh?

-jason
#4 by "Phayyde"
2000-05-15 18:35:19
phayyde@chaosnow.com http://chaosnow.com/
Yeah that's the game EULA.  But when you install the tools, don't you have to click through another EULA?  I would think that this Development EULA supercedes the Gamer EULA.  Have you read the Dev EULA?
#5 by "None-1a"
2000-05-15 18:49:56
none1a@home.com
If Tod is right that means every patch release should have had the same EULA right. I don't have Q3A so any one know if the pre 1.17 patches use the same one.
#6 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 18:52:22
FWIW, I just downloaded the patch for Q3 to 1.17, and here's the EULA.  hope I don't get sued for posting it here, but it seems relevant and necessary for this thread to continue.

text bold added by me.

--------------------------

LIMITED COMPATIBILITY TESTING AND RECREATIONAL
USE SOFTWARE TEST LICENSE AGREEMENT

This Limited Compatibility Testing and Recreational Use Software Test License Agreement (the "Agreement") is a legal agreement between you, the end-user, and Id Software, Inc. ("ID").  BY CONTINUING THE INSTALLATION OF THIS TEST VERSION OF THE GAME PROGRAM ENTITLED QUAKE III: ARENA (THE "SOFTWARE"), BY LOADING OR RUNNING THE SOFTWARE, OR BY PLACING OR COPYING THE SOFTWARE ONTO YOUR COMPUTER HARD DRIVE, COMPUTER RAM OR OTHER STORAGE, YOU ARE AGREEING TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT.  

1. Grant of License.  Subject to the terms and provisions of this Agreement, <b>ID grants to you the non-exclusive limited right to use this Software only in executable or object code form and only for the purpose of testing the compatibility of your computer system with the Software and for non-commercial, recreational purposes.</b>  The term "Software" includes all elements of the Software such as data files and screen displays.  You are not receiving any ownership or proprietary right, title or interest in or to the Software or the copyright, trademarks, or other rights related thereto.  For purposes of this section, "use" means loading the Software into RAM and/or onto computer hard drive, as well as installation of the Software on a hard disk or other storage device.  You agree that the Software will not be shipped, transferred or exported into any country in violation of the U.S. Export Administration Act (or any other law governing such matters) by you or anyone at your direction and that you will not utilize and will not authorize anyone to utilize, in any other manner, the Software in violation of any applicable law.  The Software may not be downloaded or otherwise exported or reexported into (or to a national or resident of) any country to which the U.S. has embargoed goods or to anyone or into any country who/which are prohibited, by applicable law, from receiving such property.

<b>2. Prohibitions. You, either directly or indirectly, shall not do any of the following acts:</b>

a. rent the Software;

b. sell the Software;

c. lease or lend the Software;

d. offer the Software on a "pay-per-play" basis;

e. distribute the Software (except by electronic means, as permitted by section 3. hereinbelow) by any means, including, but not limited to direct mail, retail, mail order or other means;

f. in any other manner and through any medium whatsoever commercially exploit the Software or use the Software for any commercial purpose;

g. disassemble, reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile, modify or alter the Software;

h. translate the Software;

i. reproduce or copy the Software (except as permitted by section 3. hereinbelow);

j. publicly display the Software;

<b>k. prepare or develop derivative works based upon the Software; </b>

l. remove or alter any legal notices, such as trademark and copyright notices, affixed on or within the Software; or

m. create or develop extra or add-on levels for the Software.

<b>3. Permitted Electronic Distribution and Copying.  So long as this Agreement accompanies the Software at all times, ID grants to you the limited right to distribute, free of charge, and by electronic means only, the Software.  Anyone who receives the Software shall be limited to all the terms and conditions of this Agreement.  You may make only the following copies of the Software:   (i) you may download the Software from the Internet and onto your computer hard drive; (ii) you may copy the Software from your computer hard drive into your computer RAM; and (iii) you may make one (1) "back up" or archival copy of the Software on one (1) hard disk.</b>  <i>(huh?)</i>

4. Copyright.  The Software and all copyrights, trademarks and all other conceivable intellectual property rights related to the Software are owned by ID and are protected by United States copyright laws, international treaty provisions and all applicable law, such as the Lanham Act.  You must treat the Software like any other copyrighted material, as required by 17 U.S.C., §101 et seq. and other applicable law.  You agree to use your best efforts to see that any user of the Software licensed hereunder complies with this Agreement.  You agree that you are receiving a copy of the Software by license only and not by sale and that the "first sale" doctrine of 17 U.S.C. §109 does not apply to your receipt or use of the Software.

5. NO WARRANTIES.  ID DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE WITH RESPECT TO THE SOFTWARE.  <b>ID DOES NOT WARRANT THAT THE OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR FREE OR THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL MEET YOUR SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS. </b> ADDITIONAL STATEMENTS SUCH AS PRESENTATIONS, WHETHER ORAL OR WRITTEN, DO NOT CONSTITUTE WARRANTIES BY ID AND SHOULD NOT BE RELIED UPON.

6. Governing Law, Venue and Liability Limitation.  This Agreement shall be construed in accordance with and governed by the applicable laws of the State of Texas and applicable United States federal law.  Copyright and other proprietary matters will be governed by United States laws and international treaties.  Exclusive venue for all litigation regarding this Agreement shall be in Dallas County, Texas and you agree to submit to the jurisdiction of the courts in Dallas, Texas for any such litigation.  IN ANY CASE, NEITHER ID NOR ID'S OFFICERS, EMPLOYEES, DIRECTORS, AGENTS, LICENSEES, SUBLICENSEES, SUCCESSORS OR ASSIGNS SHALL BE LIABLE FOR LOSS OF DATA, LOSS OF PROFITS, LOST SAVINGS, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, INDIRECT, PUNITIVE OR OTHER SIMILAR DAMAGES ARISING FROM BREACH OF WARRANTY, BREACH OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE, STRICT PRODUCT  LIABILITY, OR OTHER LEGAL THEORY EVEN IF ID OR ITS AGENT HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES OR EVEN IF SUCH DAMAGES ARE FORESEEABLE, OR LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM BY ANY OTHER PARTY.  Some jurisdictions do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitation or exclusion may not apply to you.

7. U.S. Government Restricted Rights. To the extent applicable, the United States Government shall only have those rights to use the Software as expressly stated and expressly limited and restricted in this Agreement, as provided in 48 C.F.R. §§ 227.7202-1 through 227.7204, inclusive.

8. General Provisions.  A copy of all notices or other correspondence which you send to ID shall also be sent by you to ID's counsel:

D. Wade Cloud, Jr.
HIERSCHE, MARTENS, HAYWARD, DRAKELEY & URBACH, P.C.
15303 Dallas Parkway, Suite 700
Dallas, TX 75248
(972) 701-7000
Facsimile:   (972) 701-8765

Neither this Agreement nor any part or portion hereof shall be assigned or sublicensed by you.  ID may assign its rights under this Agreement in ID's sole discretion.  Should any provision of this Agreement be held to be void, invalid, unenforceable or illegal by a court, the validity and enforceability of the other provisions shall not be affected thereby.  If any provision is determined to be unenforceable, you agree to a modification of such provision to provide for enforcement of the provision's intent, to the extent permitted by applicable law.  Failure of ID to enforce any provision of this Agreement shall not constitute or be construed as a waiver of such provision or of the right to enforce such provision.  If you fail to comply with any term of this Agreement, YOUR LICENSE IS AUTOMATICALLY TERMINATED, WITHOUT NOTICE AND ID MAY PURSUE ALL RELIEF AND REMEDIES AGAINST YOU WHICH ARE AVAILABLE UNDER APPLICABLE LAW AND/OR THIS AGREEMENT.  You agree that in the event of litigation relating to this Agreement, the prevailing litigant shall be entitled to recover the prevailing litigant's attorneys' fees and expenses and costs of court in addition to all other relief available under this Agreement and/or applicable law.  <b>In the event this Agreement is terminated, you shall have no right to use the Software, in any manner and you shall immediately destroy all copies of the Software in your possession, custody or control.  You agree that your unauthorized use of any ID property, whether in whole or in part, would immediately and irreparably damage ID such that ID could not be adequately compensated by an award of monetary damages, and in the event of such threatened or actual unauthorized use ID shall be entitled to an injunctive order appropriately restraining and/or prohibiting such unauthorized use without the necessity of ID posting bond or other security.</b>

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE READ THIS AGREEMENT, YOU UNDERSTAND THIS AGREEMENT, AND UNDERSTAND THAT BY CONTINUING THE INSTALLATION OF THE SOFTWARE, BY LOADING OR RUNNING THE SOFTWARE, OR BY PLACING OR COPYING THE SOFTWARE ONTO YOUR COMPUTER HARD DRIVE OR RAM, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT.  YOU FURTHER AGREE THAT, EXCEPT FOR WRITTEN SEPARATE AGREEMENTS BETWEEN ID AND YOU, THIS AGREEMENT IS A COMPLETE AND EXCLUSIVE STATEMENT OF THE RIGHTS AND LIABILITIES OF THE PARTIES HERETO.  THIS AGREEMENT SUPERSEDES ALL PRIOR ORAL AGREEMENTS, PROPOSALS OR UNDERSTANDINGS, AND ANY OTHER COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN ID AND YOU RELATING TO THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THIS AGREEMENT.

 
April 23, 1999     5:11 p.m.


----------------------------------------


I see nothing about prohibiting making maps.

"prepare or develop derivative works based upon the Software; "
 
seems to me to refer to selling a game based upon the Q3 engine.... I guess it's a matter of interpretation.


________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#7 by "Houston"
2000-05-15 18:53:59
breynolds@us.infogrames.com http://www.www.www.www
So we ARE just buying an engine then and not a complete game.. *cough*
#8 by "UncleJeet"
2000-05-15 18:57:45
jeet@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Call me crazy, but shouldn't the original EULA that you agreed to upon purchasing, installing, and playing the game be the ONLY agreement?  Honestly, how can a company expect to change the agreement via a patch that fixes problems with the game?  That would be like taking out a whole new warranty on your automobile each time you got your oil changed.  Perhaps this is why id is saying that the EULA is the same now as it always was.  Only, what they're not saying, is that they messed up the original EULA on the game CD and can't rightly change up the agreement now.  Or, maybe it's just another one of those fun things in life that just plain don't make sense, but that nobody cares about anyway.  If level creation was actually "banned", then I'm sure id would crack down on sites that make user created levels available for download.  It's kinda like the California law that says you can't peel an orange in a hotel room.  Sure, it's there, but nobody really give's a rat's ass about it.

<b>Uncle</b> <i>My rat's ass could beat up your rat's ass</i> <b>Jeet</b>
#9 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 19:02:55
I'm wondering if the EULA just covers the patch.
 
 
It clearly states that you can download the software for free off the internet, something which seems to encourage warez.
 
that seems like the bigger story here.
 
<b>
So long as this Agreement accompanies the Software at all times, ID grants to you the limited right to distribute, free of charge, and by electronic means only, the Software. </b>
 

________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#10 by "Dethstryk"
2000-05-15 19:05:39
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
Hey, has anyone thought that ol' Todd didn't bother to check when he said it was the correct EULA? I highly doubt id Software is all of a sudden doing this on purpose, and it's just pointing out that Mr. Hollenshead didn't check, especially considering the date of the EULA. I wouldn't get so riled up over this one.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#11 by "Paul"
2000-05-15 19:05:51
paulb@aerosoftware.com
Seems to me what id is doing is simple: stating legally that they are not responsible for anything you do with the product, and that it reserves the right to hold you legally accountable for anything you do with it. In other words, if you create a level, chances are they will not do anything, but they still reserve the right to control 100% of the level. Also, there product is pre-beta, therefore it seems as though whatever may occur to your computer is not their responsibility.

They are protecting against a situation like a development team who is selling their add on for Quake3 without id/activision receiving kick backs.

Nevertheless, it still doesn't change the fact that id creates engines, not games.;-P

- Paul
#12 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 19:11:00
I think id needs to hire me as a creative consultant.  I'll make sure their next game kicks ass, not just the engine.
 
hehe.  :)
 

I think the id guys play their own games even less than the epic guys.   No wonder companies like Dynamix make such kickass games,  those guys are playing on servers with the fans almost every day.  like id used to do.



________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#13 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 19:14:56
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#4</b>, Phayyde:
<QUOTE>
Yeah that's the game EULA. But when you install the tools, don't you have to click through another EULA? I would think that this Development EULA supercedes the Gamer EULA. Have you read the Dev EULA?
</QUOTE>
It's even weirder...
<quote>
ID grants to you the [...] non-exclusive and limited right to use the Software to create your own modifications for operation only with the full version of the software game QUAKE III ARENA; provided, however, you shall not make any modifications unless and until you have agreed to be bound by the terms of the LIMITED USE SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT which accompanies the full version of QUAKE III ARENA.
</quote>
This doesn't make any sense. To be able to make Q3A levels you have to agree to the EULA included with the "full version" of the game, but the EULA with the patch requires you to accept that the game is still at the 'test' stage.

Hypothetically, even if you ignore the bit in the patch EULA about it being a test version, you still have to agree not to make any add-on levels. It's a catch 22 - you can only make levels if you agree not to make levels!

BUT... I think I know what's going on here. Look at this bit in the patch EULA...
<quote>
Failure of ID to enforce any provision of this Agreement shall not constitute or be construed as a waiver of such provision or of the right to enforce such provision.
</quote>
Presumably the license has been constructed in this way to give Id absolute rights to do whatever they want, but they can do it at their own whim. So if Joe Gamer makes a level, no problem - hopefully. But if Joe Gamer Inc decides to start selling levels, Id can say that not only is the selling of those levels prohibited, but the <i>creation</i> of them was prohibited, giving Mr Gamer less legal room to manoeuvre.

I'd love to see an EULA like this enforced in court. To say that people can't make levels for your game, and then not only give them the editing tools but also documentation explaining exactly how to do it, plus have your staff giving advice on message boards... how could Id ever successfully show that they didn't want people making Q3A levels? I'd be surprised if they could.
#14 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 19:23:32
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#6</b>, Bad_CRC:
<QUOTE>
I see nothing about prohibiting making maps.
</QUOTE>
The EULA you posted is slightly different from the one I've got. Where did you download the patch from?

The patch I've got is called Q3PointRelease_117.exe, is 8,908,987 bytes, and was downloaded from Blue's News yesterday.

This is the EULA that pops up when I execute that file, bold added by me:


LIMITED <b>COMPATIBILITY TESTING</b> AND RECREATIONAL
USE <b>SOFTWARE TEST</b> LICENSE AGREEMENT

This Limited Compatibility Testing and Recreational Use Software Test License Agreement (the "Agreement") is a legal agreement between you, the end-user, and Id Software, Inc. ("ID").  BY CONTINUING THE INSTALLATION OF THIS <b>TEST VERSION</b> OF THE GAME PROGRAM ENTITLED QUAKE III: ARENA (THE "SOFTWARE"), BY LOADING OR RUNNING THE SOFTWARE, OR BY PLACING OR COPYING THE SOFTWARE ONTO YOUR COMPUTER HARD DRIVE, COMPUTER RAM OR OTHER STORAGE, YOU ARE AGREEING TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT.  

1. Grant of License.  Subject to the terms and provisions of this Agreement, ID grants to you the non-exclusive limited right to use this Software only in executable or object code form and <b>only for the purpose of testing the compatibility of your computer system with the Software and for non-commercial, recreational purposes</b>.  The term "Software" includes all elements of the Software such as data files and screen displays.  You are not receiving any ownership or proprietary right, title or interest in or to the Software or the copyright, trademarks, or other rights related thereto.  For purposes of this section, "use" means loading the Software into RAM and/or onto computer hard drive, as well as installation of the Software on a hard disk or other storage device.  You agree that the Software will not be shipped, transferred or exported into any country in violation of the U.S. Export Administration Act (or any other law governing such matters) by you or anyone at your direction and that you will not utilize and will not authorize anyone to utilize, in any other manner, the Software in violation of any applicable law.  The Software may not be downloaded or otherwise exported or reexported into (or to a national or resident of) any country to which the U.S. has embargoed goods or to anyone or into any country who/which are prohibited, by applicable law, from receiving such property.

<b>2. Prohibitions. You, either directly or indirectly, shall not do any of the following acts:</b>

a. rent the Software;

b. sell the Software;

c. lease or lend the Software;

d. offer the Software on a "pay-per-play" basis;

e. distribute the Software (except by electronic means, as permitted by section 3. hereinbelow) by any means, including, but not limited to direct mail, retail, mail order or other means;

f. in any other manner and through any medium whatsoever commercially exploit the Software or use the Software for any commercial purpose;

g. disassemble, reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile, modify or alter the Software;

h. translate the Software;

i. reproduce or copy the Software (except as permitted by section 3. hereinbelow);

j. publicly display the Software;

k. prepare or develop derivative works based upon the Software;

l. remove or alter any legal notices, such as trademark and copyright notices, affixed on or within the Software; or

<b>m. create or develop extra or add-on levels for the Software.</b>

3. Permitted Electronic Distribution and Copying.  So long as this Agreement accompanies the Software at all times, <b>ID grants to you the limited right to distribute, free of charge, and by electronic means only, the Software</b>.  Anyone who receives the Software shall be limited to all the terms and conditions of this Agreement.  You may make only the following copies of the Software:   (i) you may download the Software from the Internet and onto your computer hard drive; (ii) you may copy the Software from your computer hard drive into your computer RAM; and (iii) you may make one (1) "back up" or archival copy of the Software on one (1) hard disk.

4. Copyright.  The Software and all copyrights, trademarks and all other conceivable intellectual property rights related to the Software are owned by ID and are protected by United States copyright laws, international treaty provisions and all applicable law, such as the Lanham Act.  You must treat the Software like any other copyrighted material, as required by 17 U.S.C., §101 et seq. and other applicable law.  You agree to use your best efforts to see that any user of the Software licensed hereunder complies with this Agreement.  You agree that you are receiving a copy of the Software by license only and not by sale and that the "first sale" doctrine of 17 U.S.C. §109 does not apply to your receipt or use of the Software.

5. NO WARRANTIES.  ID DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE WITH RESPECT TO THE SOFTWARE.  ID DOES NOT WARRANT THAT THE OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR FREE OR THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL MEET YOUR SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS.  ADDITIONAL STATEMENTS SUCH AS PRESENTATIONS, WHETHER ORAL OR WRITTEN, DO NOT CONSTITUTE WARRANTIES BY ID AND SHOULD NOT BE RELIED UPON.

6. Governing Law, Venue and Liability Limitation.  This Agreement shall be construed in accordance with and governed by the applicable laws of the State of Texas and applicable United States federal law.  Copyright and other proprietary matters will be governed by United States laws and international treaties.  Exclusive venue for all litigation regarding this Agreement shall be in Dallas County, Texas and you agree to submit to the jurisdiction of the courts in Dallas, Texas for any such litigation.  IN ANY CASE, NEITHER ID NOR ID'S OFFICERS, EMPLOYEES, DIRECTORS, AGENTS, LICENSEES, SUBLICENSEES, SUCCESSORS OR ASSIGNS SHALL BE LIABLE FOR LOSS OF DATA, LOSS OF PROFITS, LOST SAVINGS, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, INDIRECT, PUNITIVE OR OTHER SIMILAR DAMAGES ARISING FROM BREACH OF WARRANTY, BREACH OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE, STRICT PRODUCT  LIABILITY, OR OTHER LEGAL THEORY EVEN IF ID OR ITS AGENT HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES OR EVEN IF SUCH DAMAGES ARE FORESEEABLE, OR LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM BY ANY OTHER PARTY.  Some jurisdictions do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitation or exclusion may not apply to you.

7. U.S. Government Restricted Rights. To the extent applicable, the United States Government shall only have those rights to use the Software as expressly stated and expressly limited and restricted in this Agreement, as provided in 48 C.F.R. §§ 227.7202-1 through 227.7204, inclusive.

8. General Provisions.  A copy of all notices or other correspondence which you send to ID shall also be sent by you to ID's counsel:

D. Wade Cloud, Jr.
HIERSCHE, MARTENS, HAYWARD, DRAKELEY & URBACH, P.C.
15303 Dallas Parkway, Suite 700
Dallas, TX 75248
(972) 701-7000
Facsimile:   (972) 701-8765

Neither this Agreement nor any part or portion hereof shall be assigned or sublicensed by you.  ID may assign its rights under this Agreement in ID's sole discretion.  Should any provision of this Agreement be held to be void, invalid, unenforceable or illegal by a court, the validity and enforceability of the other provisions shall not be affected thereby.  If any provision is determined to be unenforceable, you agree to a modification of such provision to provide for enforcement of the provision's intent, to the extent permitted by applicable law.  Failure of ID to enforce any provision of this Agreement shall not constitute or be construed as a waiver of such provision or of the right to enforce such provision.  If you fail to comply with any term of this Agreement, YOUR LICENSE IS AUTOMATICALLY TERMINATED, WITHOUT NOTICE AND ID MAY PURSUE ALL RELIEF AND REMEDIES AGAINST YOU WHICH ARE AVAILABLE UNDER APPLICABLE LAW AND/OR THIS AGREEMENT.  You agree that in the event of litigation relating to this Agreement, the prevailing litigant shall be entitled to recover the prevailing litigant's attorneys' fees and expenses and costs of court in addition to all other relief available under this Agreement and/or applicable law.  In the event this Agreement is terminated, you shall have no right to use the Software, in any manner and you shall immediately destroy all copies of the Software in your possession, custody or control.  You agree that your unauthorized use of any ID property, whether in whole or in part, would immediately and irreparably damage ID such that ID could not be adequately compensated by an award of monetary damages, and in the event of such threatened or actual unauthorized use ID shall be entitled to an injunctive order appropriately restraining and/or prohibiting such unauthorized use without the necessity of ID posting bond or other security.

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE READ THIS AGREEMENT, YOU UNDERSTAND THIS AGREEMENT, AND UNDERSTAND THAT BY CONTINUING THE INSTALLATION OF THE SOFTWARE, BY LOADING OR RUNNING THE SOFTWARE, OR BY PLACING OR COPYING THE SOFTWARE ONTO YOUR COMPUTER HARD DRIVE OR RAM, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT.  YOU FURTHER AGREE THAT, EXCEPT FOR WRITTEN SEPARATE AGREEMENTS BETWEEN ID AND YOU, THIS AGREEMENT IS A COMPLETE AND EXCLUSIVE STATEMENT OF THE RIGHTS AND LIABILITIES OF THE PARTIES HERETO.  THIS AGREEMENT SUPERSEDES ALL PRIOR ORAL AGREEMENTS, PROPOSALS OR UNDERSTANDINGS, AND ANY OTHER COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN ID AND YOU RELATING TO THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THIS AGREEMENT.

 
April 23, 1999     5:11 p.m.
#15 by "RedLine"
2000-05-15 19:40:44
redline@omegaforge.com http://www.omegaforge.com/pod/
<B>OMG</B> -- I was trying not to say it on the first thread, but now that there are TWO THREADS THAT DEAL WITH EXACTLY THE SAME SUBJECT, I am forced to say it... <B>Andy is a dumbass</B>... for a start... post this as an update to the already dubious first thread, not as a new thread.  Secondly, since you just answered your own "question" with post <B>#13</B>, why not take the time to figure that out for yourself <B>before</B> posting inane stuff like this...

Now PlanetCrap is once again complete, we have the knee-jerk "geek tabloid" attention-getting hit-generating headlines "ID S0FTW4R3 W1|| 0WN J00R 455 1F J00 M4K3 L3V3L5 F0R Q3"

The mere fact that id has published tools and documentation and actively helps out in the making of levels, makes the EULA not worth the paper it is written on.

Perhaps the proper format of these TWO topics would be just ONE topic that points out the irony of this situation... that I would find "not dumb"... as opposed to this which just annoys me badly.

Ahhh anyways... Andy you amaze me... I've never talked with anyone else who can be so dumb and so intelligent in the same space... these two topics really are pointless, yet post 13 is just so spot on...
#16 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 20:04:48
<b>#14</b> "Andy" wrote...
<quote> The EULA you posted is slightly different from the one I've got. Where did you download the patch from?  </quote>

They are the same.
 
I just overlooked that line.   To me it seemed to apply only to people trying to make unauthorized commercial map packs (as has happened before)  but you are completely correct in that it definitely does not specify that it applies to commercial extensions only.
 
interesting.


________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 20:07:15
so many words redline, yet you add absolutely nothing to the discussion.
 
please read a little better before commenting next time.
 


________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#18 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 20:17:50
andy@planetcrap.com
Doh!

Bad_CRC - the version you posted <b>isn't</b> different from mine. I just ran the two of them through Word and there are no differences.

You've misread it. The bit about not making levels is there, clear as day. Look for the "prepare or develop derivative works" bit you put in bold, and the bit about levels is two lines down.
#19 by "Seth Krieg"
2000-05-15 20:18:20
sdk@rosenet.net http://www.unrealuniverse.com
Err, ok... Umm, how to go about this... Everyone is saying that the part about the "thou shalt not make levels" part was false, but in Andy's post I found that part, right here (in bold)
<quote>2. Prohibitions. You, either directly or indirectly, shall not do any of the following acts:

a. rent the Software;

b. sell the Software;

c. lease or lend the Software;

d. offer the Software on a "pay-per-play" basis;

e. distribute the Software (except by electronic means, as permitted by section 3. hereinbelow) by any means, including, but not limited to direct mail, retail, mail order or other means;

f. in any other manner and through any medium whatsoever commercially exploit the Software or use the Software for any commercial purpose;

g. disassemble, reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile, modify or alter the Software;

h. translate the Software;

i. reproduce or copy the Software (except as permitted by section 3. hereinbelow);

j. publicly display the Software;

k. prepare or develop derivative works based upon the Software;

l. remove or alter any legal notices, such as trademark and copyright notices, affixed on or within the Software; or
<b>
m. create or develop extra or add-on levels for the Software. </quote>

And right there at the top it says your are prohibited from doing that. Maybe I'm just missing something though.
#20 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 20:18:57
andy@planetcrap.com
Sorry, posted without checking for new comments. :)
#21 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 20:20:06
<b>#19</b> "Seth Krieg" wrote...
<quote> Maybe I'm just missing something though. </quote>
 
like about 3 of the last 5 posts, perhaps?
 
:)
 


________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#22 by "El Asso Wipo!"
2000-05-15 20:21:29
dickcheese@hotmail.com http://www.bluesnews.com
id is nothing more than a bunch of lawyers anymore.
#23 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-05-15 20:24:03
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#15</b> "RedLine" wrote...
<QUOTE>
Now PlanetCrap is once again complete, we have the knee-jerk "geek tabloid" attention-getting hit-generating headlines "ID S0FTW4R3 W1|| 0WN J00R 455 1F J00 M4K3 L3V3L5 F0R Q3"
</QUOTE>

He never said it in that tone at all.  Pay attention.

I knew a guy indirectly who worked at a company for a awhile.  A very large corporation near where I used to live.  He signed a contract at his job basically stating that any ideas he had were the sole property of his employer.  Kinda expect that right.  Well burried way down in the fine print it said <b> for a period of one year after termination of employment</b> only he skipped that part.  So he quit his job eventually and started his own company, an small engineering firm.  Well about the time he was sittin' pretty and his company was doing well, his old company comes in and says "surprise, next time you'll pay a little closer attention, till then thanks for all the hard work we really appreciate your little startup."  He lost everything.  I don't know about the people that worked for him, I moved before the story ended.
The moral of the story is that all that fine print stuff is important.  If you dismiss something because you think "they would never really enforce that" you are playing with fire.  This is an important issue not just in the game industury but in industry in general and I would just as soon see topics that I can apply to things outside of games.  If you don't like it, read something else, or post your own.

V

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#24 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 20:24:32
id and metallica, both are now more concerned with profits than with doing what people used to think they loved to do.
 
sad times.
 

of course, since id is being sued by everyone and their mother right now, it's a little understandable that they are going to try and do as much ass-covering as they can.


________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#25 by "El Asso Wipo!"
2000-05-15 20:52:35
dickcheese@hotmail.com http://www.bluesnews.com
If they are worried about people selling collections, or levels on a CD, then they should state that.  This agreements seems like they'll only come down on mods they don't like, i.e. Generations.

Selective lawsuits when it suits them, making the end user community walk on egg shells is not cool id!
#26 by "crash"
2000-05-15 21:46:06
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.gamecenter.com
looks to me like they didn't update the EULA that came with Q3Test, because this issue was around back then, and back then it made sense. that's what the bit about downloading is, i think.

as for the "huh?" Bad_CRC posted above, i think that process is to restrict how you use the thing:

<i>You may make only the following copies of the Software: (i) you may download the Software from the Internet and onto your computer hard drive; (ii) you may copy the Software from your computer hard drive into your computer RAM; and (iii) you may make one (1) "back up" or archival copy of the Software on one (1) hard disk.</i>

for whatever reason, they wanted to keep it at one install per download--most likely to more accurately track how many downloads they were getting, and comparing that with how much use the copies were getting. and the specifics of it may just be because, technically, the EULAs let you keep one archive copy off the hard drive. id apparently doesn't. this clause prevents CD distros, btw. and that's why they specified the "from the internet onto your hard drive"; failing that, you could have downloaded it straight to EZCD and did whatever you wanted. and the ram thing i think is because when you play, you sort of have two copies of the game at once, and that's prohibited by most EULAs. gosh, i love lawyers. my brain hurts now.

as for the rest? let 'em restrict it all they like. they're only kickin themselves squar' inna nutz if they do.
#27 by "kpl"
2000-05-15 22:24:06
kpl@oz.net
I agree with Crash, they must have forgotten to update the EULA since Q3Test. It makes no sense to put in the no add-on levels clause and test software clause otherwise. And if id has any competency they'd read about this thread on Blue's and have Todd shoot something back at us.

Besides, if id ever decides to sue a map maker, the maker can go up to the judge and say, "Hey, why the hell did they release a freely distributable map maker if they don't want us to make maps?"

And how enforcable are EULA's? Judges don't always enforce something people habitually don't read on a regular basis.
#28 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 22:44:44
andy@planetcrap.com
Note that I've added an update to the thread starter.
#29 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 22:56:07
andy@planetcrap.com
GSI has an MP3 server. Planetcrap tells people about it. Planetcrap is the bad guy.

Id uses a confusing EULA. Planetcrap tells people about it. Planetcrap is the bad guy.

We're the most evil site on the web!!

If you don't know what I'm talking about, check Blue's.
#30 by "El Asso Wipo!"
2000-05-15 23:05:45
dickcheese@hotmail.com http://www.bluesnews.com
I just did, Todd Holeinmyhead said "Extremities" add-on for Quake II that resulted in mod authors making over $80,000 total so far"



BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#31 by "Seven Tacos"
2000-05-15 23:15:20
kurto@asgaard.usu.edu
#38 - Um. Do you have any particular support for your disagreement, or is that just opinion? Do you have a reason to think Todd would be lie? That amount of copies doesn't really take a lot of sales to reach. I know several people who bought it because it's just easier to have the various mods, maps and patches on CD instead of having to DL them every time you have a need to reinstall.
#32 by "Seven Tacos"
2000-05-15 23:15:37
kurto@asgaard.usu.edu
Doh! Make that #30.
#33 by "Rantage"
2000-05-15 23:18:38
rantage@hotmail.com http://www.steelmaelstrom.org
Quoting <B>Todd</B>, as seen on <A HREF="http://www.bluesnews.com">Blue's</A>: <QUOTE>I think this is a case of general Internet silliness and conspiracy theorists running amok. Either that, or people with too much time on their
     hands and not enough to worry about ;-) The EULA is the same one we've used for every update to Q3A, so it's kind of puzzling to me
     why anyone is alarmed about it all of the sudden.</QUOTE>

Sorry Todd, but this "Internet silliness" is responsible for much of <B>id</B>'s success.

Furthermore, I don't find anything silly about people being concerned about the "fine print" in an annoyingly vague and confusing licensing document.

<QUOTE> id Software basically created the concept of user-modifiable games...</QUOTE>

In the same way Al Gore basically created the Internet.  <I>Feh!</I>  I recall <B>Adventure Construction Set</B> and a particular racing game (Racing Destruction Set?) on the C64 which gave me quite a bit of leeway in creating my own games.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#34 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-05-15 23:19:44
rhiggi@home.com
Maybe someone should send Todd Hooked On Phonics.  That way he could read the EULA.  Either that or something to purge the crack out of his system.  

what part of
<quote>
2. Prohibitions. You, either directly or indirectly, shall not do any of the following acts:
.........
m. create or develop extra or add-on levels for the Software.

</quote>
could you misentrep?  Maybe they don't <b>choose</b> to enforce them, but that doesn't change whats actually in the EULA.  We know its basically bullshit (that ID will start suing mapmakers) but instead of admitting they made a mistake etc. (that could be easily fixed) they've answered with more bullshit.  If you were paraniod before, their reaction kinda makes you wonder.  Corporate stupidity never ceases to amaze me.  


V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#35 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 23:26:30
andy@planetcrap.com
From Blue's, quote from Todd Hollenshead:
<quote>
The EULA is the same one we've used for every update to Q3A, so it's kind of puzzling to me why anyone is alarmed about it all of the sudden.
</quote>
Obviously it's because very few people read EULA's.

Remember when the tech community got all upset about Q3Test reporting players' video card info to Id without permission? Check out this quote from John Carmack:
<quote>
Yes, we could have (should have, meant to) included a notice that it was going on in the EULA, but honestly, how many people carefully read and consider every line of all the EULA's they click through? How much of a difference would that have made to people?
</quote>
So JC realises that people don't read EULA's, but apparently Todd thinks it's wrong of us to point out when something in an EULA is confusing.

It's a strange world we live in, folks...
#36 by "[Q3F]RR2DO2"
2000-05-15 23:28:40
rr2do2@q3f.com http://www.q3f.com
I'll try to clear some things up on this issue. It's pretty easy.

You must understand that the EULA that comes with the 1.17 patch (and the other patches) is an EULA for the PATCH and not for the GAME (where GAME is the software called Quake 3 Arena, created by id Software and published by Activision)

If they (id Software) didn't forbid the creation of maps for and derived works from the patch, it would be possible for someone to create a (non commercial) game that ONLY needs the patch to run. Eg a Total Conversion that doesn't need Quake 3 Arena to run. Of course, this would be pretty harmfull for id. Because it would make people stop buying the game, and just downloading the patches to play a mod.

It's the same reason as why they forbid the existance of mods and levels that work with the demo versions of their game.

- Arnout 'RR2DO2' van Meer
  Q3F Development Team Member
  rr2do2@q3f.com
#37 by "Seven Tacos"
2000-05-15 23:29:39
kurto@asgaard.usu.edu
Or we could actually look at this with a plain view from all directions. This EULA is displayed when you install the patch and is relevant to the bit of code being installed. So you can't make maps for the patch. Not the combination of the patch and the CD, but the patch itself. Woop.
#38 by "Seven Tacos"
2000-05-15 23:30:20
kurto@asgaard.usu.edu
#36 - Grr. What he said.
#39 by "Rantage"
2000-05-15 23:32:42
rantage@hotmail.com http://www.steelmaelstrom.org
<b>#36</b> "[Q3F]RR2DO2" wrote...
<QUOTE>
If they (id Software) didn't forbid the creation of maps for and derived works from the patch, it would be possible for someone to create a (non commercial) game that ONLY needs the patch to run. </QUOTE>

Huh?

If somebody went to all the trouble of making a game based upon a Quake <I>patch</I>....dontcha think the part of the agreement stating that it was forbidden to...
<QUOTE>
(g.) reverse engineer, disassemble, decomplile, modify or alter the software
</QUOTE>
would cover it?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#40 by "[Q3F]RR2DO2"
2000-05-15 23:35:59
rr2do2@q3f.com http://www.q3f.com
#39:

Nope, cause 'the software', or in other words the Quake 3 Arena 1.17 Patch (where this EULA is created for) and all the files that came with it wouldn't be

a) reversed engineered, or
b) dissembled, or
c) decompiled, or
d) modified, or
e) altered.

Instead, just the creation of NEW media, not existing in the patch would be all there is needed to make a game based on 'the software'.

- Arnout 'RR2DO2' van Meer
  Q3F Development Team Member
  rr2do2@q3f.com
#41 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 23:44:30
andy@planetcrap.com
FYI, this is a quote from an e-mail Todd sent me:
<quote>
People get all wound up over really silly stuff. I'm glad you clarified this with us.
</quote>
Thanks us privately, insults us publicly. Isn't it amazing how low people can sink when there are a few PR points in it for them?

And I really, really believed that Id's attitude had changed nowadays... guess I'll have to start taking the cynic pills again.

I'm off to go get some air... something stinks around here.
#42 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-05-15 23:56:24
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Andy :

<quote>I'm off to go get some air... something stinks around here.</quote>

That smell might be because of you posting quotes from private emails in a public forum.  Doesn't seem like an action that someone who's always shouting about doing the right thing would do ...

Just an observation.  Feel free to flame.
#43 by "Rantage"
2000-05-15 23:59:39
rantage@hotmail.com http://www.steelmaelstrom.org
<b>#40</b> "[Q3F]RR2DO2" wrote...
<QUOTE>
Instead, just the creation of NEW media, not existing in the patch would be all there is needed to make a game based on 'the software'.
</QUOTE>

Well no <B>S</B>, Sherlock.  But how will this "new media" be designed if the developers don't know the ins and outs of the patch?

Oh my God...they have to <I>reverse engineer</I> a few things.  And then you've violated <B>g.</B>

And if by some miracle they don't do <I>that</I>, the EULA <I>still</I> lays the smack down on developers trying to:
<QUOTE>
k. prepare or develop derivative works based upon the Software;
</QUOTE>

I have <B>BloodGasm 1.0</B>.  A patch comes out, which states that I cannot make levels <I>for that patch</I>.  Does this mean that I cannot make levels compatible with <B>BloodGasm 1.1</B> since the patch is now a part of the game as a whole?

The real problem here is that Andy found a case where somebody <I>wasn't paying attention</I>, and now the company in question and its fanboys are springing to its defense with the most convoluted set of excuses since the O.J. Simpson Trial.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#44 by "El Asso Wipo!"
2000-05-16 00:00:22
dickcheese@hotmail.com http://www.bluesnews.com
For Mod Authors to make $80,000.00 on a $19.95 product that was in bargain bins within a week of it's release it mind boggling.  I would challenge Todd to prove that, I find it VERY hard to swallow.  I think he may have stretched the truth a bit, but the fanboys will believe it.
#45 by "RedLine"
2000-05-16 00:02:26
redline@omegaforge.com http://www.omegaforge.com/pod/
[17] Bad_CRC

This is a discussion... in a discussion people state their opinions... I stated my opinion... I contributed to the discussion.

[23] Vengeance[CoD]

Actually I think it was, if you read both of the two threads on this subject, but then, that is just my interpretation...

<B>Ok, I'd like to be sensible now. ;-)</B>  What your friend did was to <B>sign</B> a legally binding document with his own signature... the fact he didn't read all the fine print, or have a lawyer do it for him, is his mistake.

It could be argued that a EULA is not legally binding because you never <B>sign</B> it... clicking the "next" button is not the same as putting your personal signature down on a contract... you could say that your kid brother installed Q3 on your PC and you never read the EULA... I know ignorance does not protect you from the law, but if someone forges your signature and you can prove it... same applies here.

Also, there is a thing in law that deals with how reasonable something is, and even a real contract can be declared void if you say something that is unreasonable... like you could have in the fine print that if you leave your job of your own accord, the company has the right to adopt your first-born son... Ok a silly example, but still, you get the idea.

The point is that the EULA is just like this... it says you cannot make anything for Q3 and yet <B>id</B> have released the tools, documentation, code/examples and actively help community developers out... I'd like to see the EULA stand up to that in court...

Ok... this is all obvious to anyone who takes a few seconds to think about it, yet it is deserving of two main items on the 'Crap ?  My point stated slightly heatedly is just that... Common sense tells us the EULA is a sack of BS that would not stand up in court if <B>id</B> ever tried to use it as a way to get a mod stopped... but we will never know if a court would think the same until the situation arises, so we can all talk until we are blue in the face, and where is it gonna get us ?

Absolutely nowhere, that's where... hence why I think this topic is inane.

There, I stated my opinion and I made an intelligent contribution to the topic as well.  How about that.  I'd like to offer an <B>appology</B> to <B>Andy</B>... I shouldn't have gone off like that in the first place.
#46 by "El Asso Wipo!"
2000-05-16 00:03:26
dickcheese@hotmail.com http://www.bluesnews.com
Let's say there is a A title that sells 120,000 copies in a six month period.  That's a good seller, not bad, not great.

At $29.99, it sells into store at 15.00, that means the royalty rate goes against the sell in value.

120,000 X 15.00 = 1.8 Mil

This doesn't take into account production, distribution, warehousing costs, but that would mean Todd and the boys gave almost a  50% royalty to mod authors, when I think Extrememties sold much worse than this, if at all.

Anyone here buy it???

Most developers get closer to 37% - 45% royalty rates, why are mod authors so special with Todd?
#47 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-05-16 00:05:47
rhiggi@home.com
Ok maybe I'm just picky here.  But someone explain to me where my logic is fubar'd.  
If the patch consists of certain files, namely the Q3 application, which loads/uses maps.  Aren't you then prevented for making a map for the new "patched" executable by installing the patch?

What I'm saying is that if the patch contains the files that are actually using maps, then I believe by installing the patch you agree to no longer make maps.  They refer to  <quote> the Software </quote> in the EULA.  Well if "the software" contains the part that acually uses the maps (you cant make maps for other maps or textures, etc.) I think your still screwed.

If you load "the software" can you say you intend to make a map for a previous version of "the software" not the current version? This is a little ambiguous, ok, not a little, alot.

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "None-1a"
2000-05-16 00:10:19
none1a@home.com
[Q3F]RR2DO2 there just one thing wrong with the EULA being for the patch, it doesn't say that, rather is says that Quake3Arena is the software not Q3A Patch version 1.17.

Second how many people wanta bet that the lines partaning to creating maps is removed from the EULA for the next patch?
#49 by "Andy"
2000-05-16 00:11:00
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#44</b>, El Asso Wipo!:
<QUOTE>
For Mod Authors to make $80,000.00 on a $19.95 product that was in bargain bins within a week of it's release it mind boggling. I would challenge Todd to prove that, I find it VERY hard to swallow. I think he may have stretched the truth a bit, but the fanboys will believe it.
</QUOTE>
I think he meant that mod authors had made a <i>combined total</i> of $80,000.

If mod authors were getting a cut of 15% royalties, the collection would have needed to sell around 27,000 copies. I'll bet Extremities wasn't a huge seller, but I expect it sold better than that so $80,000 sounds possible.

But if it sold more than 27,000 copies and the $80,000 figure is accurate, that means that the total royalty cut was less than 15%. If so, that's disgraceful.
#50 by "[Q3F]RR2DO2"
2000-05-16 00:11:37
rr2do2@q3f.com http://www.q3f.com
#43

"Well no S, Sherlock. But how will this "new media" be designed if the developers don't know the ins and outs of the patch?

Oh my God...they have to reverse engineer a few things. And then you've violated g. "

Well, they could have bought retail Quake 3, or even warezed it. And are using the released tools and game source to create their derived works. So reverse engineering is not needed.

Also:

"I have BloodGasm 1.0. A patch comes out, which states that I cannot make levels for that patch. Does this mean that I cannot make levels compatible with BloodGasm 1.1 since the patch is now a part of the game as a whole? "

Now let me quote the EULA:

"BY CONTINUING THE INSTALLATION OF THIS TEST VERSION OF THE GAME PROGRAM ENTITLED QUAKE III: ARENA (THE "SOFTWARE")"

Notice that the 'software' is a test version of the game entitled Quake 3 Arena, or, in other words the 1.17 Patch. This means that RETAIL Quake 3 Arena is NOT affected by this license. So you MAY develop maps and other derived works for the RETAIL version, as the license that came with that says. So, officially, you may NOT say that you are creating maps and derived works for the patch. You're making them for the RETAIL game. Now, if id decided to release a test version of game, that just luckily happens to load your maps and derived works, YOU've not done anything wrong. Because you created the material for the RETAIL game. NOT for the patch.

- Arnout 'RR2DO2' van Meer
Q3F Development Team Member
rr2do2@q3f.com
C O M M E N T S
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