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Id Software bans Q3A mapping
May 14th 2000, 23:44 CEST by andy

Have you made any levels for Q3A recently? If so, you're in violation of the license agreement.



When you installed the latest version of the game, you probably didn't bother reading the EULA. Who does? But if you had, you'd have seen this:

2. Prohibitions. You, either directly or indirectly, shall not do any of the following acts:

[...]

m. create or develop extra or add-on levels for the Software.

So even though Id Software supplies the Q3Radiant level editor specifically for creating Q3A levels, actually using it is not allowed. Weird, huh?

Don't worry, though, this isn't as stupid as it sounds. By the looks of things, what happened is that the EULA for Q3Test was mistakenly included with the latest patch. For a start, it's dated 23 April 1999, and there are several references to the software being a compatibility test version.

That said, you are still bound by the terms of the agreement, even if it is the wrong one. And that also means, bizarrely, that you're no longer allowed to use Q3A for "recreational purposes". So quit playing it!

It only goes to show - people in general do NOT read licenses before they agree to them, otherwise we'd have heard about this before, wouldn't we?

C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "Apache"
2000-05-14 23:46:14
apache@warzone.com http://www.unrealuniverse.com
yikes, then why did they even release an SDK?
#2 by "Dethstryk"
2000-05-14 23:47:44
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>#1</b> "Apache" wrote...
<QUOTE>yikes, then why did they even release an SDK? </QUOTE>
I'm kind of curious if id Software even realizes this mistake. I doubt they read the agreements themselves. :)


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#3 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-14 23:49:56
way to read the whole post apache.  hehe.
 
 
That's been similar to the EULA on most of the quake games.  Back when we were making LMCTF, id came out with their license agreement that basically they owned every mod and map which was made, and had a whole lot of conditions on their creation and use.
 
but, it mostly comes down to cover-your-ass-ity  which most people can understand.
 
now, if they sued a gamer for making a map, then THAT would be a story.

________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#4 by "Apache"
2000-05-14 23:59:16
apache@warzone.com http://www.unrealuniverse.com
you know what's really funny? while checking out Quake III: Team Arena at e3 on Friday, a couple of the id guys (not going to name any names) were talking to us press types how the Unreal tools were hard to learn, there was 'no community' and no place to pick up skills needed to make maps and mods.

I find it hilarious that their very own EULA prevents the creation of those said add-ons they were boasting about just a couple days ago :)

/sigh
#5 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 00:12:43
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#3</b>, Bad_CRC:
<QUOTE>
That's been similar to the EULA on most of the quake games. Back when we were making LMCTF, id came out with their license agreement that basically they owned every mod and map which was made, and had a whole lot of conditions on their creation and use.
</QUOTE>
I'm a little hazy on dates here, but if this is the Q2 license you're talking about, remember how people were worried about Id releasing a shovelware collection?

At first, Id explained it by saying that the guy who had raised concerns about the EULA didn't know how to read a contract. Turned out he was a lawyer at a publishing house or something, and his interpretation of the EULA was spot-on.

Then they changed their tune and came out with something along the lines of "don't worry, you know that Id would never do something like that".

One word: Extremities.

Apparently people whose work was used on Extremities, and who received payment, had to sign a contract, part of which said that they wouldn't reveal how much they'd been paid. One person went public, claiming he'd been given $20 for a level.

To put that into perspective, most level competitions around the time were paying $2000 for each winning level. Supposedly, Id were only using the best of the best mods and levels, so the guy should have been getting around a hundred times more than he did.

The official line, if I remember correctly, was that Id was doing the community a favour by giving publicity to unknown designers. Anyone believe that? Seemed to me like they were gearing the market up for Q3A being released.

Having said all of that, though, it seems like a very different company nowadays, so don't take this as criticism of the way they are now. But the Q2 era was certainly not their finest hour.
#6 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 00:22:04
I'm not complaining.   It's their game, and I'd guess you won't find any company more generous to the "community" than id software.
 
Like I said, they have to protect themselves, part of that agreement (iirc) was that if you got sued for a level, it was your own responsibility.  So if you made a columbine high level for quake2, and somebody sued you, they couldn't sue id, or you'd have to pay for id's defense.
 
something like that.

and how things are in this country today, with everyone suing everyone else,  it makes sense to me to cover that ground.

________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#7 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 00:27:39
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#6</b>, Bad_CRC:
<QUOTE>
I'm not complaining. It's their game, and I'd guess you won't find any company more generous to the "community" than id software.
</QUOTE>
Valve? Certainly nowadays, much more so than Id.

Or what about the company who made The Sims? (Maxis?) Don't they provide lots of free downloads for people to add to the world?

But Id has given a lot, yes.
#8 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 00:37:00
I was referring more to the release of the quake (and other) sourcecode, which can even be used for commercial projects if you want...

Also the fact that they arguably invented, though unintentionally, the whole mod scene which other companies like Epic have tried to copy.
 
 
As soon as you can use the "the sims" engine to write your own gardening sim, or ctf game (grin)  then that would be similar.

________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#9 by "Seven Tacos"
2000-05-15 00:41:06
kurto@asgaard.usu.edu
I'd be surprised if people were only getting $20 for a level. I remember the guy who wrote up the eraser bot control program stated that he had been paid "generously". Of course you have to interpret what that means on your own.

It wouldn't be too much to consider that they spent approximately $40-$60k to put the product together. Which means that people could have been getting two or three thousand dollars. Yes I am pulling those numbers out of my ass, but think about the required sales to recover that expense: 10,000-15,000.
#10 by "Apache"
2000-05-15 00:47:49
apache@warzone.com http://www.unrealuniverse.com
if the person only recieved $20, the salary must of been based on the percentage of total sales, rather than a flat fee. I can't imagine id just giving the guy $20 straight up for a quality level. it boggles the mind.
#11 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 00:58:03
<b>#10</b> "Apache" wrote...
<quote> if the person only recieved $20, the salary must of been based on the percentage of total sales, rather than a flat fee. I can't imagine id just giving the guy $20 straight up for a quality level. it boggles the mind. </quote>
 
how many levels did they include?
 
it's not like they were getting any exclusive product, right?
 
it's just some guy who made a level and put it on the internet... it would be different if somebody spent a lot of time and made a level exclusively for the add-on pack.
 
But to pay a guy, even $20 for a level that anybody could just download off the internet doesn't seem unreasonable.  especially if there were 100 levels on the CD or whatever.
 
 
I'm not familiar with the extremeties pack, so I'm just talking out of my ass here like everybody else.


________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#12 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-05-15 01:28:05
rhiggi@home.com
That is kinda funny.  How well have EULA been tested in courts?  Anyone know?  I am <b> extremely </b> carefull about anything i put my sig down on, but never give those damn "do you agree to sell your sole for $1 or face market value whichever is lesser" popups a second thought.  What if i install it, then delete it, then get my buddy to install it on my machine?  Even links to info would be appreciated.

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#13 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-15 01:33:04
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#12</b> "Vengeance[CoD]" wrote...
<QUOTE>That is kinda funny. How well have EULA been tested in courts? Anyone know? I am extremely carefull about anything i put my sig down on, but never give those damn "do you agree to sell your sole for $1 or face market value whichever is lesser" popups a second thought. What if i install it, then delete it, then get my buddy to install it on my machine? Even links to info would be appreciated.

V</QUOTE>

I don't have any links but it has been shown in  both Australian and US court that plastic bag product wrapper agreements (ie the By opening this product you agree to X Y and Z) are not worth the the paper writen on ... at least if you can afford to go to trial :P and then to stick it out,<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#14 by "Serpwidgets"
2000-05-15 01:48:18
serpwidgets@hotmail.com http://people.ce.mediaone.net/serpwidgets/index.ht
<b>#4</b> "Apache" wrote...
<QUOTE>Friday, a couple of the id guys (not going to name any names) were talking to us press types how the Unreal tools were hard to learn, there was 'no community' and no place to pick up skills needed to make maps and mods.</QUOTE>

I hope you told them cocksucking liars (on all 3 counts) to fuck off and die. How disappointing that they seem to think that their Doom legacy is going to carry them through to infinity with shit products. Fuck id. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#15 by "G-Man"
2000-05-15 01:52:43
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
<b>#14</b> "Serpwidgets" wrote...
<QUOTE>I hope you told them cocksucking liars (on all 3 counts) to fuck off and die. How disappointing that they seem to think that their Doom legacy is going to carry them through to infinity with shit products. Fuck id.</QUOTE>
I agree with you in theory, though minus the vitriol. I think iD has shown a remarkable lack of ability when it comes to designing entertaining games. They are fortunately still very skilled at designing tools that can be used to create entertaining games.

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#16 by "Flamethrower"
2000-05-15 02:20:42
flamey_at_evil@hotmail.com http://flamethrower.evilavatar.com
<b>#15</b> "G-Man" wrote...
<QUOTE>I agree with you in theory, though minus the vitriol.</QUOTE>

I disagree with the theory but agree with the vitriol.
#17 by "Andy"
2000-05-15 02:35:33
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#13</b>, RahvinTaka:
<QUOTE>
I don't have any links but it has been shown in both Australian and US court that plastic bag product wrapper agreements (ie the By opening this product you agree to X Y and Z) are not worth the the paper writen on ... at least if you can afford to go to trial :P and then to stick it out,
</QUOTE>
ph34r UCITA. It's comin' ta getcha!

I'll start a thread about this if enough people want me to. I'm going to be writing something about it for another site in a few weeks, so I'd might as well do it now. But it's not really a 'hot' topic for this site because... well, because you're an apathetic bunch. :)
#18 by "McGrew"
2000-05-15 02:40:48
mcgrew@famvid.com http://TheFragfest.com
What, no cookies? Durn, gotta type that crap again...

Id doesn't seem to give a flying frag about the gamer anymore, putting antipiracy ahead of playability. Their heads seem to have swolen just a bit, but with their sales, who can blame those heads?

-steve
#19 by "McGrew"
2000-05-15 02:42:12
mcgrew@famvid.com http://TheFragfest.com
"I'll start a thread about this if enough people want me to."

Yes, please
#20 by "Sgt Hulka"
2000-05-15 03:23:37
sgt_hulka@yahoo.com http://www.hulka.com
Perhaps their afraid of PainKeep Arena showing them up!  

I guess we can quit working on it now.
#21 by "Sgt Hulka"
2000-05-15 03:24:22
sgt_hulka@yahoo.com http://www.hulka.com
They're damn it!  THEY'RE, when will I learn!!!

I'm off to read the EULA and fire off a few emails.
#22 by "Sgt Hulka"
2000-05-15 03:25:19
sgt_hulka@yahoo.com http://www.hulka.com
Oh, please check out my new Health Rider commercial, I play a scared Oriental man.

http://www.hulka.com/download/god-rider.avi

2meg AVI
#23 by "SiliconVortex"
2000-05-15 03:28:39
siliconvortex@mailandnews.com
<b>#19</b> "McGrew" wrote...
<QUOTE> "I'll start a thread about this if enough people want me to."
 
 Yes, please </QUOTE>

Uh oh.....this is gonna turn into a Me Too thread!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#24 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-05-15 03:40:48
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#17</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>
I'll start a thread about this if enough people want me to. I'm going to be writing something about it for another site in a few weeks, so I'd might as well do it now. But it's not really a 'hot' topic for this site because... well, because you're an apathetic bunch. :) </QUOTE>

Please do.

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#25 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-05-15 03:44:36
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#13</b> "RahvinTaka" wrote...
<QUOTE>
I don't have any links but it has been shown in both Australian and US court that plastic bag product wrapper agreements (ie the By opening this product you agree to X Y and Z) are not worth the the paper writen on ... at least if you can afford to go to trial :P and then to stick it out,</QUOTE>

Thats what I had heard as well.  I figured the same rules apply.  Then again its not really about whos right or wrong or what agreement you "signed".  It basically can you afford the court costs (damn i hate lawyers).  I haven't heard of one case of a EULA being enforced.

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#26 by "nb"
2000-05-15 04:17:45
nightbringer@planetquake.com
#5, andy wrote:
<quote>Apparently people whose work was used on Extremities, and who received payment, had to sign a contract, part of which said that they wouldn't reveal how much they'd been paid.</quote>
Looking over the contract, I can't see anything about that. Maybe someone got it confused with possible confidential financial information resulting from a licensor-requested audit.

WRT Extremeties (#5, #11), each contributor was paid a fixed amount of royalties on the proceeds collected.

  - nb
#27 by "Serpwidgets"
2000-05-15 04:20:37
serpwidgets@hotmail.com http://people.ce.mediaone.net/serpwidgets/index.ht
<b>#17</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>#13, RahvinTaka:


I don't have any links but it has been shown in both Australian and US court that plastic bag product wrapper agreements (ie the By opening this product you agree to X Y and Z) are not worth the the paper writen on ... at least if you can afford to go to trial :P and then to stick it out,


ph34r UCITA. It's comin' ta getcha!

I'll start a thread about this if enough people want me to. I'm going to be writing something about it for another site in a few weeks, so I'd might as well do it now. But it's not really a 'hot' topic for this site because... well, because you're an apathetic bunch. :)


<QUOTE> MEE TOO!!!!!!!!!
<QUOTE> me too please!
<QUOTE> me2
<QUOTE> yes, i agree i would like too see that thread to
<QUOTE> puhleeeeeeeeeeeeaze
<QUOTE> hi, I'm jimmy648256@aol.com. can you email me a diskette with the internet on it?
<QUOTE> jimmy, you dumy, you cant fit the internet on a disk, you have to get it on a cd now!!!!!!
<QUOTE> whats a thread and how do you start one? pleeeeeease email me at fred79784658@aol.com?
<QUOTE> ME TOO!
<QUOTE> add me to your list!
</QUOTE></QUOTE></QUOTE></QUOTE></QUOTE></QUOTE></QUOTE></QUOTE></QUOTE></QUOTE>

</QUOTE><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#28 by "None-1a"
2000-05-15 05:54:40
none1a@home.com
First off EULA's are enforcable depending on what state you happen to be living in. Each state (in the US) has different laws governing contracts (which a EULA falls under), most companies don't push it since in order to file suite they'd need to send some on to your state (or higher some one from your state) to handle the case, so unless it was a major offince that's really taking money away from the company they don't even worry about it.

About the id EULA, if id wanted to push it the courts would have to look at there actions up to that point, so for example if you made a level and under the new agreement they desided to sue the court would be forced to look at the fact that id had relesed the tools to create a level.

O Andy you want to starte a thread on EULA's try this artical out, http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/bursts/0,7407,2459882,00.html it details a new set of requirements that prevent you from commenting on the software (bugs or otherwise), or returning buggy software. It also states that the new requirement if passed would allow software companies to spy on your use of the software (and if they don't like something you not only lose the software but any work done with it). This was posted on ZDNet befroe PC came back online so you might have missed it.
#29 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 06:06:00
I wish somebody would test my EULA virus. :)
 
put up a big eula stating that you are responsible for the virus by clicking OK.
 
people are so conditioned to click ok without reading it, I'm sure it would spread fast enough.
 
and the author would not be held responsible under the EULA.
 

________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "Serpwidgets"
2000-05-15 06:18:56
serpwidgets@hotmail.com http://people.ce.mediaone.net/serpwidgets/index.ht
<b>#29</b> "Bad_CRC" wrote...
<QUOTE>I wish somebody would test my EULA virus. :)

put up a big eula stating that you are responsible for the virus by clicking OK.

people are so conditioned to click ok without reading it, I'm sure it would spread fast enough.</QUOTE>

That's funny! :)

I think they need to come up with an all-purpose "Standard EULA" which could then be amended if need be. It seems like they all pretty much say the same thing, so this would make life easier for users and publishers alike. But the thing with these EULAs is that there's hardly any point in reading it. How often is "joe keyboard" actually concerned about the likelihood of ending up in court over using any particular piece of software in any ordinary way? And even if it did end up in court, what guarantee is there that the EULA would be held up by the courts anyway?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 06:30:15
seriously though,
 
Should you REALLY need to consult your attorney before installing a piece of software?
 
What if the food industry had EULAs, "THIS APPLE IS NOT WARRANTED FOR MERCHANTIBILITY OR FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE"   If you open the wrapper, you are stuck with the apple, even if it is rotted and full of worms.
 
or any other industry...

seems like consumer rights are taking a backseat (again) to the rich software companies.


________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#32 by "Serpwidgets"
2000-05-15 07:27:18
serpwidgets@hotmail.com http://people.ce.mediaone.net/serpwidgets/index.ht
<b>#28</b> "None-1a" wrote...
<QUOTE>http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/bursts/0,7407,2459882,00.html</QUOTE>

<i>(from the article)</i>

<QUOTE>Here are just some of the examples of anti-consumer tactics deemed legal by the proposed legislation:

 Companies will be able to spy on a consumer's computer to make sure all license requirements are obeyed.

 Companies could also turn off the software without notifying the user if they believe the user violated contract provisions.

 Licensors could require that users not publicize flaws in software and that any legal actions be held in front of mediators in the jurisdiction of the company's choice.</QUOTE>

Well, if anything will destroy Microsoft's monopoly and bring a mass exodus to open-source OSes, it will be this type of legislation. Either that or it will be a cause for massive civil disobedience or huge boycotts. Any one of the 3 above listed things would be reason enough for me to never ever use that software again, or ANY software published by or in any way related to that company. I sure as hell would like to see how the companies that think this is a good idea are going to deal with cracked software. Hell, if they can crack the dongle/CD/other anti-piracy schemes, I'm sure they can crack the "EULA enforcing" code just as easily.

And just imagine this: you have a project you've been working on for the last 6 months, and your software mistakenly decides that its EULA has been violated and deletes all of your work. First of all, it would probably be pretty easy to figure out a way to fake this situation and then sue the pants off of said company. Second of all, given the bugginess of modern software, it's pretty much a given that this would happen.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#33 by "Chango"
2000-05-15 10:59:48
papa_chango@hotmail.com http://www.btinternet.com/~jedi99/
It only goes to show - people in general do NOT read licenses before they agree to them, otherwise we'd have heard about this before, wouldn't we?



I never read the EULA, but why should I have to?  I'm the consumer, which involves me going out, observing the game shelves, picking one product out of hundreds, taking it home, and then playing it.  From where I'm standing the software company should be GRATEFUL to <b>me</b> for buying their bug-riden filth in the first place.  I'll be damned if they're then going to turn round and specify the conditions to which I am ALLOWED to enjoy their product.  You don't get this kind of agreement with, say, toilet roll.  I can run around with toilet roll wrapped around my head and do rather unsavoury things with the roll-holder - and I STILL won't be in breach of the 'toilet-roll terms and conditions' - oce you've bought it, it is yours to do with as you wish.

It's the same with all the legal banter about you technically not owning the game as such, more the LICENCE.  Another issue that grinds my up.  Look, I paid for it, you're getting my money for it, it's <b>MINE</b> - and if you can't deal with that then allow me to take a running jump up your rim-swollen hoop.


grrr

-Chango
#34 by ""
2000-05-15 11:08:00
<i>Thinking...</i>
#35 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-05-15 12:12:58
Darkseid@captured.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
Incorrect Chango.

With a product,  you own it physically.

With a game, you own the media to do with as you wish, BUT, not the contents on the media. You only have a license to use that, at the owners discretion.

Much like a music cd, you dont own the music on the cd, the record label or artist own it. But you have a replay license which allows you to listen to it within certain limits.

To borrow your analogy, if the toilet paper had, oh let say, the works of Tolstoy on it. You could still wipe yer backside with it, blow your nose, eat it, flush it, wrap it round your head and re-enact a daft punk video. BUT you couldnt reproduce ANY of the writing on the toilet paper.

Now, Im not a legal expert (hah) but I was of the impression that the EULA prevented _commercial gain_ from the levels.  Feel free to make levels, just dont charge for them and you dont violate the license terms.  Think back to the Quake EULA, wasnt there a clause in there about 'networked' use where you could charge others to play, but had to give iD a cut over $3000 (mebbe was Quake2)
#36 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-05-15 12:21:27
Darkseid@captured.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
Incorrect Chango.

With a product,  you own it physically.

With a game, you own the media to do with as you wish, BUT, not the contents on the media. You only have a license to use that, at the owners discretion.

Much like a music cd, you dont own the music on the cd, the record label or artist own it. But you have a replay license which allows you to listen to it within certain limits.

Ownership of media != ownership of contents.

To borrow your analogy, if the toilet paper had, oh let say, the works of Tolstoy on it. You could still wipe yer backside with it, blow your nose, eat it, flush it, wrap it round your head and re-enact a daft punk video. BUT you couldnt reproduce ANY of the writing on the toilet paper.

Now, Im not a legal expert (hah) but I was of the impression that the EULA prevented _commercial gain_ from the levels.  Feel free to make levels, just dont charge for them and you dont violate the license terms.  Think back to the Quake EULA, wasnt there a clause in there about 'networked' use where you could charge others to play, but had to give iD a cut over $3000 (mebbe was Quake2).


Personally I hate games that force me to keep a cd in the drive. That gets on my one remaining nerve, I mean, how am I supposed to pass the time ripping a cd if I cant play UT or Q3? By all means require the cd to play 'single player' content, but if I want to fire up a botmatch or hop out on the net, the code I got with the cd should be enough -rant mode.

Oh and Hulka, just how much of Team Evolve is still working on PainKeep... and it had better not be a straight port, or Im coming to kill your biotch ass.

Ds
#37 by "Chango"
2000-05-15 12:30:04
papa_chango@hotmail.com http://www.btinternet.com/~jedi99/
Yes I know what you're saying, Ds, but the point I was making was that nobody should HAVE to scrutinise the EULA upon installing a game.  Well, not a standard consumer like myself, anyway.  The EULA holds as much power over me as the clauses on the back of an album that prohibits me from playing the music within earsot of other people; the smallprint on the back of a video that says I'm not allowed to play the video in front of my wife or family or friends, because they haven't payed for  it too.
In other words, I treat the EULA with the contempt it deserves, and I feel justified in doing so.  Like I said, I'll be damned if I'm going to pay £45 for 'the right to playback this electronic entertainment medium' - I've payed £45 to fucking play the thing, to take it round to my mates house and let him have a go, to show as many people as I possibly can how good this game is.  That has returned back to developers anyway, as the more people that see it want to buy it for themselves.

I guess it's seen as a necessary evil, what with the armies of laywers out there quick to make a fast buck, but within the realms of MY world, it means as little to me as "Free Internet Service".

-Chango
#38 by "Chango"
2000-05-15 12:41:58
papa_chango@hotmail.com http://www.btinternet.com/~jedi99/
<i>Oh and Hulka, just how much of Team Evolve is still working on PainKeep... and it had better not be a straight port, or Im coming to
                                                  kill your biotch ass. </i>

- Damn straight, Ds.  The airfist had better be in there too.

-Chango
#39 by "Desiato"
2000-05-15 13:59:00
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com
- I agree Chango and Ds.... The 'big can of beans' better have a damn good texture. I want to be able to read the nutritional content label.

Heh.

I can't wait to see it -- the screenshot of the massive pulsing (aka Startrek TNG Warp Core) column looked pretty cool. But hey, it's the gameplay that counts..

Desiato
#40 by "Chango"
2000-05-15 14:11:27
papa_chango@hotmail.com http://www.btinternet.com/~jedi99/
Are there any screengrabs of painkeep arena yet?  Hulka?  

where?
#41 by "Dethstryk"
2000-05-15 14:45:02
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>#40</b> "Chango" wrote...
<QUOTE>Are there any screengrabs of painkeep arena yet? Hulka?</QUOTE>
Being the gentle soul I am, I dug up <a href="http://www.ga-source.com/all/news/bits/04+07+2000/1:15:2.shtml">these shots</a> from GA-Source that were posted earlier this month. Enjoy. :)


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#42 by "Chango"
2000-05-15 15:01:24
papa_chango@hotmail.com http://www.btinternet.com/~jedi99/
Why thankee, Deathstryk.  I recognise those pictures!

The sound effects where what did it for me, too.
#43 by "RedLine"
2000-05-15 15:21:44
redline@omegaforge.com http://www.omegaforge.com/pod/
Without meaning to be offensive to the point of inducing fighting, <B>WTF</B> is the point of this topic ?!?!?

Ok, <B>id</B> ballsed up and included the EULA from the Q3Test games, just go e-mail them already and tell them about their mistake.  I think everyone knows that no-one reads a EULA... I mean every time you install a piece of software, it's like "Welcome to... [click] Please make sure all open programs are clo... [click] EULA - End User Licen... [click]" and so on.... at least that's what I'm like... I only actually read something on the screen after I select the "Custom" install option. ;-)

The reason you were not supposed to modify the Q3Test is because it was just that... a <B>beta test</B>... and how the heck are you supposed to test something that has been modified from the original release ???  That'd be like complaining to <B>id</B> because Mod X doesn't work... complain to the Mod X team instead....

So yeah, <B>id</B> ballsed up... let's all have a laugh at their expense... and after we've all finished being soooo superior, lets look for a subject that we can actually discuss, shall we. ;-)
#44 by "UncleJeet"
2000-05-15 16:21:35
jeet@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Just a quick thought on licenses.  I've always wondered if someone could contest a typical software license agreement based on the simple fact that you are unable to read it before purchasing, and opening, the software.  Given the fact that many places will not accept a return of opened software, this leads me to ponder the validity of "Click here to agree" or "If you use this, then you..." license agreements.  It just seems a bit nonsensical to me.  You are bound by something that you have no knowledge of until it's too late to not agree to it and decide not to purchase the product.  Just for fun, and to be a pain, I think all EULA's should be available for viewing at any store that sells the software.  Of course, this would give developers an excuse to raise prices by at least ten bucks, due to the cost involved in it.  Still, I'd pay ten bucks just to be annoying to a company.  I'm that kind of an ass.

<b>Uncle</b> <i>Click here to marry me</i> <b>Jeet</b>
#45 by "PainKilleR-[CE]"
2000-05-15 17:54:20
painkiller@planetfortress.com http://www.planetfortress.com/tftech/
<b>#8</b> "Bad_CRC" wrote...
<QUOTE>I was referring more to the release of the quake (and other) sourcecode, which can even be used for commercial projects if you want...

</QUOTE>

Although some (more specifically the TF community) could argue that the release of the source code practically ruined the Quake mod/multiplayer community with the proliferation of cheats that came about due to hacked clients ;) Yes, the release of the Quake source code was a good thing for people that want to see how to write a decent 3d fps engine (or at least how it was done several years ago) and build on that, but it caused a lot of people to leave the Quake community before they would've otherwise.

-PainKilleR-[CE]
#46 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 18:04:27
interesting point.
 
I had incorrectly assumed that had been addressed.  
 
Of course, one would still be hard pressed to attribute any bad motivations on the part of id.  And it's certainly a testament to the quality of their software if people are still using it so long after release.

________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#47 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-05-15 18:12:25
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#45</b> "PainKilleR-[CE]" wrote...
<QUOTE>
Although some (more specifically the TF community) could argue that the release of the source code practically ruined the Quake mod/multiplayer community ....

-PainKilleR-[CE] </QUOTE>

Preach on.  I stoped playing TF about 1 month ago.  I just got sick of all the blatant cheating.  I bought Q2, makes a pretty good paper weight.  Thank goodness someone made a Fortress version for Quake 3, even if it still needs a little work on balancing.  Stoped playing UT for the same reason.  Every time I would get on a assault server someone would finish the level in less time than it would take me to run that entire distance assuming there were no enemies or obsticles in my way.  The good news is that after leaving TF broken hearted I started playing Counter Strike.  I still miss TF, haven't found a gaming experience like that since (even though I really like CS).

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by ""
2000-05-15 18:23:01
<i>Thinking...</i>
#49 by "stanton"
2000-05-15 18:26:18
Speaking of the Extremeties pack, some of the peole who had their maps put on the CD didn't get any money at all.  Instead they just got an autographed poster and a free copy of the add on.  Pretty lame, huh?
#50 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-15 18:36:33
I don't know what people's problems with Q3F are.   I think it's great, and right now it's the only game out there that can pry me away from tribes.


<b>#49</b> "stanton" wrote...
<quote> Speaking of the Extremeties pack, some of the peole who had their maps put on the CD didn't get any money at all.  Instead they just got an autographed poster and a free copy of the add on.  Pretty lame, huh? </quote>
 
why?
 
I'd take a free copy of an extension pack in exchange for something I was giving to everyone else for free.

When I used to write shareware, it was fairly standard practice that whenever one of my programs was included on the coverdisk of a magazine, they would simply send me a gratis copy of that issue.

I was happy, they were happy, case closed.

________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
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